Archived Posts » 59,859,448
Why have a Piston System?
2/28/2012 6:40:02 PM
I have several AR's, My current work weapon is an HK 416 . I have never had a problem with a gas tube system, or the piston system when properly maintained. I want to add another AR to my personal collection, Im considering a piston AR, but for the price, i can buy or build a very nice gas system.
Ive read all the data and propaganda, but id rather hear from the folks who actually have and use AR's
and I verywell might just buy a piston system because i dont have one
. But im intrested in some opinions
Thanks folks
Ive read all the data and propaganda, but id rather hear from the folks who actually have and use AR's
and I verywell might just buy a piston system because i dont have one
. But im intrested in some opinions
Thanks folks
2/28/2012 6:52:20 PM
Originally Posted By Grunt1775:
I have several AR's, My current work weapon is an HK 416 . I have never had a problem with a gas tube system, or the piston system when properly maintained. I want to add another AR to my personal collection, Im considering a piston AR, but for the price, i can buy or build a very nice gas system.
Ive read all the data and propaganda, but id rather hear from the folks who actually have and use AR's
and I verywell might just buy a piston system because i dont have one. But im intrested in some opinions
Thanks folks
Depends on what you are looking for. Very few situations where a piston system will outperform a DI weapon, but it gives nothing up to DI except a couple ounces in weight. If you plan on doing amphibious assaults where you are receiving fire before getting out of the water, or if you like to shoot in sub zero temps, or if you have high volume fire as a regular occurrence, a piston system might not give you too much over the DI gun. I will even go so far that very few piston systems even offer that much over a DI rifle. Only the best sorted systems will allow you to see a benefit. With all that said, it is nice to have company in this forum, so if it tickles your bum to buy one, do it. If you get a nice one you will not regret it.
I have several AR's, My current work weapon is an HK 416 . I have never had a problem with a gas tube system, or the piston system when properly maintained. I want to add another AR to my personal collection, Im considering a piston AR, but for the price, i can buy or build a very nice gas system.
Ive read all the data and propaganda, but id rather hear from the folks who actually have and use AR's
and I verywell might just buy a piston system because i dont have one
. But im intrested in some opinions
Thanks folks
2/29/2012 2:38:37 AM
I have bad sinuses, every AR I have is piston for that reason.
2/29/2012 3:02:08 AM
I've got both DI and piston ARs and feel each has their own merits. My pistons, LWRC and POF are what many consider heavy but since I'm not humping with them it's no big deal. I've used the POF 415 w/14.5" barrel and the 9SX rail in a carbine class and after 6 hrs and 400 rounds I think the weight was a factor towards the end. I really like the ease of cleaning pistons compared to the DI. Personally I feel the only advantage of DI is they are lighter and though I have no first hand experience, I've read there are light weight pistons out there.
2/29/2012 10:44:45 AM
Personal preference. I like that the gasses are not expelled in the chamber near as much as the regular gas system. I own an addax tactical carbine piston upper with 1000 rounds through it and no hiccups so far. Also, the ability to select a different setting for various different bullet weights is nice. I think the piston system is the best compromise between an ak and ar. The hk416 testing was pretty impressive from what I've seen. You can't stuff a gas ar into sand, mud, water, etc and expect it to fire like you can with certain piston systems. Overall, I would say peace of mind is a great reason to purchase one.
Just my .02
Just my .02
2/29/2012 12:03:04 PM
After owning both DI and GP ARs over the past 5 years. The DI ARs simply get very little range time in comparison. This is mainly due to the ease of cleaning. I've never had any reliability problems with the DI ARs. I'm just lazy.
2/29/2012 2:30:09 PM
The ease of shooting suppressed. Gas blown back into the shooters face is reduced, can be regulated and is vented out of the gas block instead of being shot into the bolt like with D.I.
2/29/2012 3:47:35 PM
Piston because I am OCD about my guns being super clean (I know, an AR doesn't have to be spotless - but I am what I am...). The piston system is a much quicker clean for me. Unless the day comes that my piston AR demonstrates piston-related failure, it will remain my go-to firearm.
2/29/2012 8:38:04 PM
Originally Posted By Stryker187:
I've got both DI and piston ARs and feel each has their own merits. My pistons, LWRC and POF are what many consider heavy but since I'm not humping with them it's no big deal. I've used the POF 415 w/14.5" barrel and the 9SX rail in a carbine class and after 6 hrs and 400 rounds I think the weight was a factor towards the end. I really like the ease of cleaning pistons compared to the DI. Personally I feel the only advantage of DI is they are lighter and though I have no first hand experience, I've read there are light weight pistons out there.
I've got both DI and piston ARs and feel each has their own merits. My pistons, LWRC and POF are what many consider heavy but since I'm not humping with them it's no big deal. I've used the POF 415 w/14.5" barrel and the 9SX rail in a carbine class and after 6 hrs and 400 rounds I think the weight was a factor towards the end. I really like the ease of cleaning pistons compared to the DI. Personally I feel the only advantage of DI is they are lighter and though I have no first hand experience, I've read there are light weight pistons out there.
my adams evo ultra lite is not noticebly any heavier than my completely stock bushmaster m4 with plastic hanguards. My evo weighs 6.8 lbs with magpul sights.
3/1/2012 11:26:10 PM
I love a clean receiver and love all my other piston guns. I just went to the range with the old A2 and it sucked to clean it. I was in supply and worked the arms room in the Army and Guard and it irks me to know end that it just isn't ever clean enough. Now it could be said it's dirty under my front grip but the DI never checked there
. I also was in when the DI sucked and I can't get that out of my head either. Looking back it was 99.9% mag related but even on a blank firing exercise, the DI would gum up. The AA piston won't, and again strange for me to care as I'll never shoot enough rounds to plug either, but I just love how simple and easy the piston is. My oldest piston is a WW2 G43 so it's just as proven as any DI system. I wouldn't get rid of either.
. I also was in when the DI sucked and I can't get that out of my head either. Looking back it was 99.9% mag related but even on a blank firing exercise, the DI would gum up. The AA piston won't, and again strange for me to care as I'll never shoot enough rounds to plug either, but I just love how simple and easy the piston is. My oldest piston is a WW2 G43 so it's just as proven as any DI system. I wouldn't get rid of either.3/2/2012 1:35:14 AM
Originally Posted By marko16:
I love a clean receiver and love all my other piston guns. I just went to the range with the old A2 and it sucked to clean it. I was in supply and worked the arms room in the Army and Guard and it irks me to know end that it just isn't ever clean enough. Now it could be said it's dirty under my front grip but the DI never checked there. I also was in when the DI sucked and I can't get that out of my head either. Looking back it was 99.9% mag related but even on a blank firing exercise, the DI would gum up. The AA piston won't, and again strange for me to care as I'll never shoot enough rounds to plug either, but I just love how simple and easy the piston is. My oldest piston is a WW2 G43 so it's just as proven as any DI system. I wouldn't get rid of either.
I love a clean receiver and love all my other piston guns. I just went to the range with the old A2 and it sucked to clean it. I was in supply and worked the arms room in the Army and Guard and it irks me to know end that it just isn't ever clean enough. Now it could be said it's dirty under my front grip but the DI never checked there
. I also was in when the DI sucked and I can't get that out of my head either. Looking back it was 99.9% mag related but even on a blank firing exercise, the DI would gum up. The AA piston won't, and again strange for me to care as I'll never shoot enough rounds to plug either, but I just love how simple and easy the piston is. My oldest piston is a WW2 G43 so it's just as proven as any DI system. I wouldn't get rid of either.blank firing is known to gum everything up so much faster than normal shooting, that said you dont need the white glove clean in a real rifle. i know the military teaches it but its not needed. ive never spent more than 20 minutes cleaning a DI rifle and never had troubles
that said if you enjoy pistons thats great.
3/2/2012 3:38:00 PM
I love that the gas stays away from me. I've been shooting Wolf lately and barely smell it on my Huldra upper. The ease of cleaning is also really nice. I just pull the handguards off (plastic M4 style), wipe them out and wipe off the piston parts. There really isn't much need to clean the bcg but I do anyways. And there's only a fraction of the carbon compared to a DI gun.
To my knowledge, it's not proven yet, but keeping the bcg cool during firing must count for something. It wouldn't even get warm enough to fully melt my Frog Lube paste. And if you've ever used Frog Lube , you know a hair drier will do it. So the bcg really is that cool during firing.
Do they mechanically out perform DI guns? I'm not sure, I really have no proof.
Do they mechanically under perform DI guns? I'm not sure, I really have no proof.
But like I said, outside of shooting, they are really nice.
To my knowledge, it's not proven yet, but keeping the bcg cool during firing must count for something. It wouldn't even get warm enough to fully melt my Frog Lube paste. And if you've ever used Frog Lube , you know a hair drier will do it. So the bcg really is that cool during firing.
Do they mechanically out perform DI guns? I'm not sure, I really have no proof.
Do they mechanically under perform DI guns? I'm not sure, I really have no proof.
But like I said, outside of shooting, they are really nice.
3/2/2012 10:05:02 PM
Buttstock, trigger, 1/7 barrel, foreward assist, rail, optic, and on and on––why is changing the gas system any different. An argument can be made not to do any of those mods I love, but it's still better for the most important person to my rifle––me.
3/3/2012 10:06:42 AM
The only reason I can find to have a piston system (and I have two) is the piston systems keep the rifle clean inside the receivers. That's it. Can be cleaned every 5000 rounds I'm told although I do wipe mine down more frequently.
More reliable (perhaps) with less intensive maintenance. But my 20+ year old M4 Carbine (bottom) still functions flawlessly with the original system.
–– Chuck
More reliable (perhaps) with less intensive maintenance. But my 20+ year old M4 Carbine (bottom) still functions flawlessly with the original system.
–– Chuck
3/3/2012 11:44:46 AM
Gas Piston Pros & Cons vs DI:
Pros
Ease of Cleaning / Vents gas out front
Variable gas settings for suppressed use
Advantageous mechanics for Full Auto shooting and SBRs
Cons
A few ounces heavier up front
Slightly different recoil impulse***
More parts and components
Heavy reliance on manufacturer for Parts and Service
They are both good systems. The fact is, whether you have a DI or Piston, you are still going to have malfunctions in the field (i.e., shooting a 1000rd class) and you are going to have parts that eventually wear out. That being said, I say have some of both. For instance, my next two planned purchases are the SCAR 17 .308 and the Knights Armament Block III SBR. Get what you can afford and what you like - Happy Shooting!
