AR15.Com Archives
 Should my first .308 be a Remington 700 or an AR10?
semperfiws6  [Member]
5/9/2011 12:34:31 PM
I know that the belief has been that bolt guns are generally more accurate. I dont think that is the case anymore. That said, I am leaning toward an AR10 or variant. Any reason not to go this route?
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Jeffreynmandy  [Member]
5/9/2011 1:28:28 PM
I've been thinking about the same thing. I'm starting to lean toward the 700 so it'll be something different than my ar. My walmart has a Remington 700 on clearance for 418$ but it's in 30.06. I'm really wanting the .308.
DavidGCalderone  [Member]
5/9/2011 2:04:57 PM
With handloads and careful shooting a bolt gun can be more accurate. It really depends on your intended use. If you want just punch tight groups in a target, a bolt gun is better. If you want to have fun shooting and shoot slightly larger groups, than go with the AR10. I own two 700's and two AR10. I am more accurate with the 700's, but they are hunting guns with fine hunting scopes. My AR10's are iron sight guns, and I can cleaning take deer out to 300 yards with them. The down side, is the AR10 is about 2 pounds heavier than the 700's
Adirondack1  [Team Member]
5/9/2011 2:17:57 PM
Remington R25 would do you well, it is both Remington and AR10!
http://www.remington.com/product-families/firearms/centerfire-families/autoloading-model-r-25.aspx
Bandit117  [Member]
5/9/2011 3:06:35 PM
A 700 will be cheaper and lighter, as well as more reliable. Not to say an ar10 isnt, but the 700 action is very simple
Pilk  [Team Member]
5/9/2011 3:25:22 PM
Whats the rifles mission?

Repeatable absolute accuracy? Rem 700.

high volume of fire, and great AVERAGE accuracy? AR10
ArmaLite  [Site Sponsor]
5/9/2011 4:38:01 PM


AR-10 is a registered ArmaLite trademark. With that said, since the Remington R25 (or for that matter the Remington 700)isn't an ArmaLite or an AR-10, it doesn't belong in this forum. This is the "ArmaLite AR10® & AR180®" forum. Try the Varients forum.

TR

TescoVee  [Member]
5/9/2011 6:12:51 PM
Originally Posted By Pilk:
Whats the rifles mission?

Repeatable absolute accuracy? Rem 700.

high volume of fire, and great AVERAGE accuracy? AR10


First off, if you buy a semi auto get an AR-10 not an R25. An AR-10 with a good barrel and trigger will have nearly identical accuracy as a Remington 700. Yes an accurized bolt action will be better but anybody who can tell the difference already knows better, so if you are asking, thats not you. I say make decision based on your preference for fire rate, cost, aesthetics, ect... then buy both.
PaperStreet  [Team Member]
5/9/2011 6:16:24 PM
Get Both.

I have a Rem 700 Police. It is a very accurate gun for an out-of-the-box rifle with minimal mods (trigger job). They are currently running ~$900 as seen here: Impact Guns

I also have an AR-10 which I am currently working on. I won't comment an accuracy just yet as I am still getting used to the gun. I will say that it won't outshoot my 700. What it will do is keep a lot of rounds on target really fast if I want to.

It all comes down to what the purpose of the rifle is and how much money you have. If you are trying to get the tightest groups possible and don't need mag capacity, get the 700. If you like having up to 25 rds of 7.62 at your fingertips and don't mind sacrificing some accuracy, get the AR-10.
LARRYG  [Team Member]
5/9/2011 6:54:01 PM


Actually, it's neither. It's a DPMS and it's not an AR10.
LARRYG  [Team Member]
5/9/2011 6:56:25 PM
If you must have a bolt rifle, you can't be a Savage 10FP for accuracy and bang for the buck right out of the box.

If you want to spend a little more, an AR30 is a damn nice bolt action rifle.

Like someone has already said, it depends on what you want the gun to do.

My AR10A4 with SS barrel was taken out to 1200 by a former Marine Corp Scout Sniper on a 3 foot steel gong.

5 out of 5.
Aimless  [Site Staff]
5/9/2011 6:56:51 PM


That's a dpms
LARRYG  [Team Member]
5/9/2011 7:05:47 PM
Ah crap, the penguin is here........
army_eod  [Team Member]
5/9/2011 7:27:20 PM
As we ask in the software development world; what are your requirements?
desertmoon  [Team Member]
5/9/2011 9:18:53 PM

Originally Posted By LARRYG:
Ah crap, the penguin is here........


You tickle him.....I'll go hide!!!
Southrnshooter  [Member]
5/9/2011 10:05:12 PM
I asked myself the same question as you about 6 months ago. Was looking at a Rem 700, Savage, and FN bolt guns before deciding on the semi-auto route. Gonna spend some money, might as well get what you REALLY want the first time. Took me a while to decide on Armalite but I am glad I did.

I went with this about a month back. It actually looks a little different now. Magpul rail covers, grip and trigger guard. Harris bipod with YHM adapter. Got to take some new pics.

