Archived Posts » 60,595,333
pistol cheek weld
5/8/2012 4:40:35 PM
does anyone other than CAA make a cheek weld that clamps onto a pistol buffer tube?
5/9/2012 8:22:20 AM
Oh the grey area, none that have been accepted by the boys with a badge.
5/9/2012 11:29:35 AM
Originally Posted By LastRites:
Oh the grey area, none that have been accepted by the boys with a badge.
Oh the grey area, none that have been accepted by the boys with a badge.
The cheek rest is not a stock and doesn't magically make the receiver extension a stock. ATF letter shown on this page
ONLY a stock is a stock.
A receiver extension is not a stock.
A rubber cane tip on the end of the receiver extension is not a stock.
A storage compartment or 'cheek weld or storage container' is not a stock nor does it make the receiver extension a stock.
Now if people want to talk about all the MANY different ways local LEOs may be ignorant about the BATF's 'opinions' that are enforced as though they are laws ... well there is not much we can do about that. Printing the BATF letters for the ignorant folk and staying up the the BATF's opinions that are enforced as though they are laws is about all you can do.
5/9/2012 8:26:57 PM
Originally Posted By RandyStacyE:
The cheek rest is not a stock and doesn't magically make the receiver extension a stock. ATF letter shown on this page
ONLY a stock is a stock.
A receiver extension is not a stock.
A rubber cane tip on the end of the receiver extension is not a stock.
A storage compartment or 'cheek weld or storage container' is not a stock nor does it make the receiver extension a stock.
Now if people want to talk about all the MANY different ways local LEOs may be ignorant about the BATF's 'opinions' that are enforced as though they are laws ... well there is not much we can do about that. Printing the BATF letters for the ignorant folk and staying up the the BATF's opinions that are enforced as though they are laws is about all you can do.
Well then please enlighten us as to the definition of a stock.Originally Posted By LastRites:
Oh the grey area, none that have been accepted by the boys with a badge.
Oh the grey area, none that have been accepted by the boys with a badge.
The cheek rest is not a stock and doesn't magically make the receiver extension a stock. ATF letter shown on this page
ONLY a stock is a stock.
A receiver extension is not a stock.
A rubber cane tip on the end of the receiver extension is not a stock.
A storage compartment or 'cheek weld or storage container' is not a stock nor does it make the receiver extension a stock.
Now if people want to talk about all the MANY different ways local LEOs may be ignorant about the BATF's 'opinions' that are enforced as though they are laws ... well there is not much we can do about that. Printing the BATF letters for the ignorant folk and staying up the the BATF's opinions that are enforced as though they are laws is about all you can do.
5/9/2012 8:40:16 PM
Anyone that does not know what a stock is probably shouldn't be messing around with AR pistols.
5/10/2012 2:29:10 PM
Originally Posted By RandyStacyE:
Anyone that does not know what a stock is probably shouldn't be messing around with AR pistols.
Anyone that does not know what a stock is probably shouldn't be messing around with AR pistols.
X2
5/10/2012 4:18:37 PM
Originally Posted By iNeXile556:
Originally Posted By RandyStacyE:
The cheek rest is not a stock and doesn't magically make the receiver extension a stock. ATF letter shown on this page
ONLY a stock is a stock.
A receiver extension is not a stock.
A rubber cane tip on the end of the receiver extension is not a stock.
A storage compartment or 'cheek weld or storage container' is not a stock nor does it make the receiver extension a stock.
Now if people want to talk about all the MANY different ways local LEOs may be ignorant about the BATF's 'opinions' that are enforced as though they are laws ... well there is not much we can do about that. Printing the BATF letters for the ignorant folk and staying up the the BATF's opinions that are enforced as though they are laws is about all you can do.
Well then please enlighten us as to the definition of a stock.
Originally Posted By LastRites:
Oh the grey area, none that have been accepted by the boys with a badge.
Oh the grey area, none that have been accepted by the boys with a badge.
