AR15.Com Archives
 the best complete piston upper ???
castor  [Member]
7/19/2010 8:55:40 AM EST
I'm building my first piston AR, I have 2 DI ARs and I will like to know witch complete piston upper you guys would recomend??? I'm looking to either get a 14.5" or a 16",it will go on my sun devil lower, also I want an upper that is easy to dissasemble my choices are:
-Noveske
-LWRC
-Addax
-PWS
-LMT

I'm looking for a good all around upper, something that I can count on, I have hear mix reviews on the POF and that is why they are out of the short list.
Thanks.
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shade_1313  [Life Member]
7/19/2010 10:55:22 PM EST
LWRC, that'd be my choice every day of the week.
deevil  [Member]
7/19/2010 11:19:10 PM EST
Love my Adam's systems. I didn't think the LWRC could be easily disassembled yet...?
hpdfish  [Member]
7/20/2010 12:14:41 AM EST
PWS or Addax
shade_1313  [Life Member]
7/20/2010 2:35:50 AM EST
Originally Posted By deevil:
Love my Adam's systems. I didn't think the LWRC could be easily disassembled yet...?


That's the second time I've seen a comment like this lately. Maybe it's just me, but I find the top rail on their handguard removes really quick and easy, and the piston comes apart pretty easy, too.
bruchi  [Member]
7/20/2010 7:01:57 AM EST
HK416?
Blivalbloval  [Member]
7/20/2010 7:21:57 AM EST
Adams 16 inch Samson rail upper at Rainier $949

At Adams



I don't know why Rainier hasn't changed the info out yet saying the barrel is 1 in 9, when Adams has it as a 1 in 7 now. They may have some older stock still. You could easily buy from one of the other dealers that handle Adams if that's the case.


FlossyB  [Member]
7/20/2010 10:47:28 AM EST
I say LWRC all day. I don't know if it's easy to disassemble, never needed to do it. Won't need to clean it for a while.
castor  [Member]
7/20/2010 11:39:50 AM EST
So is Adams a good product?? and LWRC, I had read some where that is difucult to remove the piston, anyone has any experience with that being true??
HK 416??, well I'm biulding my Piston AR, so I want to stay with an american product, so.. PWS, Addax, LWRC or Neveske. mmmmmm...now Adams has a great price, several hundred dollars under the competition, I wonder why??..
Blivalbloval  [Member]
7/20/2010 12:12:03 PM EST
Originally Posted By castor:
So is Adams a good product?? and LWRC, I had read some where that is difucult to remove the piston, anyone has any experience with that being true??
HK 416??, well I'm biulding my Piston AR, so I want to stay with an american product, so.. PWS, Addax, LWRC or Neveske. mmmmmm...now Adams has a great price, several hundred dollars under the competition, I wonder why??..


Why is it less than the competition? It's not because it's a poor quality product. It's because the other guys are still choosing to charge more for a product that isn't the only choice anymore. LWRC and POF were two of the first on the piston AR scene years back and their prices are what has driven many people from buying pistons AR's back then and now, saying "when they become more reasonably priced, I'll consider one". Well, there are more reasonably priced choices now, but they still want to charge more.

A piston AR after the piston system is just like a DI AR. The sum of it's parts. Quality made is quality made, but there's a point to how better one part is than the next and what constitutes the price. From barrel to receivers, part kits used to assembly, there is only so much one can do to make a good rifle, but some still feel their logo alone makes it worth more.
(that's basically the way I look at it anyways)

The LWRC system is still designed around taking apart the handguard to get to the system. It unscrews and the top comes off. With whatever you've got on it too. For polymer handguards you remove them same as normal, but it's simply that you have to remove them to get to the system. It leaves you with basically two handguard option. Their aluminum handguard or their polymer handguard. Where as other systems like Adams simply removes from the front of the block. You've got various handguard options to go with and won't need to remove them to clean carbon or dirt from the system and/or oil/grease it.


spdski  [Member]
7/20/2010 12:45:24 PM EST
Maintenance on the LMT is super easy and you can take the whole gun apart VERY quickly.
EaZeNuTZ33  [Member]
7/20/2010 12:58:52 PM EST
I went thru this decision process as well...................went with a complete LWRC M6A3.

Cleaning is extremely easy unless you cover where the removable top section mates with the rest of the handguard......which is not an area I would mount anything anyways (just forward of the barrel nut).

I would go with one of LWRC's midlength piston systems using the longer handrail......especially if you utliize a Magpul AFG like I do. 14.5 PA is nice......but if you can have SBRs in your area, the 12.7" versions are my favorite. I'm going thru SBRing my lower and have my barrel chopped to 12.5" or so and use an AAC muzzle brake mount for my silencer.
87GN  [Team Member]
7/20/2010 1:06:00 PM EST
Originally Posted By Blivalbloval:
Originally Posted By castor:
So is Adams a good product?? and LWRC, I had read some where that is difucult to remove the piston, anyone has any experience with that being true??
HK 416??, well I'm biulding my Piston AR, so I want to stay with an american product, so.. PWS, Addax, LWRC or Neveske. mmmmmm...now Adams has a great price, several hundred dollars under the competition, I wonder why??..


