AR15.Com Archives
 Range Report: 5.45 and 7.62 vs. Cinder Blocks/Bricks, updated 05/09/09 w/ new test
rube79  [Member]
2/21/2009 9:42:19 PM EST
A friend and I did a little shooting around today. We decided to buy a few half cinder blocks and various bricks. Let the shooting begin

Rifles Used: Tantal (5.45), AKS-74U and NHM-91.


Ammo: Bulgy 5.45 surplus and 7.62x39 Barnaul 123gr FMJ

Distance: 18 yards

The setup - 4 half cinder blocks 3/4" apart




Tantal 5.45
Entrance


Inside Entrance


Exit


Bullet Recovery



NHM91 w/ Barnaul

Entrance


Inside pic of 2nd wall of the half



NHM91 w/ Barnaul vs Concrete Brick


Tantal vs Concrete Brick (Left)


Setup for Red Brick


Tantal vs Red Brick


NHM91 vs Red Brick


AKS-74U vs Cinder Block

Entrance


Inside Entrance


Exit w/ recovered bullet



Angled half Cinder blocks..... Left = NHM91 7.62 and Right = 5.45 Tantal


Tantal 5.45 Angled


NHM91 7.62 Angled



Both rounds ONLY penetrated 1 Cinder Block and did not even make a scuff on the next block. We were only able to recover 5.45 bullets, we could not find a trace of 7.62.

The 7.62 threw chunks of the concrete brick for about 10ft. The 5.45 did the same damage, but less kinetic energy was displayed.

The 7.62 did crack the brick behind it, the 5.45 did not. The 5.45 did make a hell of a key hole mark on the next red brick though.

The MYTH was that "7.62x39 would go thru Cinder BLOCKS and house after house". After this display of 7.62 commerical ammo, i'm doubting that.

Tomorrow, we will test Chinese Steel Core 7.62x39 again the Cinder Blocks.

Question: Do ya'll think that we should try a different brand of 7.62x39 out or even non corrosive 5.45?

Thanks
Rube
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iamg0ku  [Member]
2/21/2009 9:46:41 PM EST
I call BS!!! Everybody knows that the 7.62 x 39 will penetrate AT LEAST 5 cinder blocks and still kill a tank on the other side!



























Combat_Jack  [Team Member]
2/21/2009 11:37:20 PM EST
Fun, but you really need to have them laid together with mortar to se how they will behave. When shot while under compression they behave a bit differently.
LtDirector  [Team Member]
2/22/2009 1:09:36 AM EST
as much as I love 5.45, this isn't a fair comparison. You're shooting shit 2nd grade commercial 7.62, and shooting hotter, steal core 1st grade military production 5.45. Cool results, but I'm really looking forward to the Norinco steelcore. I am anxiously awaiting the next batch

I suspect commercial 5.45 won't fair as well, though to be fair, both should be military ammo, and preferably both steelcore, or both lead.
Chris_1522  [Team Member]
2/22/2009 3:39:16 AM EST
Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Fun, but you really need to have them laid together with mortar to se how they will behave. When shot while under compression they behave a bit differently.


Agreed. When they're part of a wall, they absolutely cannot move upon impact. This MAY change the way they behave when struck.

I definately applaud the effort and expense, though, and thank the OP for his time.


rube79  [Member]
2/22/2009 5:52:46 AM EST
Originally Posted By Chris_1522:
Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Fun, but you really need to have them laid together with mortar to se how they will behave. When shot while under compression they behave a bit differently.


Agreed. When they're part of a wall, they absolutely cannot move upon impact. This MAY change the way they behave when struck.

I definately applaud the effort and expense, though, and thank the OP for his time.




Thanks for the idea gentlemen. We will have to wait until next weekend, so that the mortar can dry/harden. This will be pretty damn fun.