The cheek rest is not a stock and doesn't magically make the receiver extension a stock. ATF letter shown on this page
ONLY a stock is a stock.
A receiver extension is not a stock.
A rubber cane tip on the end of the receiver extension is not a stock.
A storage compartment or 'cheek weld or storage container' is not a stock nor does it make the receiver extension a stock.
Now if people want to talk about all the MANY different ways local LEOs may be ignorant about the BATF's 'opinions' that are enforced as though they are laws ... well there is not much we can do about that. Printing the BATF letters for the ignorant folk and staying up the the BATF's opinions that are enforced as though they are laws is about all you can do.
Does the definition of a rifle include the term "stock", or is it "Intended to be fired from the shoulder?" I thought it was the latter, which leaves it vague enough to actually need letters about tube saddles, cane tips, etc. If anything in the definition of a rifle included the word stock, then there would be no question about a cane tips, paracord wraps, saddles, etc - as those are not stocks. Please tell me if I'm wrong. I have tried Googling for "ATF's definition of a rifle", but cannot find what I'm looking for.
5/11/2012 4:14:33 PM
Originally Posted By wintermute:
Does the definition of a rifle include the term "stock", or is it "Intended to be fired from the shoulder?" I thought it was the latter, which leaves it vague enough to actually need letters about tube saddles, cane tips, etc. If anything in the definition of a rifle included the word stock, then there would be no question about a cane tips, paracord wraps, saddles, etc - as those are not stocks. Please tell me if I'm wrong. I have tried Googling for "ATF's definition of a rifle", but cannot find what I'm looking for.
Originally Posted By iNeXile556:
Originally Posted By RandyStacyE:
The cheek rest is not a stock and doesn't magically make the receiver extension a stock. ATF letter shown on this page
ONLY a stock is a stock.
A receiver extension is not a stock.
A rubber cane tip on the end of the receiver extension is not a stock.
A storage compartment or 'cheek weld or storage container' is not a stock nor does it make the receiver extension a stock.
Now if people want to talk about all the MANY different ways local LEOs may be ignorant about the BATF's 'opinions' that are enforced as though they are laws ... well there is not much we can do about that. Printing the BATF letters for the ignorant folk and staying up the the BATF's opinions that are enforced as though they are laws is about all you can do.
Well then please enlighten us as to the definition of a stock.Originally Posted By LastRites:
Oh the grey area, none that have been accepted by the boys with a badge.
Oh the grey area, none that have been accepted by the boys with a badge.
The cheek rest is not a stock and doesn't magically make the receiver extension a stock. ATF letter shown on this page
ONLY a stock is a stock.
A receiver extension is not a stock.
A rubber cane tip on the end of the receiver extension is not a stock.
A storage compartment or 'cheek weld or storage container' is not a stock nor does it make the receiver extension a stock.
Now if people want to talk about all the MANY different ways local LEOs may be ignorant about the BATF's 'opinions' that are enforced as though they are laws ... well there is not much we can do about that. Printing the BATF letters for the ignorant folk and staying up the the BATF's opinions that are enforced as though they are laws is about all you can do.
Does the definition of a rifle include the term "stock", or is it "Intended to be fired from the shoulder?" I thought it was the latter, which leaves it vague enough to actually need letters about tube saddles, cane tips, etc. If anything in the definition of a rifle included the word stock, then there would be no question about a cane tips, paracord wraps, saddles, etc - as those are not stocks. Please tell me if I'm wrong. I have tried Googling for "ATF's definition of a rifle", but cannot find what I'm looking for.
That is my point, there is no federal definition of a stock, that's why RandyStacyE and Black-Lions answered my question with a smart ass answer, they can't find one and they don't know the answer.
There is no mention of a stock in the definition of a rifle. It is as you asked "designed and intended to be fired from the shoulder."
It can be found in USC Title 26 Subtitle E Chapter 53 Subchapter B Part I § 5845:
"The term "rifle means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed cartridge."
