AR15.Com Archives
 Armalite AR-10 SASS vs LMT MWS
amstel78  [Team Member]
11/23/2011 8:30:24 PM
I'm at junction here and can't decide which route to go down.

The SASS and MWS are equivalently priced. The SASS from the get go has a SS 20" barrel with guaranteed 1 MOA performance. The MWS while coming with a 16" CL barrel has also proven to be very accurate with good ammo. The MWS also has the ability to swap barrels easily.

So, can anyone with experience with both rifles please tell me what the better option is?
Paid Advertisement
--
apochromat  [Member]
11/23/2011 10:39:33 PM
I just received my SASS upper today. Based on how well my 15T barrel shoots, I'm very eager to see how its big brother shoots.
Southrnshooter  [Member]
11/23/2011 11:05:14 PM
The SASS is a heavy sucker. But I love mine. Shoots better the more I shoot it. I have no experience with the MWS.





ARKAR  [Team Member]
11/23/2011 11:09:15 PM
Build an AR10 lower, then buy a AR10T carbine upper and a AR10 National Match upper.
You can swap to whichever barrel length upper you want and won't have to even turn a
wrench to do it. Just pull the pins, swap uppers and push the pins back in. If you can
afford an optic for each upper, you won't even have to re-zero after a barrel change.
Depending on how nice of a lower you build, I think you'd have about the same money
in this setup as an LMT.

AR10T carbine uppers are $978
AR10NM rifle uppers are $1,049

I think they only do a run of the NM setups every now and then, so you might have to wait for
one to be in stock.

ARKAR
amstel78  [Team Member]
11/24/2011 12:59:40 AM
Originally Posted By Southrnshooter:
The SASS is a heavy sucker. But I love mine. Shoots better the more I shoot it. I have no experience with the MWS.


Thanks for the reply. Any issues or problems to date with your SASS? How about QC and customer service from Armalite?

FInally, and not so important but I've read that Armalite's fit-and-finish can be pretty shoddy. What about your rifle? Any complaints?
Southrnshooter  [Member]
11/24/2011 1:16:02 AM
Originally Posted By amstel78:
Originally Posted By Southrnshooter:
The SASS is a heavy sucker. But I love mine. Shoots better the more I shoot it. I have no experience with the MWS.


Thanks for the reply. Any issues or problems to date with your SASS? How about QC and customer service from Armalite?

FInally, and not so important but I've read that Armalite's fit-and-finish can be pretty shoddy. What about your rifle? Any complaints?


Mine is finished out better than most AR's you look at. Upper and lower fit are very tight. The second AR-10 I bought, a carbine, does have some of the voids (dimples I guess you would call them) in the upper and lower receiver forgings. But my SASS is absolutely perfect. I will also say both rifles just feel well made. Have the NM trigger on the SASS and the regular 2 stage on the carbine. Both work good and the NM is the best trigger I have ever felt on this type firearm. Magazines lock in good and snug. I don't have to fight the take-down pins to pull it apart.

I initially thought I had a problem with the SASS when I first shot it. Had some popped primers. Turned out to be the ammo. I spoke with TR at Armalite and they were very helpful and offered to check the rifle. After shooting some FGGM and Winchester I figured out the actual problem. No issues at all since. I am very happy with both of them.

Here is a pic of my carbine:

Southrnshooter  [Member]
11/24/2011 11:33:23 AM
Hey Amstel, if you haven't already, you may want to post in the Varients forum. Lot of MWS guys over there that can tell you about their rifles. Most of them don't venture in here too often.
amstel78  [Team Member]
11/24/2011 11:54:12 AM
Originally Posted By Southrnshooter:
Hey Amstel, if you haven't already, you may want to post in the Varients forum. Lot of MWS guys over there that can tell you about their rifles. Most of them don't venture in here too often.


Thanks, I did but no one so far has been able to answer a very specific question regarding the MWS. I was hoping to find out whether or not the MWS receivers were forged and what type alloy was used; i.e. 6061, 7075, or 7175. Unfortunately, the specifications posted by LMT on their website are sparse and do not mention that info.

