Archived Posts » 59,789,155
Pistol -->SBR---->back to pistol question
12/16/2011 4:35:01 PM
I have a question maybe someone could shed some light on....
If I have an AR pistol and register it with ATF, pay the $200, get the stamp, put the buttstock on it.... can I then take the buttstock off of it and carry it as a pistol?
My real question is––––do I need to "unregister" it with the ATF when I take the buttstock off or can I just carry it without the buttstock and be good to go?
I realize there may not be a clear answer.
~Norinco
If I have an AR pistol and register it with ATF, pay the $200, get the stamp, put the buttstock on it.... can I then take the buttstock off of it and carry it as a pistol?
My real question is––––do I need to "unregister" it with the ATF when I take the buttstock off or can I just carry it without the buttstock and be good to go?
I realize there may not be a clear answer.
~Norinco
12/16/2011 4:45:38 PM
If you take the stock off, it's a pistol. You can even sell it that way and there's not even a requirement that you notify the BATF although it's highly recommended since someone could put the stock back on and claim that you sold it that way.
Once it's a pistol, you can cross state lines without notifying the BATF. But you can't have the stock in your possession at the time.
If your SBR has a forward vertical grip and you remove the stock, it's now an AOW and treated that way. And once again, there is no necessity to notify the BATF since it's already registered.
SBR's are really the Mr. Potato Head of the AR world. The only thing you can't do is make them automatic.
Once it's a pistol, you can cross state lines without notifying the BATF. But you can't have the stock in your possession at the time.
If your SBR has a forward vertical grip and you remove the stock, it's now an AOW and treated that way. And once again, there is no necessity to notify the BATF since it's already registered.
SBR's are really the Mr. Potato Head of the AR world. The only thing you can't do is make them automatic.
12/16/2011 6:22:17 PM
WHAT? If you do an SBR and remove the stock, it is still an SBR. It does not convert mysteriously back to title one firearm/pistol. If you have a VG on your SBR and then remove the stock, it does NOT become an AOW, it is still an SBR, just one without a stock. I have a clone MP5 PDW SBR and asked the ATFE specifically if I could replace the stock with a receiver end cap to make it take the form of the MP5K, and the ATFE replied, sure, go ahead. It's still an SBR and they could not care less if it has the stock on there or not along with or without the VG. It does not become anything other than a non stocked SBR.
And to that end, if it remains an SBR, just one without a stock, I would certainly want to see some proof from the ATFE that says you can take it across state lines without first getting permission from the ATFE. The ATFE also told me that if I wanted to convert my AR SBRs back to standard firearms in order to sell them without a form 4 transfer, I need to convert them back to standard rifle configuration (16 inch plus barrel) and then have it removed from the registry. Once notified it has been removed then I can sell it as a standard rifle. I inquired about this in case I pass away and my son or wife want to sell the rifles and I wanted to know what they would have to do in order not to have to do a form 4 transfer. Remove the short barrel, sell the upper off separately, put on a 16+ inch plus barrel, remove from registry, sell it normally.
And to that end, if it remains an SBR, just one without a stock, I would certainly want to see some proof from the ATFE that says you can take it across state lines without first getting permission from the ATFE. The ATFE also told me that if I wanted to convert my AR SBRs back to standard firearms in order to sell them without a form 4 transfer, I need to convert them back to standard rifle configuration (16 inch plus barrel) and then have it removed from the registry. Once notified it has been removed then I can sell it as a standard rifle. I inquired about this in case I pass away and my son or wife want to sell the rifles and I wanted to know what they would have to do in order not to have to do a form 4 transfer. Remove the short barrel, sell the upper off separately, put on a 16+ inch plus barrel, remove from registry, sell it normally.
12/16/2011 7:10:41 PM
Thank you for the replies...Big-Bore...did you ask the ATF that question before their recent ruling that you could go pistol––-rifle––-then back to pistol?
Just curious. I think that you are probably correct but that's why I'm asking to make sure.
