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 problems with rock river arms !!!!!! UPDATE !!! STILL PROBLEMS!!!! NEW UPDATE !!!!!
in812  [Member]
3/6/2008 12:21:01 PM
I bought some RRA lowers built 1 of them put a RRA upper on it and clips wouldn't fit after a lot of measuring i found the mag well was not cut in the right location it was shifted .040 forward causing interference with the upper so i check my other lowers and found all 4 of them are out of spec !!!!! I bought them at 2 different dealers 1 dealer just swapped me out a couple he had in stock (talk about customer service !) the other dealer didn't want to believe their was a problem at first and then wanted to ship them back for warranty well i had already called RRA they said they knew of the problem and had some set back to take of the "bad" ones the got out now dealer #2 tells me oh it's going to be a while they wont have those for several weeks ! I'm about to sell all my RRA lowers and parts and buy for a company that has some quality control !

Just a heads up for all you out there with RRA lowers
here is how i found my problem print for an AR show the front flat of the mag well
.225 from the back of the front pin or .350 from the center line of the front pin depending on who's print you look at but 1/2 .250 pin puts them in the same place
an easy way to check them is put a .250 dowel pin and Mic across the pin to the flat
it should be .475 +- tolerance
sure not .435 .040 shifted forward !

UPDATE !!!!

well i just picked up the 2 replacements for the out of spec. ones
guess what ! they are out of spec not as bad but still .015 /.016 shifter forward
you know after returning a pair of out of spec ones you would think they would be damn sure the replacements were RIGHT !

RRA you need to hire a new QC guy !


NEW UPDATE !!!!!!!

RRA
you want to have good customer service and stand behind the products you sell
offer a full refund to everyone not happy to the quality of your product !
1st in line

RRA4LIFE  [Team Member]
3/6/2008 12:25:33 PM

Originally Posted By in812:
I bought some RRA lowers built 1 of them put a RRA upper on it and clips wouldn't fit after a lot of measuring i found the mag well was not cut in the right location it was shifter .040 forward causing interference with the upper so i check my other lowers and found all 4 of them are out of spec !!!!! I bought them at 2 different dealers 1 dealer just swapped me out a couple he had in stock (talk about customer service !) the other dealer didn't want to believe their was a problem at first and then wanted to ship them back for warranty well i had already called RRA they said they knew of the problem and had some set back to take of the "bad" ones the got out now dealer #2 tells me oh it's going to be a while they wont have those for several weeks ! I'm about to sell all my RRA lowers and parts and buy for a company that has some quality control !

Just a heads up for all you out there with RRA lowers
here is how i found my problem print for an AR show the front flat of the mag well
.225 from the back of the front pin or .350 from the center line of the front pin depending on who's print you look at but 1/2 .250 pin puts them in the same place
an easy way to check them is put a .250 dowel pin and Mic across the pin to the flat
it should be .475 +- tolerance
sure not .435 .040 shifted forward !



You tried to put "clips" into your magwell? Theres your problem, magazines go there!!



But seriously, I would let rock river make it right...
pejope36  [Team Member]
3/6/2008 1:41:29 PM
i gotta check mine now...
Senorx  [Member]
3/6/2008 2:19:12 PM
Great! My RRA lower arrived last week and my LPK/Stock arrived yesterday. I won't be able to purchase an upper until June, because I have to save up for it. I hope RRA Industry Representative chimes. Maybe they can identify which batches were out of spec. via serial number. Or maybe by lot number, ie. from this date to this date, these lowers are out of spec. or from this serial number to this serial number they are out of spec. This is my first build and I only bought a RRA lower, because everyone around raves about the high quality they put out and now this. I was gonna assemble the lower receiver this week, but I don't want to have to disassemble it in 3 months, if its not in spec. How about some pics on how you did the measurements and with what??
AzNooB  [Member]
3/6/2008 2:34:45 PM
Oh man... I was planning to buy a RRA lower for my first build next week...
prcharlie  [Member]
3/6/2008 3:33:08 PM
I had the same trouble
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=66&t=358529
RedFalconBill  [Team Member]
3/6/2008 3:49:07 PM
So, is the lower that your one dealer swapped out good to go?

Did you get a RMA, so you can send back/exchange your other lower?

Did you also post this question in the Industry forum, so Steve can respond?