Why is it less than the competition? It's not because it's a poor quality product. It's because the other guys are still choosing to charge more for a product that isn't the only choice anymore. LWRC and POF were two of the first on the piston AR scene years back and their prices are what has driven many people from buying pistons AR's back then and now, saying "when they become more reasonably priced, I'll consider one". Well, there are more reasonably priced choices now, but they still want to charge more.

A piston AR after the piston system is just like a DI AR. The sum of it's parts. Quality made is quality made, but there's a point to how better one part is than the next and what constitutes the price. From barrel to receivers, part kits used to assembly, there is only so much one can do to make a good rifle, but some still feel their logo alone makes it worth more.
(that's basically the way I look at it anyways)

The LWRC system is still designed around taking apart the handguard to get to the system. It unscrews and the top comes off. With whatever you've got on it too. For polymer handguards you remove them same as normal, but it's simply that you have to remove them to get to the system. It leaves you with basically two handguard option. Their aluminum handguard or their polymer handguard. Where as other systems like Adams simply removes from the front of the block. You've got various handguard options to go with and won't need to remove them to clean carbon or dirt from the system and/or oil/grease it.

http://sgcusa.com/images/supporting_images_large/LWRC_SOC_J.jpg


The POFs and LWRCs are more expensive because they offer more features...

If the features aren't important to you, fine...

Your statement that the logo commands a higher price is laughable. POF redesigned the receiver, barrel nut, and handguard with increased rigidity and air circulation in mind...These are items that are not found in conversion kits...
fluwoebers  [Team Member]
7/20/2010 1:42:53 PM EST
Originally Posted By Blivalbloval:
Originally Posted By castor:
So is Adams a good product?? and LWRC, I had read some where that is difucult to remove the piston, anyone has any experience with that being true??
HK 416??, well I'm biulding my Piston AR, so I want to stay with an american product, so.. PWS, Addax, LWRC or Neveske. mmmmmm...now Adams has a great price, several hundred dollars under the competition, I wonder why??..


Why is it less than the competition? It's not because it's a poor quality product. It's because the other guys are still choosing to charge more for a product that isn't the only choice anymore. LWRC and POF were two of the first on the piston AR scene years back and their prices are what has driven many people from buying pistons AR's back then and now, saying "when they become more reasonably priced, I'll consider one". Well, there are more reasonably priced choices now, but they still want to charge more.

A piston AR after the piston system is just like a DI AR. The sum of it's parts. Quality made is quality made, but there's a point to how better one part is than the next and what constitutes the price. From barrel to receivers, part kits used to assembly, there is only so much one can do to make a good rifle, but some still feel their logo alone makes it worth more.
(that's basically the way I look at it anyways)

The LWRC system is still designed around taking apart the handguard to get to the system. It unscrews and the top comes off. With whatever you've got on it too. For polymer handguards you remove them same as normal, but it's simply that you have to remove them to get to the system. It leaves you with basically two handguard option. Their aluminum handguard or their polymer handguard. Where as other systems like Adams simply removes from the front of the block. You've got various handguard options to go with and won't need to remove them to clean carbon or dirt from the system and/or oil/grease it.

http://sgcusa.com/images/supporting_images_large/LWRC_SOC_J.jpg


You are getting a lot more than a logo with some of the brands. This page (http://www.expeditionexchange.com/lwrc/) outlines the features you get in LWRC. There is no body else that offers all those features.

Taking the piston apart is not difficult and doesn't need to be done much.
I really believe LWRC is the best rifle out there.
Blivalbloval  [Member]
7/20/2010 2:17:56 PM EST
Your statement that the logo commands a higher price is laughable.


You are getting a lot more than a logo with some of the brands.



You can disagree, it's your outlook. From my experience at certain point with some manufacturers you basically are. Let's take these two uppers for example, and how about you guys explain to me the value for the difference in price. Since the LWRC M6A2 upper comes with a set of Troy BUIS which normally go for $99 for the front and $119 for the rear, and 3 Tango Down rail covers which normally go for about $15 or so a piece, and a h2 buffer with spring worth about $35, we'll take roughly $298 off the price of the LWRC compared to the Adams leaving a difference of $673.


M6A2 At Expedition Exchange for $1920

Adams 16inch Tactical Upper at Rainier for $949.00


Please explain what you're getting for that difference of $673 in the M6A2 which is round about a normal price for this upper, because I'm not seeing it. Especially for a system I'm stuck with their handguard that I have to take apart to get to the system. To me, that particularly is worth less, not more. The Samson handguard Adams is using is a very good quality handguard from my experience and so are their barrels. The piston system is also top notch.



stonewalljaksun  [Member]
7/20/2010 3:31:39 PM EST
I purchased a complete rifle - LWRC M6A2-S from L&A Firearms for 1899.00 plus shipping. Couldnt be more happy with it. There are deals out there you just have to look.
pipefitter  [Member]
7/20/2010 4:04:43 PM EST
lwrc
harrymp5  [Member]
7/20/2010 4:06:38 PM EST
Overall bangs for ur buck I think Adams wins. It is important not to remove the top rail for cleaning if you have any scope or laser mounted on it. No doubt that LWRCi is a great system but I would stay away from it as I do use laser on top rail.
fluwoebers  [Team Member]
7/20/2010 4:47:38 PM EST
Originally Posted By Blivalbloval:
Your statement that the logo commands a higher price is laughable.