*** - Depending on barrel length and type of gas system. For instance, I have found there to be slightly more of a recoil impulse in a 16" barrel with a Carbine length gas system vs DI; Contrastingly, I have found there to be basically the same recoil impulse in the 16" barreled Mid-Length gas piston system vs the DI middys I have used. Changes in the recoil impulse can be battled by using some of today's best muzzle devices - MB556k, Triple Tap, or Battle Comp. Or, if you're a real wimp, get a hydraulic buffer.
Pros
Ease of Cleaning / Vents gas out front
Variable gas settings for suppressed use
Advantageous mechanics for Full Auto shooting and SBRs
Cons
A few ounces heavier up front
Slightly different recoil impulse***
More parts and components
Heavy reliance on manufacturer for Parts and Service
They are both good systems. The fact is, whether you have a DI or Piston, you are still going to have malfunctions in the field (i.e., shooting a 1000rd class) and you are going to have parts that eventually wear out. That being said, I say have some of both. For instance, my next two planned purchases are the SCAR 17 .308 and the Knights Armament Block III SBR. Get what you can afford and what you like - Happy Shooting!
*** - Depending on barrel length and type of gas system. For instance, I have found there to be slightly more of a recoil impulse in a 16" barrel with a Carbine length gas system vs DI; Contrastingly, I have found there to be basically the same recoil impulse in the 16" barreled Mid-Length gas piston system vs the DI middys I have used. Changes in the recoil impulse can be battled by using some of today's best muzzle devices - MB556k, Triple Tap, or Battle Comp. Or, if you're a real wimp, get a hydraulic buffer.
3/3/2012 1:31:07 PM
Not all pistol systems are variable. Neither of my LWRC carbines have any way to adjust. Nor do they need one.
–– Chuck
–– Chuck
3/3/2012 2:55:40 PM
Originally Posted By Chuck:
Not all pistol systems are variable. Neither of my LWRC carbines have any way to adjust. Nor do they need one.
–– Chuck
Not all pistol systems are variable. Neither of my LWRC carbines have any way to adjust. Nor do they need one.
–– Chuck
Same goes for Osprey
3/3/2012 3:12:37 PM
Top reason: Piston rifles are much cleaner. This can can make them more reliable in some situations, and definitely more of pleasure to shoot knowing they won't take hours to clean. Other than that, I don't think one is better than the other. Pat Rodgers is a big fan of lube-soaked DI guns and they get nasty. There is an article about a Bravo Company DI gun they ran for thousands of rounds without cleaning and it did fabulous. The one thing they did was lube the eff out of it. For Arizona, lube + dust=mud in the gun. I have all the BCG's in my piston guns Robar NP3 coated. My POF and Barrett Rec7 came with the BCG's NP3'd from the factory. I had my LWRC M6A2 upper coated. All my AK bolts are coated. I run very light lube on them, but I am told they will run just fine with no lube, which could be a huge advantage in the desert. I don't know of anyone that has ever tested the NP3 guns without lube for high round counts though.
Most piston systems use a one-piece carrier, which eliminates a potential weak spot for a DI gun if the key isn't properly staked.
The last thing that 99.99999 % of us will NEVER encounter is crazy-sustained, full auto fire. With a heavy contour barrel, the gas tube will melt at about 900 rounds, turning the weapon into a single shot. With an M4 contour barrel, the barrel will blow up at about 500 rounds prior to the gas tube melting.
Most piston systems use a one-piece carrier, which eliminates a potential weak spot for a DI gun if the key isn't properly staked.
The last thing that 99.99999 % of us will NEVER encounter is crazy-sustained, full auto fire. With a heavy contour barrel, the gas tube will melt at about 900 rounds, turning the weapon into a single shot. With an M4 contour barrel, the barrel will blow up at about 500 rounds prior to the gas tube melting.
3/3/2012 5:22:36 PM
Faster follow-up shots. From the LWRC forum:
...recoil is recoil. There is no more or less recoil in a DI vs Piston gun. The difference being that the recoil is presented and over with much sooner with a piston gun. With professional shooters, operators that shoot a lot will in almost every case have much shorter splits with our gun than a DI M4 or even the long recoiling SCAR. The DI carrier generally speeds up for half of its travel, then only has half left to slow down. In general a stoner rifle bottoms out in the buffer tube causing muzzle flip. A piston gun is going full tilt through unlocking and thus has almost the whole length of the carrier's travel to slow down and any of the bottoming out effect is generally eliminated.
With an Aimpoint or similar, try this. Center up on your target and fire. As soon as your dot returns fire again. Time your splits. Do the same with a long recoiling gun. It takes much longer for your sights to settle back in. This even works when firing Auto bursts. You will amaze yourself how fast you can shoot. Your dot will quickly bounce and right back on target.
These are just true facts you will have trouble contesting if you shoot properly with a good stance or position. If The difference is mental because you are use to a long recoiling firearm that spreads the recoil impulse over a longer time frame.
Give it a try! You will be shocked. Once you try that, start transitioning to different targets as fast as you are able to do in a deliberate accurate manner. It may seem counter intuitive but is absolutely true.
...recoil is recoil. There is no more or less recoil in a DI vs Piston gun. The difference being that the recoil is presented and over with much sooner with a piston gun. With professional shooters, operators that shoot a lot will in almost every case have much shorter splits with our gun than a DI M4 or even the long recoiling SCAR. The DI carrier generally speeds up for half of its travel, then only has half left to slow down. In general a stoner rifle bottoms out in the buffer tube causing muzzle flip. A piston gun is going full tilt through unlocking and thus has almost the whole length of the carrier's travel to slow down and any of the bottoming out effect is generally eliminated.
With an Aimpoint or similar, try this. Center up on your target and fire. As soon as your dot returns fire again. Time your splits. Do the same with a long recoiling gun. It takes much longer for your sights to settle back in. This even works when firing Auto bursts. You will amaze yourself how fast you can shoot. Your dot will quickly bounce and right back on target.
These are just true facts you will have trouble contesting if you shoot properly with a good stance or position. If The difference is mental because you are use to a long recoiling firearm that spreads the recoil impulse over a longer time frame.
Give it a try! You will be shocked. Once you try that, start transitioning to different targets as fast as you are able to do in a deliberate accurate manner. It may seem counter intuitive but is absolutely true.
3/3/2012 8:29:09 PM
Originally Posted By 300LW:
Faster follow-up shots. From the LWRC forum:
...recoil is recoil. There is no more or less recoil in a DI vs Piston gun. The difference being that the recoil is presented and over with much sooner with a piston gun. With professional shooters, operators that shoot a lot will in almost every case have much shorter splits with our gun than a DI M4 or even the long recoiling SCAR. The DI carrier generally speeds up for half of its travel, then only has half left to slow down. In general a stoner rifle bottoms out in the buffer tube causing muzzle flip. A piston gun is going full tilt through unlocking and thus has almost the whole length of the carrier's travel to slow down and any of the bottoming out effect is generally eliminated.
With an Aimpoint or similar, try this. Center up on your target and fire. As soon as your dot returns fire again. Time your splits. Do the same with a long recoiling gun. It takes much longer for your sights to settle back in. This even works when firing Auto bursts. You will amaze yourself how fast you can shoot. Your dot will quickly bounce and right back on target.
These are just true facts you will have trouble contesting if you shoot properly with a good stance or position. If The difference is mental because you are use to a long recoiling firearm that spreads the recoil impulse over a longer time frame.
Give it a try! You will be shocked. Once you try that, start transitioning to different targets as fast as you are able to do in a deliberate accurate manner. It may seem counter intuitive but is absolutely true.
Faster follow-up shots. From the LWRC forum:
...recoil is recoil. There is no more or less recoil in a DI vs Piston gun. The difference being that the recoil is presented and over with much sooner with a piston gun. With professional shooters, operators that shoot a lot will in almost every case have much shorter splits with our gun than a DI M4 or even the long recoiling SCAR. The DI carrier generally speeds up for half of its travel, then only has half left to slow down. In general a stoner rifle bottoms out in the buffer tube causing muzzle flip. A piston gun is going full tilt through unlocking and thus has almost the whole length of the carrier's travel to slow down and any of the bottoming out effect is generally eliminated.
With an Aimpoint or similar, try this. Center up on your target and fire. As soon as your dot returns fire again. Time your splits. Do the same with a long recoiling gun. It takes much longer for your sights to settle back in. This even works when firing Auto bursts. You will amaze yourself how fast you can shoot. Your dot will quickly bounce and right back on target.
These are just true facts you will have trouble contesting if you shoot properly with a good stance or position. If The difference is mental because you are use to a long recoiling firearm that spreads the recoil impulse over a longer time frame.
Give it a try! You will be shocked. Once you try that, start transitioning to different targets as fast as you are able to do in a deliberate accurate manner. It may seem counter intuitive but is absolutely true.
got a link to that?
Originally Posted By Swat_dude:
Top reason: Piston rifles are much cleaner. This can can make them more reliable in some situations, and definitely more of pleasure to shoot knowing they won't take hours to clean. Other than that, I don't think one is better than the other. Pat Rodgers is a big fan of lube-soaked DI guns and they get nasty. There is an article about a Bravo Company DI gun they ran for thousands of rounds without cleaning and it did fabulous. The one thing they did was lube the eff out of it. For Arizona, lube + dust=mud in the gun. I have all the BCG's in my piston guns Robar NP3 coated. My POF and Barrett Rec7 came with the BCG's NP3'd from the factory. I had my LWRC M6A2 upper coated. All my AK bolts are coated. I run very light lube on them, but I am told they will run just fine with no lube, which could be a huge advantage in the desert. I don't know of anyone that has ever tested the NP3 guns without lube for high round counts though.
Most piston systems use a one-piece carrier, which eliminates a potential weak spot for a DI gun if the key isn't properly staked.
The last thing that 99.99999 % of us will NEVER encounter is crazy-sustained, full auto fire. With a heavy contour barrel, the gas tube will melt at about 900 rounds, turning the weapon into a single shot. With an M4 contour barrel, the barrel will blow up at about 500 rounds prior to the gas tube melting.