Just curious. I think that you are probably correct but that's why I'm asking to make sure.
12/16/2011 8:59:32 PM
Big-Bore you are a little confused about the SBR thing. There is no requirement to "un"register a SBR to sell it as a title 1 firearm provided it is no longer configured as a SBR.
You may also transport it across state lines as long as it is not configured as a SBR and you do not bring the parts with you to reconfigure it as one, i.e you can install a 16" barrel and take it across state lines to hunt with your buddy.
From the ATF website:
Q: What is the registered part of a Short Barreled Rifle (SBR) or Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS )?
Q: I possess a properly registered or . I intend to strip the receiver and remove the barrel prior to selling the receiver. Is the bare receiver still subject to regulation under the as a SBR or SBS ?
Q: If I remove the short barrel from the registered or , is the receiver still subject to transfer and possession regulations?
Q: Does the installation of a barrel over 16 inches in length (SBR ) or 18 inches in length (SBS ) remove the firearm from the purview of the ? If so, is this considered a permanent change?
Q: Is it necessary to send notification to and receive acknowledgement that the SBR or SBS has been removed from the purview of the before it may be sold as a firearm?
Q: If I remove the short barrel from my SBR or SBS, may I move the firearm across state lines without the submission of Form 5320.20, Application to Transport or to Temporarily Export Certain Firearms?
Q: May the short barrel on an or be replaced with a long barrel for hunting or other purposes, with the intent of replacing the short barrel?
Yes, and you will not be required to again register the firearm before replacing the short barrel. recommends written notification to the Branch when a firearm’s configuration is permanently changed or removed from the purview of the NFA .
Q: May I transfer the receiver of a short-barrel rifle or shotgun to an or to an individual as I would any firearm?
Q: Who is responsible for notifying the Branch when I transfer the firearm to a or another individual?
You may also transport it across state lines as long as it is not configured as a SBR and you do not bring the parts with you to reconfigure it as one, i.e you can install a 16" barrel and take it across state lines to hunt with your buddy.
From the ATF website:
Q: What is the registered part of a Short Barreled Rifle (SBR) or Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS )?
While a receiver alone may be classified as a "firearm” under the Gun Control Act (
),
s and
s are classified in totality under the National Firearms Act (
). A firearm that meets the definition of a
consists of a rifle that has a barrel less than 16 inches in length. A
consists of a shotgun that has a barrel less than 18 inches in length.
The serialized receiver is recorded for registration in the National
Firearms Registration and Transfer Record (
).
Q: I possess a properly registered or . I intend to strip the receiver and remove the barrel prior to selling the receiver. Is the bare receiver still subject to regulation under the as a SBR or SBS ?
A stripped receiver without a barrel does not meet the definition of a
or
under the
. Although the previously registered firearm would remain registered unless the possessor notified the
Branch of the change, there is no provision in statute or regulation
requiring registration of a firearm without a barrel because its
physical characteristics would make it only a
"firearm” pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(3)(B). If the subsequent owner buys the receiver as a
firearm and installs a barrel less than 16 inches in length (SBR
) or 18 inches in length (SBS
), the firearm would be subject to a $200 making tax and registration under the
by the manufacturer or maker of the
or
. Because registration depends upon the stated intent of the applicant, there is no provision to allow registration of a
firearm by anyone other than the maker or manufacturer.
Q: If I remove the short barrel from the registered or , is the receiver still subject to transfer and possession regulations?
If the possessor retains control over the barrel or other parts required to assemble the
or
, the firearm would still be subject to
transfer and possession regulations.
recommends contacting State law enforcement officials to ensure compliance with state and local law.
Q: Does the installation of a barrel over 16 inches in length (SBR ) or 18 inches in length (SBS ) remove the firearm from the purview of the ? If so, is this considered a permanent change?
Installation of a barrel greater than 16 inches in length (SBR
) or 18 inches in length (SBS
) will remove the firearm from the purview of the
provided the registrant does not maintain control over the parts necessary to reconfigure the firearm as a
SBR or SBS
.
