Archived Posts » 60,515,685
Old Black Followers???
4/7/2012 10:58:34 PM
Are they worth anything?
I'm in the process of changing them out when I come across them, are they worth anything to anybody or should I just pitch them?
What say ye?
I'm in the process of changing them out when I come across them, are they worth anything to anybody or should I just pitch them?
What say ye?
4/7/2012 11:22:06 PM
Worthless. Why do ya think they stopped using em????
4/8/2012 9:31:06 AM
Not everyone is Delta Force, Rangers, SF, Marine Recon etc. like on this forum. They would work perfectly fine for the 99% that don't go anywhere more dangerous than the rifle range. They stopped using the M1 Garand and M14 too. Worthless????
4/8/2012 10:22:09 AM
While I agree in principal that they're essentially worthless to me, I didn't know if anybody else might have a use for them before I toss them. Just because I don't want or need them you never know what others may or may not be using...
4/8/2012 12:08:52 PM
Originally Posted By KurtVF:
Not everyone is Delta Force, Rangers, SF, Marine Recon etc. like on this forum. They would work perfectly fine for the 99% that don't go anywhere more dangerous than the rifle range. They stopped using the M1 Garand and M14 too. Worthless????
Not everyone is Delta Force, Rangers, SF, Marine Recon etc. like on this forum. They would work perfectly fine for the 99% that don't go anywhere more dangerous than the rifle range. They stopped using the M1 Garand and M14 too. Worthless????
Yes in the sense that those weapon platforms are obsolete.
My point being the black followers were replaced because guess what, there's something far superior. There called anti tilt followers. You do know that a weapon no matter how good is only as good as it's feeding device...... right?? I know back in the day when I first enlisted there was no such thing as an "anti tilt" follower and guess what the majority of all weapons failures were mag related (FTF) this was directly related to the inferior black follower that had no legs extending down to prevent it from tilting. Then along came the USGI "green" follower, that solved most of those issues.
Can you use the old black followers, sure you can. But why not have something feeding your weapon you can rely on.
4/8/2012 3:16:32 PM
The improvement from the black to green to tan is far less tha a 1% improvement. The idea that the black followers are not reliable and that somehow a new improved 50 cent piece of plastic will instantly make a huge diffrence is fallicy. It takes 1000s of rounds to see an improvement. If you are not kicking in doors on a daily basis and shoot cans at the range they work perfectly fine. I doubt they are worth much money but to say they are worthless just because they have been replaced by something doesn't mean that all of a sudden they won't work.
4/8/2012 10:58:30 PM
OK then, show me a quality new production magazine with the old style black follower, and weather or not our military is issuing them to our troops. Bottom line, the old black follower is obsolete. Your green and tan follower comparison has nothing to do with or discussion of the old black followers, that is what we were discussing correct. And yes that .50 cent (more like $2.00) piece of plastic polymer makes a world of difference in the reliability of your weapon. Cheap insurance my friend, is your life worth $2.00? Be honest.
4/9/2012 12:12:28 AM
I'm trying to remember what the old "worthless" dark green/white numbered colt followers sell for...?
I can't remember but what does the old "worthless" green 601 furniture sell for...?
It seems that with ARs if you can save something for over 20 years it becomes "retro" and valuable.
I saved most my old black followers just incase someday they are with $5 each for people wanting the "retro" look.
That $5 will more then pay off my high speed anti tilt followers that are in the mags now.
I can't remember but what does the old "worthless" green 601 furniture sell for...?
It seems that with ARs if you can save something for over 20 years it becomes "retro" and valuable.
I saved most my old black followers just incase someday they are with $5 each for people wanting the "retro" look.
That $5 will more then pay off my high speed anti tilt followers that are in the mags now.
4/9/2012 9:37:18 AM
Originally Posted By Undertaker:
And yes that .50 cent (more like $2.00) piece of plastic polymer makes a world of difference in the reliability of your weapon. Cheap insurance my friend, is your life worth $2.00? Be honest.