Top reason: Piston rifles are much cleaner. This can can make them more reliable in some situations, and definitely more of pleasure to shoot knowing they won't take hours to clean. Other than that, I don't think one is better than the other. Pat Rodgers is a big fan of lube-soaked DI guns and they get nasty. There is an article about a Bravo Company DI gun they ran for thousands of rounds without cleaning and it did fabulous. The one thing they did was lube the eff out of it. For Arizona, lube + dust=mud in the gun. I have all the BCG's in my piston guns Robar NP3 coated. My POF and Barrett Rec7 came with the BCG's NP3'd from the factory. I had my LWRC M6A2 upper coated. All my AK bolts are coated. I run very light lube on them, but I am told they will run just fine with no lube, which could be a huge advantage in the desert. I don't know of anyone that has ever tested the NP3 guns without lube for high round counts though.
Most piston systems use a one-piece carrier, which eliminates a potential weak spot for a DI gun if the key isn't properly staked.
The last thing that 99.99999 % of us will NEVER encounter is crazy-sustained, full auto fire. With a heavy contour barrel, the gas tube will melt at about 900 rounds, turning the weapon into a single shot. With an M4 contour barrel, the barrel will blow up at about 500 rounds prior to the gas tube melting.
i have never taken hours to clean my rifle. 10-30 minutes max
guess you missed the why i love my LMT thread of the 10,000 round count in the desert with no malfunctions?? http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/564927_Why_I_like_my_LMT___.html
about the automatic, 900 rounds is nearly 5 combat loads, 500 is nearly 3 combat loads. no one will ever fire that many rounds on fully automatic and still be able to hold their rifles to reach those round counts.
there is nothing wrong with a piston gun, but things like Swat posted make no sense, all they do is make new people here believe something that is not true. I am a fan of PWS though from the standpoint of its a fun rifle, not something that is needed.
3/3/2012 9:08:30 PM
Get an LMT MRP CQB and give yourself gas system, caliber, and barrel length swap options. Place an order for a piston upper and a 300BLK barrel for an additional $344 at the same time.
3/3/2012 10:19:04 PM
For me it was simple. I wanted something that has been proven through history to be more reliable and run longer harder. I don't like to take unnecessary chances if I don't have to.
3/3/2012 10:35:23 PM
Originally Posted By sinlessorrow:
got a link to that?
i have never taken hours to clean my rifle. 10-30 minutes max
guess you missed the why i love my LMT thread of the 10,000 round count in the desert with no malfunctions?? http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/564927_Why_I_like_my_LMT___.html
about the automatic, 900 rounds is nearly 10 combat loads, 500 is nearly 5 combat loads. no one will ever fire that many rounds on fully automatic and still be able to hold their rifles to reach those round counts.
there is nothing wrong with a piston gun, but things like Swat posted make no sense, all they do is make new people here believe something that is not true. I am a fan of PWS though from the standpoint of its a fun rifle, not something that is needed.
When I was a Marine I carried just over 300rds of ammo when on patrol or doing anything with my rifle, unless I was standing guard duty, then it was just one rifle, 1 magazine in the rifle and whatever the pouch carried on the duty belt.
Originally Posted By 300LW:
Faster follow-up shots. From the LWRC forum:
...recoil is recoil. There is no more or less recoil in a DI vs Piston gun. The difference being that the recoil is presented and over with much sooner with a piston gun. With professional shooters, operators that shoot a lot will in almost every case have much shorter splits with our gun than a DI M4 or even the long recoiling SCAR. The DI carrier generally speeds up for half of its travel, then only has half left to slow down. In general a stoner rifle bottoms out in the buffer tube causing muzzle flip. A piston gun is going full tilt through unlocking and thus has almost the whole length of the carrier's travel to slow down and any of the bottoming out effect is generally eliminated.
With an Aimpoint or similar, try this. Center up on your target and fire. As soon as your dot returns fire again. Time your splits. Do the same with a long recoiling gun. It takes much longer for your sights to settle back in. This even works when firing Auto bursts. You will amaze yourself how fast you can shoot. Your dot will quickly bounce and right back on target.
These are just true facts you will have trouble contesting if you shoot properly with a good stance or position. If The difference is mental because you are use to a long recoiling firearm that spreads the recoil impulse over a longer time frame.
Give it a try! You will be shocked. Once you try that, start transitioning to different targets as fast as you are able to do in a deliberate accurate manner. It may seem counter intuitive but is absolutely true.
Faster follow-up shots. From the LWRC forum:
...recoil is recoil. There is no more or less recoil in a DI vs Piston gun. The difference being that the recoil is presented and over with much sooner with a piston gun. With professional shooters, operators that shoot a lot will in almost every case have much shorter splits with our gun than a DI M4 or even the long recoiling SCAR. The DI carrier generally speeds up for half of its travel, then only has half left to slow down. In general a stoner rifle bottoms out in the buffer tube causing muzzle flip. A piston gun is going full tilt through unlocking and thus has almost the whole length of the carrier's travel to slow down and any of the bottoming out effect is generally eliminated.
With an Aimpoint or similar, try this. Center up on your target and fire. As soon as your dot returns fire again. Time your splits. Do the same with a long recoiling gun. It takes much longer for your sights to settle back in. This even works when firing Auto bursts. You will amaze yourself how fast you can shoot. Your dot will quickly bounce and right back on target.
These are just true facts you will have trouble contesting if you shoot properly with a good stance or position. If The difference is mental because you are use to a long recoiling firearm that spreads the recoil impulse over a longer time frame.
Give it a try! You will be shocked. Once you try that, start transitioning to different targets as fast as you are able to do in a deliberate accurate manner. It may seem counter intuitive but is absolutely true.
got a link to that?
Originally Posted By Swat_dude:
Top reason: Piston rifles are much cleaner. This can can make them more reliable in some situations, and definitely more of pleasure to shoot knowing they won't take hours to clean. Other than that, I don't think one is better than the other. Pat Rodgers is a big fan of lube-soaked DI guns and they get nasty. There is an article about a Bravo Company DI gun they ran for thousands of rounds without cleaning and it did fabulous. The one thing they did was lube the eff out of it. For Arizona, lube + dust=mud in the gun. I have all the BCG's in my piston guns Robar NP3 coated. My POF and Barrett Rec7 came with the BCG's NP3'd from the factory. I had my LWRC M6A2 upper coated. All my AK bolts are coated. I run very light lube on them, but I am told they will run just fine with no lube, which could be a huge advantage in the desert. I don't know of anyone that has ever tested the NP3 guns without lube for high round counts though.
Most piston systems use a one-piece carrier, which eliminates a potential weak spot for a DI gun if the key isn't properly staked.
The last thing that 99.99999 % of us will NEVER encounter is crazy-sustained, full auto fire. With a heavy contour barrel, the gas tube will melt at about 900 rounds, turning the weapon into a single shot. With an M4 contour barrel, the barrel will blow up at about 500 rounds prior to the gas tube melting.
Top reason: Piston rifles are much cleaner. This can can make them more reliable in some situations, and definitely more of pleasure to shoot knowing they won't take hours to clean. Other than that, I don't think one is better than the other. Pat Rodgers is a big fan of lube-soaked DI guns and they get nasty. There is an article about a Bravo Company DI gun they ran for thousands of rounds without cleaning and it did fabulous. The one thing they did was lube the eff out of it. For Arizona, lube + dust=mud in the gun. I have all the BCG's in my piston guns Robar NP3 coated. My POF and Barrett Rec7 came with the BCG's NP3'd from the factory. I had my LWRC M6A2 upper coated. All my AK bolts are coated. I run very light lube on them, but I am told they will run just fine with no lube, which could be a huge advantage in the desert. I don't know of anyone that has ever tested the NP3 guns without lube for high round counts though.
Most piston systems use a one-piece carrier, which eliminates a potential weak spot for a DI gun if the key isn't properly staked.
The last thing that 99.99999 % of us will NEVER encounter is crazy-sustained, full auto fire. With a heavy contour barrel, the gas tube will melt at about 900 rounds, turning the weapon into a single shot. With an M4 contour barrel, the barrel will blow up at about 500 rounds prior to the gas tube melting.
i have never taken hours to clean my rifle. 10-30 minutes max
guess you missed the why i love my LMT thread of the 10,000 round count in the desert with no malfunctions?? http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/564927_Why_I_like_my_LMT___.html
about the automatic, 900 rounds is nearly 10 combat loads, 500 is nearly 5 combat loads. no one will ever fire that many rounds on fully automatic and still be able to hold their rifles to reach those round counts.
there is nothing wrong with a piston gun, but things like Swat posted make no sense, all they do is make new people here believe something that is not true. I am a fan of PWS though from the standpoint of its a fun rifle, not something that is needed.
3/3/2012 10:41:59 PM
Originally Posted By Sleeper396:
Originally Posted By sinlessorrow:
got a link to that?
i have never taken hours to clean my rifle. 10-30 minutes max
guess you missed the why i love my LMT thread of the 10,000 round count in the desert with no malfunctions?? http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/564927_Why_I_like_my_LMT___.html
about the automatic, 900 rounds is nearly 10 combat loads, 500 is nearly 5 combat loads. no one will ever fire that many rounds on fully automatic and still be able to hold their rifles to reach those round counts.
there is nothing wrong with a piston gun, but things like Swat posted make no sense, all they do is make new people here believe something that is not true. I am a fan of PWS though from the standpoint of its a fun rifle, not something that is needed.
When I was a Marine I carried just over 300rds of ammo when on patrol or doing anything with my rifle, unless I was standing guard duty, then it was just one rifle, 1 magazine in the rifle and whatever the pouch carried on the duty belt.
Originally Posted By 300LW:
Faster follow-up shots. From the LWRC forum:
...recoil is recoil. There is no more or less recoil in a DI vs Piston gun. The difference being that the recoil is presented and over with much sooner with a piston gun. With professional shooters, operators that shoot a lot will in almost every case have much shorter splits with our gun than a DI M4 or even the long recoiling SCAR. The DI carrier generally speeds up for half of its travel, then only has half left to slow down. In general a stoner rifle bottoms out in the buffer tube causing muzzle flip. A piston gun is going full tilt through unlocking and thus has almost the whole length of the carrier's travel to slow down and any of the bottoming out effect is generally eliminated.
With an Aimpoint or similar, try this. Center up on your target and fire. As soon as your dot returns fire again. Time your splits. Do the same with a long recoiling gun. It takes much longer for your sights to settle back in. This even works when firing Auto bursts. You will amaze yourself how fast you can shoot. Your dot will quickly bounce and right back on target.