Q: Is it necessary to send notification to and receive acknowledgement that the SBR or SBS has been removed from the purview of the before it may be sold as a firearm?
There is no requirement for the possessor of a registered
firearm to notify
that the firearm has been removed from the purview of the
NFA. However, ATF
recommends the possessor notify the
Branch of such changes in writing so that the possessor is not
mistakenly identified as the owner if the firearm is later used in a
crime. If, at the time of
Q: If I remove the short barrel from my SBR or SBS, may I move the firearm across state lines without the submission of Form 5320.20, Application to Transport or to Temporarily Export Certain Firearms?
If the registrant retains control over the parts required to assemble the
or
, the firearm is still be subject to all requirements of the
NFA.
ATF recommends contacting law enforcement officials in the destination state to ensure compliance with state and local law.
Q: May the short barrel on an or be replaced with a long barrel for hunting or other purposes, with the intent of replacing the short barrel?
Yes, and you will not be required to again register the firearm before replacing the short barrel. recommends written notification to the Branch when a firearm’s configuration is permanently changed or removed from the purview of the NFA .
Q: May I transfer the receiver of a short-barrel rifle or shotgun to an or to an individual as I would any firearm?
Yes. A weapon that does not meet the definition of a
"firearm” is not subject to the
and a possessor or transferor needn’t comply with
requirements. The firearm is considered a
firearm and may be transferred under the provisions of that law.
Q: Who is responsible for notifying the Branch when I transfer the firearm to a or another individual?
There is no requirement that the transferor or transferee of a
firearm notify the
branch of a transfer or that either party determine whether the firearm was previously registered under the
. There is no also no requirement for the registrant or possessor of a
firearm to notify
of the removal of features that caused the firearm to be subject to the
; however,
recommends the owner notify the
Branch in writing if a firearm is permanently removed from the
NFA.
12/16/2011 9:02:49 PM
Inexile...
I realize that specifically addresses big-bore's post and is very helpful––-but do you think that taking the buttstock off and not RETAINING CONTROL of it would allow me to carry it as a pistol or has that not been addressed besides big-bore's post?
I realize that specifically addresses big-bore's post and is very helpful––-but do you think that taking the buttstock off and not RETAINING CONTROL of it would allow me to carry it as a pistol or has that not been addressed besides big-bore's post?
12/16/2011 9:12:12 PM
Originally Posted By Norinco982lover:
Inexile...
I realize that specifically addresses big-bore's post and is very helpful––-but do you think that taking the buttstock off and not RETAINING CONTROL of it would allow me to carry it as a pistol or has that not been addressed besides big-bore's post?
Inexile...
I realize that specifically addresses big-bore's post and is very helpful––-but do you think that taking the buttstock off and not RETAINING CONTROL of it would allow me to carry it as a pistol or has that not been addressed besides big-bore's post?
No, in that respect Big-Bore is dead on, it will remain a SBR, just without a stock.
ATF allows the conversion of a pistol to rifle and back to pistol provided the firearm starts as a pistol.
Once the firearm is a SBR you made the firearm on a form1, (application to make a firearm) it is no longer a pistol, even if it was made from one, therefore it cannot go "back" to a pistol.
A pistol can only be originally made as a pistol. Nothing can be made into a pistol.
12/16/2011 11:10:41 PM
Originally Posted By iNeXile556:
No, in that respect Big-Bore is dead on, it will remain a SBR, just without a stock.
ATF allows the conversion of a pistol to rifle and back to pistol provided the firearm starts as a pistol.
Once the firearm is a SBR you made the firearm on a form1, (application to make a firearm) it is no longer a pistol, even if it was made from one, therefore it cannot go "back" to a pistol.
A pistol can only be originally made as a pistol. Nothing can be made into a pistol.
Originally Posted By Norinco982lover:
Inexile...
I realize that specifically addresses big-bore's post and is very helpful––-but do you think that taking the buttstock off and not RETAINING CONTROL of it would allow me to carry it as a pistol or has that not been addressed besides big-bore's post?