LtDirector, we have the good stuff sir and we will add commercial 5.45 today too.

thx
Rube
iamg0ku  [Member]
2/22/2009 5:58:10 AM EST
I'd just like to include some pics of the "red headed step child" of the bunch
For some reason, she didn't get to take part in the brick busting fun.




After a quick sight in, it was bench warming time



P229SAS  [Team Member]
2/22/2009 5:59:50 AM EST
I think you should have put a sand bag on top of the blocks to at least simulate them being held together as if in a structure if you can't use mortar which would be the most realistic. If they are "loose" they will move with the impact the instant they are hit and change the outcome than if you were shooting an actual barrier.

Still, even if one bullet only obliterates one brick, a 30 round mag on full auto would obviously make quick work of many obstacles unless the ultimate bullet stopper, sand is used.
broke_again  [Team Member]
2/22/2009 6:09:28 AM EST
Any chance of throwing some 7.62 x 51 into the mix?
VA-gunnut  [Site Staff]
2/22/2009 6:15:07 AM EST
tagscribe.
iamg0ku  [Member]
2/22/2009 6:21:05 AM EST
Well I would have loved to try some 762 x 54r, but both of my PSL's are in various stages of build/rebuild. That would have been awesome, and I think we will have to schedule a test to "break in" the newly completed rifles.
1saxman  [Member]
2/22/2009 7:05:42 AM EST
Looks like a fun way to 'make little ones out of big ones':)
When you try the PSL, you'll probably have trouble finding the block fragments.
gewamser  [Member]
2/22/2009 7:36:36 AM EST
Fun, but if you had the oppurtunity to build any bunkers or fortifications in the military, you would learn that when useing concrete blocks, you fill the holes inside with sand and rebar to make them more resisitant to penetration, then if possible, pile sandbags around the outside. If you really want to see what a round will do...try .308 or better yet black tipped AP 30'06...the Chinese steel cored 7.62x 39 should also devistate and blocks you put up. A better test would be to set up a junk engine block, and test them all...you'll be surprised. Remember most of the AK-AR type rifles are for really short range, out in the open or down a long street in urban brickwork, few rounds beat a .308... not well known but, the fire the Brits and the Argentines put down on one another in the Falklands with their FAL's caused horrendous devestating wounds and that was with simple ball ammo.
Oneiros  [Member]
2/22/2009 10:47:09 AM EST
Originally Posted By LtDirector:
as much as I love 5.45, this isn't a fair comparison. You're shooting shit 2nd grade commercial 7.62, and shooting hotter, steal core 1st grade military production 5.45. Cool results, but I'm really looking forward to the Norinco steelcore. I am anxiously awaiting the next batch

I suspect commercial 5.45 won't fair as well, though to be fair, both should be military ammo, and preferably both steelcore, or both lead.


Where the hell do rumors like these start?

No military 7.62x39mm or 5.45x39mm was ever steel core unless it was specifically made as armor piercing (and never imported into the us).

The chicom copper washed 7.62x39mm IS NOT armor piercing. It has a MILD steel core because the chinese are cheapasses, nothing more. Chicom 7.62x39mm won't penetrate any more than regular 7.62x39mm.
1saxman  [Member]
2/22/2009 1:10:45 PM EST
Originally Posted By Oneiros:
Originally Posted By LtDirector:
as much as I love 5.45, this isn't a fair comparison. You're shooting shit 2nd grade commercial 7.62, and shooting hotter, steal core 1st grade military production 5.45. Cool results, but I'm really looking forward to the Norinco steelcore. I am anxiously awaiting the next batch

I suspect commercial 5.45 won't fair as well, though to be fair, both should be military ammo, and preferably both steelcore, or both lead.


Where the hell do rumors like these start?

No military 7.62x39mm or 5.45x39mm was ever steel core unless it was specifically made as armor piercing (and never imported into the us).

The chicom copper washed 7.62x39mm IS NOT armor piercing. It has a MILD steel core because the chinese are cheapasses, nothing more. Chicom 7.62x39mm won't penetrate any more than regular 7.62x39mm.