These are just true facts you will have trouble contesting if you shoot properly with a good stance or position. If The difference is mental because you are use to a long recoiling firearm that spreads the recoil impulse over a longer time frame.
Give it a try! You will be shocked. Once you try that, start transitioning to different targets as fast as you are able to do in a deliberate accurate manner. It may seem counter intuitive but is absolutely true.
Faster follow-up shots. From the LWRC forum:
...recoil is recoil. There is no more or less recoil in a DI vs Piston gun. The difference being that the recoil is presented and over with much sooner with a piston gun. With professional shooters, operators that shoot a lot will in almost every case have much shorter splits with our gun than a DI M4 or even the long recoiling SCAR. The DI carrier generally speeds up for half of its travel, then only has half left to slow down. In general a stoner rifle bottoms out in the buffer tube causing muzzle flip. A piston gun is going full tilt through unlocking and thus has almost the whole length of the carrier's travel to slow down and any of the bottoming out effect is generally eliminated.
With an Aimpoint or similar, try this. Center up on your target and fire. As soon as your dot returns fire again. Time your splits. Do the same with a long recoiling gun. It takes much longer for your sights to settle back in. This even works when firing Auto bursts. You will amaze yourself how fast you can shoot. Your dot will quickly bounce and right back on target.
These are just true facts you will have trouble contesting if you shoot properly with a good stance or position. If The difference is mental because you are use to a long recoiling firearm that spreads the recoil impulse over a longer time frame.
Give it a try! You will be shocked. Once you try that, start transitioning to different targets as fast as you are able to do in a deliberate accurate manner. It may seem counter intuitive but is absolutely true.
got a link to that?
Originally Posted By Swat_dude:
Top reason: Piston rifles are much cleaner. This can can make them more reliable in some situations, and definitely more of pleasure to shoot knowing they won't take hours to clean. Other than that, I don't think one is better than the other. Pat Rodgers is a big fan of lube-soaked DI guns and they get nasty. There is an article about a Bravo Company DI gun they ran for thousands of rounds without cleaning and it did fabulous. The one thing they did was lube the eff out of it. For Arizona, lube + dust=mud in the gun. I have all the BCG's in my piston guns Robar NP3 coated. My POF and Barrett Rec7 came with the BCG's NP3'd from the factory. I had my LWRC M6A2 upper coated. All my AK bolts are coated. I run very light lube on them, but I am told they will run just fine with no lube, which could be a huge advantage in the desert. I don't know of anyone that has ever tested the NP3 guns without lube for high round counts though.
Most piston systems use a one-piece carrier, which eliminates a potential weak spot for a DI gun if the key isn't properly staked.
The last thing that 99.99999 % of us will NEVER encounter is crazy-sustained, full auto fire. With a heavy contour barrel, the gas tube will melt at about 900 rounds, turning the weapon into a single shot. With an M4 contour barrel, the barrel will blow up at about 500 rounds prior to the gas tube melting.
Top reason: Piston rifles are much cleaner. This can can make them more reliable in some situations, and definitely more of pleasure to shoot knowing they won't take hours to clean. Other than that, I don't think one is better than the other. Pat Rodgers is a big fan of lube-soaked DI guns and they get nasty. There is an article about a Bravo Company DI gun they ran for thousands of rounds without cleaning and it did fabulous. The one thing they did was lube the eff out of it. For Arizona, lube + dust=mud in the gun. I have all the BCG's in my piston guns Robar NP3 coated. My POF and Barrett Rec7 came with the BCG's NP3'd from the factory. I had my LWRC M6A2 upper coated. All my AK bolts are coated. I run very light lube on them, but I am told they will run just fine with no lube, which could be a huge advantage in the desert. I don't know of anyone that has ever tested the NP3 guns without lube for high round counts though.
Most piston systems use a one-piece carrier, which eliminates a potential weak spot for a DI gun if the key isn't properly staked.
The last thing that 99.99999 % of us will NEVER encounter is crazy-sustained, full auto fire. With a heavy contour barrel, the gas tube will melt at about 900 rounds, turning the weapon into a single shot. With an M4 contour barrel, the barrel will blow up at about 500 rounds prior to the gas tube melting.
i have never taken hours to clean my rifle. 10-30 minutes max
guess you missed the why i love my LMT thread of the 10,000 round count in the desert with no malfunctions?? http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/564927_Why_I_like_my_LMT___.html
about the automatic, 900 rounds is nearly 10 combat loads, 500 is nearly 5 combat loads. no one will ever fire that many rounds on fully automatic and still be able to hold their rifles to reach those round counts.
there is nothing wrong with a piston gun, but things like Swat posted make no sense, all they do is make new people here believe something that is not true. I am a fan of PWS though from the standpoint of its a fun rifle, not something that is needed.
sorry bout that my math was off, standard combat load is 7 magazines. let me edit my original post
3/3/2012 10:51:26 PM
I have both piston and DI guns and I like both. I don't limit myself to one type of one gun. I can enjoy different platforms and operating systems without feeling guilty about my DI guns being lonely or feeling cheated on.
3/4/2012 12:15:08 AM
Originally Posted By sinlessorrow:
i have never taken hours to clean my rifle. 10-30 minutes max
guess you missed the why i love my LMT thread of the 10,000 round count in the desert with no malfunctions?? http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/564927_Why_I_like_my_LMT___.html
about the automatic, 900 rounds is nearly 5 combat loads, 500 is nearly 3 combat loads. no one will ever fire that many rounds on fully automatic and still be able to hold their rifles to reach those round counts.
there is nothing wrong with a piston gun, but things like Swat posted make no sense, all they do is make new people here believe something that is not true. I am a fan of PWS though from the standpoint of its a fun rifle, not something that is needed.
i have never taken hours to clean my rifle. 10-30 minutes max
guess you missed the why i love my LMT thread of the 10,000 round count in the desert with no malfunctions?? http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/564927_Why_I_like_my_LMT___.html
about the automatic, 900 rounds is nearly 5 combat loads, 500 is nearly 3 combat loads. no one will ever fire that many rounds on fully automatic and still be able to hold their rifles to reach those round counts.
there is nothing wrong with a piston gun, but things like Swat posted make no sense, all they do is make new people here believe something that is not true. I am a fan of PWS though from the standpoint of its a fun rifle, not something that is needed.
Funny that in your ignorance you have believed that it is me that is not making sense. Everything I have posted is based on fact. And yes, there have been instances of operators sustaining full auto fire long enough to blow up their M4 barrels. This is the reason the SOCOM barrel was adopted. Do yourself a favor and before you start ASSuming someone doesn't know what they are talking about take the time to educate yourself.
Article and video reference here...
http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/12/m4-and-m4a1-guns/
Yeah, I must have missed your LMT post. Did I say anything about DI Malfunctions?? No. I said the amount of lube it takes to keep it running makes it a muddy mess in a dusty environment. How many times did you lube it during those 10,000 rounds? I used a Colt CAR-15A3 HBAR for 6 years on my tactical team and never had a malfunction but it was a bitch to clean. As a side note... you want to know what I paid for my personal Colt CAR-15A3 in 1999 on department letterhead?? $630!
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
3/4/2012 12:34:29 AM
Originally Posted By Swat_dude:
Funny that in your ignorance you have believed that it is me that is not making sense. Everything I have posted is based on fact. And yes, there have been instances of operators sustaining full auto fire long enough to blow up their M4 barrels. This is the reason the SOCOM barrel was adopted. Do yourself a favor and before you start ASSuming someone doesn't know what they are talking about take the time to educate yourself.
Article and video reference here...
http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/12/m4-and-m4a1-guns/
Yeah, I must have missed your LMT post. Did I say anything about DI Malfunctions?? No. I said the amount of lube it takes to keep it running makes it a muddy mess in a dusty environment. How many times did you lube it during those 10,000 rounds? I used a Colt CAR-15A3 HBAR for 6 years on my tactical team and never had a malfunction but it was a bitch to clean. As a side note... you want to know what I paid for my personal Colt CAR-15A3 in 1999 on department letterhead?? $630!
<a href="http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/14/img0095xf.jpg/" target="_blank">http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/1387/img0095xf.jpg</a>
<a href="http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/41/img0100dn.jpg/" target="_blank">http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/411/img0100dn.jpg</a>
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Originally Posted By sinlessorrow:
i have never taken hours to clean my rifle. 10-30 minutes max
guess you missed the why i love my LMT thread of the 10,000 round count in the desert with no malfunctions?? http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/564927_Why_I_like_my_LMT___.html
about the automatic, 900 rounds is nearly 5 combat loads, 500 is nearly 3 combat loads. no one will ever fire that many rounds on fully automatic and still be able to hold their rifles to reach those round counts.
there is nothing wrong with a piston gun, but things like Swat posted make no sense, all they do is make new people here believe something that is not true. I am a fan of PWS though from the standpoint of its a fun rifle, not something that is needed.
i have never taken hours to clean my rifle. 10-30 minutes max
guess you missed the why i love my LMT thread of the 10,000 round count in the desert with no malfunctions?? http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/564927_Why_I_like_my_LMT___.html
about the automatic, 900 rounds is nearly 5 combat loads, 500 is nearly 3 combat loads. no one will ever fire that many rounds on fully automatic and still be able to hold their rifles to reach those round counts.
there is nothing wrong with a piston gun, but things like Swat posted make no sense, all they do is make new people here believe something that is not true. I am a fan of PWS though from the standpoint of its a fun rifle, not something that is needed.
Funny that in your ignorance you have believed that it is me that is not making sense. Everything I have posted is based on fact. And yes, there have been instances of operators sustaining full auto fire long enough to blow up their M4 barrels. This is the reason the SOCOM barrel was adopted. Do yourself a favor and before you start ASSuming someone doesn't know what they are talking about take the time to educate yourself.
Article and video reference here...
http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/12/m4-and-m4a1-guns/
Yeah, I must have missed your LMT post. Did I say anything about DI Malfunctions?? No. I said the amount of lube it takes to keep it running makes it a muddy mess in a dusty environment. How many times did you lube it during those 10,000 rounds? I used a Colt CAR-15A3 HBAR for 6 years on my tactical team and never had a malfunction but it was a bitch to clean. As a side note... you want to know what I paid for my personal Colt CAR-15A3 in 1999 on department letterhead?? $630!
