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 Ciener. 22 AR-15 kit question
SureShot1313  [Member]
1/2/2012 3:16:43 PM EST
i just bought a Ciener .22 AR-15 kit, of EE and i tested it out today. cycles all ten rounds no problem, till i went to reload and saw a .22 casing got stuck in between the bolt and the frameof the bolt. i dont know what round this happens with, im guessing it the last round. it fires great, very smooth, but sense it does not lock the bolt open when the mag is empty is it causing an empty case to get jammed up there ? it happen with both mags, with 2 different types of ammo. fed. and rem. i didnt not fire more than one mag each. ran out of day light. will test more another day.

i have a dedicated .22 upper and never had had a problem like this...

any thought?

thanks.
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Circuits  [Team Member]
1/2/2012 6:14:22 PM EST
Originally Posted By SureShot1313:
a .22 casing got stuck in between the bolt and the frameof the bolt.


Take a picture, or find one on the web, and highlight where/how the round got stuck - I can't visualize your malfunction to help you from the description above.
SureShot1313  [Member]
1/2/2012 6:31:11 PM EST


just like that, but obviously an empty case. take the bullet away and that is about the correct placement of the jam
Circuits  [Team Member]
1/2/2012 9:13:59 PM EST
It's an issue with the empty hitting the follower or feedlips of the magazine instead of the ejector, or slipping out of the extractor, so it gets kicked up, instead of out.

Fixed by a CMMG enhanced .22 charging handle, which doesn't have a gas tube channel forming a big empty cavity for the 22 empties to get stuck in. Can also be addressed by fixing the magazine presentation by tightening the mag catch one more turn, or extractor fixes, and some other, more advanced stuff if those fixes don't work.
Dano523  [Moderator]
1/3/2012 12:23:12 AM EST
The Ciener kit is not all that bad, but does need a few areas of attention.

First off, you really need to polish the guide and rails. Yes if you keep it wet it helps somewhat, but the bolt really need to glide on the rails. Springs and other mods are listed in the below link as well.
http://home.netcom.com/~uzisubgun/id3.html

Next is lock up so the bolt does want to stay closed a tad longer to allow the round to build up a tad more pressure to push the bolt all the way back. Granted that this mod is more of an anti rebound mod, it does help to keep the bolt forward just a tad longer as well. since the ball bearing is helping to keep the bolt forward, then a lighter recoil spring can be used as well (opens the kit up for a more range of ammo as well).
http://209.251.48.101/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=15&t=241654

Next is how well does the adapter fit into your chamber? If there is slop between the adapter and the chamber, then some of the ammo rearward pressure is lost to push the bolt back with full pressure. Although not cheap (if you are buying such, instead of just mod'g your parts), the enhanced lock up adapter does cure this problem.
http://cmmginc.secure-mall.com/item/SST-Enhanced-.22-LR-Chamber-Lock-1756

Lastly, it comes down to the spend case clearing the ejection port correctly, and not knowing what condition your extractor is in, might just want to change if from the start.
http://blackdogmachinellc.net/ciener-extractor.aspx

If the ejector is just new, then it and it's bolt channel may need to be polished instead.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_15/395579_tuning_extractor_on_a_ciener_and_some_other_questions.html

As for the ejector tab on the rail, as the case hits it, the case need to roll off the surface, not gouged by a sharp edges on the ejector tab flat. So that note, take a look at the rail to see the condition/edges of the ejector tab and if the need to be smoothed. Also remember that that is a correlation of the ejector tab surface to the extractor hook, Being that the face angle of the ejector tab on the rail is going to dictate the direction of the spent brass off the ejector. If the brass is being thrown too high upwards against the top of the ejection port, then the brass is contacting the ejector on the bottom of the tab surface mostly. If the brass is being thrown downward into the bottom of the ejector port window, then the brass is contracting the tab mostly at the top.



Bottom line, for semi only, a couple of the things above may not be needed, but if you just take the time to do what you can listed above (including what Circuits suggested about tightening the mag catch), should be able to work out the problems with the kit.
Dano523  [Moderator]
1/3/2012 12:29:27 AM EST
To add: remember that you are running lead bullets down a ported barrel, and after time, the lead is going to be shaved into the barrel gas port and FSB passage, blocking that part of the gas system.

So on that note, if you are going to be using the rifle for both 223 and 22lr, just remember that there is lead fouling going on within the gas passages that may need to be cleaned from time to time.
vengarr  [Team Member]
1/3/2012 1:04:09 AM EST
Originally Posted By Dano523:
To add: remember that you are running lead bullets down a ported barrel, and after time, the lead is going to be shaved into the barrel gas port and FSB passage, blocking that part of the gas system.

So on that note, if you are going to be using the rifle for both 223 and 22lr, just remember that there is lead fouling going on within the gas passages that may need to be cleaned from time to time.


I have shot over 40k rounds through my ciener equipped bushmaster m4a3, it won't won't cyccle 223 now. IT isn't a big deal because this is a dedicated 22 gun but it is something to watch out for.
SureShot1313  [Member]
1/3/2012 9:04:39 AM EST
thanks for all the input! l'll try things out one by one to see what i can come up with. the upgraded charging handle, new spring and the extractor l'll order up right away, never a bad thing to have an new parts on hand when needed. i did notice that the case was up in the charging handle a little.
Dano523  [Moderator]
1/3/2012 5:14:11 PM EST
Bad ejection path of the brass on the way out, with the case bounced off the carrier rail and back up into the action.

With the ejector edges cleaned up on the rail, and the extractor either replaced/current one cleaned up/debur'd, and the ejector slot in the bolt cleaned as well, should have the correct ejection path for the spent case to be thrown center out of the ejection port window, and not off the carrier rail to be deflected back into the action.
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