(ETA: I see that Senorx has already done so.)
pejope36  [Team Member]
3/6/2008 5:50:52 PM
i just checked mine and it was perfect no problems with pmags, bushy, and colt mags.
i guess i lucked out and got a good one...i still plan on buying RRA products they havent failed me yet, there has to be a way to tell which ones got screwed up (ie.serial numbers) anyone know???
KB5  [Member]
3/6/2008 7:14:12 PM
Anyone know what the +/- tolerance is for this measurement?

I just checked two RRA lowers I was getting ready to build up. One was right on at .475” the other came out to .465”.

Thanks for any info.
RedFalconBill  [Team Member]
3/6/2008 7:42:11 PM

Originally Posted By KB5:
Anyone know what the +/- tolerance is for this measurement?

I just checked two RRA lowers I was getting ready to build up. One was right on at .475” the other came out to .465”.

Thanks for any info.


From the centerline point of the front takedown pin to the forward face of the magazne well is supposed to be 0.350". The takedown pin is 0.250", so the centerline would be 0.125"

So, 0.350" + 0.125" = 0.475".

I measured my three RRA lowers and all three were 0.475".

Two of these were RRA lowers I bought and the third RRA lower was a complete NM A2 Rifle.

Measure again to see if it your 2nd lower is 0.010" off.

There is a +/- 0.003" variation on the distance from the centerline point of the front takedown pin to all the other measurements on the lower.

Based on this, I would say that if your measurment is +/- 0.003" from 0.475", your GTG.
KB5  [Member]
3/6/2008 9:48:49 PM

Originally Posted By RedFalconBill:

Originally Posted By KB5:
Anyone know what the +/- tolerance is for this measurement?

I just checked two RRA lowers I was getting ready to build up. One was right on at .475” the other came out to .465”.

Thanks for any info.


From the centerline point of the front takedown pin to the forward face of the magazne well is supposed to be 0.350". The takedown pin is 0.250", so the centerline would be 0.125"

So, 0.350" + 0.125" = 0.475".

I measured my three RRA lowers and all three were 0.475".

Two of these were RRA lowers I bought and the third RRA lower was a complete NM A2 Rifle.

Measure again to see if it your 2nd lower is 0.010" off.

There is a +/- 0.003" variation on the distance from the centerline point of the front takedown pin to all the other measurements on the lower.

Based on this, I would say that if your measurment is +/- 0.003" from 0.475", your GTG.


Measured 3 more times. Once with front take down pin in place with out detent, once with .250" drill bit in take down holes and once with front take down pin installed with detent. All thre times it came out to .465" on one side and .466" on the other side of the grove in the front of the magwell.

Sounds like I need to contact Steve at RRA.

Looks like this thread saved me a lot of heartburn as this lower was going to be sent for engraving this weekend.

Thanks
KB5
dutchman74  [Member]
3/6/2008 9:55:58 PM
Doesn't CMT make the RRA lowers
pejope36  [Team Member]
3/6/2008 10:01:13 PM

Originally Posted By dutchman74:
Doesn't CMT make the RRA lowers



yes they do

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=12&t=318113
JoeBud  [Team Member]
3/7/2008 12:09:31 AM
They are aware of the issue. Industry thread
in812  [Member]
3/7/2008 12:41:44 PM
thanks RedFalcon,
i wasn't sure what the tolerance was i thought it should be under .005
LJUnaTIC  [Team Member]
3/7/2008 6:31:42 PM

Originally Posted By KB5:
Anyone know what the +/- tolerance is for this measurement?

I just checked two RRA lowers I was getting ready to build up. One was right on at .475” the other came out to .465”.

Thanks for any info.


My older RRA has been totally reliable and measures .469" serial range 320xx

Two recent lowers serial range 1211xx and 1212xx I have measure .445-.448" and I called and recieved an RMA on these today.

These two also have out of round rear take down pin holes .250" x .259"
Senorx  [Member]
3/7/2008 10:16:49 PM
Gave Steve my RRA serial # at the industry forum and he said it was not even near the out of spec batch.
Assaulter  [Member]
3/9/2008 12:34:18 PM
I have one that is incredible tight with a VLTOR MUR upper. I've already dropped them off to have a barrel cut and installed. I had also noticed that the mags didn't seem to fit well. When I get the serial number I'll check it out, but I'm going to be pissed if I have to send it back! The lower had shaved some aluminum off of the upper's rear lug, and the rear pin shaved aluminum out of the inside of the rear lug. Sound out of spec to you?
LJUnaTIC  [Team Member]
3/9/2008 9:58:04 PM

Originally Posted By Assaulter:
I have one that is incredible tight with a VLTOR MUR upper. I've already dropped them off to have a barrel cut and installed. I had also noticed that the mags didn't seem to fit well. When I get the serial number I'll check it out, but I'm going to be pissed if I have to send it back! The lower had shaved some aluminum off of the upper's rear lug, and the rear pin shaved aluminum out of the inside of the rear lug. Sound out of spec to you?