This is my dilemma and I'll be honest here. I like both platforms. The Armalite from what I've read seems to be built like a tank using 7175-T73 and T74 alloys for the receivers. The AR-10 bolt carrier group also seems to be a tad beefier than the DPMS pattern rifle. The AR-10 SASS already comes with a match grade stainless steel barrel whereas that's a 700 dollar option for the MWS. The SASS also has an adjustable PRS type stock. On the other hand, the MWS has a detachable barrel and from an aesthetic point of view, a nicer looking monolithic upper and KAC-style SR-25 type lower. I question the necessity for a quick-change barrel system as I already own a Bushmaster ACR and have discovered that such systems can also introduce a unique subset of problems not normally found with standard screwed-in or pressed-in barrels. Not sure if similar problems would arise down the road with the MWS. Both rifles have proven to be very accurate - even the MWS with its 16" chrome-line barrel can shoot MOA groups with good ammunition. Finally, the issue of magazines is something to consider. The MWS has more magazine options whereas the Armalite is stuck using Armalite-only mags.

Both rifles can be found new for under $2500 at the moment. If I had the money, I'd just buy both but that's not the case. I'm actually looking to create a semi-auto sniper system and not a battle rifle. I'm still leaning towards the Armalite despite most telling me to go with the MWS. I'm hoping someone that has used both platform can give me an honest account of each system's pros and cons so I can make an educated decision.

ETA: Who makes the 20" match SS barrels for Armalite? Or, if Armalite turns their own barrels, who supplies the blanks?
Mattsandb  [Member]
11/24/2011 2:29:18 PM
Another thing you got to look at too is AR10 magazines are better and cheaper whereas the SR25 mags can cost an arm or a leg (or your marriage LMAO)
amstel78  [Team Member]
11/24/2011 2:50:57 PM
Originally Posted By Mattsandb:
Another thing you got to look at too is AR10 magazines are better and cheaper whereas the SR25 mags can cost an arm or a leg (or your marriage LMAO)


Better in what way? The follower? As far as price goes, CTD has both types of mags in stock at equivalent prices.
Mattsandb  [Member]
11/24/2011 5:02:12 PM
Many DPMS pattern magazines have feeding problems (deformed lips or simply bent) and their 20 rounders only hold 19 rounds. SR25 mags are really expensive. The Armalite Mags are patterned after the m14 mag design. I've never had problems with any of their mags. 3 years ago I had the dilemma of choosing DPMS or ARMALITE. DPMS was a tad cheaper and I got to see why. Their distribution sucks, never had anything in stock, and their customer service was slow. I went with Armalite because they were always in stock or they could get it in two or three weeks or less. I've never seen better customer service from a gun company before until I got a chance to talk to Tim Rooker and others from Armalite. They know their stuff. The LMT is a fantastic weapon, but you'll save a little bit of money going with Armalite. Also something to look into, The Brits designated marksmen rifle made by LMT had some receiver shattering problems after 3000 rounds. Armalite tells you exactly how their receivers are made, and don't hide no facts from you.

I have a buddy with a LMT, he wishes he had my Armalite AR-10 National MATCH instead.

Just did what I did and look hard at each weapon, if you can try them. Shooting the weapons first gets you a better feel and helps you make up your mind. You'll feel so much better about it after. I have no regrets at all. Good Luck with your purchase!

Make sure you post pics of your AR10 or .308 AR
amstel78  [Team Member]
11/24/2011 5:43:43 PM
Thanks Mattsandb, appreciate the input. I haven't heard anything about the LMT receivers shattering, but if that's accurate I would be very concerned. I called LMT the other day and spoke to a tech there who had no idea what the receivers were made out of or whether or not they were forged. I asked him to check with someone who might know and he came back stating they used 7075 forgings. However, the fact that even he didn't know right off the bat is disconcerting. I'm going to try and get a hold of Gene at LMT tomorrow and ask him to fully clarify.

I do appreciate the fact that Armalite comes right out and states their receivers are made from 7175-T74 and T73 aluminum which is quite harder than 7075-T6.
Southrnshooter  [Member]
11/24/2011 5:56:59 PM
If you are building a pure target rifle, it seems to me that Armalite is the way to go. 20" stainless barrel is going to get your round further down range and with more velocity than a 16" barrel. I know my carbine is not going to run with the SASS because of the barrel length.

As someone else said, both rifles are excellent platforms that are being used my other militaries. One thing that has always puzzled me about the MWS is the 2 different bolt configurations. They have an issue with extraction and ejection. And instead of really solving the issue, they come back with another bolt with 2 ejectors? I have not read everything about them, but their rifle is the only one I know of (AR variety) that has 2. Did they solve the problem or just come up with a fix?