<a href="http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/14/img0095xf.jpg/" target="_blank">http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/1387/img0095xf.jpg</a>
<a href="http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/41/img0100dn.jpg/" target="_blank">http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/411/img0100dn.jpg</a>
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
im aware of the tests i guess you missed this point
no one will ever fire that many rounds on fully automatic and still be able to hold their rifles to reach those round counts. that was also done back to back to back, very rare
the tests done by colt had the rifle held up for them. your not going to fire 900 rounds and be able to comfortably hold your rifle. i still fail to see how its a "bitch to clean" it literally takes me 10-30 minutes to get a very very thorough clean on my rifles.
3/4/2012 12:39:38 AM
Here is the link to the Filthy 14 article with pics. DI fouled goodness that keeps going...
http://www.slip2000.com/art-swat2.html
http://www.slip2000.com/art-swat2.html
3/4/2012 12:40:42 AM
Originally Posted By sinlessorrow:
im aware of the tests i guess you missed this point
no one will ever fire that many rounds on fully automatic and still be able to hold their rifles to reach those round counts. that was also done back to back to back, very rare
the tests done by colt had the rifle held up for them. your not going to fire 900 rounds and be able to comfortably hold your rifle. i still fail to see how its a "bitch to clean" it literally takes me 10-30 minutes to get a very very thorough clean on my rifles.
Originally Posted By Swat_dude:
Funny that in your ignorance you have believed that it is me that is not making sense. Everything I have posted is based on fact. And yes, there have been instances of operators sustaining full auto fire long enough to blow up their M4 barrels. This is the reason the SOCOM barrel was adopted. Do yourself a favor and before you start ASSuming someone doesn't know what they are talking about take the time to educate yourself.
Article and video reference here...
http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/12/m4-and-m4a1-guns/
Yeah, I must have missed your LMT post. Did I say anything about DI Malfunctions?? No. I said the amount of lube it takes to keep it running makes it a muddy mess in a dusty environment. How many times did you lube it during those 10,000 rounds? I used a Colt CAR-15A3 HBAR for 6 years on my tactical team and never had a malfunction but it was a bitch to clean. As a side note... you want to know what I paid for my personal Colt CAR-15A3 in 1999 on department letterhead?? $630!
<a href="http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/14/img0095xf.jpg/" target="_blank">http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/1387/img0095xf.jpg</a>
<a href="http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/41/img0100dn.jpg/" target="_blank">http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/411/img0100dn.jpg</a>
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Originally Posted By sinlessorrow:
i have never taken hours to clean my rifle. 10-30 minutes max
guess you missed the why i love my LMT thread of the 10,000 round count in the desert with no malfunctions?? http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/564927_Why_I_like_my_LMT___.html
about the automatic, 900 rounds is nearly 5 combat loads, 500 is nearly 3 combat loads. no one will ever fire that many rounds on fully automatic and still be able to hold their rifles to reach those round counts.
there is nothing wrong with a piston gun, but things like Swat posted make no sense, all they do is make new people here believe something that is not true. I am a fan of PWS though from the standpoint of its a fun rifle, not something that is needed.
i have never taken hours to clean my rifle. 10-30 minutes max
guess you missed the why i love my LMT thread of the 10,000 round count in the desert with no malfunctions?? http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/564927_Why_I_like_my_LMT___.html
about the automatic, 900 rounds is nearly 5 combat loads, 500 is nearly 3 combat loads. no one will ever fire that many rounds on fully automatic and still be able to hold their rifles to reach those round counts.
there is nothing wrong with a piston gun, but things like Swat posted make no sense, all they do is make new people here believe something that is not true. I am a fan of PWS though from the standpoint of its a fun rifle, not something that is needed.
Funny that in your ignorance you have believed that it is me that is not making sense. Everything I have posted is based on fact. And yes, there have been instances of operators sustaining full auto fire long enough to blow up their M4 barrels. This is the reason the SOCOM barrel was adopted. Do yourself a favor and before you start ASSuming someone doesn't know what they are talking about take the time to educate yourself.
Article and video reference here...
http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/12/m4-and-m4a1-guns/
Yeah, I must have missed your LMT post. Did I say anything about DI Malfunctions?? No. I said the amount of lube it takes to keep it running makes it a muddy mess in a dusty environment. How many times did you lube it during those 10,000 rounds? I used a Colt CAR-15A3 HBAR for 6 years on my tactical team and never had a malfunction but it was a bitch to clean. As a side note... you want to know what I paid for my personal Colt CAR-15A3 in 1999 on department letterhead?? $630!
<a href="http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/14/img0095xf.jpg/" target="_blank">http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/1387/img0095xf.jpg</a>
<a href="http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/41/img0100dn.jpg/" target="_blank">http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/411/img0100dn.jpg</a>
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
im aware of the tests i guess you missed this point
no one will ever fire that many rounds on fully automatic and still be able to hold their rifles to reach those round counts. that was also done back to back to back, very rare
the tests done by colt had the rifle held up for them. your not going to fire 900 rounds and be able to comfortably hold your rifle. i still fail to see how its a "bitch to clean" it literally takes me 10-30 minutes to get a very very thorough clean on my rifles.
I think it is you that missed the point. What did I say?... "99.99999 % of us will NEVER encounter is crazy-sustained, full auto fire." and what failed in the last video? The gas tube. A piston gun would have still kept going. That was the point.
Also from my original post... "...I don't think one is better than the other." Not sure what point you are making by saying my post makes people believe something that isn't true other than you just really saying "my %$&@ is bigger than yours."
I have no vested interest in promoting one type of system over the other. I own both.
3/4/2012 12:54:48 AM
Originally Posted By Grunt1775:
I have several AR's, My current work weapon is an HK 416 . I have never had a problem with a gas tube system, or the piston system when properly maintained. I want to add another AR to my personal collection, Im considering a piston AR, but for the price, i can buy or build a very nice gas system.
Ive read all the data and propaganda, but id rather hear from the folks who actually have and use AR's
and I verywell might just buy a piston system because i dont have one. But im intrested in some opinions
Thanks folks
I have several AR's, My current work weapon is an HK 416 . I have never had a problem with a gas tube system, or the piston system when properly maintained. I want to add another AR to my personal collection, Im considering a piston AR, but for the price, i can buy or build a very nice gas system.
Ive read all the data and propaganda, but id rather hear from the folks who actually have and use AR's
and I verywell might just buy a piston system because i dont have one
. But im intrested in some opinions
Thanks folks
Hello Grunt1775,
Well, if your work weapon is the HK416 and you have several other AR's (I'm guessing DI system)
then you should be well aware of the benefits of the piston system.
If you have no experience with the DI, by all means, get one.
After a few hundred round down range and your sitting around cleaning, you will know and appreciate why the piston system is the better of the two.
I have several DI (retro and AR-10's) but after all the time spent cleaning (and melted gas tubes) I've come to understand why the piston is the better system.
Now, there may be some here on this thread that will tell you other wise (it must be slow at m4 carbine,net ) but everyone has there own option, (there like asshole, everyone has one) all I can tell you is try them both and run with the one you trust with your life.
good luck brother!
3/4/2012 1:03:12 AM
Originally Posted By sinlessorrow:
blank firing is known to gum everything up so much faster than normal shooting, that said you dont need the white glove clean in a real rifle. i know the military teaches it but its not needed. ive never spent more than 20 minutes cleaning a DI rifle and never had troubles
that said if you enjoy pistons thats great.
Originally Posted By marko16:
I love a clean receiver and love all my other piston guns. I just went to the range with the old A2 and it sucked to clean it. I was in supply and worked the arms room in the Army and Guard and it irks me to know end that it just isn't ever clean enough. Now it could be said it's dirty under my front grip but the DI never checked there. I also was in when the DI sucked and I can't get that out of my head either. Looking back it was 99.9% mag related but even on a blank firing exercise, the DI would gum up. The AA piston won't, and again strange for me to care as I'll never shoot enough rounds to plug either, but I just love how simple and easy the piston is. My oldest piston is a WW2 G43 so it's just as proven as any DI system. I wouldn't get rid of either.
I love a clean receiver and love all my other piston guns. I just went to the range with the old A2 and it sucked to clean it. I was in supply and worked the arms room in the Army and Guard and it irks me to know end that it just isn't ever clean enough. Now it could be said it's dirty under my front grip but the DI never checked there
. I also was in when the DI sucked and I can't get that out of my head either. Looking back it was 99.9% mag related but even on a blank firing exercise, the DI would gum up. The AA piston won't, and again strange for me to care as I'll never shoot enough rounds to plug either, but I just love how simple and easy the piston is. My oldest piston is a WW2 G43 so it's just as proven as any DI system. I wouldn't get rid of either.blank firing is known to gum everything up so much faster than normal shooting, that said you dont need the white glove clean in a real rifle. i know the military teaches it but its not needed. ive never spent more than 20 minutes cleaning a DI rifle and never had troubles
that said if you enjoy pistons thats great.
Really?
In the Army, I've spent hours cleaning my weapons, you were never in the service?
3/4/2012 1:05:21 AM
Originally Posted By sinlessorrow:
no one will ever fire that many rounds on fully automatic and still be able to hold their rifles to reach those round counts.
no one will ever fire that many rounds on fully automatic and still be able to hold their rifles to reach those round counts.
Sinlessorrow, meet "no one". "No one", say hello to sinlessorrow...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNAohtjG14c
Never underestimate the determination of a redneck with a bunch of AK drum mags.
3/4/2012 1:06:55 AM
Originally Posted By Swat_dude:
Sinlessorrow, meet "no one". "No one", say hello to sinlessorrow...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNAohtjG14c
Originally Posted By sinlessorrow:
no one will ever fire that many rounds on fully automatic and still be able to hold their rifles to reach those round counts.
no one will ever fire that many rounds on fully automatic and still be able to hold their rifles to reach those round counts.
Sinlessorrow, meet "no one". "No one", say hello to sinlessorrow...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNAohtjG14c
AK's rock!
3/4/2012 1:09:09 AM
Piston AR with 150 rounds in a few seconds...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=wMArJVzlOaw&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=wMArJVzlOaw&NR=1
3/4/2012 1:09:58 AM
Originally Posted By Swat_dude:
Here is the link to the Filthy 14 article with pics. DI fouled goodness that keeps going...
http://www.slip2000.com/art-swat2.html
Here is the link to the Filthy 14 article with pics. DI fouled goodness that keeps going...
http://www.slip2000.com/art-swat2.html
The upper receiver must have looked like someone took a shit in it, thats why I like the piston.