You cannot actually define a stock and codify it. If you do anything that comes along after that is not a stock and therefore legal. It is the same thing that happened during the AWB and still is happening in California. Some AR-15 type rifles were listed by name in the AWB, those were illegal. But others that were built after the "list" were not because they were not named. So you could not buy say a Colt AR-15 but a Noveske was fine , it was not on the list.
So a stock is defined only by the intent of the design, if it is intended to allow firing the weapon from the shoulder it is a stock, regardless of what the couch commandos may think.
If you think a buffer tube cannot be a stock then stick one on a Glock and see what happens.
5/11/2012 4:53:17 PM
Originally Posted By RandyStacyE:
Anyone that does not know what a stock is probably shouldn't be messing around with AR pistols.
Anyone that does not know what a stock is probably shouldn't be messing around with AR pistols.
Rather than a lame comment, address the issue. It is not as simple and clear as you suggest.
5/11/2012 8:30:15 PM
Originally Posted By Dferg10:
Rather than a lame comment, address the issue. It is not as simple and clear as you suggest.
Originally Posted By RandyStacyE:
Anyone that does not know what a stock is probably shouldn't be messing around with AR pistols.
Anyone that does not know what a stock is probably shouldn't be messing around with AR pistols.
Rather than a lame comment, address the issue. It is not as simple and clear as you suggest.
Please enlighten me !
5/12/2012 5:51:47 PM
This is a tech forum, keep it respectful. ~vermont2nd
5/12/2012 9:29:23 PM
Originally Posted By iNeXile556:
That is my point, there is no federal definition of a stock, that's why RandyStacyE and Black-Lions answered my question with a smart ass answer, they can't find one and they don't know the answer.
There is no mention of a stock in the definition of a rifle. It is as you asked "designed and intended to be fired from the shoulder."
It can be found in USC Title 26 Subtitle E Chapter 53 Subchapter B Part I § 5845:
"The term "rifle means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed cartridge."
You cannot actually define a stock and codify it. If you do anything that comes along after that is not a stock and therefore legal. It is the same thing that happened during the AWB and still is happening in California. Some AR-15 type rifles were listed by name in the AWB, those were illegal. But others that were built after the "list" were not because they were not named. So you could not buy say a Colt AR-15 but a Noveske was fine , it was not on the list.
So a stock is defined only by the intent of the design, if it is intended to allow firing the weapon from the shoulder it is a stock, regardless of what the couch commandos may think.
If you think a buffer tube cannot be a stock then stick one on a Glock and see what happens.
Originally Posted By wintermute:
Does the definition of a rifle include the term "stock", or is it "Intended to be fired from the shoulder?" I thought it was the latter, which leaves it vague enough to actually need letters about tube saddles, cane tips, etc. If anything in the definition of a rifle included the word stock, then there would be no question about a cane tips, paracord wraps, saddles, etc - as those are not stocks. Please tell me if I'm wrong. I have tried Googling for "ATF's definition of a rifle", but cannot find what I'm looking for.
Originally Posted By iNeXile556:
Originally Posted By RandyStacyE:
The cheek rest is not a stock and doesn't magically make the receiver extension a stock. ATF letter shown on this page
ONLY a stock is a stock.
A receiver extension is not a stock.
A rubber cane tip on the end of the receiver extension is not a stock.
A storage compartment or 'cheek weld or storage container' is not a stock nor does it make the receiver extension a stock.
Now if people want to talk about all the MANY different ways local LEOs may be ignorant about the BATF's 'opinions' that are enforced as though they are laws ... well there is not much we can do about that. Printing the BATF letters for the ignorant folk and staying up the the BATF's opinions that are enforced as though they are laws is about all you can do.
Well then please enlighten us as to the definition of a stock.
Originally Posted By LastRites:
Oh the grey area, none that have been accepted by the boys with a badge.
Oh the grey area, none that have been accepted by the boys with a badge.
The cheek rest is not a stock and doesn't magically make the receiver extension a stock. ATF letter shown on this page
ONLY a stock is a stock.
A receiver extension is not a stock.
