Experimental sniper ammo auction. Hold on to your shorts!

A friend sent me this auction, it's not his nore mine, but wanted to share in case anyone had a lot of money to throw around.

http://www.gunauction.com/buy/10800961/collectible-ammo-for-sale/collectible-ammo-other/viet-nam-sniper-pack-experimental-30-06-ammo

Thanks Rriggs first of those I've seen. I remember when a 500 round ammo can of 06 came with general purpose FMJ ammo , tracer and match/sniper ammo in the same can and they were less than $100ea and many times it was already on a 8 rd stripper clip. Might still have a few cans laying around somewhere. Kinda remember the sniper ammo being black tipped. Heck I may have to take the garand out for a little run in the field.

Black tip is armor piercing. Not recommended for sniper use as it will wear barrels out faster.

Thanks Rob probably haven't shot my garand in 10 years. Guess that's why they call you M1Sniper. I use a chainsaw now days to fall trees. Just remember there were at least three different kinds in the ammo cans and thought black was match grade. Explains shooting big trees in half though.. Set up a few targets and trees behind them would fall down, sometimes pretty big trees. Stuff would eat right through them. Would you mind refreshing my memory on match grade ammo markings. Real pain in rump to get at my 06 ammo stash and appears I don't even know what I'm looking at, not that I'm really planning on using much of it with replacement costs being what they are. Kinda wrong forum anyway. Tracer was pretty easy to identify. I've been into .556 for the last few years and that I can get my hands on pretty darn fast. Don't have much MK-262 but plenty of Hornady 75gr BT A-Max hand loads..

.308 NM >http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=289013806
30.06 NM>http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=289352027
ETA,,as far as I know,only Frankford Arsenal and Lake City made the NM stuff. I could be wrong tho.

This is what I thought as well. I have some of the M72 30-06 match rounds. I believe you do as well Rob.

Another night of learning something. I had a bunch of the .308 M-118 in those NM marked boxes that the funshow dealers used to pay me rather well or swap for. Thinking mine had late 50's dates on them. Actually I don't have a .308 of any kind now. Always wanted a .308 garand. Did have a H&K 91 25 yrs ago and it wasn't much good except with the NM ammo or swapping out the trigger assembly for some happy fire. Guess there isn't much on GB or the EE if we're (retroheads) having this conversation.

I wouldn't mind having some of that M118NM!! Need to try and track some down for my M40.

double tap

Steel Core 7.62x54 chops down trees just fine too. WHich reminds me, my Mosin needs shooting. Dammit, I still have work to do tommorrow, will I make it out to shoot? Doesn't look good.

What contributes to the faster barrel wear? Is it a larger powder charge, or is the jacket material different? I thought the AP rounds were basically the same as the normal M2 ball but with a hardened steel core?

Steel Core 7.62x54 chops down trees just fine too. WHich reminds me, my Mosin needs shooting. Dammit, I still have work to do tommorrow, will I make it out to shoot? Doesn't look good

Shooting a Mosin, you are a glutten for punishment.

8mm Mauser isn't good for trees either. My shoulder holds up under the garand much better than my Mosin or 8mm Mauser. Took a current marine buddy shooting and gave him 5 rds and the Mosin. He handed it back after shooting three rounds with tears in his eyes and said " I ain't no pussy! but I think that rifle just did permanent shoulder damage". Definately a rifle to hit what you're shooting at with the first round. Never tried a 38/44 but if they hit harder than than a 31 I think I'll pass. My 338 Win Mag in a carbine chassis doesn't kick as hard. Will deafen you but it doesn't kick as hard as my 1891/31.

It is amazing the damage those old C&R's will do especially for the coins. I bought a 1891/31 Mosin and a 6.5 1896 Swede when Roses quit selling guns with a box of ammo for each for less than $110 and the salesman let me pick them out of the crates in the back. Both the Swede (brass plate) and Mosin (sight stamp) have a 1 stamped on them. Nice and deadly! I believe I'd put that $60 Swede up against most anything made with irons inside a 1/2 mile. Ground hog night mare for sure. Maybe a little overkill but it sure makes a bloody mess most every time. If our soldiers today had to shoot those old C&R's I doubt if we'd even have an army.

Those WWII Russian woman sniper's had to be tough as nails. Most I've ever shot at one time was 70 rounds 7.62x54R and another 50 rounds of 8mm Mauser and I knew it. I'll shoot most anything once but the next day I was on-line looking for a padded shooting vest.

Almost 40 years of collecting and I've never seen nor heard of 5 round spam cans of ammo for air drop......Wow, pretty darn cool.