You are getting a lot more than a logo with some of the brands.



You can disagree, it's your outlook. From my experience at certain point with some manufacturers you basically are. Let's take these two uppers for example, and how about you guys explain to me the value for the difference in price. Since the LWRC M6A2 upper comes with a set of Troy BUIS which normally go for $99 for the front and $119 for the rear, and 3 Tango Down rail covers which normally go for about $15 or so a piece, and a h2 buffer with spring worth about $35, we'll take roughly $298 off the price of the LWRC compared to the Adams leaving a difference of $622.


M6A2 At Expedition Exchange for $1920

Adams 16inch Tactical Upper at Rainier for $949.00


Please explain what you're getting for that difference of $622 in the M6A2 which is round about a normal price for this upper, because I'm not seeing it. Especially for a system I'm stuck with their handguard that I have to take apart to get to the system. To me, that particularly is worth less, not more. The Samson handguard Adams is using is a very good quality handguard from my experience and so are their barrels. The piston system is also top notch.





if you scroll down on the page you link to, you see what some of the features are.
The biggest differences are: the bolt carrier design; hammer forged barrel; failzero coating; piston design.

I'm not disparaging Adams Arms. They make a great product. I would trust my life to it.
LWRC has a few more features that I like.
I've purchased 4 LWRC rifles and always paid a lot less than the price you showed, but it was still significantly more than Adams. I think it is worth it.
87GN  [Team Member]
7/20/2010 7:34:04 PM EST
Originally Posted By Blivalbloval:
Your statement that the logo commands a higher price is laughable.


You are getting a lot more than a logo with some of the brands.



You can disagree, it's your outlook. From my experience at certain point with some manufacturers you basically are. Let's take these two uppers for example, and how about you guys explain to me the value for the difference in price. Since the LWRC M6A2 upper comes with a set of Troy BUIS which normally go for $99 for the front and $119 for the rear, and 3 Tango Down rail covers which normally go for about $15 or so a piece, and a h2 buffer with spring worth about $35, we'll take roughly $298 off the price of the LWRC compared to the Adams leaving a difference of $673.


M6A2 At Expedition Exchange for $1920

Adams 16inch Tactical Upper at Rainier for $949.00


Please explain what you're getting for that difference of $673 in the M6A2 which is round about a normal price for this upper, because I'm not seeing it. Especially for a system I'm stuck with their handguard that I have to take apart to get to the system. To me, that particularly is worth less, not more. The Samson handguard Adams is using is a very good quality handguard from my experience and so are their barrels. The piston system is also top notch.





Those prices are insane. SGC has complete M6A3s for $1800 or 1900 a while back. I have a low opinion of both the LWRC and Samson rails but would take the LWRC over the Samson. If we take the current price for an M6A2 at SGC of $2080 and subtract $100 for an EMod and $300 for the lower with the nickel boron fire control group, and the $300 worth of stuff you mentioned earlier, we get $1380, or about $430 more than the AA upper.

So the LWRC has a hammer forged, nitrided 1/7 barrel, the nickel boron carrier, probably the 9310 alloy fancy bolt, and so on. For an additional $430 or so. If you bought the M6A3 during the sale (or from the other retailer named above), the difference would have been around 200 bucks. The features of the LWRC are worth that much more to me.

Now, all that said, it'll be a cold day in hell before I shell out $2000 for an LWRC. I am perfectly happy with my standard ARs. But for someone with money looking for a piston upper, they get more than "just a logo" when they buy an LWRC. Of course, if you want to cherry pick high prices and ignore the difference between a standard carrier and a nickel boron plated one, or a 1/9 button rifled barrel and a 1/7 hammer forged one, or a "who knows" bolt and one made from 9310, and so on... I guess it is "just a logo" to you.
Blivalbloval  [Member]
7/20/2010 8:18:39 PM EST
Originally Posted By 87GN:
Originally Posted By Blivalbloval:
Your statement that the logo commands a higher price is laughable.


You are getting a lot more than a logo with some of the brands.



You can disagree, it's your outlook. From my experience at certain point with some manufacturers you basically are. Let's take these two uppers for example, and how about you guys explain to me the value for the difference in price. Since the LWRC M6A2 upper comes with a set of Troy BUIS which normally go for $99 for the front and $119 for the rear, and 3 Tango Down rail covers which normally go for about $15 or so a piece, and a h2 buffer with spring worth about $35, we'll take roughly $298 off the price of the LWRC compared to the Adams leaving a difference of $673.


M6A2 At Expedition Exchange for $1920

Adams 16inch Tactical Upper at Rainier for $949.00


Please explain what you're getting for that difference of $673 in the M6A2 which is round about a normal price for this upper, because I'm not seeing it. Especially for a system I'm stuck with their handguard that I have to take apart to get to the system. To me, that particularly is worth less, not more. The Samson handguard Adams is using is a very good quality handguard from my experience and so are their barrels. The piston system is also top notch.





