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 50 Yard Aimpoint Zero Good to GO!
Gargoyle  [Member]
2/11/2003 2:31:00 PM
I have the luxury of firing in excess of 1000 yards in a field behind my house. For an Aimpoint test, I zeroed the 20" rifle at 50 yards and then proceeded to fire upon a Metal human silhouette at ranges from 100-300 yards. AT 100yds and 200yds I was able to put all rounds into the head. (200yds required putting just a slither of the dot higher on the head) At 300 yards, with a 1 dot holdover, over the head, I hit middle plate, or in the lower chest area.

My guess is that if one were to shoot at a target 300yds out and place the dot center mass, one would hit lower pelvis and middle quads area of the legs.

Thanks New Ar-guy for the advice!
billclo  [Member]
2/11/2003 2:34:10 PM
Did you consider trying a 25 yard zero? This is what the military uses. If you are using M855 ammo, it should be very close to on target at 300 yards. Don't know about M193, but it ought to be a little lower at 300, shouldn't it?
Gargoyle  [Member]
2/11/2003 2:46:16 PM
I'm using XM193. I have always know the 25 meter zero to print pretty high at 300. I am really pleased with this 50 yard zero.
new-arguy  [Team Member]
2/11/2003 2:49:47 PM
billco, did you try a 25 yard zero and shooting at 100, 200 and 300? If so you'd know why he is so happy with the 50 yard zero... Gargoyle, pay me back by letting me shoot at your house 1t 1000 yards!!! Man, furthest I had a chance to shoot was 450 at BRC. A range thats about an hour from here is 300 and is supposed to be pushing out to 600. I have my fingers crossed. I took a friend of mine to this same range. He was a new rifle shooter. I just helped him build his AR, he wanted the Reflex sight. We zerod him in at 50 yards and I told him to try and hit the steel at 300. He said there was no way he could do it. I just told him put the dot at the top of the plate. He was so happy, he was able to hit time after time.
Forest  [Member]
2/11/2003 4:08:58 PM
[quote]Originally Posted By billclo: Did you consider trying a 25 yard zero? This is what the military uses. [/quote] No the Army uses a 25 METER zero (27.3yards) with an offset of the sight (and its still wrong). The USMC uses a 36 yard zero. [quote] If you are using M855 ammo, it should be very close to on target at 300 yards. [/quote] If you think 10" HIGH is 'very close'. The 25M zeroing procedure for the M16A2 & M4 has been discredited YEARS ago. The IBSZ not only offers a superior trajectory, but it will properly calibrate the elevation wheel. As New-ARGUY pointed out - have you actually shot at targets at 200 & 300 yards and confimed bullet impact? (heck even the ballistic calculators show it will be very high). We have and that is why we use the Santose IBSZ ([url]http://groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/improvedbattlesightzero.msnw[/ulr]) [quote] Don't know about M193, but it ought to be a little lower at 300, shouldn't it?[/quote] M193 zeroed at 25 METERS is a 375M far zero -per both the FM23-9 and the M16A1 operators manual. We used to zero them with the 'L' aperture at 25M then flip to the unmarked aperture (for a 43M/250M battlesight zero). Zero it at 25 yards and you're looking at very close to a 400M zero with M193...
CMOS  [Member]
2/11/2003 6:41:02 PM
Guys, what kind of twist rate is in the barrels you're using on your M4's? CMOS
billclo  [Member]
2/11/2003 8:36:16 PM
Last info I had, the USMC was using a 25 meter zero...this is according to a Marine handbook I had (#P1500.44A - it may be old). This may have changed - if so, I stand corrected. Unfortunately, I don't have access or seen any ballistic calculator programs. If you could point me to one, I'd be grateful. I have been using an A1 sight system, and only just recently got the A2 - I have no access to any range beyond 100 yards right now, so I have no way to check actual bullet impact at 200 and 300 yards. It appears you're correct about the A1 long range sightin with POI at 375 yards; re-checked one of my manuals. Unfortunately, I don't know how I'd arrange a 27 yard sightin with the range facilities I have (very picky range rules say that we can ONLY shoot from behind the line, and only use their target frames - stinks). Nevermind, it appears that I'm talking out my butt. :)
11-bravo  [Member]
2/11/2003 8:53:24 PM
The Army does use a 25 meter zero but this is not really a ZERO because they sight in with the sights on 8/3 + 1 click (I think these click are 1 MOA but I'm not sure) anyway then the soldier twists the rear sight down one click to 8/3 EVEN and then he is Zeroed as far as the Army is concerned. With this zero technique the soldier has to aim at the bottom of the 150 and closer tagets and the bottom 1/4 of targets between 150-250 and dead on at 300meters. (It takes some getting used to but once you get it it works fine on human silouettes between point blank and 300meters.- It's only really zeroed for 300meters though [oddly enough making the 300meter targets close to the easiest to hit.]) you'll never get consistant head shots with the Army zero (and iron sights) but then I'ld like to see anyone get a headshot on a 150-300m target that's up for 2-5seconds with iron sights using any zero.