Lil added info:
Shells designed for this purpose had a greatly strengthened case with a specially hardened and shaped nose and a much smaller bursting charge. Some smaller caliber AP shells have an inert filling, or incendiary charge in place of the HE bursting charge.

The most widely used armor piercing bullets in the world are made of a hardened steel, tungsten-carbide, or depleted uranium penetrator enclosed within a softer material, such as copper or aluminum. The depleted uranium rounds, for instance, take advantage of their high-density material, designed to retain its shape and carry the maximum possible amount of energy as deep as possible into the target.



The armor piercing bullets fired from rifles are strengthened with a copper or cupro-nickel jacket, much like the jacket that surrounds lead in a conventional projectile, a jacket which is destroyed upon impact to allow the penetrating charge to continue its movement through the targeted substance.

One of the most famous types of APBs used in the past were the teflon-coated bullets. Contrary to popular belief, the teflon coating did not in itself help the bullet penetrate deeper, instead it was meant to help reduce the wear on the barrel as a result of firing hardened projectiles. The strange fact is that this misconception even produced laws that lead to the restricted use of these bullets, eventually leading to their extinction.

An interesting fact, that most people don't know about, is that it's not enough to have the armor-piercing bullet, you must also have a modified barrel, in order to take advantage of the bullet's ability.

The famous example of such a blunder was the assassination attempt on US President Ronald Reagan that took place on March 30, 1981. Then, the shooter used an armor piercing bullet with a normal revolver, which actually deprived the bullet of its ability, contributing to the bullet missing the heart by less than one inch and piercing his left lung instead, which likely spared his life.

Since 1986, according to Title 18, U.S. Code Section 922, no one may manufacture or import armor-piercing ammunition for civilian use, nor may manufacturers or importers sell or deliver such ammunition to civilians without the permission of the attorney general.

This is unmitigated BS. Hinckley used a .22 LR revolver loaded with the novelty Bingham Ltd. 'Devastator' round. The projectile was advertised to "explode", not be AP. The one that hit Reagan didn't explode, nor did it hit body armor.

I believe the point here is that you shouldn't use AP as match ammo.

The Gipper was hit by a ricochet off the Limo....

Actually for a time after WW2, some folks would use M2 AP in matches as many believed it was more accurate than M2 Ball.

That maybe. Key word in your post is "believed". M72 match is NOT standard ball. However, I'm not going to get into any internet pissing contests. That's like pissing on an electric fence with a head wind. OUT.

Interesting added info..Back to the "use or not use" AP in target rifles I can only add my personal experience. Back in the late 70s-early 80s when I was just learning about all this stuff and both ball M2 and AP was plentiful,I had a lot of each.Someone well respected on military firearms (I wanna say Bill Ricca as he taught me so much) recommended not to shoot AP in collector grade M1 Garands as it will wear it out faster.At the time I had several M1s,so,I played with 2 of them.In one of my WW2 Garands I would only shoot M2 ball,,in my 53 dated M1 I would shoot AP.Both barrels gauged very close to each other,I figured the 53 date barrel would be cheaper to replace.Every so often I would re-gauge them both,,and sure enough,after 8 or 10 years, the 53 date barrel showed significantly more wear with the same number of rounds down range.Just my experience,YMMV.

My comment was merely a historical note. This practice long predated the 1957 introduction of the T291 (pre-M72 Match) cartridge. The use of M2 AP in National Matches was also prohibited.

Thanks Rob and Dewatters,
I have to say the black tip ammo was very accurate out of my only 8 rd fired before I got it from a Korean war veteran International Harvester M-1 garand the reason I thought it was match grade. Rifle was purchased according to original owner by a program similar to CMP for war veterans at $40 around 1955.

AP is 163 grain, as opposed to 172 for match and 150 for ball. Years ago a crusty old USMC gunner told me that AP was not supposed to be fired out of two-groove Springfield barrels, as the pressures would be higher. I was also told that the solid AP core didn't 'compress' like a lead core and pressures would be higher. Don't the solid-copper hinting-type bullets have concentric rings around the bearing surface of the projectile in order to allow metal displacement to reduce pressure ?

I was always told the AP didn't compress within the bore as much as lead cored ammo so it would wearthe throat more. I never really looked into it beyond that, it sounded as though it made some sense but lots of wives tales do too. If it IS the case then why would the Ruskis use iron cores in their bullets? seems the cost savigs on lead would lead to more expense in worn out barrels?

The Russkies use a layer of copper, then lead then steel so it swages to the bore like normal.

Our AP is just copper over steel.

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