3/4/2012 1:13:06 AM
Originally Posted By Swat_dude:
I think it is you that missed the point. What did I say?... "99.99999 % of us will NEVER encounter is crazy-sustained, full auto fire." and what failed in the last video? The gas tube. A piston gun would have still kept going. That was the point.
Also from my original post... "...I don't think one is better than the other." Not sure what point you are making by saying my post makes people believe something that isn't true other than you just really saying "my %$&@ is bigger than yours."
I have no vested interest in promoting one type of system over the other. I own both.
Originally Posted By sinlessorrow:
im aware of the tests i guess you missed this point
no one will ever fire that many rounds on fully automatic and still be able to hold their rifles to reach those round counts. that was also done back to back to back, very rare
the tests done by colt had the rifle held up for them. your not going to fire 900 rounds and be able to comfortably hold your rifle. i still fail to see how its a "bitch to clean" it literally takes me 10-30 minutes to get a very very thorough clean on my rifles.
Originally Posted By Swat_dude:
Funny that in your ignorance you have believed that it is me that is not making sense. Everything I have posted is based on fact. And yes, there have been instances of operators sustaining full auto fire long enough to blow up their M4 barrels. This is the reason the SOCOM barrel was adopted. Do yourself a favor and before you start ASSuming someone doesn't know what they are talking about take the time to educate yourself.
Article and video reference here...
http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/12/m4-and-m4a1-guns/
Yeah, I must have missed your LMT post. Did I say anything about DI Malfunctions?? No. I said the amount of lube it takes to keep it running makes it a muddy mess in a dusty environment. How many times did you lube it during those 10,000 rounds? I used a Colt CAR-15A3 HBAR for 6 years on my tactical team and never had a malfunction but it was a bitch to clean. As a side note... you want to know what I paid for my personal Colt CAR-15A3 in 1999 on department letterhead?? $630!
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Originally Posted By sinlessorrow:
i have never taken hours to clean my rifle. 10-30 minutes max
guess you missed the why i love my LMT thread of the 10,000 round count in the desert with no malfunctions?? http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/564927_Why_I_like_my_LMT___.html
about the automatic, 900 rounds is nearly 5 combat loads, 500 is nearly 3 combat loads. no one will ever fire that many rounds on fully automatic and still be able to hold their rifles to reach those round counts.
there is nothing wrong with a piston gun, but things like Swat posted make no sense, all they do is make new people here believe something that is not true. I am a fan of PWS though from the standpoint of its a fun rifle, not something that is needed.
i have never taken hours to clean my rifle. 10-30 minutes max
guess you missed the why i love my LMT thread of the 10,000 round count in the desert with no malfunctions?? http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/564927_Why_I_like_my_LMT___.html
about the automatic, 900 rounds is nearly 5 combat loads, 500 is nearly 3 combat loads. no one will ever fire that many rounds on fully automatic and still be able to hold their rifles to reach those round counts.
there is nothing wrong with a piston gun, but things like Swat posted make no sense, all they do is make new people here believe something that is not true. I am a fan of PWS though from the standpoint of its a fun rifle, not something that is needed.
Funny that in your ignorance you have believed that it is me that is not making sense. Everything I have posted is based on fact. And yes, there have been instances of operators sustaining full auto fire long enough to blow up their M4 barrels. This is the reason the SOCOM barrel was adopted. Do yourself a favor and before you start ASSuming someone doesn't know what they are talking about take the time to educate yourself.
Article and video reference here...
http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/12/m4-and-m4a1-guns/
Yeah, I must have missed your LMT post. Did I say anything about DI Malfunctions?? No. I said the amount of lube it takes to keep it running makes it a muddy mess in a dusty environment. How many times did you lube it during those 10,000 rounds? I used a Colt CAR-15A3 HBAR for 6 years on my tactical team and never had a malfunction but it was a bitch to clean. As a side note... you want to know what I paid for my personal Colt CAR-15A3 in 1999 on department letterhead?? $630!
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im aware of the tests i guess you missed this point
no one will ever fire that many rounds on fully automatic and still be able to hold their rifles to reach those round counts. that was also done back to back to back, very rare
the tests done by colt had the rifle held up for them. your not going to fire 900 rounds and be able to comfortably hold your rifle. i still fail to see how its a "bitch to clean" it literally takes me 10-30 minutes to get a very very thorough clean on my rifles.
I think it is you that missed the point. What did I say?... "99.99999 % of us will NEVER encounter is crazy-sustained, full auto fire." and what failed in the last video? The gas tube. A piston gun would have still kept going. That was the point.
Also from my original post... "...I don't think one is better than the other." Not sure what point you are making by saying my post makes people believe something that isn't true other than you just really saying "my %$&@ is bigger than yours."
I have no vested interest in promoting one type of system over the other. I own both.
Does it drive ya nuts coming here to the piston forum and have to talk to someone like there a five year old?
3/4/2012 1:25:18 AM
2:00-4:00 is why I own a Piston rifle. You cannot ignore how beneficial a cool weapon is to its overall reliability. 
3/4/2012 1:39:39 AM
Originally Posted By wtwining:
Really?
In the Army, I've spent hours cleaning my weapons, you were never in the service?
Originally Posted By sinlessorrow:
blank firing is known to gum everything up so much faster than normal shooting, that said you dont need the white glove clean in a real rifle. i know the military teaches it but its not needed. ive never spent more than 20 minutes cleaning a DI rifle and never had troubles
that said if you enjoy pistons thats great.
Originally Posted By marko16:
I love a clean receiver and love all my other piston guns. I just went to the range with the old A2 and it sucked to clean it. I was in supply and worked the arms room in the Army and Guard and it irks me to know end that it just isn't ever clean enough. Now it could be said it's dirty under my front grip but the DI never checked there. I also was in when the DI sucked and I can't get that out of my head either. Looking back it was 99.9% mag related but even on a blank firing exercise, the DI would gum up. The AA piston won't, and again strange for me to care as I'll never shoot enough rounds to plug either, but I just love how simple and easy the piston is. My oldest piston is a WW2 G43 so it's just as proven as any DI system. I wouldn't get rid of either.
I love a clean receiver and love all my other piston guns. I just went to the range with the old A2 and it sucked to clean it. I was in supply and worked the arms room in the Army and Guard and it irks me to know end that it just isn't ever clean enough. Now it could be said it's dirty under my front grip but the DI never checked there
. I also was in when the DI sucked and I can't get that out of my head either. Looking back it was 99.9% mag related but even on a blank firing exercise, the DI would gum up. The AA piston won't, and again strange for me to care as I'll never shoot enough rounds to plug either, but I just love how simple and easy the piston is. My oldest piston is a WW2 G43 so it's just as proven as any DI system. I wouldn't get rid of either.blank firing is known to gum everything up so much faster than normal shooting, that said you dont need the white glove clean in a real rifle. i know the military teaches it but its not needed. ive never spent more than 20 minutes cleaning a DI rifle and never had troubles
that said if you enjoy pistons thats great.
Really?
In the Army, I've spent hours cleaning my weapons, you were never in the service?
and i think everyone will agree a white glove inspection is more harmful to components than beneficial
Originally Posted By Swat_dude:
Top reason: Piston rifles are much cleaner. This can can make them more reliable in some situations, and definitely more of pleasure to shoot knowing they won't take hours to clean. Other than that, I don't think one is better than the other. Pat Rodgers is a big fan of lube-soaked DI guns and they get nasty. There is an article about a Bravo Company DI gun they ran for thousands of rounds without cleaning and it did fabulous. The one thing they did was lube the eff out of it. For Arizona, lube + dust=mud in the gun. I have all the BCG's in my piston guns Robar NP3 coated. My POF and Barrett Rec7 came with the BCG's NP3'd from the factory. I had my LWRC M6A2 upper coated. All my AK bolts are coated. I run very light lube on them, but I am told they will run just fine with no lube, which could be a huge advantage in the desert. I don't know of anyone that has ever tested the NP3 guns without lube for high round counts though.
Most piston systems use a one-piece carrier, which eliminates a potential weak spot for a DI gun if the key isn't properly staked.
The last thing that 99.99999 % of us will NEVER encounter is crazy-sustained, full auto fire. With a heavy contour barrel, the gas tube will melt at about 900 rounds, turning the weapon into a single shot. With an M4 contour barrel, the barrel will blow up at about 500 rounds prior to the gas tube melting.
Top reason: Piston rifles are much cleaner. This can can make them more reliable in some situations, and definitely more of pleasure to shoot knowing they won't take hours to clean. Other than that, I don't think one is better than the other. Pat Rodgers is a big fan of lube-soaked DI guns and they get nasty. There is an article about a Bravo Company DI gun they ran for thousands of rounds without cleaning and it did fabulous. The one thing they did was lube the eff out of it. For Arizona, lube + dust=mud in the gun. I have all the BCG's in my piston guns Robar NP3 coated. My POF and Barrett Rec7 came with the BCG's NP3'd from the factory. I had my LWRC M6A2 upper coated. All my AK bolts are coated. I run very light lube on them, but I am told they will run just fine with no lube, which could be a huge advantage in the desert. I don't know of anyone that has ever tested the NP3 guns without lube for high round counts though.
Most piston systems use a one-piece carrier, which eliminates a potential weak spot for a DI gun if the key isn't properly staked.
The last thing that 99.99999 % of us will NEVER encounter is crazy-sustained, full auto fire. With a heavy contour barrel, the gas tube will melt at about 900 rounds, turning the weapon into a single shot. With an M4 contour barrel, the barrel will blow up at about 500 rounds prior to the gas tube melting.
i never said everything you posted was wrong, i said things you post(should have been some things, that was my bad) like the red highlighted part
all that said im a PWS guy when it comes to pistons if it has to be an AR, i mainly prefer guns build around a piston
3/4/2012 9:11:33 AM
Originally Posted By sinlessorrow:
got a link to that?