JD42  [Team Member]
5/9/2011 10:30:47 PM
Get both. If you can. But it up to you what you are going to be doing with it.













My Ar10 and Styer SSG.
semperfiws6  [Member]
5/9/2011 11:12:52 PM
At first I was concerned more with overall accuracy. However, I am wondering what kind of groups you guys are getting with your AR's because it honestly may be good enough for me and come with the benefit of versatility.

So, I am hoping to learn what kind of groups you guys are getting. Also, is the reasoning behind barrel length options similar to AR's in 5.56 (i.e. a 20in barrel wont give you better accuracy but will help in velocity)?

Thanks
PaperStreet  [Team Member]
5/10/2011 6:13:35 AM
Originally Posted By semperfiws6:
... Also, is the reasoning behind barrel length options similar to AR's in 5.56 (i.e. a 20in barrel wont give you better accuracy but will help in velocity)?
Thanks


Similar to other rifles. Longer barrels don't increase accuracy, only velocity. A longer sight radius increases accuracy, but you won't have that since you will be using glass.

20" is optimal for an AR-10. Anything longer won't do anything but increase gun weight. you can go down to 18" and lose ~30 FPS. I wouldn't recommend going below 18" on a gun which will be used for long range shots. You'll lose about ~150 FPS going from 18" to 16".

mrraley  [Moderator]
5/10/2011 9:31:21 AM


It is neither....

The "Freedom group" has DPMS, Bushmaster, and Remington in it, and this is the way it was put to me...

Bushmaster makes the R-15 for Remington...
DPMS makes the R-25 for Remington...

And neither of those two have anything to do with ArmaLite or an AR10.

desertmoon  [Team Member]
5/11/2011 7:51:01 PM

Originally Posted By Southrnshooter:
I asked myself the same question as you about 6 months ago. Was looking at a Rem 700, Savage, and FN bolt guns before deciding on the semi-auto route. Gonna spend some money, might as well get what you REALLY want the first time. Took me a while to decide on Armalite but I am glad I did.

I went with this about a month back. It actually looks a little different now. Magpul rail covers, grip and trigger guard. Harris bipod with YHM adapter. Got to take some new pics.

http://i557.photobucket.com/albums/ss19/southrnshooter/DSC_0335.jpg

Hell...I like it just the way it sits right there!!!
LonghornAR  [Member]
5/15/2011 9:11:08 PM
Originally Posted By semperfiws6:
At first I was concerned more with overall accuracy. However, I am wondering what kind of groups you guys are getting with your AR's because it honestly may be good enough for me and come with the benefit of versatility.

So, I am hoping to learn what kind of groups you guys are getting. Also, is the reasoning behind barrel length options similar to AR's in 5.56 (i.e. a 20in barrel wont give you better accuracy but will help in velocity)?

Thanks


Funny you should ask since I just came back from the range with a Remington 700 and an AR-10 (Eagle Arms branded upper, Armalite branded lower). I didn't measure the shot groups but they both were doing less than an inch at 100 yards. I know, it's a pretty short distance (I'm just starting to get into practical long range shooting) but them being relatively equal at the distance should give you some benchmark to work with. Others should chime in soon with their results.
JTR  [Member]
5/17/2011 5:38:33 AM
Well, I have both a Rem 700 LTR and an AR10 (two actually, one carbine I bought way back when and an AR10(T) build I assembled from components). I really like both guns. The LTR is lighter, requires less cleaning, and cost less. It shoot's MOA all day long, as long as I'm not having a bad day. I can generally manage 3 to 10 round groups about 7/8" at 100m from a bypod with a supressor and 10x IOR scope. (and an adjusted factory trrigger). (Best groups with FGMM 168 gr factory ammo).

The AR-10(T) on the other hand, cost more, I had to buy mags for it (Armalite seems to almost always have the 5-mag deal on their website) and it weighs more. The main thing I don't like about it is like almost ever other gun out there, I actually have to CLEAN IT from time to time... sheesh. Of course with the same supressor as the LTR on the 22" cut and threaded factory barrel, factory NM trigger, etc... and an 12x IOR scope. It consistantly shoots 5/8" or less 10-rounds groups @100m from a bypod with the same FGMM 168gr factory ammo. -Last week I obtained a .221"" 4-shot group with 165gr SST loads... and 3 more groups less than .451." (I can e-mail you a pic if you want). The AR-10 has been completely reliable, and is prob. more fun to shoot.

Anyway, I think I have an exceptionally accurate AR-10, (Although my best friend also has a completely factory AR-10(t) that he bought the same day I bought my carbine, way back when, that also shoot's 5/8" to 7/8" 10-rnd strings with FGGM every single time) but I don't think buying a 700 instead for accuracy is valid unless you are getting/making a custom build, in which case it will cost WAY more than the AR-10. If I was choosing PRIMARILY for hunting, I would go with the R700, because it's lighter and plenty accurate, cheaper, less maintinence, etc. If you're buying it to shoot a lot, have fun with, hunt occationally, have around the house to look at and pet... I mean umm... impress friends with....and don't mind cleaning a nasty gas gun, Get the AR-10. I also feel like Armalite has some of the better customer service in the industry. (for example, they installed the 2-stage NM trigger and several upgrades for FREE on my carbine, I only payed the cost of parts and shipping). They definatly have a good presence here on the boards and are always willing to help, Often times i have seem them "warrenty repair" firearms that they knew were damaged due to no fault of the gun/Armalite, or occationally even for other than the origional owner, etc. Backing up your product and supporting your customer like that goes a LONG way in my book.