Gargoyle  [Member]
2/12/2003 1:21:45 AM
Ok guys, to answer the USMC zero myth, I provide the following. I was a Marine Primary Marksmship Instructor in 96 at Camp Hansen Okinawa. (7th award expert, honor graduate in PMI school) We zeroed our rifles at 36 yards to give a battle sight zero (BZO) of 300 yards. I instructed all of my shooters to set thier zeros at the 300yd mark to 8/3-1 to hit center mass. (That is what I did) Most of my shooters used this zero, others could use the standard 8/3. One must take into consideration the zero change between positions, because zeros change from sitting, kneeling, and standing. Then again, zeros change from person to person. I had big male Marines shoot zeros unheard of by small female Marines. You might all be wondering why I am so thrilled to get a great BZO @50 yards with the Aimpoint. Well, like my quote says, "The most important lessons in life come after you already know everything", I didn't know the ballistics of 55gr XM193. We shot 62 grain Nato green tips in the Corps. In addition, I took the USMC marksmanship program to be the cannon of rifle shooting. Though the USMC has the finest marksmanship program in the world, it can't set an exact standard for every type of shooter out there, so it chose a standard zero which Marines could manipulate to their own shooting style. (The 36 yard zero is a starting point reference) With this said, it appears to me that the 50 yard zero with 55gr XM193 is to me...the best to be had. For the love of all things holy, just go out and establish your own zeros that match your body and shooting style. Or shoot to confirm the standardized zeros talked about on this forum.
Forest  [Member]
2/12/2003 11:19:02 AM
[quote]Originally Posted By billclo: Last info I had, the USMC was using a 25 meter zero...this is according to a Marine handbook I had (#P1500.44A - it may be old). This may have changed - if so, I stand corrected. [/quote] Yep its an old one - new one has the 36 [quote] Unfortunately, I don't have access or seen any ballistic calculator programs. If you could point me to one, I'd be grateful. [/quote] Go to the Maryland AR-15 Shooters Site. In the Zeroing Methods section is a link to the online JBM ballistic Calculator (which is VERY good). IF you sign up as a member (its free) you can download 3 different ballistic calculators: A PC/DOS freeware program An Excel Spreadsheet based calculator A freeware Palm OS PDA calculator (my favorite) [quote] I have been using an A1 sight system, and only just recently got the A2 - I have no access to any range beyond 100 yards right now, so I have no way to check actual bullet impact at 200 and 300 yards. [/quote] Then check it at 100 yards - you'll find its still quite high. [quote] I don't know how I'd arrange a 27 yard sightin with the range facilities I have (very picky range rules say that we can ONLY shoot from behind the line, and only use their target frames - stinks). [/quote] I can understand that. To simulate 25M you can sight in so the point of impact is about 3/8" lower than the point of aim. With my Reflex I found found 1 click was roughly the difference between 25Y & 25M (.86moa). HTH!
Forest  [Member]
2/12/2003 11:23:58 AM
[quote]Originally Posted By 11-bravo: you'll never get consistant head shots with the Army zero (and iron sights) but then I'ld like to see anyone get a headshot on a 150-300m target that's up for 2-5seconds with iron sights using any zero.[/quote] Been there done that on a USMC pop-up range (for the 150M targets)- some of the lanes had really worn targets and COM hits wouldn't register - so we had to go for head shots (some guys would aim for the groin instead). I wouldn't try it at 300M - the round would have dropped 9" with the IBSZ. Then again the 300m targets weren't as worn - so they didn't need it.
billclo  [Member]
2/12/2003 12:53:18 PM
Forest, Thanks for the info and setting me straight. I haven't done alot of shooting for awhile, and my memory failed me :)