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 M193, Ammo Oracle and graphic pics of the true effects.
jbj16  [Member]
4/20/2009 10:12:59 PM EST
10m range, 20" Barrel M16A1 = very nasty and painfull!!!!

http://www.timawa.net/forum/index.php?topic=17111.0

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uglygun  [Member]
4/20/2009 10:24:40 PM EST
Anyone else think it's highly suspect that they are claiming the bone was broken thanks to hydrostatic shock alone?
Lumpy196  [Team Member]
4/20/2009 10:31:33 PM EST
Hmm...you mean hitting a large limb bone with a high velocity rifle bullet, shattering it and launching bone and bullet fragments throughout will cause a gruesome wound?
jbj16  [Member]
4/20/2009 10:46:09 PM EST
Originally Posted By uglygun:
Anyone else think it's highly suspect that they are claiming the bone was broken thanks to hydrostatic shock alone?


Hmmmmmm!? Yup, somewhat suspect on that part, but still impressive for such a teenie weenie bullet eh!!?
modnar  [Member]
4/21/2009 12:09:59 AM EST
Ouchies.

It'll buff right out.
Sanderbody  [Team Member]
4/21/2009 5:26:13 AM EST
Damn!
PUBBOY  [Team Member]
4/21/2009 5:38:34 AM EST
http://www.timawa.net/forum/index.php?topic=17111.0
socommatthews  [Team Member]
4/21/2009 5:45:45 AM EST
Man if a M193 does that, imagine what the Mk262 would do
Molon  [Team Member]
4/21/2009 5:51:19 AM EST
Originally Posted By uglygun:
Anyone else think it's highly suspect that they are claiming the bone was broken thanks to hydrostatic shock alone?


Yup, total unsubstantiated BS.
Dogue  [Team Member]
4/21/2009 6:06:41 AM EST
The wound is awesome but to break the femur (strongest bone in the body) without contact does seem very hard to believe.
STICKtime  [Member]
4/21/2009 6:24:37 AM EST
that was a brutal wound
pyro6988  [Team Member]
4/21/2009 6:26:36 AM EST
I bet that took the fight out of him.
jbj16  [Member]
4/21/2009 10:39:39 AM EST
ergo; for urban combat std 10 to 50m engagement distances M16 type assault rifle
and cartridge is good enough for me, dont plan to shoot enemy thru brick walls.

ie; identify target before shooting.
Spitfire75  [Team Member]
4/21/2009 11:56:41 AM EST
Tee hee, it tickles!
M1A4ME  [Member]
4/21/2009 12:56:45 PM EST
1. never shot anything bigger than a groundhog with a .223
2. used expanding bullets, lighter, higher velocity
3. even on something as small as a groundhog they don't always pass through the body
4. even on a groundhog that small lightweight high velocity bullet may richochet off a small bone and change direction

US Army, '75 to '79 and I heard lots of stories from VN vets about problems stopping VC with that same round as used in this report. Several commented that even though the bullet might go in the leg and out the shoulder they believed the bullet would bounce off the leg bones and change direction. Yeah, I know, opinions from a bunch of old NCOs drinking beer. So what.

Anyway, since the guy was only shot once I'd say the shooter felt no need to shoot him again (or was it a lucky shot and the shooter missed with the next 2 or 3??)
the-fly  [Team Member]
4/21/2009 1:17:16 PM EST
Well, here's an illegal alien that ate a 55gr FMJ from the USBP at point blank range. Agent went home alive, alien went 6 feet under, happy endings for everyone



Illegal go bye bye
sikpnter  [Member]
4/21/2009 4:47:57 PM EST
Adios Amigos!
peteinnewyork  [Member]
4/21/2009 4:48:10 PM EST
walk it off!
C-4  [Team Member]
4/21/2009 5:24:23 PM EST
Originally Posted By Molon:
Originally Posted By uglygun:
Anyone else think it's highly suspect that they are claiming the bone was broken thanks to hydrostatic shock alone?


Yup, total unsubstantiated BS.