Those prices are insane. SGC has complete M6A3s for $1800 or 1900 a while back. I have a low opinion of both the LWRC and Samson rails but would take the LWRC over the Samson. If we take the current price for an M6A2 at SGC of $2080 and subtract $100 for an EMod and $300 for the lower with the nickel boron fire control group, and the $300 worth of stuff you mentioned earlier, we get $1380, or about $430 more than the AA upper.

So the LWRC has a hammer forged, nitrided 1/7 barrel, the nickel boron carrier, probably the 9310 alloy fancy bolt, and so on. For an additional $430 or so. If you bought the M6A3 during the sale (or from the other retailer named above), the difference would have been around 200 bucks. The features of the LWRC are worth that much more to me.

Now, all that said, it'll be a cold day in hell before I shell out $2000 for an LWRC. I am perfectly happy with my standard ARs. But for someone with money looking for a piston upper, they get more than "just a logo" when they buy an LWRC. Of course, if you want to cherry pick high prices and ignore the difference between a standard carrier and a nickel boron plated one, or a 1/9 button rifled barrel and a 1/7 hammer forged one, or a "who knows" bolt and one made from 9310, and so on... I guess it is "just a logo" to you.


If you look above, I didn't provide that link, it was provided as example which is the main reason I used it, but it's reasonably close to standard prices. Standard prices are what matter. Adams has switched to a 1 in 7 barrel as mentioned and have always nitrided theirs (melonited) as they do the piston parts. The hammer forging is the main difference, but not worth that much more.

I have a fair amount of time on LWRC's and know quite well there a quality AR. An excellent piston AR in my opinion, but there not worth more money nor are they a better system. The extra's like furniture and sights a person can easily buy seperately. I could have bought an LWRC with my previous piston AR and I could have bought one with my current, but didn't for reasons I've mentioned.

We both have our opinions, but a person is certainly paying in part for the LWRC logo when they buy one in mine, hyped as it has been here, to pay what it costs for one. If someone doesn't like the Samson rail on the one Adams upper than they can simply buy a standard midlength upper with polymer handguards for less and go with a variety of choices. You get more for money with one instead of spending more money on something your getting less for. People do things all the time that make no sense to me though. I hope LWRC lowers their prices, but I doubt it, just like POF.


Standard midlength upper


87GN  [Team Member]
7/20/2010 8:29:34 PM EST
Originally Posted By Blivalbloval:
Originally Posted By 87GN:
Originally Posted By Blivalbloval:
Your statement that the logo commands a higher price is laughable.


You are getting a lot more than a logo with some of the brands.



You can disagree, it's your outlook. From my experience at certain point with some manufacturers you basically are. Let's take these two uppers for example, and how about you guys explain to me the value for the difference in price. Since the LWRC M6A2 upper comes with a set of Troy BUIS which normally go for $99 for the front and $119 for the rear, and 3 Tango Down rail covers which normally go for about $15 or so a piece, and a h2 buffer with spring worth about $35, we'll take roughly $298 off the price of the LWRC compared to the Adams leaving a difference of $673.


M6A2 At Expedition Exchange for $1920

Adams 16inch Tactical Upper at Rainier for $949.00


Please explain what you're getting for that difference of $673 in the M6A2 which is round about a normal price for this upper, because I'm not seeing it. Especially for a system I'm stuck with their handguard that I have to take apart to get to the system. To me, that particularly is worth less, not more. The Samson handguard Adams is using is a very good quality handguard from my experience and so are their barrels. The piston system is also top notch.





Those prices are insane. SGC has complete M6A3s for $1800 or 1900 a while back. I have a low opinion of both the LWRC and Samson rails but would take the LWRC over the Samson. If we take the current price for an M6A2 at SGC of $2080 and subtract $100 for an EMod and $300 for the lower with the nickel boron fire control group, and the $300 worth of stuff you mentioned earlier, we get $1380, or about $430 more than the AA upper.

So the LWRC has a hammer forged, nitrided 1/7 barrel, the nickel boron carrier, probably the 9310 alloy fancy bolt, and so on. For an additional $430 or so. If you bought the M6A3 during the sale (or from the other retailer named above), the difference would have been around 200 bucks. The features of the LWRC are worth that much more to me.

Now, all that said, it'll be a cold day in hell before I shell out $2000 for an LWRC. I am perfectly happy with my standard ARs. But for someone with money looking for a piston upper, they get more than "just a logo" when they buy an LWRC. Of course, if you want to cherry pick high prices and ignore the difference between a standard carrier and a nickel boron plated one, or a 1/9 button rifled barrel and a 1/7 hammer forged one, or a "who knows" bolt and one made from 9310, and so on... I guess it is "just a logo" to you.


If you look above, I didn't provide that link, it was provided as example which is the main reason I used it, but it's reasonably close to standard prices. Standard prices are what matter. Adams has switched to a 1 in 7 barrel as mentioned and have always nitrided theirs as they do the piston parts. The hammer forging is the main difference, but not worth that much more.

I have a fair amount of time on LWRC's and know quite well there a quality AR. An excellent piston AR in my opinion, but there not worth more money nor are they a better system. The extra's like furniture and sights a person can easily buy seperately. I could have bought an LWRC with my previous piston AR and I could have bought one with my current, but didn't for good reason.