So you're saying that the steel-core Chinese available here in the early '90s was not military surplus?

LtDirector  [Team Member]
2/22/2009 1:13:41 PM EST
Originally Posted By Oneiros:
Originally Posted By LtDirector:
as much as I love 5.45, this isn't a fair comparison. You're shooting shit 2nd grade commercial 7.62, and shooting hotter, steal core 1st grade military production 5.45. Cool results, but I'm really looking forward to the Norinco steelcore. I am anxiously awaiting the next batch

I suspect commercial 5.45 won't fair as well, though to be fair, both should be military ammo, and preferably both steelcore, or both lead.


Where the hell do rumors like these start?

No military 7.62x39mm or 5.45x39mm was ever steel core unless it was specifically made as armor piercing (and never imported into the us).

The chicom copper washed 7.62x39mm IS NOT armor piercing. It has a MILD steel core because the chinese are cheapasses, nothing more. Chicom 7.62x39mm won't penetrate any more than regular 7.62x39mm.




Where did I say it was armor piercing? But steel core will preform better against hard targets. If you'd like, we can place a friendly wager on that

If I may be so bold, you're also completely wrong. Military 5.45 is nearly ALL steelcore.

I never said all military surplus was steel core, however, I said much of the Norinco was, so keep a fair test, both need to be. So when you decide to read my post instead of coming up with your own, please do get back to me

aceduece  [Member]
2/22/2009 1:20:52 PM EST
Why 18 yard? Shooting at 10-20 yards is pistol range and a little too close. Why not longer distance? I would try 30 and 50 yards shots at the cinder blocks. Just my opinon.
rube79  [Member]
2/22/2009 1:47:50 PM EST
We made it back out there today!!! Stop by Home Depot for some cinder blocks, then Acedemy for some ammo. Bad news though We forgot to test the 5.45 monarch we bought at acedemy. WTF, i blame that ass i shot with. No biggie, i will probably add that in next week sometime. Neither of us shoot or own noncorrosive 5.45, it kinda slipped our minds.

Rifles and Pistols Used today

Same as Yesterday but we added .44 Desert Eagle, XD 9 and Glock 17


Range: 18 yards, verified w/ a Bushnell range finder.

The Setup - 3 half cinder blocks 3/4" apart, a half cinder block on the first two cinder blocks w/ 80lbs of weights on them.



7.62 Barnaul w/ NHM91

Entrance


Inside Entrance


Exit


2nd Cinder block



5.45 Surplus w/ Tantal

Entrance


Inside Entrance (look closely and you will see the 5.45's metal jacket)


Exit


2nd Cinder Block



7.62 steel core Head stamp 71/93 w/ NHM91

Entrance


Inside Entrance


2nd Cinder Block Exit, thru 1st wall


Exit of 1st Cinder block and Entrance of 2nd Cinder block, Steel core and jacket recovered



Old setup for Steel Core 7.62 - 3 Half Cinder blocks 3/4" apart

Entrance/ blown up cinder block


2nd Cinder block w/ recovered steel core




DE in Action



Some aftermath, but this was nearly leveled after Mike enjoyed his tantal.


We had a blast and realized that a 9mm should NEVER be fired at a cinder block... We shot from 18 yrds away, the bullets were coming 15 yrds back to us We both were using eye protection by this time, but never realized this until the shooting was over.

By adding weight the results were changed, but not significant imo. The 5.45 surplus did out perform the 7.62 barnaul in the new test. The 7.62 steel core was fun to shoot and produced outstanding results. I honestly thought the 7.62 SC would go thru 2 cinder blocks, but results were 1.5 cinder blocks. The 5.45 surplus w/ weight = 7.62 Steel C w/o weight test. Later tonight i may add results in a better format. Opinions are welcome!!

thank ya'll
rube
rube79  [Member]
2/22/2009 2:02:05 PM EST
Originally Posted By aceduece:
Why 18 yard? Shooting at 10-20 yards is pistol range and a little too close. Why not longer distance? I would try 30 and 50 yards shots at the cinder blocks. Just my opinon.