+1

It defies all physics.
Molon  [Team Member]
4/21/2009 5:38:15 PM EST
Originally Posted By C-4:
Originally Posted By Molon:
Originally Posted By uglygun:
Anyone else think it's highly suspect that they are claiming the bone was broken thanks to hydrostatic shock alone?


Yup, total unsubstantiated BS.


+1

It defies all physics.


Not to mention that Dr. Martin Fackler debunked the "hydrostatic shock" myth years ago.
sikpnter  [Member]
4/21/2009 6:21:20 PM EST
Got to admit it was one hell of a warning shot!
doktarZues  [Team Member]
4/21/2009 8:29:56 PM EST
To the ballistic physicists:

So what broke the bone? Or is the thread/pic/story a farse?
ander254  [Member]
4/21/2009 9:02:18 PM EST
ah thats just a flesh wound....
Animal_Farm  [Member]
4/21/2009 9:41:19 PM EST
There is No way that bullet didn't hit the bone. Hitting the bone almost certainly caused the wound to be more grievous than it would have been if the bullet simply passed through the muscle.

Evildude87  [Member]
4/22/2009 5:02:24 AM EST
on hydrostatic shock
SSN_Doc  [Team Member]
4/22/2009 5:23:17 AM EST
Pretty sure the bullet tapped the bone on that one. Even though the first law of hydraulics is "The fluid always wins", it seems there are paths of less resistance for the fluid to follow.
DocGKR  [Team Member]
4/22/2009 8:57:25 AM EST
It is a well established that a large temporary stretch cavity from an upsetting rifle projectile can break bones. Dr. Fackler wrote about this finding over 20 years ago and it was also discussed in the IWBA Journal. The photos of the wound are consistent with what the 5.56 mm M193 FMJ does up to 85% of the time in soft tissue wounds. On the other hand, at least 15% of the time, M193 does NOT act like that.

For those folks who think the 55 gr M193 FMJ is a great 5.56 mm load for self-defense, the following quote was written by Dr. Martin Fackler, the man who has done more research on the M193 than anyone else on this planet:

“In 1980, I treated a soldier shot accidentally with an M16 M193 bullet from a distance of about ten feet. The bullet entered his left thigh and traveled obliquely upward. It exited after passing through about 11 inches of muscle. The man walked in to my clinic with no limp whatsoever: the entrance and exit holes were about 4 mm across, and punctate. X-ray films showed intact bones, no bullet fragments, and no evidence of significant tissue disruption caused by the bullet’s temporary cavity. The bullet path passed well lateral to the femoral vessels. He was back on duty in a few days. Devastating? Hardly. The wound profile of the M193 bullet (page 29 of the Emergency War Surgery—NATO Handbook, GPO, Washington, D.C., 1988) shows that most often the bullet travels about five inches through flesh before beginning significant yaw. But about 15% of the time, it travels much farther than that before yawing—in which case it causes even milder wounds, if it missed bones, guts, lung, and major blood vessels. In my experience and research, at least as many M16 users in Vietnam concluded that it produced unacceptably minimal, rather than “massive”, wounds. After viewing the wound profile, recall that the Vietnamese were small people, and generally very slim. Many M16 bullets passed through their torsos traveling mostly point forward, and caused minimal damage. Most shots piercing an extremity, even in the heavier-built Americans, unless they hit bone, caused no more damage than a 22 caliber rimfire bullet.”

Fackler, ML: “Literature Review”. Wound Ballistics Review; 5(2):40, Fall 2001


Only after proper foundational and ongoing repetitive refresher training, cultivating warrior mind-set, and ensuring weapon system reliability do you need to worry about ammunition selection. Most folks would be far better off practicing with what they have, rather than worrying about what is "best". As long as you know your what your weapon and ammo can realistically accomplish, it is all just a matter of training and shot placement. I would much rather go into battle with a guy who practices 15,000 rounds a year using generic 55 gr FMJ out of his old M16A1 than with some guy that has the latest state-of-the-art ammo and rifle, but only shoots 500 rounds a year. If you need to delve into the arcane subject of agency duty ammunition selection for 5.56 mm/.223, see: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19881
Samuel_Hoggson  [Member]
4/22/2009 9:03:46 AM EST
If you had only story and photos you'd be sure the distal femur took an impact. XRs leave no doubt. Sam
FreeBear  [Team Member]
4/22/2009 9:59:41 AM EST
Originally Posted By sikpnter:

Adios Amigos!



