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 What is the best bargain 223/556 ammo?
SF_Chris  [Member]
7/20/2004 10:21:26 PM EST
This stuff would be used in a Bushmaster.
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Kimber_45  [Member]
7/20/2004 10:31:38 PM EST
uh-oh this should be fun. hehe.
what's your budget?
SF_Chris  [Member]
7/20/2004 10:41:04 PM EST
Well, you know, this stuff won't be for extreme accuracy by any means, but I do want it to be reasonably accurate (3"-4"moa) I just want it for drills that I do in a standing position. I have heard of people buying 1k rnds for $80, now I don't know how good that stuff is, but if its, likle I said, fairly accurate, it will do. I will pay extra for the fairly accurate stuff if need be.
JoeInCT  [Member]
7/21/2004 1:50:52 AM EST
IMHO, "you get what you pay for" applies here.

Russian ammo for $100/1000 will give you unpredictable quality and only "hit the target" accuracy.

American commercial (FAE or Win USA) for $200/1000 will get you consistent quality and accuracy which won't win a match, but not far from it.

Unfortunately there's no in-between.

An SKS that cost you $150 will run fine with .10/rd ammo, because it was designed to do so. But don't expect a lot from an SKS and you won't be disappointed.

Presumably you are expecting much more from a Bushmaster that cost you $800 to $1,000 or more. If you feed it reliable and accurate ammo that costs .20/rd, seems to me you have come out way ahead in the cost/effect ratio.
AR_prof  [Member]
7/21/2004 3:01:58 AM EST
Reiterating JoeinCT, you get what you pay for. I wouldn't recommend poor ammo for reasons of safety. Broken cases, blown primers, misfeeds, FTEs aren't a prudent way to have fun with a high power rifle.

I'm on a budget, and don't shoot from the bench. I do the Army AQT: standing slow, sitting rapid, prone rapid, prone slow, where you don't need 1 MOA accuracy. My best luck (after much "after buying the cheap stuff reading the boards to find out why I was an idiot") is with the following:

Winchester white box (highly rated in the FAQ) R223R1(x). You can pay ~$16/100 at Wal Mart, cheaper online
Natec PCA (polymer cased ammo), just picked up 500 rds for $75 at the local gun show. Accurate and reliable
Black Hills blue box (remanufactured) the premier "cheap" ammo. Georgia Precision has it and will meet any price. I get mine from the local Gander Mt. (don't want to wait for mail). $11-12 for 50 rds. Simply wonderful. I've put about 1k rds of it through my rifle without any problem. So long as I do my part, no thrown shots, either.

Good luck!
Nate1  [Member]
7/21/2004 8:14:35 AM EST
Instead of listening to the Wolf bashers, I suggest you try some for yourself...
At 50 yrds I've found that it has the same point of impact as Q3131A out of my rifles...
Its not match quality stuff, but I have no problems hitting paper at 200 yards.

Hell I'm doing good to see the small 25M scaled silhouettes at 200 yards much less hit them...

I wouldn't use it for self defence, hunting, competition, etc, but 1000rnds and a free T-shirt for $100 its hard to beat for plinking.

www.ammunitionstore.com
I've ordered from here several times and have always been pleased.
If you shop around you may find slightly better deals.

Wolf ammo allows me to take less fortuante (non gun owners) to the range all the time and only burn $20-30 for 200-300 rnds. I enjoy introducing new people to shooting and their constitutional rights... Cheap ammo just helps me do it without hurting my wallet...

KClapp  [Team Member]
7/21/2004 8:20:38 AM EST

Originally Posted By AR_prof:
Black Hills blue box (remanufactured) the premier "cheap" ammo. Georgia Precision has it and will meet any price. I get mine from the local Gander Mt. (don't want to wait for mail). $11-12 for 50 rds. Simply wonderful. I've put about 1k rds of it through my rifle without any problem. So long as I do my part, no thrown shots, either.

Good luck!



Mmm ... you can get XM193 for less than BH blue box. BH may be nice, but on average it's .02-.03 a round more expensive than XM193 or Q3131A. Just my observation ...
Zhukov  [Team Member]
7/21/2004 11:15:28 AM EST

Originally Posted By JoeInCT:
IMHO, "you get what you pay for" applies here.

Russian ammo for $100/1000 will give you unpredictable quality and only "hit the target" accuracy.

American commercial (FAE or Win USA) for $200/1000 will get you consistent quality and accuracy which won't win a match, but not far from it.

Unfortunately there's no in-between.

An SKS that cost you $150 will run fine with .10/rd ammo, because it was designed to do so. But don't expect a lot from an SKS and you won't be disappointed.

Presumably you are expecting much more from a Bushmaster that cost you $800 to $1,000 or more. If you feed it reliable and accurate ammo that costs .20/rd, seems to me you have come out way ahead in the cost/effect ratio.



Oh boy. Where to start. So let's follow this reasoning down the line a little bit, shall we?