And yes that .50 cent (more like $2.00) piece of plastic polymer makes a world of difference in the reliability of your weapon. Cheap insurance my friend, is your life worth $2.00? Be honest.
As I previously stated, it takes thousands of rounds to see an improvement. Hardly what I or anyone would consider a "world of diffrence". I doubt there are many people on this forum who's life will be saved or lost because of a piece of plastic. How the Hell were we able to win the first Gulf War with that suicidal black follower????
4/9/2012 10:06:37 AM
They can be used to feed 545 mags. My brother found that old usgi mags with black followers worked better than cproducts mags.
4/9/2012 7:10:10 PM
Originally Posted By KurtVF:
As I previously stated, it takes thousands of rounds to see an improvement. Hardly what I or anyone would consider a "world of diffrence". I doubt there are many people on this forum who's life will be saved or lost because of a piece of plastic. How the Hell were we able to win the first Gulf War with that suicidal black follower????
Originally Posted By Undertaker:
And yes that .50 cent (more like $2.00) piece of plastic polymer makes a world of difference in the reliability of your weapon. Cheap insurance my friend, is your life worth $2.00? Be honest.
And yes that .50 cent (more like $2.00) piece of plastic polymer makes a world of difference in the reliability of your weapon. Cheap insurance my friend, is your life worth $2.00? Be honest.
As I previously stated, it takes thousands of rounds to see an improvement. Hardly what I or anyone would consider a "world of diffrence". I doubt there are many people on this forum who's life will be saved or lost because of a piece of plastic. How the Hell were we able to win the first Gulf War with that suicidal black follower????
Hold the phone. No one said the black follower was "suicidal". It's simply an evolution... you know an improvement. And hell yes many potential feeding failures have been averted by the "anti tilt" follower. As far as your "Gulf war" comment, you go to war with the military you have not the one you wish you had. Simply stated they had nothing better at the time so they didn't know any better. I'm not talking about mall ninjas either.
Here's a quote from the Magpul industry forum.
******Quoted directly from the Magpul rep*******
.
"Issues with the Black followers predate the PMags and while most will never see a difference, the military started seeing a large number of catastrophic failures that directly lead to the green follower being developed in the mid 1990's. Individuals might never see an issue with the black followers due to their small sample size but the problem became very apparent if you spent a day at a Marine Corp KD (Known Distance) course with 100 people on the line. Our rough estimate in terms of failure is Black- 1 in 2500rds, Green- 1 in 4600rds, Magpul/USGI Tan- 1 in 10,000rds"
I'll spend a few bucks on the new follower, thank you
.
4/9/2012 9:10:08 PM
Originally Posted By Undertaker:
******Quoted directly from the Magpul rep*******
"Issues with the Black followers predate the PMags and while most will never see a difference, the military started seeing a large number of catastrophic failures that directly lead to the green follower being developed in the mid 1990's......
******Quoted directly from the Magpul rep*******
"Issues with the Black followers predate the PMags and while most will never see a difference, the military started seeing a large number of catastrophic failures that directly lead to the green follower being developed in the mid 1990's......
So, these "catastrophic failures" just popped up after the followers were in use for 25 or so years?
I'd think that if the followers were so bad, there would have been a redesign back in the mid 70's.
But those crappy old black followers held their own for over 25 years.
I still say that I'd be willing to bet that in a semi auto AR, no one can make any of my old black follower USGI mags fail.
Short of doing something ridiculous, that is.
They just aren't all that problematic.
They're just not trendy, and certainly not cool.
And they lack serious operator appeal.
But they do work.
4/9/2012 9:56:12 PM
Find a kid and give them some plastic to make something artistic...Profit!!
4/10/2012 1:38:39 PM
Originally Posted By Undertaker:
Hold the phone. No one said the black follower was "suicidal". It's simply an evolution... you know an improvement. And hell yes many potential feeding failures have been averted by the "anti tilt" follower. As far as your "Gulf war" comment, you go to war with the military you have not the one you wish you had. Simply stated they had nothing better at the time so they didn't know any better. I'm not talking about mall ninjas either.