A tight fit at the rear of the upper is a trait of RRA lowerss . It is not an issue when an RRA upper is used, but only when non RRA uppers are matched to an RRA lower.

Shaving a slight amount off of the rear lug allows for a very snug fit with no slop.

The rear lug may have been shaved due to the misalignment a tight can cause before the lug is "fitted"
BladedRonin  [Team Member]
3/10/2008 3:43:27 AM
I've had my RRA for 2 yrs now and all I can say is it is one sturdy piece of work. It has never given me any issues.
in812  [Member]
3/11/2008 5:12:09 PM
read the update at the top !
RedFalconBill  [Team Member]
3/11/2008 5:16:58 PM

Originally Posted By in812:
read the update at the top !


Look at this and take measurements

AR Lower Receiver Blueprint.
in812  [Member]
3/11/2008 5:26:27 PM
yes i have several sets of AR prints they all show the mag well
.225 from the back of the front pin
or
.350 from the center line of the front pin
or
.475 measured across a .250 gage pin

RRA still hasnt fixed the problem !
RedFalconBill  [Team Member]
3/11/2008 5:32:04 PM

Originally Posted By in812:
yes i have several sets of AR prints they all show the mag well
.225 from the back of the front pin
or
.350 from the center line of the front pin
as stated in the original post !


I posted that so that you might take more then just one measurement.

Were these my lowers, I would not feel comfortable if the measurement was under 0.470"

Since there are not that many companies that make lowers/uppers, I'm thinking that RRA might not be the only company this affects, though this does not remove/minimize the issue RRA has right now.

Have you been in communication with Steve?
BlackRifle223  [Member]
3/11/2008 5:54:07 PM
can someone post a pic of how to properly measure these with digital calipers...

thanks for helping a noob out
in812  [Member]
3/11/2008 5:58:54 PM
calipers are not the best way to measure it but it will get you close
1) get a .250 pin dowel pin gage pin or what ever you might have .250 round and straight
2) just put it in place of the front pin and measure across the pin to the front flat of the mag well not the radius relief in the center
ckay  [Member]
3/11/2008 7:31:54 PM
Did reading that original post hurt anyones' head i mean the lack of punctuation with the exception of the occassional exclamation point was getting crazy that might have been the longest run on sentence i've ever read can you believe that anyway i have some rra lowers and they are out of spec however my clips fit into the clipwell so i don't think i'm going to bother with disassembly of my lower to send back to rra some clips hang up in the clip well but that is okay because I will use those as range clips! it's only like three clips out of the stash i have!!! i mean what is three less clips really and if shtf anyway rra will do you right hopefully the one they send you will be within spec it'd suck to send another one back ya know i mean really anyway thanks for your heads up
68sscamaro  [Member]
3/11/2008 9:03:42 PM
if you send an out of spec lower back to rra do they send a new one back to you or do they send it to a ffl for a nics check and transfer..
prcharlie  [Member]
3/11/2008 11:15:04 PM
They sent a new one right back to me with my parts installed. Had to sign for it though, glad I was home.
Sniperdoc  [Member]
3/12/2008 1:51:58 AM

Originally Posted By ckay:
Did reading that original post hurt anyones' head i mean the lack of punctuation with the exception of the occassional exclamation point was getting crazy that might have been the longest run on sentence i've ever read can you believe that anyway i have some rra lowers and they are out of spec however my clips fit into the clipwell so i don't think i'm going to bother with disassembly of my lower to send back to rra some clips hang up in the clip well but that is okay because I will use those as range clips! it's only like three clips out of the stash i have!!! i mean what is three less clips really and if shtf anyway rra will do you right hopefully the one they send you will be within spec it'd suck to send another one back ya know i mean really anyway thanks for your heads up



Grow up. Go troll somewhere else. If you don't have something to contribute, don't post.