Folded that asshole like a wet noodle......
alpha6164  [Team Member]
4/22/2009 1:46:40 PM EST
As a physician and someone that has seen their fair share of gun shot wounds, i can tell you that no projectile can in contact with the femur.

The femur is broken in a spiral fashion which happens when significant force or pressure is applied along the shaft. If a projectile would have hit that bone you would not be seeing the sharp edges of the bones and how they perfectly fit together like a puzzle It would be many small pieces. The small pieces that you see are not bone fragments but metallic objects.
godrilla47  [Team Member]
4/22/2009 2:11:51 PM EST
Roll around you'll be alright!
phoenix27  [Member]
4/22/2009 2:15:16 PM EST
Man, if that is truly the result of an M193 hit at 10M, that is some nasty business for sure. Don't think that an M855 hit would look like that.
HeavyMental  [Member]
4/22/2009 3:01:39 PM EST
I've been injured worse than that. It really sucks.

If M193 could produce a wound like that every time, maybe it could replace my .375 H&H.
jcoffman55  [Team Member]
4/22/2009 5:23:40 PM EST
I am not a doctor, but I thought the bones looked like a pretty clean break. I would expect to see a "gap" where the bones are supposed to go together if a bullet that caused that nasty of a wound hit it. Like I said though not an expert. The pics are definitely m193 win though if the poster can be believed.
Just1MoreAR  [Team Member]
4/22/2009 5:47:43 PM EST
That really is amazing to see such a small projectile inflict that much damage.
sikpnter  [Member]
4/22/2009 5:51:31 PM EST
Originally Posted By phoenix27:
Man, if that is truly the result of an M193 hit at 10M, that is some nasty business for sure. Don't think that an M855 hit would look like that.


It would after it goes through armor.
FMJ  [Member]
4/23/2009 11:04:58 AM EST
Originally Posted By DocGKR:


For those folks who think the 55 gr M193 FMJ is a great 5.56 mm load for self-defense, the following quote was written by Dr. Martin Fackler, the man who has done more research on the M193 than anyone else on this planet:

[

Fackler, ML: “Literature Review”. Wound Ballistics Review; 5(2):40, Fall 2001[/span]


[span style='font-weight: bold;']Only after proper foundational and ongoing repetitive refresher training, cultivating warrior mind-set, and ensuring weapon system reliability do you need to worry about ammunition selection. Most folks would be far better off practicing with what they have, rather than worrying about what is "best". As long as you know your what your weapon and ammo can realistically accomplish, it is all just a matter of training and shot placement. I would much rather go into battle with a guy who practices 15,000 rounds a year using generic 55 gr FMJ out of his old M16A1 than with some guy that has the latest state-of-the-art ammo and rifle, but only shoots 500 rounds a year. If you need to delve into the arcane subject of agency duty ammunition selection for 5.56 mm/.223, see: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19881[/span][/quote]



AMEN!!!!

pseudojd  [Member]
4/23/2009 11:18:05 AM EST
the second pic has the dude's junk it.
Melvinator2k0  [Team Member]
4/23/2009 11:22:31 AM EST
Nonsense. M16/AR15s are mouse guns. The guy at the gun shop told me that.
Lindy_Hoppin_Gun_Nut  [Member]
4/23/2009 5:06:25 PM EST
Originally Posted By the-fly:
Well, here's an illegal alien that ate a 55gr FMJ from the USBP at point blank range. Agent went home alive, alien went 6 feet under, happy endings for everyone



Illegal go bye bye


What did the illegal do to deserve a fatal shot? What I could discern, he was about to throw a rock at the car?