Edited to add pics. -I'm not sure where my .221 and .447 targets are... here's the other two, the .234 and .451.

-JTR

P.S. I have 2 good friends I've known since birth, who back durring the last election period couldn't wait for an AR-10 and ended up getting DPMS's, figuring it should be almost as good and cost less. They have regretted it ever since and are both trying to save up to trade in for an Armalite. I have no experience with the DPMS but they have both put hundreds of rounds through my AR-10's, so take it for what it is, maybe they just got lemons, who knows.
Wyldman  [Team Member]
5/17/2011 6:37:23 AM
Let's put it this way: no deer or hog I ever shot with either rifle could ever tell the difference, they were both just as dead, just as quickly.

That's what I love about the 7.62x51 round, if you do your part, whatever you hit with it will drop like a bad habit.

.308: turning cover into concealment for over 60 years.
demusn1979  [Team Member]
5/17/2011 8:13:25 AM
Originally Posted By JTR:
Last week I obtained a .221"" 4-shot group with 165gr SST loads... and 3 more groups less than .451." (I can e-mail you a pic if you want). The AR-10 has been completely reliable, and is prob. more fun to shoot.

-JTR



.221 groups with a .30 cal ?

Urban_Ops  [Team Member]
5/17/2011 9:21:22 AM
Originally Posted By demusn1979:
Originally Posted By JTR:
Last week I obtained a .221"" 4-shot group with 165gr SST loads... and 3 more groups less than .451." (I can e-mail you a pic if you want). The AR-10 has been completely reliable, and is prob. more fun to shoot.

-JTR



.221 groups with a .30 cal ?



Why not? groups are measured center of the hole so he could get groups smaller than that.
Nichonator  [Team Member]
5/17/2011 8:56:03 PM
After getting into my 5.56 SPR's and my AR10 I have not shot my bolt guns in a while. Mostly purchased them (Rem 700 in 22-250, Rem 700 Sendero in 25-06, Win Mod 70 in 308 and 300 Win mag) to hunt deer, pig and prairie dogs with.

My 25-05 and 308 are real tack drivers. That inherent accuracey is rarely needed. My AR's in either caliber are close to or as accurate, have excellent follow up shot capability with out torquing my body out of its shooting postion to reload and are fu n to shoot. Wont sell my bolt guns anytime soon but there kind of for the geezers these days.
coldair  [Team Member]
5/17/2011 9:03:36 PM
http://www.fnhusa.com/mil/products/firearms/model.asp?fid=FNF055&gid=FNG020&mid=FNM0112
eightring  [Team Member]
5/22/2011 5:47:27 PM
Originally Posted By semperfiws6:
I know that the belief has been that bolt guns are generally more accurate. I dont think that is the case anymore. That said, I am leaning toward an AR10 or variant. Any reason not to go this route?


As has been asked before, what is your intended use?

If you want to hand load for maximum accuracy for a particular rifle without COL magazine restrictions,
go with the Savage bolt action.

If you want to still hunt or spot and stalk, and be able to shoot from the offhand position, go with a Savage / Remington.

If you have extra cash, and want to indulge your fantasies regarding killing zombies who are hiding behind cover, then
go with the AR10.

If you have extra cash and just want to have fun, go with the AR10.

Personally, I'd start with a bolt gun and learn to shoot it. After that, I would investigate the AR10 / M1A / AR-308 platforms.
PredatorWhacker  [Team Member]
5/22/2011 10:13:17 PM
Logical answer...get both. I have both and like both but if I was restricted to one, I'd pick the AR10 (real one) for no particular reason other than personal pref.

Pilk  [Team Member]
5/28/2011 12:32:12 AM
I agree.....get both....


PredatorWhacker  [Team Member]
5/31/2011 10:05:04 PM
One other thing. My line of thinking since the AWB sunset is get em' while their hot. The AWB days were a dreadful time for all where it seemed like the chance owning some unique awesome rifles that weren't neutered were long gone. Or if you did want something, you would have to pay an astronomical amount to get what you want.

With the unpredictable idiot(s) we have in charge at the moment, anything could happen and God forbid this current freedom to get what you want could disappear. I would get the semi autos you might desire while you can. Chances are you will still be able to get that bolt gun if things ever went south. I know I'd be kicking myself in the butt if I missed the opportunity to get something while the getting is good.

I didn't have some of the things I wanted when the AWB was shoved down our throats the first time around. They are trying like hell to revive the stupidity. Let me tell you, it sucked. Much to my wife's dismay I've been making up for it since. lol!

(edit SP)
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