We both have our opinions, but a person is certainly paying in part for the LWRC logo when they buy one, hyped as it has been here to pay what it costs for one. If someone doesn't like the Samson rail on the one Adams upper than they can simply buy a standard midlength upper with polymer handguards for less and go with a variety of choices. You get more for money with one instead of spending more money on something your getting less for. I hope LWRC lowers their prices, but I doubt it, just like POF.


Standard midlength upper




Again, if you look around, you can find the LWRC for (comparing apples to apples) about $200 more. You continue to ignore the nickel boron plating and the improved alloy bolt. "Reasonably close to standard prices"? Complete M6A2s are currently available for $21 less than that. How is getting a complete lower with a nickel boron FCG and a Vltor EMod for free "reasonably close"?

POF manufactures a receiver that is completely different than the standard one for specific reasons. They also have a heat sink barrel nut and a big fluted barrel as well as a handguard intended to draw in cool air and allow hot air to escape faster. The design lends itself very well to high volumes of fire. Again, you may not need/want these items because of the additional cost they bring, but to ignore them and just say that the only difference between a POF and an AA upper is a logo is sheer foolishness.

Debating with you is pointless because you continue to ignore the facts that tear your "argument" to shreds. You are reduced to overused phrases like "more for your money" and make excuses for basing your argument on inflated prices because you know deep down that if you had bothered to look for realistic ones, the legs of your argument would begin to fall away. Keep in mind, you're the one who foolishly chose to put a very specific number in big letters in order to make a point.
Blivalbloval  [Member]
7/20/2010 8:47:42 PM EST
Originally Posted By 87GN:
Originally Posted By Blivalbloval:
Originally Posted By 87GN:
Originally Posted By Blivalbloval:
Your statement that the logo commands a higher price is laughable.


You are getting a lot more than a logo with some of the brands.



You can disagree, it's your outlook. From my experience at certain point with some manufacturers you basically are. Let's take these two uppers for example, and how about you guys explain to me the value for the difference in price. Since the LWRC M6A2 upper comes with a set of Troy BUIS which normally go for $99 for the front and $119 for the rear, and 3 Tango Down rail covers which normally go for about $15 or so a piece, and a h2 buffer with spring worth about $35, we'll take roughly $298 off the price of the LWRC compared to the Adams leaving a difference of $673.


M6A2 At Expedition Exchange for $1920

Adams 16inch Tactical Upper at Rainier for $949.00


Please explain what you're getting for that difference of $673 in the M6A2 which is round about a normal price for this upper, because I'm not seeing it. Especially for a system I'm stuck with their handguard that I have to take apart to get to the system. To me, that particularly is worth less, not more. The Samson handguard Adams is using is a very good quality handguard from my experience and so are their barrels. The piston system is also top notch.





Those prices are insane. SGC has complete M6A3s for $1800 or 1900 a while back. I have a low opinion of both the LWRC and Samson rails but would take the LWRC over the Samson. If we take the current price for an M6A2 at SGC of $2080 and subtract $100 for an EMod and $300 for the lower with the nickel boron fire control group, and the $300 worth of stuff you mentioned earlier, we get $1380, or about $430 more than the AA upper.

So the LWRC has a hammer forged, nitrided 1/7 barrel, the nickel boron carrier, probably the 9310 alloy fancy bolt, and so on. For an additional $430 or so. If you bought the M6A3 during the sale (or from the other retailer named above), the difference would have been around 200 bucks. The features of the LWRC are worth that much more to me.

Now, all that said, it'll be a cold day in hell before I shell out $2000 for an LWRC. I am perfectly happy with my standard ARs. But for someone with money looking for a piston upper, they get more than "just a logo" when they buy an LWRC. Of course, if you want to cherry pick high prices and ignore the difference between a standard carrier and a nickel boron plated one, or a 1/9 button rifled barrel and a 1/7 hammer forged one, or a "who knows" bolt and one made from 9310, and so on... I guess it is "just a logo" to you.


If you look above, I didn't provide that link, it was provided as example which is the main reason I used it, but it's reasonably close to standard prices. Standard prices are what matter. Adams has switched to a 1 in 7 barrel as mentioned and have always nitrided theirs as they do the piston parts. The hammer forging is the main difference, but not worth that much more.

I have a fair amount of time on LWRC's and know quite well there a quality AR. An excellent piston AR in my opinion, but there not worth more money nor are they a better system. The extra's like furniture and sights a person can easily buy seperately. I could have bought an LWRC with my previous piston AR and I could have bought one with my current, but didn't for good reason.

We both have our opinions, but a person is certainly paying in part for the LWRC logo when they buy one, hyped as it has been here to pay what it costs for one. If someone doesn't like the Samson rail on the one Adams upper than they can simply buy a standard midlength upper with polymer handguards for less and go with a variety of choices. You get more for money with one instead of spending more money on something your getting less for. I hope LWRC lowers their prices, but I doubt it, just like POF.