We used our setup position for 25 yrds sight ins. It just came up to 18 yrd I can shoot my tantal from 50 yards w/o a problem; but for a good shot w/ irons on a NHM91 we required a closer range.

The steel core used in today's test was Norinco. Very nice stuff btw.

I dont own a 7.62x51 / 308 yet, but we did these test for another reason. We both wanted to know if commerical 7.62x39 would go thru more than 1 cinder block. My guess was 2, i was WRONG.

We used the NHM91 for the 20" barrel and the Tantal for the 17" barrel. Other AKs will be tested on a later date, but these would have the better velocities (i think that is spelled correctly)

Thanks
Rube
LtDirector  [Team Member]
2/22/2009 2:04:34 PM EST
Originally Posted By rube79:

thank ya'll
rube



I'm not surprised the Norinco did better. Cool pics and results, thanks for this!
Oneiros  [Member]
2/22/2009 2:17:55 PM EST
Originally Posted By LtDirector:
Originally Posted By Oneiros:
Originally Posted By LtDirector:
as much as I love 5.45, this isn't a fair comparison. You're shooting shit 2nd grade commercial 7.62, and shooting hotter, steal core 1st grade military production 5.45. Cool results, but I'm really looking forward to the Norinco steelcore. I am anxiously awaiting the next batch

I suspect commercial 5.45 won't fair as well, though to be fair, both should be military ammo, and preferably both steelcore, or both lead.


Where the hell do rumors like these start?

No military 7.62x39mm or 5.45x39mm was ever steel core unless it was specifically made as armor piercing (and never imported into the us).

The chicom copper washed 7.62x39mm IS NOT armor piercing. It has a MILD steel core because the chinese are cheapasses, nothing more. Chicom 7.62x39mm won't penetrate any more than regular 7.62x39mm.




Where did I say it was armor piercing? But steel core will preform better against hard targets. If you'd like, we can place a friendly wager on that

If I may be so bold, you're also completely wrong. Military 5.45 is nearly ALL steelcore.

I never said all military surplus was steel core, however, I said much of the Norinco was, so keep a fair test, both need to be. So when you decide to read my post instead of coming up with your own, please do get back to me



So all 5.45 military is steel core, except all of the 5.45 military surplus in the US? Yeah, guess I don't get your point..

And no, I wasn't saying the chicom stuff wasn't military surplus.
MudBug  [Team Member]
2/22/2009 2:21:42 PM EST
5.56x45 on the left, 5.45x39 on the right, and 7.62x39 right in the center.


LtDirector  [Team Member]
2/22/2009 2:29:09 PM EST
Originally Posted By Oneiros:
Originally Posted By LtDirector:
Originally Posted By Oneiros:
Originally Posted By LtDirector:
as much as I love 5.45, this isn't a fair comparison. You're shooting shit 2nd grade commercial 7.62, and shooting hotter, steal core 1st grade military production 5.45. Cool results, but I'm really looking forward to the Norinco steelcore. I am anxiously awaiting the next batch

I suspect commercial 5.45 won't fair as well, though to be fair, both should be military ammo, and preferably both steelcore, or both lead.


Where the hell do rumors like these start?

No military 7.62x39mm or 5.45x39mm was ever steel core unless it was specifically made as armor piercing (and never imported into the us).

The chicom copper washed 7.62x39mm IS NOT armor piercing. It has a MILD steel core because the chinese are cheapasses, nothing more. Chicom 7.62x39mm won't penetrate any more than regular 7.62x39mm.




Where did I say it was armor piercing? But steel core will preform better against hard targets. If you'd like, we can place a friendly wager on that

If I may be so bold, you're also completely wrong. Military 5.45 is nearly ALL steelcore.