Here's a quote from the Magpul industry forum.
******Quoted directly from the Magpul rep*******
.
"Issues with the Black followers predate the PMags and while most will never see a difference, the military started seeing a large number of catastrophic failures that directly lead to the green follower being developed in the mid 1990's. Individuals might never see an issue with the black followers due to their small sample size but the problem became very apparent if you spent a day at a Marine Corp KD (Known Distance) course with 100 people on the line. Our rough estimate in terms of failure is Black- 1 in 2500rds, Green- 1 in 4600rds, Magpul/USGI Tan- 1 in 10,000rds"
I'll spend a few bucks on the new follower, thank you.
Originally Posted By KurtVF:
As I previously stated, it takes thousands of rounds to see an improvement. Hardly what I or anyone would consider a "world of diffrence". I doubt there are many people on this forum who's life will be saved or lost because of a piece of plastic. How the Hell were we able to win the first Gulf War with that suicidal black follower????
Originally Posted By Undertaker:
And yes that .50 cent (more like $2.00) piece of plastic polymer makes a world of difference in the reliability of your weapon. Cheap insurance my friend, is your life worth $2.00? Be honest.
And yes that .50 cent (more like $2.00) piece of plastic polymer makes a world of difference in the reliability of your weapon. Cheap insurance my friend, is your life worth $2.00? Be honest.
As I previously stated, it takes thousands of rounds to see an improvement. Hardly what I or anyone would consider a "world of diffrence". I doubt there are many people on this forum who's life will be saved or lost because of a piece of plastic. How the Hell were we able to win the first Gulf War with that suicidal black follower????
Hold the phone. No one said the black follower was "suicidal". It's simply an evolution... you know an improvement. And hell yes many potential feeding failures have been averted by the "anti tilt" follower. As far as your "Gulf war" comment, you go to war with the military you have not the one you wish you had. Simply stated they had nothing better at the time so they didn't know any better. I'm not talking about mall ninjas either.
Here's a quote from the Magpul industry forum.
******Quoted directly from the Magpul rep*******
.
"Issues with the Black followers predate the PMags and while most will never see a difference, the military started seeing a large number of catastrophic failures that directly lead to the green follower being developed in the mid 1990's. Individuals might never see an issue with the black followers due to their small sample size but the problem became very apparent if you spent a day at a Marine Corp KD (Known Distance) course with 100 people on the line. Our rough estimate in terms of failure is Black- 1 in 2500rds, Green- 1 in 4600rds, Magpul/USGI Tan- 1 in 10,000rds"
I'll spend a few bucks on the new follower, thank you
.
Spend all you want. Your quote from Magpul makes my point. It takes thousands of rounds to see the marginal improvement that the newer generations of followers provides. Certainly not a "World of diffrence".
4/10/2012 3:00:56 PM
Originally Posted By KurtVF:
Spend all you want. Your quote from Magpul makes my point. It takes thousands of rounds to see the marginal improvement that the newer generations of followers provides. Certainly not a "World of diffrence".
Originally Posted By Undertaker:
Hold the phone. No one said the black follower was "suicidal". It's simply an evolution... you know an improvement. And hell yes many potential feeding failures have been averted by the "anti tilt" follower. As far as your "Gulf war" comment, you go to war with the military you have not the one you wish you had. Simply stated they had nothing better at the time so they didn't know any better. I'm not talking about mall ninjas either.
Here's a quote from the Magpul industry forum.
******Quoted directly from the Magpul rep*******
.
"Issues with the Black followers predate the PMags and while most will never see a difference, the military started seeing a large number of catastrophic failures that directly lead to the green follower being developed in the mid 1990's. Individuals might never see an issue with the black followers due to their small sample size but the problem became very apparent if you spent a day at a Marine Corp KD (Known Distance) course with 100 people on the line. Our rough estimate in terms of failure is Black- 1 in 2500rds, Green- 1 in 4600rds, Magpul/USGI Tan- 1 in 10,000rds"
I'll spend a few bucks on the new follower, thank you.