If $100/K ammo is "bad" and $200/K ammo is "good", then $500/K ammo must be "better", right? You are making a direct correlation between ammo price and consistency/accuracy. The question you must answer is can you PROVE that cheaper ammo such as Wolf is inferior?

One data point I can provide is the ammunition review thread I maintain. There are two brands of US manufactured ammunition, Federal and Remington UMC which are rated lower than several types of cheap imported ammo.

Can you explain that? After all, each of them cost more.

The other thing is that you need to define specific criteria as to what makes ammunition "better" or "worse". Is it accuracy? Reliability? Then you need to take into account the intended use. Someone needing high accuracy will laugh at your $200/K ammo and say that isn't nearly good enough. Another person may be more interested in punching holes in paper at close distances, and 3" groups at 100 yards is perfectly acceptable.

All ammunition should be reliable, no doubt, and there are those whose AR's don't like Wolf for example. But what do you say to the vast majority of those who have no problems with it in their guns? What would you tell me to convince me to spend $100 more per case when Wolf runs flawlessly in my rifle? I should point out that I was consistently hitting a 8" wide helium tank at 300 yards with a M4gery and an EOtech scope. I think the misses are more indicative of my shooting ability than the accuracy of my ammo.

I do not know if the ammunition provided by cheap manufacturers is inferior in composition. They aren't on par with the most top-rated US manufacturers, but this ammo is produced on the same large machinery that churned out milllions of rounds for the ComBloc armies - and I certainly don't think they would look kindly on poorly manufactured ammo. In any case, you need to QUANTIFY this difference to be of any use.

Are you one of those people who runs 93 Octane in your car because it's "better"? Or are you the kind of person who has decided that the car should run on the cheapest gas which will not cause your engine to knock?

And I don't buy the argument that cheap gun requires cheap ammo and expensive guns require expensive ammo? How is the SKS designed to use cheap ammo? How is the AR designed to use expensive ammo? Can you explain that?

[Edited to add]:

SF_Chris: The "best" bargain ammo is the one which meets your criteria and costs, well, less than others. I'm not trying to be a smartass, but I point out again that you need to define what you will use the ammo for. When it comes to general plinking/shooting, I recommend the absolute cheapest ammo you can buy which runs reliably in your rifle and has acceptable accuracy. For me, that's Wolf. Buy a couple of boxes and try it out. Use the ammunition review thread I quoted earlier to read the comments and make sure you read the Ammo Oracle if you haven't already done so.
Forest  [Team Member]
7/21/2004 12:47:56 PM EST

Originally Posted By KClapp:
Mmm ... you can get XM193 for less than BH blue box. BH may be nice, but on average it's .02-.03 a round more expensive than XM193 or Q3131A. Just my observation ...



And its more accurate (for those concerned about accuracy or 'long range').

It also has MUCH less flash (for those concerned about shooting at night).

I buy Wolf for much of my practicing, and BH for night shoots and 'serious stuff'.
JoeInCT  [Member]
7/21/2004 5:43:00 PM EST
I stand by what I said.

SF_Chris's question was, "Best Bargain Ammo".

I understand that to mean the best quality at the least cost.

That means employing the concept of Diminishing Returns.

I prefaced everything by stating it was my own opinion.

And I do my best to keep my replies short.



bgcc11  [Member]
7/22/2004 2:59:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By Nate1:
I wouldn't use it for self defence, hunting, competition, etc, but 1000rnds and a free T-shirt for $100 its hard to beat for plinking.

[



If the ammo is reliable and accurate to 3" at 100 yards, why wouldn't you use it in the above scenarios?
Zhukov  [Team Member]
7/22/2004 4:47:13 AM EST

Originally Posted By bgcc11:

Originally Posted By Nate1:
I wouldn't use it for self defence, hunting, competition, etc, but 1000rnds and a free T-shirt for $100 its hard to beat for plinking.

[



If the ammo is reliable and accurate to 3" at 100 yards, why wouldn't you use it in the above scenarios?



If you have to ask, then you haven't read the Ammunition FAQ. It's also tacked to the top of the page.
KClapp  [Team Member]
7/22/2004 7:28:51 AM EST

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By KClapp:
Mmm ... you can get XM193 for less than BH blue box. BH may be nice, but on average it's .02-.03 a round more expensive than XM193 or Q3131A. Just my observation ...



And its more accurate (for those concerned about accuracy or 'long range').

It also has MUCH less flash (for those concerned about shooting at night).

I buy Wolf for much of my practicing, and BH for night shoots and 'serious stuff'.



Excellent info Forrest! My GM gives volume discounts so I could get 500 rounds of BH blue box for the price of XM193 locally. What BH load is best for all purpose use?

I like Wolf for plinking also, but a good/better substitute for XM193 would be nice.
Rodent  [Member]
7/22/2004 7:38:07 AM EST
The L.G.A.* (*Large Government Agency) I work for specifically tells us not to run Wolf or Blazer through our weapons.
KClapp  [Team Member]
7/22/2004 9:55:46 AM EST

Originally Posted By Rodent:
The L.G.A.* (*Large Government Agency) I work for specifically tells us not to run Wolf or Blazer through our weapons.