I never said all military surplus was steel core, however, I said much of the Norinco was, so keep a fair test, both need to be. So when you decide to read my post instead of coming up with your own, please do get back to me



So all 5.45 military is steel core, except all of the 5.45 military surplus in the US? Yeah, guess I don't get your point..

And no, I wasn't saying the chicom stuff wasn't military surplus.



Ok, you should really stop before you make yourself look ignorant. I'm going to post the very first link I found when I typed 5.45 into google.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=123138770

Hmm, what if I choose the second?

http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=122703239

Now, maybe there is some type of military surplus 5.45 that isn't steelcore out there. I haven't seen any of it. If there is, it's probably late batch Russian. Eitherway, I suggest doing some research before making posts.
iamg0ku  [Member]
2/22/2009 2:34:29 PM EST
I for one would rather not see this thread become a pissing contest, but I own a good bit of Russian and Bulgarian 5.45 x 39, and every last round is steel core (not armor piercing )
rube79  [Member]
2/22/2009 2:41:52 PM EST
Originally Posted By MudBug:
5.56x45 on the left, 5.45x39 on the right, and 7.62x39 right in the center.


http://www.goobage.com/pics/training/ak101_005.jpg


Thats a great example of a flawed test. The 5.56 and 5.45 cinder blocks are shown w/ holes at the center support. The 7.62's cinder block has cinder blocks already broken behind it. Not a good comparison, imo.

Romanian and Russian I have seen pix of Wolf 5.45 in military stockpiles pretty recently. When i hear a person say military 5.45 ammo, i think surplus and steel core.

MudBug  [Team Member]
2/22/2009 4:35:10 PM EST
Originally Posted By rube79:
Originally Posted By MudBug:
5.56x45 on the left, 5.45x39 on the right, and 7.62x39 right in the center.


http://www.goobage.com/pics/training/ak101_005.jpg


Thats a great example of a flawed test. The 5.56 and 5.45 cinder blocks are shown w/ holes at the center support. The 7.62's cinder block has cinder blocks already broken behind it. Not a good comparison, imo.

Romanian and Russian I have seen pix of Wolf 5.45 in military stockpiles pretty recently. When i hear a person say military 5.45 ammo, i think surplus and steel core.




Actually, we aimed dead center of every block, but you are correct, it is not a scientific test and I don't think it was meant to be. It was just a demonstration that the instructor set up during an AK class. We had all 3 calibers represented by students, I just happened to be the guy shooting a Polish underfolder in 7.62 commie.
dpmmn  [Moderator]
2/22/2009 5:37:41 PM EST
Thanks for the Range Report and pics
suprshootr  [Member]
2/22/2009 8:45:05 PM EST
Awesome test. Keep them coming if you can.
rube79  [Member]
2/23/2009 5:37:44 AM EST
Originally Posted By MudBug:
Originally Posted By rube79:
Originally Posted By MudBug:
5.56x45 on the left, 5.45x39 on the right, and 7.62x39 right in the center.


http://www.goobage.com/pics/training/ak101_005.jpg


Thats a great example of a flawed test. The 5.56 and 5.45 cinder blocks are shown w/ holes at the center support. The 7.62's cinder block has cinder blocks already broken behind it. Not a good comparison, imo.

Romanian and Russian I have seen pix of Wolf 5.45 in military stockpiles pretty recently. When i hear a person say military 5.45 ammo, i think surplus and steel core.




Actually, we aimed dead center of every block, but you are correct, it is not a scientific test and I don't think it was meant to be. It was just a demonstration that the instructor set up during an AK class. We had all 3 calibers represented by students, I just happened to be the guy shooting a Polish underfolder in 7.62 commie.


I wish we would have took a pic of the blocks being shot like ya'll did. The 5.45 did some nice penetration, but didn't blow up the cinder blocks like the 7.62 barnaul and steel core did. The .44 mag (240gr) was the only other rd shot that blew up a cinder block. We used 225gr hornady that only would knock big holes in the cinder blocks.