Inexile...
I realize that specifically addresses big-bore's post and is very helpful––-but do you think that taking the buttstock off and not RETAINING CONTROL of it would allow me to carry it as a pistol or has that not been addressed besides big-bore's post?
No, in that respect Big-Bore is dead on, it will remain a SBR, just without a stock.
ATF allows the conversion of a pistol to rifle and back to pistol provided the firearm starts as a pistol.
Once the firearm is a SBR you made the firearm on a form1, (application to make a firearm) it is no longer a pistol, even if it was made from one, therefore it cannot go "back" to a pistol.
A pistol can only be originally made as a pistol. Nothing can be made into a pistol.
You're making shit up. And no I'm not posting the letter. Get your own letter.
OP, don't listen to these guys. Write a letter and then you'll have one that will explain what it means to be under the purview of the NFA.
12/16/2011 11:28:03 PM
ETA nvm. Apparently the ATF changed their minds again.
12/17/2011 9:18:52 AM
The easy answer is keep your pistol a pistol, and SBR a new lower (if you are building it) and keep it in a safe. Take the SBR out only when you want to shoot it at the range.
12/17/2011 10:59:49 AM
Originally Posted By FIGJAM:
You're making shit up. And no I'm not posting the letter. Get your own letter.
OP, don't listen to these guys. Write a letter and then you'll have one that will explain what it means to be under the purview of the NFA.
Yea, this from a guy that insists a pistol can be designed to be a 2 handed firearm and still meet the definition of a pistol! Stop spreading misinformation. You can't post a letter because you don't have one. Creep back into the shadows of GD. Originally Posted By iNeXile556:
No, in that respect Big-Bore is dead on, it will remain a SBR, just without a stock.
ATF allows the conversion of a pistol to rifle and back to pistol provided the firearm starts as a pistol.
Once the firearm is a SBR you made the firearm on a form1, (application to make a firearm) it is no longer a pistol, even if it was made from one, therefore it cannot go "back" to a pistol.
A pistol can only be originally made as a pistol. Nothing can be made into a pistol.
Originally Posted By Norinco982lover:
Inexile...
I realize that specifically addresses big-bore's post and is very helpful––-but do you think that taking the buttstock off and not RETAINING CONTROL of it would allow me to carry it as a pistol or has that not been addressed besides big-bore's post?
Inexile...
I realize that specifically addresses big-bore's post and is very helpful––-but do you think that taking the buttstock off and not RETAINING CONTROL of it would allow me to carry it as a pistol or has that not been addressed besides big-bore's post?
No, in that respect Big-Bore is dead on, it will remain a SBR, just without a stock.
ATF allows the conversion of a pistol to rifle and back to pistol provided the firearm starts as a pistol.
Once the firearm is a SBR you made the firearm on a form1, (application to make a firearm) it is no longer a pistol, even if it was made from one, therefore it cannot go "back" to a pistol.
A pistol can only be originally made as a pistol. Nothing can be made into a pistol.
You're making shit up. And no I'm not posting the letter. Get your own letter.
OP, don't listen to these guys. Write a letter and then you'll have one that will explain what it means to be under the purview of the NFA.
A SBR without a stock is not under the purview of the NFA because it is not in SBR configutration, but for CCW it is NOT a pistol and cannot be treated as such.
12/17/2011 1:40:11 PM
I gotcha, shouldn't be hard to grab another $50 lower and $45 LPK.
Thank you for the answers, I think this thread has served its purpose!
Thank you for the answers, I think this thread has served its purpose!
12/17/2011 8:06:50 PM
Originally Posted By Norinco982lover:
My real question is...can I just carry it without the buttstock and be good to go?
My real question is...can I just carry it without the buttstock and be good to go?
The feds don't care what you carry. That's all up to the state. It depends on how KS defines a firearm, and if they only let you carry pistols, or any firearm with your CCW permit (I assume that is what you mean by "carry").