Magazines. Armalite's are extremely well built. You can feel it when you insert one in a rifle. Yes they are a little more expensive. I have 24 mags for my 2 AR-10's right now and I have only bought (1) of the 5 round packs from Armalite. The others I have bought/traded on the EE for $28 a piece or less. For a mag that is in everyway built as strong and functions as well as a $100 KAC mag, I'll go Armalite everyday.

I agree with you on the barrel swap issue. It is a neat concept, but it did not sway me enough to buy their rifle. Right now I understand it is hard to get any parts for a MWS much less the barrels. Plus the barrels $$$. Someone posted recently they were looking for a replacement bolt and carrier and they had to go with another brand that would work.

I should say, I have only had my AR-10's since March of this year. Bought the SASS then and the carbine about a month ago. I did all the research and reading I could. Plowed through all the fanboy crap including what I got fed here from the different sides. I decided I was going with Armalite and I am still very happy with that decision. I don't like talking bad about anyones rifle, especially one I don't have any personal experience with. The above information is just some of the reasons I decided not to go with LMT when I bought. Take it for what it's worth and good luck with your decision.
amstel78  [Team Member]
11/24/2011 6:27:10 PM
Well, I couldn't stand to spend another night debating to myself the finer points of each weapon system so I've gone ahead and ordered the Armalite SASS. I believe this will be suitable for what I'm intending to be a long-range target weapon.

While the aesthetics of the LMT MWS in my opinion are better, I did not want to spend more money to get a rifle with a 20" stainless barrel plus swap the stock out to a PRS unit. As for 308 battle rifles? I already had two FALs which I sold, and am currently building a Sage EBR with an 18" steel barrel.

A quick shot of the Sage being test fitted with the barreled action:


I ordered the SASS from Cheaper Than Dirt at an amazing price of $2325.57 shipped. I couldn't beat that! I will post pics as soon as it arrives. Thanks again to everyone who helped answer my questions.
Mattsandb  [Member]
11/24/2011 7:41:43 PM
That's a good looking EBR you got there! I'm telling you the .308 is back in vogue. I love my AR-10 National Match. You'll find the AR-10 will weigh a little less than your M-1A. I commend you on your purchase. The Armalite SASS is a well put together rifle. I'm jealous LOL
Southrnshooter  [Member]
11/24/2011 10:05:34 PM
Originally Posted By amstel78:
Well, I couldn't stand to spend another night debating to myself the finer points of each weapon system so I've gone ahead and ordered the Armalite SASS. I believe this will be suitable for what I'm intending to be a long-range target weapon.

While the aesthetics of the LMT MWS in my opinion are better, I did not want to spend more money to get a rifle with a 20" stainless barrel plus swap the stock out to a PRS unit. As for 308 battle rifles? I already had two FALs which I sold, and am currently building a Sage EBR with an 18" steel barrel.

A quick shot of the Sage being test fitted with the barreled action:
http://jamespaulsarte.com/temp/olyarms/sage01.JPG

I ordered the SASS from Cheaper Than Dirt at an amazing price of $2325.57 shipped. I couldn't beat that! I will post pics as soon as it arrives. Thanks again to everyone who helped answer my questions.


Nice looking rifle. I am sure you will like the SASS. While CTD is not my favorite, you did get a great price. Thats about $100 cheaper than Buds.
FREEFALLE7  [Team Member]
11/25/2011 12:05:08 AM
Pmags are only $17

Originally Posted By Mattsandb:
Another thing you got to look at too is AR10 magazines are better and cheaper whereas the SR25 mags can cost an arm or a leg (or your marriage LMAO)


FREEFALLE7  [Team Member]
11/25/2011 12:11:23 AM
I have no experience with the AR10, but love my MWS

I get less than 1 MOA using fed 175gn Sierra match king bulllets and just like the fact it is the closest I could get to a SR-25 type rifle for half the price.



The British Army has adopted them and are getting good reports with the rifle and the PMAGS.

If the AR10 took Pmags and a KAC URX rail I would have got one.

Here is a pic last week shooting it with the US Army Sniper school at FT Benning GA



Don't laugh at my improvised sand sock as I left it in the Barracks

Another pic



If you cant decide just get both

links to more info on the MWS

http://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=10

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1752509#Post1752509
Mattsandb  [Member]
11/25/2011 1:52:15 AM
PMAGS are always available for the DPMS rifle pattern. If it wasn't for the PMAGS, the DPMS style would've been doomed and would've had a harder time pushing that rifle and its variants. But the AR10 can always use M1A mags with a small modification. So if there was another AW Ban, The AR10 would fare better because M1A/M-14 Mags will always be available.