If i can find the time, we may use some Softcore and HP comparison in 7.62.

Thanks all
rube
dfariswheel  [Member]
2/23/2009 5:44:12 AM EST
Here's a sectioned Polish surplus 5.45X39 7N6-PS bullet.
I've sectioned 7N6-PS from Bulgaria and Russia and they have the same core.

Note the steel outer jacket, the MILD steel blunt ended core, the lead cap on top, and the air space in the nose.

Armor piercing bullets have a sharply pointed very hard steel or tungsten core to penetrate thin armor.
The 5.45X39 7N6-PS core is soft steel and blunt. Therefore, while it's steel core, it's not armor piercing:

aceduece  [Member]
2/24/2009 2:41:39 AM EST
here is a video of .556/7.56/etc.....cinder block test.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVQPBmhpI-Y
Chris_1522  [Team Member]
2/24/2009 4:15:27 AM EST
Originally Posted By Oneiros:

So all 5.45 military is steel core, except all of the 5.45 military surplus in the US? Yeah, guess I don't get your point..

And no, I wasn't saying the chicom stuff wasn't military surplus.




Where are you getting this?

All of the mil surp 5.45 in country (and all military 5.45 that I'm aware of) is steel core.
POLYTHENEPAM  [Member]
2/24/2009 5:37:25 AM EST
Originally Posted By Oneiros:
Where the hell do rumors like these start?

No military 7.62x39mm or 5.45x39mm was ever steel core unless it was specifically made as armor piercing (and never imported into the us).

The chicom copper washed 7.62x39mm IS NOT armor piercing. It has a MILD steel core because the chinese are cheapasses, nothing more. Chicom 7.62x39mm won't penetrate any more than regular 7.62x39mm.


I love it when someone who has obviously never fired steel core ammunition at anything in a side by side comparison tells us about its penetration.
I'm also amused when someone tells us why the Chinese used steel cores in the bullets. Can you supply us with the Chinese cost of production of a ton of lead and the Chinese cost of production of a ton of steel for any year since 1949?
If not, perhaps you'd like to ponder this question: If you don't know those figures, how do you know the Chinese used steel core bullets because those bullets were cheaper?

Rube: Thanks for the test results. I've got some 1/2" mild steel I'm going to shoot at when (if) it warms up.

rube79  [Member]
2/24/2009 6:10:11 AM EST
Originally Posted By POLYTHENEPAM:
Originally Posted By Oneiros:
Where the hell do rumors like these start?

No military 7.62x39mm or 5.45x39mm was ever steel core unless it was specifically made as armor piercing (and never imported into the us).

The chicom copper washed 7.62x39mm IS NOT armor piercing. It has a MILD steel core because the chinese are cheapasses, nothing more. Chicom 7.62x39mm won't penetrate any more than regular 7.62x39mm.


I love it when someone who has obviously never fired steel core ammunition at anything in a side by side comparison tells us about its penetration.
I'm also amused when someone tells us why the Chinese used steel cores in the bullets. Can you supply us with the Chinese cost of production of a ton of lead and the Chinese cost of production of a ton of steel for any year since 1949?
If not, perhaps you'd like to ponder this question: If you don't know those figures, how do you know the Chinese used steel core bullets because those bullets were cheaper?

Rube: Thanks for the test results. I've got some 1/2" mild steel I'm going to shoot at when (if) it warms up.



No, Thank you sir

I saw a while back that you wanted to test 1/2" mild steel in the ammo section. I'm glad i haven't missed out on those results. We shot one cast iron wt plate and the 5.45 nearly penetrated it. That same shot did send a very very small piece of cast iron back at Mike, he was standing 35 yds away (wearing glasses and ear protection). Needless to say, we didnt shoot the wts again. Mild Steel wouldn't come back at us, but its been hell finding it!!!
Come to think of it, another reason we did test was from shooting 3/8" swinging mild steel. The 5.45 surplus was penetrating further (nearly all the way thru) than the commercial 7.62 Barnaul.