Originally Posted By KurtVF:
As I previously stated, it takes thousands of rounds to see an improvement. Hardly what I or anyone would consider a "world of diffrence". I doubt there are many people on this forum who's life will be saved or lost because of a piece of plastic. How the Hell were we able to win the first Gulf War with that suicidal black follower????
Originally Posted By Undertaker:
And yes that .50 cent (more like $2.00) piece of plastic polymer makes a world of difference in the reliability of your weapon. Cheap insurance my friend, is your life worth $2.00? Be honest.
And yes that .50 cent (more like $2.00) piece of plastic polymer makes a world of difference in the reliability of your weapon. Cheap insurance my friend, is your life worth $2.00? Be honest.
As I previously stated, it takes thousands of rounds to see an improvement. Hardly what I or anyone would consider a "world of diffrence". I doubt there are many people on this forum who's life will be saved or lost because of a piece of plastic. How the Hell were we able to win the first Gulf War with that suicidal black follower????
Hold the phone. No one said the black follower was "suicidal". It's simply an evolution... you know an improvement. And hell yes many potential feeding failures have been averted by the "anti tilt" follower. As far as your "Gulf war" comment, you go to war with the military you have not the one you wish you had. Simply stated they had nothing better at the time so they didn't know any better. I'm not talking about mall ninjas either.
Here's a quote from the Magpul industry forum.
******Quoted directly from the Magpul rep*******
.
"Issues with the Black followers predate the PMags and while most will never see a difference, the military started seeing a large number of catastrophic failures that directly lead to the green follower being developed in the mid 1990's. Individuals might never see an issue with the black followers due to their small sample size but the problem became very apparent if you spent a day at a Marine Corp KD (Known Distance) course with 100 people on the line. Our rough estimate in terms of failure is Black- 1 in 2500rds, Green- 1 in 4600rds, Magpul/USGI Tan- 1 in 10,000rds"
I'll spend a few bucks on the new follower, thank you
.
Spend all you want. Your quote from Magpul makes my point. It takes thousands of rounds to see the marginal improvement that the newer generations of followers provides. Certainly not a "World of diffrence".
Not a "world of difference" depending on sample size, but to put into perspective magazine related malfunctions are the most common failures in the M16/AR15 system. The simple replacement of a follower reduces the chance of this failure by 70%.
The US Military saw enough in the data to forbid the use of Black followers in combat (here is their mantra issued to troops)
Black = Take it Back
Green = Start to Lean
Tan = Is the Plan
Also the studies I quoted are based upon USMC KD course figures which all are correct Mil spec Colt weapons/magazines that have been cleaned daily and use high quality ammunition.
Change this to an ill maintained, home built AR with aftermarket USGI clone magazine (with weak spring), cheap ammo and the effect of the follower will be seen sooner.
4/10/2012 4:00:44 PM
Your average Civi Ar owner rifle and mags will never see the abuse that G.I. Joe gives his issue rifle and mags.
Avg Civi rifle is stored in a safe, transported in a rifle case layed down on a wooden table, and may see 1,000 in 15 years of owner ship.
What does the average 15 year old G.I. Joe rifle look like?
Avg Civi rifle is stored in a safe, transported in a rifle case layed down on a wooden table, and may see 1,000 in 15 years of owner ship.
What does the average 15 year old G.I. Joe rifle look like?
4/11/2012 8:17:11 AM
Originally Posted By Magpul:
Not a "world of difference" depending on sample size, but to put into perspective magazine related malfunctions are the most common failures in the M16/AR15 system. The simple replacement of a follower reduces the chance of this failure by 70%.
Not a "world of difference" depending on sample size, but to put into perspective magazine related malfunctions are the most common failures in the M16/AR15 system. The simple replacement of a follower reduces the chance of this failure by 70%.
The most common malfunction in the M16 system is the person lining up the sights and pulling the trigger. By far. $100 worth of ammo and training would go a lot farther than $100 of new followers in increasing the capability of the M16.