But you don't buy a rifle for its magazine LMAO

We buy it for quality and if it does the job you intend it to do.
amstel78  [Team Member]
11/25/2011 7:46:36 AM
Hi FreeFalle7,

I've seen pictures of your MWS before - somewhere on the net.

Glad you like the rifle! It was an incredibly hard decision and trust me, I would have bought both if I had the cash. Perhaps one of these days I will pick up an MWS to keep as 308 battle rifle. At present though, I wanted something with a 20" stainless barrel from the get go and didn't want to spend an additional $700 to achieve that. I also like the fact that the AR-10 seems to have been over-designed with the use of 7175 alloy in both upper and lower receivers.

BTW, I was 19k with 2 BCT, 1st AD out of Bauhmholder. Met and made friends with some Rangers during my time in service. Great bunch of guys. Are you still AD?
FREEFALLE7  [Team Member]
11/25/2011 9:07:27 AM
Yep still on Active duty as a Ranger Instructor in Florida

I used to be a 19D from 91-94 with Atrp 1/17 Cav 82nd ABN Div

Free


Originally Posted By amstel78:
Hi FreeFalle7,

I've seen pictures of your MWS before - somewhere on the net.

Glad you like the rifle! It was an incredibly hard decision and trust me, I would have bought both if I had the cash. Perhaps one of these days I will pick up an MWS to keep as 308 battle rifle. At present though, I wanted something with a 20" stainless barrel from the get go and didn't want to spend an additional $700 to achieve that. I also like the fact that the AR-10 seems to have been over-designed with the use of 7175 alloy in both upper and lower receivers.

BTW, I was 19k with 2 BCT, 1st AD out of Bauhmholder. Met and made friends with some Rangers during my time in service. Great bunch of guys. Are you still AD?


LARRYG  [Team Member]
11/25/2011 7:13:27 PM
Originally Posted By amstel78:
Originally Posted By Southrnshooter:
The SASS is a heavy sucker. But I love mine. Shoots better the more I shoot it. I have no experience with the MWS.


Thanks for the reply. Any issues or problems to date with your SASS? How about QC and customer service from Armalite?

FInally, and not so important but I've read that Armalite's fit-and-finish can be pretty shoddy. What about your rifle? Any complaints?


Really now? Where did you read that?

LARRYG  [Team Member]
11/25/2011 7:17:38 PM
Originally Posted By FREEFALLE7:
I have no experience with the AR10, but love my MWS

I get less than 1 MOA using fed 175gn Sierra match king bulllets and just like the fact it is the closest I could get to a SR-25 type rifle for half the price.


Just curious how your LMT is closer to the SR25 than the AR10.

LARRYG  [Team Member]
11/25/2011 7:18:14 PM
Originally Posted By FREEFALLE7:
Pmags are only $17

Originally Posted By Mattsandb:
Another thing you got to look at too is AR10 magazines are better and cheaper whereas the SR25 mags can cost an arm or a leg (or your marriage LMAO)




Trolling the AR10 forum again?

amstel78  [Team Member]
11/25/2011 9:41:23 PM
Originally Posted By LARRYG:
Originally Posted By FREEFALLE7:
I have no experience with the AR10, but love my MWS

I get less than 1 MOA using fed 175gn Sierra match king bulllets and just like the fact it is the closest I could get to a SR-25 type rifle for half the price.


Just curious how your LMT is closer to the SR25 than the AR10.



Well, from what I can tell the LMT uses a KAC-style DPMS pattern lower. The upper is also a DPMS pattern as well and with the exception of the barrel system, looks a lot like the SR-25.
RCC1  [Team Member]
11/26/2011 7:58:27 AM
I think in the end your going to have people who swear by Armalite and those that swear by the DPMS/KAC platform. I prefer the AR10 myself. I have nothing negative to say about the others as I haven't owned one. Both of my AR10's have been flawless performers. I have a Super SASS and an AR10T carbine with stainless barrel.

Here's the SASS-









And the carbine-









jagdkommando  [Team Member]
11/26/2011 8:40:36 AM
Originally Posted By RCC1:
I think in the end your going to have people who swear by Armalite and those that swear by the DPMS/KAC platform. I prefer the AR10 myself. I have nothing negative to say about the others as I haven't owned one. Both of my AR10's have been flawless performers. I have a Super SASS and an AR10T carbine with stainless barrel.