Sniperdoc  [Member]
3/12/2008 1:55:46 AM
Has anyone experienced this problem with a factory (RRA) built gun?
in812  [Member]
3/12/2008 6:56:16 AM
prcharlie,
did they send you the same lowers back ?
or replacements w/ different s/n ?
do you have an FFL ?
AR_556  [Member]
3/12/2008 8:34:04 AM

Originally Posted By in812:
UPDATE !!!!

well i just picked up the 2 replacements for the out of spec. ones
guess what ! they are out of spec not as bad but still .015 /.016 shifter forward
you know after returning a pair of out of spec ones you would think they would be damn sure the replacements were RIGHT !

RRA you need to hire a new QC guy !

That's not cool at all. I just sent 2 back yesterday for the same problem. I'm wasn't upset about it as I can understand a bad batch getting out once and a while. This is not an RRA issue IMO because all the companies do it from time to time.

In fact, I thought I had checked out the 2 lowers I sent back top-to-back when I first got them but I never thought to check for this. Point is, shit happens but if my replacement lowers come back with the same issue, I'm going to be pissed. There is no good excuse for that.

I'm going to post this in the thread in their industry section as I believe it belongs there as well.
Steve_M  [Member]
3/12/2008 11:42:01 AM
I've been following this a few days and have a little something I would like to add:

The .350 dim on the blue print doesn't have a tolerance specified as shown, looking at the legend area of the print ( lower right hand area ), is a note that states " Tolerances unless otherwise Specified" the tolerance is + / - .015".
A very correct way to check this Dim. and get a "In the Ballpark" figure would be to insert a .250 pin into both holes and measure back to the inside face of the mag well.
Adding half the hole size to the .350"dim. you would get .475" , apply the tolerance and your mearurement should be .460" to .490" and still be " To Print ".

To me this number seems a little "Wild" , but who am i to argue with perfection.
Hope this helps ( and hope I've read the print correctly )



Lower B/P
in812  [Member]
3/12/2008 12:08:26 PM
LAMO
I see the general tolerance on that print
but look at the print
1)you mean to tell me the drain hole for the front dentent spring for take down pin is as critical as +-.010 but yet the mag well can be off .015 ?
2) the mag latch has a +- .0035

Steve_M  [Member]
3/12/2008 12:34:33 PM

Originally Posted By in812:
LAMO
I see the general tolerance on that print
but look at the print
1)you mean to tell me the drain hole for the front dentent spring for take down pin is as critical as +-.010 but yet the mag well can be off .015 ?
2) the mag latch has a +- .0035



I understand and I have the same questions ,as I said above the + /- .015" tolerance sounds kind of "wild " to me also,
I'm only reading ( or trying to ) what someone else has drawn. Maybe the tolerance for the .350" dim got left off somehow ?????, Someone with deeper knowledge on the product will need to answer that.
in812  [Member]
3/12/2008 12:43:08 PM
I ask that exact question in the industry forum
lets wait and see what RRA says
Jesusbot  [Member]
3/12/2008 2:00:38 PM

Originally Posted By in812:
LAMO
I see the general tolerance on that print
but look at the print
1)you mean to tell me the drain hole for the front dentent spring for take down pin is as critical as +-.010 but yet the mag well can be off .015 ?
2) the mag latch has a +- .0035



Do you know what .015 looks like? Grab a pair of calipers and see...it ain't much.

-Jbot
RRAMODERATOR  [Industry Partner]
3/12/2008 2:23:19 PM
Until pointed to it by one of the contributors to this thread, I didn'teven know it existed here.
Unfortunately, that is the much vaunted Colt reprint, and RRA DOES NOT use that print or it's dimensioning/tolerances. Using it will NOT tell you if your RRA lower is or is not to our spec.
Steve/RRA
in812  [Member]
3/12/2008 3:03:28 PM
RRA ,
so why don't you just post a set of prints you use
i have several sets of prints for mil spec lowers all of them show the same thing
quit beating around the bush and just post the measurement and tolerance RRA uses
you do have a tolerance don't you ?