Standard midlength upper




Again, if you look around, you can find the LWRC for (comparing apples to apples) about $200 more. You continue to ignore the nickel boron plating and the improved alloy bolt. "Reasonably close to standard prices"? Complete M6A2s are currently available for $21 less than that. How is getting a complete lower with a nickel boron FCG and a Vltor EMod for free "reasonably close"?

POF manufactures a receiver that is completely different than the standard one for specific reasons. They also have a heat sink barrel nut and a big fluted barrel as well as a handguard intended to draw in cool air and allow hot air to escape faster. The design lends itself very well to high volumes of fire. Again, you may not need/want these items because of the additional cost they bring, but to ignore them and just say that the only difference between a POF and an AA upper is a logo is sheer foolishness.

Debating with you is pointless because you continue to ignore the facts that tear your "argument" to shreds. You are reduced to overused phrases like "more for your money" and make excuses for basing your argument on inflated prices because you know deep down that if you had bothered to look for realistic ones, the legs of your argument would begin to fall away. Keep in mind, you're the one who foolishly chose to put a very specific number in big letters in order to make a point.


I ignore the nickel boron plating and "improved" bolt, because it makes no practical difference. If you want to pay for something that makes no difference and is nothing but window dressing, go ahead. You haven't torn any argument to shreds. Only in your mind. You can talk shit as you are all you want, it's still shit. Yeh, debating with you is pointless also.





nickybh  [Member]
7/20/2010 9:09:08 PM EST
I would look at the Adam's Competition Piston Upper as a great place to build from. It has lots of great features.

Also, Adams has a Lifetime Warranty.



sledboy  [Member]
7/21/2010 6:28:04 AM EST
Sabre is known for it's quality. If I were building one right now, I would seriously consider the Competition Deluxe Piston from Sabre Defense. If chrome is important to you, then go with the M4 Tactical Piston Carbine. Yes, it has the Adams Arms system but I feel it has been proven to be as robust as any of the others.

Or just go with the Adams Arms Tactical mid-length upper as stated above!
87GN  [Team Member]
7/21/2010 6:44:00 AM EST
Originally Posted By Blivalbloval:

I ignore the nickel boron plating and "improved" bolt, because it makes no practical difference. If you want to pay for something that makes no difference and is nothing but window dressing, go ahead. You haven't torn any argument to shreds. Only in your mind. You can talk shit as you are all you want, it's still shit. Yeh, debating with you is pointless also.



In other words, you don't know enough to make a determination about their usefulness. How is a bolt made of an unknown material with unknown testing procedures "no different" than one made from 9310?

The price difference is somewhere in between $200 and $400, much closer to the low end if you bother to look around (In fact, I found a dealer selling a NIB M6A2 upper for $1399, making the price difference about $150 once we take out your figure of $300 for the additional parts, but this seems to be an oitlier, most are about $250 more than the AA tactical upper). The going rate for a nickel boron'd carrier group is about $70 more than a standard carrier. The going rate for a nickel boron fire control group is about $30 more than a standard FCG. 9310 bolt, another $30 more. Hammer forged barrels are currently carrying a premium of about $70 over standard barrels. That's $230.

Remember your statement and questions:

Originally Posted By Blivalbloval:
A piston AR after the piston system is just like a DI AR. The sum of it's parts. Quality made is quality made, but there's a point to how better one part is than the next and what constitutes the price. From barrel to receivers, part kits used to assembly, there is only so much one can do to make a good rifle, but some still feel their logo alone makes it worth more.
(that's basically the way I look at it anyways)




Originally Posted By Blivalbloval:

Please explain what you're getting for that difference of $673 in the M6A2 which is round about a normal price for this upper, because I'm not seeing it.



The difference has been explained to you. The price increases for the individual features are conservatively estimated. When realistic prices are used, and the additional parts are taken away, and the actual cost of the additional features removed, there is hardly any price difference between the two. If the LWRC is overpriced, then so is the AA.

Remember my initial statement:

Originally Posted By 87GN:
The POFs and LWRCs are more expensive because they offer more features...

If the features aren't important to you, fine...

Your statement that the logo commands a higher price is laughable.


I get it. You don't understand the additional features. That doesn't change the fact that people are willing to pay those additional amounts for them, and the company has apparently found them useful.

I searched your recent posts in the AR forum. There's hardly a single post you've made that isn't bashing another manufacturer or praising AA. Very interesting.
castor  [Member]
7/21/2010 8:17:01 AM EST
Well, the short list:
-PSW
-Addax
-Adams
-Noveske

I don't want a LWRC just because I don't want to take the hand guard of (personal preference) as I want more options for lasers, optics, lights, etc.
87GN  [Team Member]
7/21/2010 11:12:46 AM EST
Originally Posted By castor:
Well, the short list:
-PSW
-Addax
-Adams
-Noveske

I don't want a LWRC just because I don't want to take the hand guard of (personal preference) as I want more options for lasers, optics, lights, etc.


I was unaware that Noveske made a piston/op-rod AR. Noveske has in the past been opposed to them and I don't see anything new on their website.
14Kfgk14  [Member]
7/21/2010 2:23:40 PM EST
IDK about the POF 415/416's, but my experience with their P308 has been excellent. It runs like a clock and is incredibly precise. Sorry to bring up a weapon the OP didn't mention, but this was the only contribution I could make, aside from that the PWS is fun and AA's are pretty damn good.
castor  [Member]
7/21/2010 8:36:57 PM EST
Originally Posted By 87GN:
Originally Posted By castor:
Well, the short list:
-PSW
-Addax
-Adams
-Noveske

I don't want a LWRC just because I don't want to take the hand guard of (personal preference) as I want more options for lasers, optics, lights, etc.