The vid of the guy shooting the cinder blocks @ that range is @18 yrds our 9mm was coming within 3 yrds of us. I wouldnt trust my 9mm to penetrate a cinder block from beyond a few feet.

If prices every come back down, we are going to compare a few different types of commercial 7.62 . I'm still amazed the Barnaul didnt even scuff the 2nd cinder block. We were thinking of maybe adding something like a phone book or 2x4 behind the 1st cinder block. Maybe that would give us a better idea of how much energy is left.

Thanks
Rube
POLYTHENEPAM  [Member]
2/24/2009 6:31:16 AM EST
If the Barnaul has the bullet with the empty tip, you might try some Black Box Wolf that doesn't use that bullet, if you're inclined to continue testing for penetration.
The empty tip bullet seems to deform more extensively when it strikes a hard target. It makes sense that more deformation would result in less penetration, but I haven't actually tested the hypothesis yet.
rube79  [Member]
2/24/2009 6:57:18 AM EST
Originally Posted By POLYTHENEPAM:
If the Barnaul has the bullet with the empty tip, you might try some Black Box Wolf that doesn't use that bullet, if you're inclined to continue testing for penetration.
The empty tip bullet seems to deform more extensively when it strikes a hard target. It makes sense that more deformation would result in less penetration, but I haven't actually tested the hypothesis yet.


I was thinking the same thing, but this Barnaul is full Lead (not empty tip). We were thinking of using GT for a comparison, because i know it has the empty tip. If i had to guess, the GT would penetrate the same (1 cinder block) but have less energy after that 1st block. Your hypothesis is correct i bet, but just difficult to prove w/ our original test. The energy these 7.62 rds was amazing, thus i have mainly been shooting 5.45 for the last few months.

The Steel core of the 7.62 had signs of it spinning( i cant think of the right word) and less deformation when it was shot thru the weighted cinder blocks. Less deformation more penetration
rube79  [Member]
5/9/2009 9:59:28 PM EST
Today, Sat 5/09/09...... Mike and I had a little spare time after sighting our rifles in.

Range: 6-7 yards
Rifles: Tantal 5.45 using Bulgy Surplus and Romy Home Build using 123gr FMJ 7.62x39 (16inch barrel)


The Setup 1/2 drywall and plywood w/ a house brick in b/t the wall.









Made the shot center mass, the round did NOT go thru the plywood.... The brick BLEW up and some did come back

Lets get this right.... 7.62x39 123gr Silver bear in a 16" barrel AK was shot 7 yards way.. Went thru the drywall and blewup the brick; but did not penetrate any further.....

We decided to try out a block, thats made of the same material as a cinderblock. It measured out to be 2 2/5 inches thick.







Brick was above the brick pictured.




Same results, but the wood did crack a little in the plywood this time.



Same Setup, but w/ the Tantal







We did this 2 x a piece and the results were the same. The tantal would penetrate, but the x39 would not. We were going to use 123gr HP x39 silverbear, but if the FMJ wouldnt penetrate.....

We both were a little shocked that the 5.45 did so well in this field test, but the test did display that the x39 has great energy and less penetration.


I believe that the 5.45 would have penetrated less if it went thru the drywall then the plywood before the brick. We emptied the magazine into the wall after shooting the bricks and were amazed to find lots of keyholes in the plywood.. I forgot to take a pic

Many people have been claiming some 308 penetration w/ the x39 for Home defense. Please give us your opinion on this test..

Poly, we ran out of time to test the Cinderblocks today. But we will test the different x39 ammo soon and use a catch.

Thx again
Rube
POLYTHENEPAM  [Member]
5/10/2009 3:14:51 AM EST
Originally Posted By rube79:
We did this 2 x a piece and the results were the same. The tantal would penetrate, but the x39 would not. We were going to use 123gr HP x39 silverbear, but if the FMJ wouldnt penetrate.....