A rubber cane tip on the end of the receiver extension is not a stock.
A storage compartment or 'cheek weld or storage container' is not a stock nor does it make the receiver extension a stock.
Now if people want to talk about all the MANY different ways local LEOs may be ignorant about the BATF's 'opinions' that are enforced as though they are laws ... well there is not much we can do about that. Printing the BATF letters for the ignorant folk and staying up the the BATF's opinions that are enforced as though they are laws is about all you can do.
Does the definition of a rifle include the term "stock", or is it "Intended to be fired from the shoulder?" I thought it was the latter, which leaves it vague enough to actually need letters about tube saddles, cane tips, etc. If anything in the definition of a rifle included the word stock, then there would be no question about a cane tips, paracord wraps, saddles, etc - as those are not stocks. Please tell me if I'm wrong. I have tried Googling for "ATF's definition of a rifle", but cannot find what I'm looking for.
That is my point, there is no federal definition of a stock, that's why RandyStacyE and Black-Lions answered my question with a smart ass answer, they can't find one and they don't know the answer.
There is no mention of a stock in the definition of a rifle. It is as you asked "designed and intended to be fired from the shoulder."
It can be found in USC Title 26 Subtitle E Chapter 53 Subchapter B Part I § 5845:
"The term "rifle means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed cartridge."
You cannot actually define a stock and codify it. If you do anything that comes along after that is not a stock and therefore legal. It is the same thing that happened during the AWB and still is happening in California. Some AR-15 type rifles were listed by name in the AWB, those were illegal. But others that were built after the "list" were not because they were not named. So you could not buy say a Colt AR-15 but a Noveske was fine , it was not on the list.
So a stock is defined only by the intent of the design, if it is intended to allow firing the weapon from the shoulder it is a stock, regardless of what the couch commandos may think.
If you think a buffer tube cannot be a stock then stick one on a Glock and see what happens.
Personally, I'd rather lean to the white side of grey and I don't like dick.
5/12/2012 11:11:48 PM
The BATF will likely never define precisely what a stock is because as soon as they do ... someone ingenious guy will devise something that performs the same function yet doesn't conflict with the written definition.
We all know what the function of a stock is. It does allow the weapon to be fired from the shoulder. Duhhhhhhh that's what a stock is. If some moron attaches a crutch to the back of an AR pistol then it is pretty obvious that they are creating a makeshift sock.
The BATF is plenty effective keeping people under their thumb by enforcing their 'opinion' as though it is law (even though it is NOT law). Just read a few topics in this part of the forum and it will be obvious to most (at least I'd hope).
We all know what the function of a stock is. It does allow the weapon to be fired from the shoulder. Duhhhhhhh that's what a stock is. If some moron attaches a crutch to the back of an AR pistol then it is pretty obvious that they are creating a makeshift sock.
The BATF is plenty effective keeping people under their thumb by enforcing their 'opinion' as though it is law (even though it is NOT law). Just read a few topics in this part of the forum and it will be obvious to most (at least I'd hope).
5/13/2012 12:57:30 AM
Way to flip flop. What happened to your "only a stock is a stock" definition?
So now we are in agreement that anything added to facilitate firing from the shoulder is a stock?
So now we are in agreement that anything added to facilitate firing from the shoulder is a stock?
5/13/2012 1:07:10 AM
Originally Posted By RandyStacyE:
The BATF will likely never define precisely what a stock is because as soon as they do ... someone ingenious guy will devise something that performs the same function yet doesn't conflict with the written definition.
We all know what the function of a stock is. It does allow the weapon to be fired from the shoulder. Duhhhhhhh that's what a stock is. If some moron attaches a crutch to the back of an AR pistol then it is pretty obvious that they are creating a makeshift sock.
The BATF is plenty effective keeping people under their thumb by enforcing their 'opinion' as though it is law (even though it is NOT law). Just read a few topics in this part of the forum and it will be obvious to most (at least I'd hope).