I was unaware that Noveske made a piston/op-rod AR. Noveske has in the past been opposed to them and I don't see anything new on their website.


____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

My bad, you are right, so noveske is out, PWS, Addax or Adams...
shade_1313  [Life Member]
7/21/2010 9:23:07 PM EST
Originally Posted By 87GN:

The price difference is somewhere in between $200 and $400, much closer to the low end if you bother to look around (In fact, I found a dealer selling a NIB M6A2 upper for $1399, making the price difference about $150 once we take out your figure of $300 for the additional parts, but this seems to be an oitlier, most are about $250 more than the AA tactical upper). The going rate for a nickel boron'd carrier group is about $70 more than a standard carrier. The going rate for a nickel boron fire control group is about $30 more than a standard FCG. 9310 bolt, another $30 more. Hammer forged barrels are currently carrying a premium of about $70 over standard barrels. That's $230.


If you don't mind me asking, what vendor? I'm in the market for an upper at the moment. IM me if you don't want to publicly say.
mcspecialed  [Member]
7/21/2010 9:28:29 PM EST
I have an upper with a Adams kit installed and it has functioned well. However, My favorite upper is definitely my Addax ATAC upper. Functions perfect and looks awesome.
tvfreakarms  [Member]
7/22/2010 2:59:16 AM EST
I agree with Blivalbloval. I do own a pof myself. Like someone said earlier, lwrc and pof were one of the few companies to start pushing the piston AR's. Since they got there names out first and people started to notice them, they charge more money because of their names, weather they been show cased on tv shows, magazines and what not.

I think they are both good companies but at least if you were going to a higher end piston AR, pof is still cheaper than lwrci.

I thought about buying a lwrci A3 upper (cheapest i could find at the time wasa $1809), but I went with pof because it was about $500 cheaper give or take a few bucks (pof $1325 shipped). To me, that was not worth it. Can anyone explain that to me??? Both barrels are machine gun rated, will shot upwards of 20k+ rds, I believe their both made of metal alloy, unless lwrci makes them with some special titanium alloy, then I can understand for being more expensive. They both use good type of coating on there rifles. So, what gives?

I get they use higher quality coatings and what not, but not to a point where they are almost double the price of another piston brand AR (stag, rra, etc). Eventually all that coating stuff is going to wear off anyways. REPR $3500+??? That is CRAZY. If your going to charge that much at least be more flexible and make it more ambidextrous (like the scar). Even pof .308 version is about $1000 less, but still on the pricey side but not nearly as bad as the lwrci repr. More than likely other piston brand AR's can shoot up to 20k rds (give or take a few).

The price would go down a little if people would stop being idiots and stop paying for the those ridiculous prices. I'll admit i'm one of them, but I got caught up in the moment of buying my first AR about 8months ago. The next time I buy another rifle more than likely I will be looking for better deals.

It's like high end clothing, even though it's made of cotton (just like on your cheaper brand clothing) people will spend a crap load of money for the same material because of the name brand (armani and what not). So, they have a little distinctive style that sets them apart from another brand, but yet the name brand company will charge 10x more. Makes no sense but yet people with pay for them. That's the main reason companies like lwrci won't drop their prices.
venuto  [Member]
7/22/2010 6:56:32 AM EST
+1 for PWS and Addax

Long Stroke pistons.
jBoy723  [Team Member]
7/22/2010 7:07:40 AM EST
Originally Posted By spdski:
Maintenance on the LMT is super easy and you can take the whole gun apart VERY quickly.


I have a couple of LWRC's and a LMT Piston and this is why I prefer the LMT slightly over the LWRC..
SCDonttreadonme  [Life Member]
7/22/2010 7:13:26 PM EST
I have 4 LWRC's uppers and they are fine indeed, but I would not get them again. If you run lots of rounds through them (like taking a Thunder Ranch course) over a weekend
the hand guards losen up and you need to use lock tight. Not a big thing and they function just as they should but the tightening all the time can be a problem in the field. Mine are mostly safe queens other than the 10.5 in 6.8 SPC. Great for tight space.

I am looking for a good 16 inch replacement so this is an interesting thread. I have had good experiences with LMT just not the piston systems yet.... maybe worth a look.
1stID  [Member]
7/23/2010 10:07:48 AM EST
When you say the LWRC handguards loosen up, are you refering to the two captured bolts at the front, or the hanguard itself where it mates with the upper?

Never thought about LT'ing the two bolts before serious use, but sounds like a good idea if that's what you are talking about.
OneSickRifle  [Member]
7/23/2010 8:14:43 PM EST
Originally Posted By shade_1313:
Originally Posted By deevil:
Love my Adam's systems. I didn't think the LWRC could be easily disassembled yet...?


That's the second time I've seen a comment like this lately. Maybe it's just me, but I find the top rail on their handguard removes really quick and easy, and the piston comes apart pretty easy, too.