We both were a little shocked that the 5.45 did so well in this field test, but the test did display that the x39 has great energy and less penetration.


I believe that the 5.45 would have penetrated less if it went thru the drywall then the plywood before the brick. We emptied the magazine into the wall after shooting the bricks and were amazed to find lots of keyholes in the plywood.


The steel core makes all the difference. I'll take a guess and say the 7.62 bullets split the jacket and flattened some which reduces penetration.
The 5.45 bullet worked as designed - yawing quickly when it encountered resistance, which caused the keyholes.
Thanks for the test.

And I see that you've also proved that it's not necessary to wear fatigues to run a penetration test, despite the belief of some people.
R0N  [Team Member]
5/10/2009 3:33:32 AM EST
Originally Posted By P229SAS:
I think you should have put a sand bag on top of the blocks to at least simulate them being held together as if in a structure if you can't use mortar which would be the most realistic. If they are "loose" they will move with the impact the instant they are hit and change the outcome than if you were shooting an actual barrier.

Still, even if one bullet only obliterates one brick, a 30 round mag on full auto would obviously make quick work of many obstacles unless the ultimate bullet stopper, sand is used.


There are some good training products out there now in regards to penetration on buildings. In the 90s they did some work and it was based on US building standards, problem is middle eastern countries have buildings made of much harder substances, so they redid much of it in AFG to show what protection is afforded by what.
rube79  [Member]
5/10/2009 7:22:54 AM EST
Originally Posted By POLYTHENEPAM:
Originally Posted By rube79:
We did this 2 x a piece and the results were the same. The tantal would penetrate, but the x39 would not. We were going to use 123gr HP x39 silverbear, but if the FMJ wouldnt penetrate.....
.


The steel core makes all the difference. I'll take a guess and say the 7.62 bullets split the jacket and flattened some which reduces penetration.
The 5.45 bullet worked as designed - yawing quickly when it encountered resistance, which caused the keyholes.
Thanks for the test.

And I see that you've also proved that it's not necessary to wear fatigues to run a penetration test, despite the belief of some people.


On the money, that brick absorbed a lot of energy. I know that the chinese steel core would have penetrated easily, but i was very curious about commercial rounds.

I didnt even know that Mike took a pic of me using his rifle. That FSC-47 does reduce muzzle climb and recoil somewhat, but DAMN its LOUD

That same day, i shot many 1" and under 5 shot groups w/ my tantal @ 50 yards We were sighting in Mike's new Romy build until the damn scope mount broke...But thats another story.
iamg0ku  [Member]
5/10/2009 8:01:37 AM EST
Originally Posted By rube79:
Originally Posted By POLYTHENEPAM:
Originally Posted By rube79:
We did this 2 x a piece and the results were the same. The tantal would penetrate, but the x39 would not. We were going to use 123gr HP x39 silverbear, but if the FMJ wouldnt penetrate.....
.


The steel core makes all the difference. I'll take a guess and say the 7.62 bullets split the jacket and flattened some which reduces penetration.
The 5.45 bullet worked as designed - yawing quickly when it encountered resistance, which caused the keyholes.
Thanks for the test.

And I see that you've also proved that it's not necessary to wear fatigues to run a penetration test, despite the belief of some people.


On the money, that brick absorbed a lot of energy. I know that the chinese steel core would have penetrated easily, but i was very curious about commercial rounds.

I didnt even know that Mike took a pic of me using his rifle. That FSC-47 does reduce muzzle climb and recoil somewhat, but DAMN its LOUD

That same day, i shot many 1" and under 5 shot groups w/ my tantal @ 50 yards We were sighting in Mike's new Romy build until the damn scope mount broke...But thats another story.


Yes I had a pretty dissapointing weekend for the most part. But damn! Betty is lookin good huh?
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