Lindy_Hoppin_Gun_Nut  [Member]
4/23/2009 5:08:06 PM EST
Originally Posted By jbj16:
10m range, 20" Barrel M16A1 = very nasty and painfull!!!!

http://www.timawa.net/forum/index.php?topic=17111.0



Is that a Filipino web site? Those guys write better english than 95% of ARFCOMers.

sikpnter  [Member]
4/23/2009 5:32:51 PM EST
Originally Posted By Lindy_Hoppin_Gun_Nut:
Originally Posted By the-fly:
Well, here's an illegal alien that ate a 55gr FMJ from the USBP at point blank range. Agent went home alive, alien went 6 feet under, happy endings for everyone



Illegal go bye bye


What did the illegal do to deserve a fatal shot? What I could discern, he was about to throw a rock at the car?



Maybe there was an officer in the car taking cover from the rocks being thrown by his buddies.

Stove_Pipe  [Team Member]
4/23/2009 6:11:16 PM EST
Originally Posted By Lindy_Hoppin_Gun_Nut:
Originally Posted By the-fly:
Well, here's an illegal alien that ate a 55gr FMJ from the USBP at point blank range. Agent went home alive, alien went 6 feet under, happy endings for everyone



Illegal go bye bye


What did the illegal do to deserve a fatal shot? What I could discern, he was about to throw a rock at the car?



"a rock or something" not just for MRE's anymore. From the shooter's prespective, it may as well be a hand grenade. No way to tell so fast, don't throw shit at armed persons, it may not end up as you expected.
archer1440  [Member]
4/23/2009 9:02:51 PM EST


What did the illegal do to deserve a fatal shot? What I could discern, he was about to throw a rock at the car?



He invaded our country and was about to assault a federal officer with a weapon at the ready. Darwinism at its best.
Melvinator2k0  [Team Member]
4/23/2009 9:09:01 PM EST
Originally Posted By Lindy_Hoppin_Gun_Nut:
Originally Posted By the-fly:
Well, here's an illegal alien that ate a 55gr FMJ from the USBP at point blank range. Agent went home alive, alien went 6 feet under, happy endings for everyone



Illegal go bye bye


What did the illegal do to deserve a fatal shot? What I could discern, he was about to throw a rock at the car?



Officer couldn't tell if he was going to throw the rock at the car or bash his head in.

Good shot.
mercdank  [Member]
4/23/2009 9:20:09 PM EST
damn id hate to see what a soft point of hollow point or a 75gr round would do
LtBlue425  [Team Member]
4/23/2009 9:56:15 PM EST
The photos look like an primitive autopsy room. If you've seen enough gunshot wounds you would not be shocked at the damage a high velocity bullet can cause. Well, at first you are but you get used to it just like decomping bodies.
LtBlue425  [Team Member]
4/23/2009 10:36:59 PM EST
Originally Posted By jcoffman55:
I am not a doctor, but I thought the bones looked like a pretty clean break. I would expect to see a "gap" where the bones are supposed to go together if a bullet that caused that nasty of a wound hit it. Like I said though not an expert. The pics are definitely m193 win though if the poster can be believed.


I was thinking the same thing. Weird things can happen when bullets, bones and trauma come together, but I'm thinking there's usually more of a "shatter" appearance when projectile hits the bone. The higher the velocity, the more the shatter effect, kind of like blood spatter patterns. Defects can be missed in films but a bullet nicking the bone might noticable. Can't spot any impact on the film shots but that's not unusual.
FreeBear  [Team Member]
4/24/2009 5:25:23 AM EST
Originally Posted By Lindy_Hoppin_Gun_Nut:

What did the illegal do to deserve a fatal shot? What I could discern, he was about to throw a rock at the car?


The POS was on our side of the border.


If this was Border Patrol SOP, we wouldn't have an illegal alien problem. But of course it isn't, because we don't want to offend Mexico's President or it's "citizens".

EzGoingKev  [Member]
4/24/2009 9:45:26 AM EST
Originally Posted By Lindy_Hoppin_Gun_Nut:
What did the illegal do to deserve a fatal shot? What I could discern, he was about to throw a rock at the car?

Looked to me like he was about to throw a rock at the officer.

Zhukov  [Moderator]
4/24/2009 12:08:53 PM EST
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT AMMO HERE, NOT LEGALITIES OF A SHOOTING.

Get back on topic.
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