The BATF will likely never define precisely what a stock is because as soon as they do ... someone ingenious guy will devise something that performs the same function yet doesn't conflict with the written definition.
We all know what the function of a stock is. It does allow the weapon to be fired from the shoulder. Duhhhhhhh that's what a stock is. If some moron attaches a crutch to the back of an AR pistol then it is pretty obvious that they are creating a makeshift sock.
The BATF is plenty effective keeping people under their thumb by enforcing their 'opinion' as though it is law (even though it is NOT law). Just read a few topics in this part of the forum and it will be obvious to most (at least I'd hope).
Bingo !
Shoulder is the key word not stock. Shouldering is what makes one.
Greygoose I have been looking for more cheek pieces too. I have not come up with one I like yet. I was thinking of trying to find some one with a mchn (CNC?) and have one made to slip over the buffer tube locking down with set screws. It would be one sided with a rail on the other for ??.
5/13/2012 2:15:18 AM
I want to agree with iNeXile556. The question shouldn't be whether some attachment constitutes a "stock," but whether some attachment or device evidences an intent for the weapon to be fired from the shoulder.
Of course, among the items held to evidence an intent to fire a weapon from the shoulder are stocks. Therefore, what constitutes a stock? The circularity arises because of the gray area caused by no legal definition of the word "stock."
We could simplify the equation slightly by defining a stock as anything which evidences an intent to fire a weapon from the shoulder. We know from BATFE rulings that a bare pistol buffer tube does not constitute a "stock." We also know from BATFE rulings that a CAA stock saddle nor a rubber cane grip constitutes a "stock." We also know generally that any device with a loosely rectangular-shaped butt area (such as a mil-spec Magpul Carbine Stock) does constitute a "stock."
Therefore, where the device more closely resembles a bare pistol buffer tube, CAA stock saddle, or rubber can grip, the courts are more likely to find a lack of intent for the weapon to be fired from the shoulder.
Where the device more closely resembles a traditional buttstock having a clearly defined butt area in a loosely shaped rectangle, the courts are more likely to find intent for the weapon to be fired from the shoulder.
In addition, RandyStacyE stated that BATFE opinions (which are rulings) are not law. This is not true. BATFE regulations, rulings, and opinions are law to the same extent that EPA and DOL regulations and rulings are law. Ultimate statutory interpretation rests with the courts, but executive agencies charged with the administration of the laws are given great deference in their rulings and opinions. Deference shown to administrative agency decisions is often referred to as Chevron deference, after the case bearing the same name. In short, "considerable weight should be accorded to executive department's construction of statutory scheme it is entrusted to administer." Chevron, U.S.A., Inc. v. Nat. Resources Def. Council, Inc., 467 U.S. 837 (1984).
Of course, among the items held to evidence an intent to fire a weapon from the shoulder are stocks. Therefore, what constitutes a stock? The circularity arises because of the gray area caused by no legal definition of the word "stock."
We could simplify the equation slightly by defining a stock as anything which evidences an intent to fire a weapon from the shoulder. We know from BATFE rulings that a bare pistol buffer tube does not constitute a "stock." We also know from BATFE rulings that a CAA stock saddle nor a rubber cane grip constitutes a "stock." We also know generally that any device with a loosely rectangular-shaped butt area (such as a mil-spec Magpul Carbine Stock) does constitute a "stock."
Therefore, where the device more closely resembles a bare pistol buffer tube, CAA stock saddle, or rubber can grip, the courts are more likely to find a lack of intent for the weapon to be fired from the shoulder.
Where the device more closely resembles a traditional buttstock having a clearly defined butt area in a loosely shaped rectangle, the courts are more likely to find intent for the weapon to be fired from the shoulder.