12/17/2011 11:14:00 PM
Originally Posted By GarrettJ:
The feds don't care what you carry. That's all up to the state. It depends on how KS defines a firearm, and if they only let you carry pistols, or any firearm with your CCW permit (I assume that is what you mean by "carry").
Originally Posted By Norinco982lover:
My real question is...can I just carry it without the buttstock and be good to go?
My real question is...can I just carry it without the buttstock and be good to go?
The feds don't care what you carry. That's all up to the state. It depends on how KS defines a firearm, and if they only let you carry pistols, or any firearm with your CCW permit (I assume that is what you mean by "carry").
Handguns only on CCH in Kansas. I have other laws that cover me but just curious as to if it would be a pistol or not f the receiver was registered as an SBR.
12/19/2011 12:16:44 AM
Originally Posted By iNeXile556:
A SBR without a stock is not under the purview of the NFA because it is not in SBR configutration, but for CCW it is NOT a pistol and cannot be treated as such.
Originally Posted By FIGJAM:
You're making shit up. And no I'm not posting the letter. Get your own letter.
OP, don't listen to these guys. Write a letter and then you'll have one that will explain what it means to be under the purview of the NFA.
Yea, this from a guy that insists a pistol can be designed to be a 2 handed firearm and still meet the definition of a pistol! Stop spreading misinformation. You can't post a letter because you don't have one. Creep back into the shadows of GD.
Originally Posted By iNeXile556:
No, in that respect Big-Bore is dead on, it will remain a SBR, just without a stock.
ATF allows the conversion of a pistol to rifle and back to pistol provided the firearm starts as a pistol.
Once the firearm is a SBR you made the firearm on a form1, (application to make a firearm) it is no longer a pistol, even if it was made from one, therefore it cannot go "back" to a pistol.
A pistol can only be originally made as a pistol. Nothing can be made into a pistol.
Originally Posted By Norinco982lover:
Inexile...
I realize that specifically addresses big-bore's post and is very helpful––-but do you think that taking the buttstock off and not RETAINING CONTROL of it would allow me to carry it as a pistol or has that not been addressed besides big-bore's post?
Inexile...
I realize that specifically addresses big-bore's post and is very helpful––-but do you think that taking the buttstock off and not RETAINING CONTROL of it would allow me to carry it as a pistol or has that not been addressed besides big-bore's post?
No, in that respect Big-Bore is dead on, it will remain a SBR, just without a stock.
ATF allows the conversion of a pistol to rifle and back to pistol provided the firearm starts as a pistol.
Once the firearm is a SBR you made the firearm on a form1, (application to make a firearm) it is no longer a pistol, even if it was made from one, therefore it cannot go "back" to a pistol.
A pistol can only be originally made as a pistol. Nothing can be made into a pistol.
You're making shit up. And no I'm not posting the letter. Get your own letter.
OP, don't listen to these guys. Write a letter and then you'll have one that will explain what it means to be under the purview of the NFA.
A SBR without a stock is not under the purview of the NFA because it is not in SBR configutration, but for CCW it is NOT a pistol and cannot be treated as such.
Tsk tsk. I thought you had me on your ingore list, Pete. You shouldn't fib either.
12/21/2011 9:05:52 PM
Originally Posted By FIGJAM:
Tsk tsk. I thought you had me on your ingore list, Pete. You shouldn't fib either.
You are on my list, I can still read your posts when I want a laugh. Who is Pete? You not only have no idea what your talking about, you don't even know who your talking to!Originally Posted By iNeXile556:
A SBR without a stock is not under the purview of the NFA because it is not in SBR configutration, but for CCW it is NOT a pistol and cannot be treated as such.
Originally Posted By FIGJAM:
You're making shit up. And no I'm not posting the letter. Get your own letter.
OP, don't listen to these guys. Write a letter and then you'll have one that will explain what it means to be under the purview of the NFA.