As long as the LGA is footing the bill, I'd be shooting BH for sure. And red box, not blue box.
Forest  [Team Member]
7/22/2004 10:22:03 AM EST

Originally Posted By KClapp:
Excellent info Forrest! My GM gives volume discounts so I could get 500 rounds of BH blue box for the price of XM193 locally. What BH load is best for all purpose use?

I like Wolf for plinking also, but a good/better substitute for XM193 would be nice.



If your rifle can handle the 75gr Heavy Match Black Hills then go for it (that is what I use). Best terminal ballistics and $5 box cheaper than the 77gr SMK Black Hills load. The 77gr Nosler NATO load is 'the best' but you can only get that directly from Tommy at Georgia Precision'.

If your rifle doesn't like the 70+ gr bullets then go with the 68/69gr loads. My rifles well enough with the 68gr Black Hills load ($1-$2/box cheaper than the 75gr). Not all rifles like this round and if you want REAL precision try their 69gr SMK (which costs more than the 75gr OTM!).
HardShell  [Team Member]
7/22/2004 10:40:46 AM EST
Georgia Arms has .223 starting at about $150 for 1,000 rounds shipped in an ammo can. Some people here swear by this ammo & some here wouldn't touch it. I've had decent performance and zero problems with this ammunition in several years of using it, but YMMV as always.

www.georgia-arms.com/canned_heat.htm

FWIW, I buy bulk .308 (and other calibers) from them from time to time as well.
Forest  [Team Member]
7/22/2004 12:22:23 PM EST

Originally Posted By HardShell:
Georgia Arms has .223 starting at about $150 for 1,000 rounds shipped in an ammo can. .



Good point, I keep forgetting about their stuff. One of my buddies bought a ton of it and I've had a chance to shoot it. Good stuff for practice & plinking (especially when it was cheaper).
bgcc11  [Member]
7/23/2004 3:16:49 PM EST
What's the velocity of the canned heat varients?
avengeusa  [Team Member]
7/23/2004 5:03:31 PM EST
wolf works fine
1928A1  [Team Member]
7/24/2004 7:24:55 PM EST
I am fully aware of the reasons that different people use different ammo for "different" reasons.

If you are blasting machine gun targets...ie car bodies, old appliances...ect... then whatever will run your gun the cheapest without tearing it up. That is usually the NEW Wolf ammo.

Sit down with a 24" inch target upper and Wolf won't give you what you want. We know this.

Is the topic starter using a FA Bushy or a SA one? Is the topic starter shooting at paper mostly or arab terrorists? We will need more info to answer this question.


HardShell  [Team Member]
7/26/2004 5:48:37 AM EST

Originally Posted By bgcc11:
What's the velocity of the canned heat varients?



55gr Full Metal Jacket @ 3150 fps

62gr SS109 Green Tip FMJ @ 2800 fps

55gr Soft Point @ 3100 fps

52gr BT Hollow Point Match @ 3200 fps

68gr BT Hollow Point Match @ 2600 fps

55gr Ballistic Tip @ 3200 fps


RS39  [Team Member]
7/26/2004 6:11:25 AM EST
Barnaul 62gr SP, 2moa in my Armalite. Compare to 1.5moa for the .15-.20 brass stuff, and 1moa on match ammo.
criley  [Team Member]
7/26/2004 10:25:11 AM EST
Winchester q3131a is now on sale at Bass Pro shops for $144 per thousand (sale dates vary with locations). If you apply for a Bass Pro Shop credit card they will knock 10% off your initial purchase.

I did this last year and paid about $135 per thousand out the door. Bought a bunch.

ColSanders  [Member]
7/26/2004 2:49:37 PM EST
Wal-mart sells WWB 55gr .223 in 40 round value packs for $7.58, that is quality plinking stuff and runs close behind Q3131A in performance, very similar, maybe slightly less hot, maybe SLIGHTLY less accurate. That is what I have started buying for practice. It comes out to around $100 for 500rnds, and that is by the box so you can try it out first and see if you even like it.

I highly recommend shooting 50-100rnds of any given practice ammo(specifically wolf, Silver Bear or any other cheap stuff) before you go out and buy a case or two, that way you are happy with it's function in your specific weapon.
ColSanders  [Member]
7/26/2004 2:50:11 PM EST

Originally Posted By criley:
Winchester q3131a is now on sale at Bass Pro shops for $144 per thousand (sale dates vary with locations). If you apply for a Bass Pro Shop credit card they will knock 10% off your initial purchase.

I did this last year and paid about $135 per thousand out the door. Bought a bunch.




That is an awesome price!!
bgcc11  [Member]
7/26/2004 4:01:25 PM EST

Originally Posted By criley:
Winchester q3131a is now on sale at Bass Pro shops for $144 per thousand (sale dates vary with locations). If you apply for a Bass Pro Shop credit card they will knock 10% off your initial purchase.

I did this last year and paid about $135 per thousand out the door. Bought a bunch.




I don't see this on the web site.
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