Jesusbot,
i realize .015 is not a lot
but in a machine or gun .015 is a bunch
try taking a hole drilled and reamed .485 and try putting a .500 pin in it
.015 tolerance is a bunch!
blacksmiths and apprentices can get closer than that !
in812  [Member]
3/12/2008 5:25:11 PM
LMAO
hide your poor quality control behind "proprietary drawings" B/S
you either produce mil spec lowers that conform to industry standards and military prints or you produce mil spec rejects ! with poor QC
hell you cant answer a couple simple questions !
1) dimension you use from the front pin to the front of the mag well
2) tolerance on that dimension you use !

if you stand behind your product so much why not offer a full refund of purchase price of you lowers !

as you can see I'm not a happy customer !
refund full purchase price !
I'll go buy other MFG's lowers that magically match all the prints i have and posted ones here HUM !
prcharlie  [Member]
3/12/2008 8:27:29 PM

Originally Posted By in812:
prcharlie,
did they send you the same lowers back ?
or replacements w/ different s/n ?
do you have an FFL ?


I called them up and was given a return auth#. I sent in my partially built lower. They sent me a new lower (different serial #) with my parts installed. No FFL required.
RRAMODERATOR  [Industry Partner]
3/13/2008 9:20:24 AM
IN812,
It doesn't appear that anything anyone does is going to make you happy, or even content. We've replaced your lowers once, with fully functional lowers. We've offered to do so again.
Please IM me your contact info (our customer data files don't use ARFCOM screen names) so I can further pursue what you had, what you have, and possible fixes, if necessary, with or for you. An invoice number or RMA number would also help.
We are trying to help you.
Thank you.
Steve/RRA
honorabledog  [Team Member]
3/13/2008 9:30:21 AM

Originally Posted By Sniperdoc:
Has anyone experienced this problem with a factory (RRA) built gun?


Nope, One of the best I've ever had the pleasure of shooting. The fit is perfect.
Jesusbot  [Member]
3/13/2008 10:39:37 AM

Originally Posted By in812:


Jesusbot,
i realize .015 is not a lot
but in a machine or gun .015 is a bunch
try taking a hole drilled and reamed .485 and try putting a .500 pin in it
.015 tolerance is a bunch!
blacksmiths and apprentices can get closer than that !


Better yet, try putting a .500 pin in a .500 hole...that's not going to happen either.

The magwell location on a AR-15 lower can vary at least .015 and not matter...

Don't get me wrong, I routinely work down to .0001 without problems, I'm just saying that the measurement you're looking at isn't that critical.

-Jbot
AtlantaFireman  [Team Member]
3/13/2008 11:34:59 AM
I've seen similar type things with Colt, Bushmaster, Stag. It seems that companies hit a growth rate which may exceed the quality controls in place: growing pains. All three fixed the problems. RRA has a good reputation and chances are will fix the problem. Their 2-stage triggers have dropped in quality while the price went up.

Personally, I have a difficult time understanding how pieces made on a CNC machine get out of specifications, unless the program or operator are the cause.

Edited to add:
This is generally why small companies stay small....and busy; they know the limitations of maintaining high quality.
Jesusbot  [Member]
3/14/2008 10:34:41 AM

Originally Posted By AtlantaFireman:


Personally, I have a difficult time understanding how pieces made on a CNC machine get out of specifications, unless the program or operator are the cause.



Tools wear and become smaller...Ideally the operator should notice this and change the tool offset or switch to a fresh endmill.

-Jbot
SHIPSNIPE1  [Team Member]
3/14/2008 11:05:39 AM

Originally Posted By Jesusbot:

Originally Posted By AtlantaFireman:


Personally, I have a difficult time understanding how pieces made on a CNC machine get out of specifications, unless the program or operator are the cause.



Tools wear and become smaller...Ideally the operator should notice this and change the tool offset or switch to a fresh endmill.

-Jbot


Sometimes the company is just too cheap to reinvest some of their profits into keeping their equipment in good shape.

As is the place I work for. (non-firearms related)
DonnyBaker  [Member]
3/14/2008 1:02:45 PM
Then there are some people that are never happy with anything that you do.
Maryland_Shooter  [Team Member]
3/14/2008 1:45:40 PM

Originally Posted By prcharlie:
I had the same trouble
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=66&t=358529


Me too, but they fixed it - cheerfully!
Maryland_Shooter  [Team Member]
3/14/2008 2:05:10 PM

Originally Posted By in812:
prcharlie,
did they send you the same lowers back ?
or replacements w/ different s/n ?
do you have an FFL ?


Sent me a different lower with a different SN - no big deal as they sent all the receipts being nice and specific about the transaction.

I called MSP and all they needed was a fax or mailed copy (I did both).

Why would you ned an FFL?

I buy a pistol - it needs adjusting from the factory - I ship it to them, they make the adjustment, they ship it back. Seems simple enough to me.