Originally Posted By 300LW:
Faster follow-up shots. From the LWRC forum:
...recoil is recoil. There is no more or less recoil in a DI vs Piston gun. The difference being that the recoil is presented and over with much sooner with a piston gun. With professional shooters, operators that shoot a lot will in almost every case have much shorter splits with our gun than a DI M4 or even the long recoiling SCAR. The DI carrier generally speeds up for half of its travel, then only has half left to slow down. In general a stoner rifle bottoms out in the buffer tube causing muzzle flip. A piston gun is going full tilt through unlocking and thus has almost the whole length of the carrier's travel to slow down and any of the bottoming out effect is generally eliminated.
With an Aimpoint or similar, try this. Center up on your target and fire. As soon as your dot returns fire again. Time your splits. Do the same with a long recoiling gun. It takes much longer for your sights to settle back in. This even works when firing Auto bursts. You will amaze yourself how fast you can shoot. Your dot will quickly bounce and right back on target.
These are just true facts you will have trouble contesting if you shoot properly with a good stance or position. If The difference is mental because you are use to a long recoiling firearm that spreads the recoil impulse over a longer time frame.
Give it a try! You will be shocked. Once you try that, start transitioning to different targets as fast as you are able to do in a deliberate accurate manner. It may seem counter intuitive but is absolutely true.
Faster follow-up shots. From the LWRC forum:
...recoil is recoil. There is no more or less recoil in a DI vs Piston gun. The difference being that the recoil is presented and over with much sooner with a piston gun. With professional shooters, operators that shoot a lot will in almost every case have much shorter splits with our gun than a DI M4 or even the long recoiling SCAR. The DI carrier generally speeds up for half of its travel, then only has half left to slow down. In general a stoner rifle bottoms out in the buffer tube causing muzzle flip. A piston gun is going full tilt through unlocking and thus has almost the whole length of the carrier's travel to slow down and any of the bottoming out effect is generally eliminated.
With an Aimpoint or similar, try this. Center up on your target and fire. As soon as your dot returns fire again. Time your splits. Do the same with a long recoiling gun. It takes much longer for your sights to settle back in. This even works when firing Auto bursts. You will amaze yourself how fast you can shoot. Your dot will quickly bounce and right back on target.
These are just true facts you will have trouble contesting if you shoot properly with a good stance or position. If The difference is mental because you are use to a long recoiling firearm that spreads the recoil impulse over a longer time frame.
Give it a try! You will be shocked. Once you try that, start transitioning to different targets as fast as you are able to do in a deliberate accurate manner. It may seem counter intuitive but is absolutely true.
got a link to that?
http://forum.lwrci.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=10578
3/4/2012 10:32:54 AM
Originally Posted By sinlessorrow:
and i think everyone will agree a white glove inspection is more harmful to components than beneficial
and i think everyone will agree a white glove inspection is more harmful to components than beneficial
I have spent literally days cleaning guns. 5 minutes here and an hour elsewhere. I don't have my guns spotless clean by mil-std's, but clean nevertheless and that is the way I like it. Yet I do not like to clean guns. I have one life and less I use of it cleaning guns the more I can use it to more interesting things. Guns that run clean help me to spend my time in other activities.
3/4/2012 11:13:26 AM
My personal experience matches Sleepers. We never, ever expended even the basic load 440 rounds of 5.56mm we carried. Certainly not in a morning or even day long engagement. Even a indifferently maintained M16/M4 will handle this.
Shooting 1800 rounds on a weekend training course is common. It's not a reflection of the real world. Just imagine trying to carry those 1800 rounds!
No denial that piston systems are cleaner. At least my LWRCs are. They provide increased reliability-convenience. The fact they can fire 10,000 rounds without maintenance is certainly impressive but I know of no infantryman who will wait that long!
A good piston system is an incremental, not radical improvement to this already reliable system.
–– Chuck
Shooting 1800 rounds on a weekend training course is common. It's not a reflection of the real world. Just imagine trying to carry those 1800 rounds!
No denial that piston systems are cleaner. At least my LWRCs are. They provide increased reliability-convenience. The fact they can fire 10,000 rounds without maintenance is certainly impressive but I know of no infantryman who will wait that long!
A good piston system is an incremental, not radical improvement to this already reliable system.
–– Chuck
3/4/2012 12:19:22 PM
Originally Posted By Chuck:
My personal experience matches Sleepers. We never, ever expended even the basic load 440 rounds of 5.56mm we carried. Certainly not in a morning or even day long engagement. Even a indifferently maintained M16/M4 will handle this.
Shooting 1800 rounds on a weekend training course is common. It's not a reflection of the real world. Just imagine trying to carry those 1800 rounds!
No denial that piston systems are cleaner. At least my LWRCs are. They provide increased reliability-convenience. The fact they can fire 10,000 rounds without maintenance is certainly impressive but I know of no infantryman who will wait that long!
A good piston system is an incremental, not radical improvement to this already reliable system.
–– Chuck
My personal experience matches Sleepers. We never, ever expended even the basic load 440 rounds of 5.56mm we carried. Certainly not in a morning or even day long engagement. Even a indifferently maintained M16/M4 will handle this.
Shooting 1800 rounds on a weekend training course is common. It's not a reflection of the real world. Just imagine trying to carry those 1800 rounds!
No denial that piston systems are cleaner. At least my LWRCs are. They provide increased reliability-convenience. The fact they can fire 10,000 rounds without maintenance is certainly impressive but I know of no infantryman who will wait that long!
A good piston system is an incremental, not radical improvement to this already reliable system.
–– Chuck
Well said.
3/4/2012 12:47:07 PM
Originally Posted By sinlessorrow:
and i think everyone will agree a white glove inspection is more harmful to components than beneficial
i never said everything you posted was wrong, i said things you post(should have been some things, that was my bad) like the red highlighted part
all that said im a PWS guy when it comes to pistons if it has to be an AR, i mainly prefer guns build around a piston
Originally Posted By wtwining:
Really?
In the Army, I've spent hours cleaning my weapons, you were never in the service?
Originally Posted By sinlessorrow:
blank firing is known to gum everything up so much faster than normal shooting, that said you dont need the white glove clean in a real rifle. i know the military teaches it but its not needed. ive never spent more than 20 minutes cleaning a DI rifle and never had troubles
that said if you enjoy pistons thats great.
Originally Posted By marko16:
I love a clean receiver and love all my other piston guns. I just went to the range with the old A2 and it sucked to clean it. I was in supply and worked the arms room in the Army and Guard and it irks me to know end that it just isn't ever clean enough. Now it could be said it's dirty under my front grip but the DI never checked there. I also was in when the DI sucked and I can't get that out of my head either. Looking back it was 99.9% mag related but even on a blank firing exercise, the DI would gum up. The AA piston won't, and again strange for me to care as I'll never shoot enough rounds to plug either, but I just love how simple and easy the piston is. My oldest piston is a WW2 G43 so it's just as proven as any DI system. I wouldn't get rid of either.
I love a clean receiver and love all my other piston guns. I just went to the range with the old A2 and it sucked to clean it. I was in supply and worked the arms room in the Army and Guard and it irks me to know end that it just isn't ever clean enough. Now it could be said it's dirty under my front grip but the DI never checked there
. I also was in when the DI sucked and I can't get that out of my head either. Looking back it was 99.9% mag related but even on a blank firing exercise, the DI would gum up. The AA piston won't, and again strange for me to care as I'll never shoot enough rounds to plug either, but I just love how simple and easy the piston is. My oldest piston is a WW2 G43 so it's just as proven as any DI system. I wouldn't get rid of either.blank firing is known to gum everything up so much faster than normal shooting, that said you dont need the white glove clean in a real rifle. i know the military teaches it but its not needed. ive never spent more than 20 minutes cleaning a DI rifle and never had troubles
that said if you enjoy pistons thats great.
Really?
In the Army, I've spent hours cleaning my weapons, you were never in the service?
and i think everyone will agree a white glove inspection is more harmful to components than beneficial
Originally Posted By Swat_dude:
Top reason: Piston rifles are much cleaner. This can can make them more reliable in some situations, and definitely more of pleasure to shoot knowing they won't take hours to clean. Other than that, I don't think one is better than the other. Pat Rodgers is a big fan of lube-soaked DI guns and they get nasty. There is an article about a Bravo Company DI gun they ran for thousands of rounds without cleaning and it did fabulous. The one thing they did was lube the eff out of it. For Arizona, lube + dust=mud in the gun. I have all the BCG's in my piston guns Robar NP3 coated. My POF and Barrett Rec7 came with the BCG's NP3'd from the factory. I had my LWRC M6A2 upper coated. All my AK bolts are coated. I run very light lube on them, but I am told they will run just fine with no lube, which could be a huge advantage in the desert. I don't know of anyone that has ever tested the NP3 guns without lube for high round counts though.
Most piston systems use a one-piece carrier, which eliminates a potential weak spot for a DI gun if the key isn't properly staked.
The last thing that 99.99999 % of us will NEVER encounter is crazy-sustained, full auto fire. With a heavy contour barrel, the gas tube will melt at about 900 rounds, turning the weapon into a single shot. With an M4 contour barrel, the barrel will blow up at about 500 rounds prior to the gas tube melting.
Top reason: Piston rifles are much cleaner. This can can make them more reliable in some situations, and definitely more of pleasure to shoot knowing they won't take hours to clean. Other than that, I don't think one is better than the other. Pat Rodgers is a big fan of lube-soaked DI guns and they get nasty. There is an article about a Bravo Company DI gun they ran for thousands of rounds without cleaning and it did fabulous. The one thing they did was lube the eff out of it. For Arizona, lube + dust=mud in the gun. I have all the BCG's in my piston guns Robar NP3 coated. My POF and Barrett Rec7 came with the BCG's NP3'd from the factory. I had my LWRC M6A2 upper coated. All my AK bolts are coated. I run very light lube on them, but I am told they will run just fine with no lube, which could be a huge advantage in the desert. I don't know of anyone that has ever tested the NP3 guns without lube for high round counts though.
Most piston systems use a one-piece carrier, which eliminates a potential weak spot for a DI gun if the key isn't properly staked.
The last thing that 99.99999 % of us will NEVER encounter is crazy-sustained, full auto fire. With a heavy contour barrel, the gas tube will melt at about 900 rounds, turning the weapon into a single shot. With an M4 contour barrel, the barrel will blow up at about 500 rounds prior to the gas tube melting.
i never said everything you posted was wrong, i said things you post(should have been some things, that was my bad) like the red highlighted part
all that said im a PWS guy when it comes to pistons if it has to be an AR, i mainly prefer guns build around a piston
Why?