Here's the SASS-

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn38/rccox/Guns/AR-TENS/DSC00138.jpg

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn38/rccox/Guns/AR-TENS/DSC00139.jpg

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn38/rccox/Guns/AR-TENS/DSC00140.jpg

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn38/rccox/Guns/AR-TENS/DSC00141.jpg

And the carbine-

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn38/rccox/Guns/AR-TENS/DSC00144.jpg

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn38/rccox/Guns/AR-TENS/DSC00145.jpg

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn38/rccox/Guns/AR-TENS/DSC00146.jpg

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn38/rccox/Guns/Gun%20house/DSC00355.jpg



Why do you run your Larue mount backwards?
RCC1  [Team Member]
11/26/2011 9:27:53 AM
Originally Posted By jagdkommando:
Originally Posted By RCC1:
I think in the end your going to have people who swear by Armalite and those that swear by the DPMS/KAC platform. I prefer the AR10 myself. I have nothing negative to say about the others as I haven't owned one. Both of my AR10's have been flawless performers. I have a Super SASS and an AR10T carbine with stainless barrel.

Here's the SASS-

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn38/rccox/Guns/AR-TENS/DSC00138.jpg

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn38/rccox/Guns/AR-TENS/DSC00139.jpg

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn38/rccox/Guns/AR-TENS/DSC00140.jpg

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn38/rccox/Guns/AR-TENS/DSC00141.jpg

And the carbine-

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn38/rccox/Guns/AR-TENS/DSC00144.jpg

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn38/rccox/Guns/AR-TENS/DSC00145.jpg

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn38/rccox/Guns/AR-TENS/DSC00146.jpg

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn38/rccox/Guns/Gun%20house/DSC00355.jpg



Why do you run your Larue mount backwards?


For a few reasons but mostly because that's the way the mount best served my needs.

madcratebuilder  [Member]
11/27/2011 11:47:30 AM
I've had two range days shooting a LMT. It's a very nice rifle, lighter than my NoveskaLite hybrid. Accuracy and reliability has fine and I would seriously consider one if I was not already invested in the ArmaLite platform. My 21" Noveske upper well out shoot the LMT but it's a heavier rifle, and I well not give it up for any SR25 style.

amstel78  [Team Member]
11/27/2011 12:02:00 PM
This is going to sound nuts, but if I wanted to utilize an AR-10 carry-handle sight on the SASS, what front sight would I use? I'm assuming the standard gas block front sight that comes with the AR-10 NM will not work on the rail as its a tad taller to compensate for the lower height of the gas block right?

The reason I ask is there are days when I prefer to use irons, and personally I like the look the carry handle gives to the rifle.

ETA, I found this on LMT's website and looks like the iron sight used on the MWS which is mounted on the handguard rail and not a gas block. Would this work with the Armalite carry handle sight?
http://www.lmtstore.com/accessories/tactical-front-sight-assembly.html


This is Armalite's front sight and I believe would not be on the same plane as the carry handle sight if mounted on the handguard rail:
http://www.armalite.com/ItemForm.aspx?item=10806410&ReturnUrl=Categories.aspx?Category=b5d84597-3666-4326-89c9-15fac1afdf18
FREEFALLE7  [Team Member]
12/8/2011 2:01:08 AM
Nope just giving my input

Originally Posted By LARRYG:
Originally Posted By FREEFALLE7:
Pmags are only $17

Originally Posted By Mattsandb:
Another thing you got to look at too is AR10 magazines are better and cheaper whereas the SR25 mags can cost an arm or a leg (or your marriage LMAO)




Trolling the AR10 forum again?





Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
FREEFALLE7  [Team Member]
12/8/2011 2:03:56 AM
The bolts are the same and a SR-25 upper will mount up to the LMT lower.


Originally Posted By amstel78:
http://
Originally Posted By LARRYG:
Originally Posted By FREEFALLE7:
I have no experience with the AR10, but love my MWS

I get less than 1 MOA using fed 175gn Sierra match king bulllets and just like the fact it is the closest I could get to a SR-25 type rifle for half the price.


Just curious how your LMT is closer to the SR25 than the AR10.



Well, from what I can tell the LMT uses a KAC-style DPMS pattern lower. The upper is also a DPMS pattern as well and with the exception of the barrel system, looks a lot like the SR-25.




Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Paid Advertisement
--