Originally Posted By shade_1313:
LWRC, that'd be my choice every day of the week.


AGREED!
NRA2  [Team Member]
7/24/2010 5:20:35 AM EST
I recommended a LW to a guy who wanted a piston gun for his job. I went on the site since I hadn't been there in awhile and it was horrible. Couldn't even find what guns they sell; just pics of a new bolt etc. Was I in the wrong site?
NRA2  [Team Member]
7/24/2010 5:36:31 AM EST
Never mind, I found the real site via arfcom not google.......
FrankSL  [Team Member]
7/25/2010 1:04:11 PM EST
Originally Posted By venuto:
+1 for PWS and Addax

Long Stroke pistons.


I've heard very good things about P'WS.

I've been considering a 12" piston upper to use with a suppressor on an SBR. I like some elements of POF but they are just so damn heavy before you throw a can on the end. What do you piston heads recommend?
cmecha  [Member]
7/26/2010 11:01:58 AM EST
I perfer the adams arm kits. very easy to install and easy to disassemble. also from my knowledge the AA kit is being used by Core 15, Spikes tactical, Smith and Wesson, Sabre defense and others as well.
fst96se  [Member]
7/26/2010 12:47:06 PM EST
PWS... GREAT stuff, great bunch of guys too.
aimpointed  [Member]
7/27/2010 9:53:49 PM EST
Not even close.

MRP is the way to go

arcticwarrior  [Team Member]
7/29/2010 5:50:08 AM EST
Ok, I didn't read this whole thread because there are many like it. Here's my two cents.
I love my LWRC. Now on that note, my LWRC is not that easy to disassemble. I'm talking about access to the piston now. If you want to take the rail off, it comes off easy if you have nothing on your rail system. I have a front sling mount, so that has to be taken off first, ect..... As far as quality, it is unmatched IMO.

NOW, quality and Ease of access and dissambly, look into the Osprey Defense Piston System. It disassembles easy and can be converted back to DI in a flash. I love mine. If I had to choose between my LWRC and Osprey Defense setup and could only keep one, well, I'd give them the family cat instead. I love both of these rifles.
bwp777  [Member]
7/30/2010 3:35:10 AM EST
PWS.PWS.PWS.PWS.PWS.PWS.PWS.PWS.PWS.PWS.PWS. Are you getting the point yet? PWS.PWS.PWS.PWS.PWS.PWS.PWS.PWS.PWS.PWS!
Fishin6061  [Member]
7/30/2010 11:14:45 AM EST
I am also considering a lwrc. How often do you have to access the piston for maintanance?
OneSickRifle  [Member]
7/31/2010 8:17:00 AM EST
I do it after every time to the range. Although im sure you can go 1000-2500rds before it would be really dirty.
jasonusvi  [Member]
8/2/2010 5:41:31 AM EST
Originally Posted By spdski:
Maintenance on the LMT is super easy and you can take the whole gun apart VERY quickly.


+1 ... Unlike the HK 416 for example it has a standard non proprietary bolt. Love my 12" LMT MRP piston... and the fact that I can swap it to 18" DI middy barrel or my 14.5" DI 6.8 barrel at will. Looking forward to the 6.8 piston barrel for about $350 later this year.
EaZeNuTZ33  [Member]
8/2/2010 7:12:50 AM EST
Originally Posted By Fishin6061:
I am also considering a lwrc. How often do you have to access the piston for maintanance?


I've cleaned it a couple times in 1800 rounds....complete waste of time, but made it shiny with new Slip 2000 EWL on it.
It seriously cleaned NOTHING off the piston system, but my liberal inlaws hate guns, so I take it and "clean it" everytime I go over there whether I have shot it or not (mostly wiping fresh oil on her, racking the bolt a time or two since they hate it...)

I picked up my LWRC M6A3 as a silencer host.....and I owned the silencer FIRST. The top part of the rail being removable is easy to do unless you attach something that is not easily removable. I attached a weapon light to the top part of the rail using a VLTOR offset light mount, and a sling attachment to the left side of the rail using the QD points. When I go to remove the top rail I simply pull the Magpul ladders off the sides, unscrew the 2 front retaining screws and lift the top rail off. Only time I've had to spend any time taking the top rail off was when I mounted a Daniel Defense QD mount to the rail.....it had to be unscrewed and slid off the rail to remove the top rail. Considering you dont have to clean the piston very often at all, I dont consider that much of an issue.

I've taken my barrel down to 12.5" and can also still remove my midlength piston without having to remove the M4-2000 silencer mount as well.....so that was part of my decision as well.

I've been more impressed with my LWRC than any previous AR type rifle I've owned so far, BUT I will say the price of it will make me think twice before I buy another upper or complete rifle again. This rifle was a ONE rifle, completely set up, with no costs considered.....and that was followed down to every single part and accessory. Its my "go-to" rifle...other rifles will not likely cost half what this setup did.
Fishin6061  [Member]
8/2/2010 3:02:02 PM EST
The more I read about and fondle the M6A2 lwrc the more i think it is aactually a great value considering the coatings, engineerining, and quality parts that come with the complete rifle.
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