In addition, RandyStacyE stated that BATFE opinions (which are rulings) are not law. This is not true. BATFE regulations, rulings, and opinions are law to the same extent that EPA and DOL regulations and rulings are law. Ultimate statutory interpretation rests with the courts, but executive agencies charged with the administration of the laws are given great deference in their rulings and opinions. Deference shown to administrative agency decisions is often referred to as Chevron deference, after the case bearing the same name. In short, "considerable weight should be accorded to executive department's construction of statutory scheme it is entrusted to administer." Chevron, U.S.A., Inc. v. Nat. Resources Def. Council, Inc., 467 U.S. 837 (1984).
5/15/2012 10:00:44 PM
I know this is probably stretching it...a lot, but...if one were to engineer sometime of cusp type device that can be worn like a shoulder holster, and made to cradle the buffer tube. See where I am going? It wouldn't technically be attached to the firearm. And would only be a clothing item, therefore a BATF would likely not be able to say anything. I'm thinking of a devise made from soft rubber, shaped like a U (only slightly extruded to accomodate the stock and allow it to glide 2-4" forward backward) with a plastic kydex insert to reduce drag? Hmmmm, maybe i should engineer and patent such a thing, I am an engineer after all. Oh momma would be proud!
5/17/2012 12:50:29 PM
Ok almost a page not answering the question at hand.
cheek welds.... any besides CAA??
cheek welds.... any besides CAA??
5/17/2012 6:54:54 PM
Originally Posted By greygoose628:
Ok almost a page not answering the question at hand.
cheek welds.... any besides CAA??
No. And actually the CAA isn't made to clamp to a tube, it must be modified. It is made to clamp to the larger diameter of a stock.Ok almost a page not answering the question at hand.
cheek welds.... any besides CAA??
5/17/2012 7:41:53 PM
Im not an AR pistol kinda person, but a stock is certainly meant to be pressed against the shoulder. A device to rest your cheek on is not a stock. I wouldnt worry about that.
5/18/2012 4:07:24 PM
Originally Posted By BenAtTheTube:
I know this is probably stretching it...a lot, but...if one were to engineer sometime of cusp type device that can be worn like a shoulder holster, and made to cradle the buffer tube. See where I am going? It wouldn't technically be attached to the firearm. And would only be a clothing item, therefore a BATF would likely not be able to say anything. I'm thinking of a devise made from soft rubber, shaped like a U (only slightly extruded to accomodate the stock and allow it to glide 2-4" forward backward) with a plastic kydex insert to reduce drag? Hmmmm, maybe i should engineer and patent such a thing, I am an engineer after all. Oh momma would be proud!
I know this is probably stretching it...a lot, but...if one were to engineer sometime of cusp type device that can be worn like a shoulder holster, and made to cradle the buffer tube. See where I am going? It wouldn't technically be attached to the firearm. And would only be a clothing item, therefore a BATF would likely not be able to say anything. I'm thinking of a devise made from soft rubber, shaped like a U (only slightly extruded to accomodate the stock and allow it to glide 2-4" forward backward) with a plastic kydex insert to reduce drag? Hmmmm, maybe i should engineer and patent such a thing, I am an engineer after all. Oh momma would be proud!
When can a wallet become an AOW. When ATF says it is. Do I need to explain?
5/19/2012 11:51:11 AM
To answer the original question. Ace has a cheek rest that clamps onto ACE skeleton stocks (AKFX) Adds 1.0" to the comb height. Cost is $8. I have one on my ace skeleton folding stock and really like it. I am not sure if a bare pistol tube is the same diameter.
5/19/2012 1:46:46 PM
OK, I pulled my ACE riser off and tried to install it on a A2 buffer tube and it will not work. Not even close.
5/26/2012 12:04:37 PM
Originally Posted By iNeXile556:
Originally Posted By greygoose628:
Ok almost a page not answering the question at hand.
cheek welds.... any besides CAA??
No. And actually the CAA isn't made to clamp to a tube, it must be modified. It is made to clamp to the larger diameter of a stock.
Ok almost a page not answering the question at hand.
cheek welds.... any besides CAA??
Mission First Tactical has one similar to the CAA called the EvolV Battle Stock Attachment.
It seems MFT, CAA and EMA Tactical used to all be in the same melting pot but split ways.