Also, you were never in the service?
3/4/2012 3:42:36 PM
I need to apologize for going off on Sinlessorrow last night. It was one of those days and I wasn't really in the mood to deal with someone seemingly twisting around what I was stating.
I am definitely more apt to take several guns to the range these days knowing that I won't spend all afternoon Sunday cleaning them. I have gotten away from the crazy bore cleaning where I brush/patch/brush/patch until nothing and I mean NOTHING comes out. Now I only do that type of intense cleaning after the first 100 or so break-in rounds on a barrel. On my NP3 coated rifle internal guns, I usually spray some Mpro7 on the BCG and wipe it with a paper tower, brush the bolt head and under the extractor with a nylon brush, use a chamber/lug mop, and then spray some Mpro7 down the bore and run a bore snake down it after the Mpro7 has soaked in for a few minutes. If I know I am going to store the rifle for awhile, I will put a wet patch of EWL down the bore, let it soak for a bit, and then run a loose patch to pick up any excess. This still takes me about 30 minutes per gun. I have never cleaned any gun, DI, piston or otherwise, in 10 minutes, ever.
I am definitely more apt to take several guns to the range these days knowing that I won't spend all afternoon Sunday cleaning them. I have gotten away from the crazy bore cleaning where I brush/patch/brush/patch until nothing and I mean NOTHING comes out. Now I only do that type of intense cleaning after the first 100 or so break-in rounds on a barrel. On my NP3 coated rifle internal guns, I usually spray some Mpro7 on the BCG and wipe it with a paper tower, brush the bolt head and under the extractor with a nylon brush, use a chamber/lug mop, and then spray some Mpro7 down the bore and run a bore snake down it after the Mpro7 has soaked in for a few minutes. If I know I am going to store the rifle for awhile, I will put a wet patch of EWL down the bore, let it soak for a bit, and then run a loose patch to pick up any excess. This still takes me about 30 minutes per gun. I have never cleaned any gun, DI, piston or otherwise, in 10 minutes, ever.
3/5/2012 2:39:35 PM
Outside of a a very small minority (SBR and supressors) the DI gas is all you need (its been around for 50 years now). I've dabbled with the gas pistons and am unconvinced that anyone really needs it.
If the idea is that "I'll get a gas piston to make my rifle failure-proof.." then this is a mistaken concept. Bad ammo, magazines and other parts will fail your rifle whether
piston or DI.
As for ease of maintenance I have found a love for plated bolt carrier group like nickel boron or MP3. Being able to simply wipe off carbon is like...a god-send!
If the idea is that "I'll get a gas piston to make my rifle failure-proof.." then this is a mistaken concept. Bad ammo, magazines and other parts will fail your rifle whether
piston or DI.
As for ease of maintenance I have found a love for plated bolt carrier group like nickel boron or MP3. Being able to simply wipe off carbon is like...a god-send!
3/6/2012 1:45:10 PM
The choice to have the gas and carbon expelled in the chamber vs the front muzzle/hand guards is not a hard one to me. Why people don't comprehend this is beyond me.
3/6/2012 1:56:15 PM
Originally Posted By Texasantilib:
The choice to have the gas and carbon expelled in the chamber vs the front muzzle/hand guards is not a hard one to me. Why people don't comprehend this is beyond me.
The choice to have the gas and carbon expelled in the chamber vs the front muzzle/hand guards is not a hard one to me. Why people don't comprehend this is beyond me.
Because its not as simple as that?
Aside from very limited aplications a op rod doesnt add anything.
Also DI doesnt just dump all the gasses into the upper, sure more gets in there but it expels 90% of it out of the upper. There is no proof that carbon fauling is a detriment to a lubricated BCG.
3/6/2012 3:52:43 PM
Originally Posted By sinlessorrow:
Because its not as simple as that?
Aside from very limited aplications a op rod doesnt add anything.
Also DI doesnt just dump all the gasses into the upper, sure more gets in there but it expels 90% of it out of the upper. There is no proof that carbon fauling is a detriment to a lubricated BCG.
Originally Posted By Texasantilib:
The choice to have the gas and carbon expelled in the chamber vs the front muzzle/hand guards is not a hard one to me. Why people don't comprehend this is beyond me.
The choice to have the gas and carbon expelled in the chamber vs the front muzzle/hand guards is not a hard one to me. Why people don't comprehend this is beyond me.
Because its not as simple as that?
Aside from very limited aplications a op rod doesnt add anything.
Also DI doesnt just dump all the gasses into the upper, sure more gets in there but it expels 90% of it out of the upper. There is no proof that carbon fauling is a detriment to a lubricated BCG.
There's proof that carbon fouling is a detriment to the AR, its sad that I can only trust a weapon if only I drown it in lube.
How did you come up with the percentages of the amount of blow back in the upper?
Why is cleaning components more harmful then beneficial?
You were never in the service?
3/6/2012 4:18:30 PM
Originally Posted By wtwining:
There's proof that carbon fouling is a detriment to the AR, its sad that I can only trust a weapon if only I drown it in lube.
How did you come up with the percentages of the amount of blow back in the upper?
Why is cleaning components more harmful then beneficial?
You were never in the service?
Originally Posted By sinlessorrow:
Because its not as simple as that?
Aside from very limited aplications a op rod doesnt add anything.
Also DI doesnt just dump all the gasses into the upper, sure more gets in there but it expels 90% of it out of the upper. There is no proof that carbon fauling is a detriment to a lubricated BCG.
Originally Posted By Texasantilib:
The choice to have the gas and carbon expelled in the chamber vs the front muzzle/hand guards is not a hard one to me. Why people don't comprehend this is beyond me.
The choice to have the gas and carbon expelled in the chamber vs the front muzzle/hand guards is not a hard one to me. Why people don't comprehend this is beyond me.
Because its not as simple as that?
Aside from very limited aplications a op rod doesnt add anything.
Also DI doesnt just dump all the gasses into the upper, sure more gets in there but it expels 90% of it out of the upper. There is no proof that carbon fauling is a detriment to a lubricated BCG.
There's proof that carbon fouling is a detriment to the AR, its sad that I can only trust a weapon if only I drown it in lube.
How did you come up with the percentages of the amount of blow back in the upper?
Why is cleaning components more harmful then beneficial?
You were never in the service?
1. Show me proof carbon fouling is the cause of stoppages? You should lube any weapon regardless, lube on the cam pin, gas rings and rails will suffice, you dont need to drown your internals
2. Gas travels down the gas tube, it enters the bolt carrier and is blown out through the exhaust holes expelling all the gasses.
3. Cleaning till white glove clean removes the protective coating because you scrape and scrape and scrape till its spotless which is not needed. Scraping ever spec of carbon off the bolt tail is not needed.
4. Never claimed to be, but not being in the military doesnt mean i dont know my stuff. Knowing a few military families has shown me they dont know everything. But military members here and on m4c have shown me that alot do know their stuff
3/6/2012 4:43:28 PM
This is neverendless,, why....
3/6/2012 4:53:38 PM
Originally Posted By sinlessorrow:
1. Show me proof carbon fouling is the cause of stoppages? You should lube any weapon regardless, lube on the cam pin, gas rings and rails will suffice, you dont need to drown your internals
2. Gas travels down the gas tube, it enters the bolt carrier and is blown out through the exhaust holes expelling all the gasses.
3. Cleaning till white glove clean removes the protective coating because you scrape and scrape and scrape till its spotless which is not needed. Scraping ever spec of carbon off the bolt tail is not needed.
4. Never claimed to be, but not being in the military doesnt mean i dont know my stuff. Knowing a few military families has shown me they dont know everything. But military members here and on m4c have shown me that alot do know their stuff
Originally Posted By wtwining:
There's proof that carbon fouling is a detriment to the AR, its sad that I can only trust a weapon if only I drown it in lube.
How did you come up with the percentages of the amount of blow back in the upper?
Why is cleaning components more harmful then beneficial?
You were never in the service?
Originally Posted By sinlessorrow:
Because its not as simple as that?
Aside from very limited aplications a op rod doesnt add anything.
Also DI doesnt just dump all the gasses into the upper, sure more gets in there but it expels 90% of it out of the upper. There is no proof that carbon fauling is a detriment to a lubricated BCG.
Originally Posted By Texasantilib:
The choice to have the gas and carbon expelled in the chamber vs the front muzzle/hand guards is not a hard one to me. Why people don't comprehend this is beyond me.
The choice to have the gas and carbon expelled in the chamber vs the front muzzle/hand guards is not a hard one to me. Why people don't comprehend this is beyond me.
Because its not as simple as that?
Aside from very limited aplications a op rod doesnt add anything.
Also DI doesnt just dump all the gasses into the upper, sure more gets in there but it expels 90% of it out of the upper. There is no proof that carbon fauling is a detriment to a lubricated BCG.
There's proof that carbon fouling is a detriment to the AR, its sad that I can only trust a weapon if only I drown it in lube.
How did you come up with the percentages of the amount of blow back in the upper?
Why is cleaning components more harmful then beneficial?
You were never in the service?
1. Show me proof carbon fouling is the cause of stoppages? You should lube any weapon regardless, lube on the cam pin, gas rings and rails will suffice, you dont need to drown your internals
2. Gas travels down the gas tube, it enters the bolt carrier and is blown out through the exhaust holes expelling all the gasses.
3. Cleaning till white glove clean removes the protective coating because you scrape and scrape and scrape till its spotless which is not needed. Scraping ever spec of carbon off the bolt tail is not needed.
4. Never claimed to be, but not being in the military doesnt mean i dont know my stuff. Knowing a few military families has shown me they dont know everything. But military members here and on m4c have shown me that alot do know their stuff
1.http://www.vietnamgear.com/kit.aspx?kit=548 yes, the weapon works when its clean.
2. I can make up numbers to, 5% of DI don't run well in the sand, see just as good as you. This is a technical forum, you just don't come here and make up numbers and make biased opinion.
3. Imagine if there is no carbon build on the carrier, bolt tail or cam pin.
4.If you were in the military you would know how beneficial a clean weapon is.
The OP asked a simple question: "Why a piston?", not: "is DI is better" or "which one", but: "why a piston", easy answer would be its cleaner, but you come here (some would say trolling ) and piss everyone off by trying to twist everything they say.
I don't go to M4C because I like the piston system, and the last thing I would do is go to a technical forum and troll.