Yea, this from a guy that insists a pistol can be designed to be a 2 handed firearm and still meet the definition of a pistol! Stop spreading misinformation. You can't post a letter because you don't have one. Creep back into the shadows of GD. Originally Posted By iNeXile556:
No, in that respect Big-Bore is dead on, it will remain a SBR, just without a stock.
ATF allows the conversion of a pistol to rifle and back to pistol provided the firearm starts as a pistol.
Once the firearm is a SBR you made the firearm on a form1, (application to make a firearm) it is no longer a pistol, even if it was made from one, therefore it cannot go "back" to a pistol.
A pistol can only be originally made as a pistol. Nothing can be made into a pistol.
Originally Posted By Norinco982lover:
Inexile...
I realize that specifically addresses big-bore's post and is very helpful––-but do you think that taking the buttstock off and not RETAINING CONTROL of it would allow me to carry it as a pistol or has that not been addressed besides big-bore's post?
Inexile...
I realize that specifically addresses big-bore's post and is very helpful––-but do you think that taking the buttstock off and not RETAINING CONTROL of it would allow me to carry it as a pistol or has that not been addressed besides big-bore's post?
No, in that respect Big-Bore is dead on, it will remain a SBR, just without a stock.
ATF allows the conversion of a pistol to rifle and back to pistol provided the firearm starts as a pistol.
Once the firearm is a SBR you made the firearm on a form1, (application to make a firearm) it is no longer a pistol, even if it was made from one, therefore it cannot go "back" to a pistol.
A pistol can only be originally made as a pistol. Nothing can be made into a pistol.
You're making shit up. And no I'm not posting the letter. Get your own letter.
OP, don't listen to these guys. Write a letter and then you'll have one that will explain what it means to be under the purview of the NFA.
A SBR without a stock is not under the purview of the NFA because it is not in SBR configutration, but for CCW it is NOT a pistol and cannot be treated as such.
Tsk tsk. I thought you had me on your ingore list, Pete. You shouldn't fib either.
12/27/2011 5:55:54 PM
Big-Bore is right. Just because you remove the stock from a SBR does not make it a pistol. Once a pistol is made into a rifle it can NEVER be made back into a pistol (by definition) again.
jonblack
jonblack
12/27/2011 6:05:09 PM
Originally Posted By jonblack:
Big-Bore is right. Just because you remove the stock from a SBR does not make it a pistol. Once a pistol is made into a rifle it can NEVER be made back into a pistol (by definition) again.
jonblack
Big-Bore is right. Just because you remove the stock from a SBR does not make it a pistol. Once a pistol is made into a rifle it can NEVER be made back into a pistol (by definition) again.
jonblack
Actually, ATF ruled earlier this year that you can go pistol>rifle>pistol, so long as the rifle config is legal (i.e. 16"+ bbl before stock is installed).
Or did they reverse themselves again?
12/27/2011 6:05:25 PM
Originally Posted By jonblack:
Big-Bore is right. Just because you remove the stock from a SBR does not make it a pistol. Once a pistol is made into a rifle it can NEVER be made back into a pistol (by definition) again.
jonblack
Big-Bore is right. Just because you remove the stock from a SBR does not make it a pistol. Once a pistol is made into a rifle it can NEVER be made back into a pistol (by definition) again.
jonblack
That was opinion was revisited, ATF 2011-4 states that a pistol can be "converted" into a long gun and then reassembled back into a pistol. As long as was originally manufactured as a pistol.
A SRB however does not start life as a pistol. A SRB is made/manufactured (via form 1) as a a NFA firearm. It is not or never was a pistol even if it was made from one. It began it's life as a NFA firearm. It can be to made into a tile 1 firearm, but it can never be a pistol.
12/27/2011 6:14:31 PM
Originally Posted By jonblack:
Big-Bore is right. Just because you remove the stock from a SBR does not make it a pistol. Once a pistol is made into a rifle it can NEVER be made back into a pistol (by definition) again.
jonblack
Big-Bore is right. Just because you remove the stock from a SBR does not make it a pistol. Once a pistol is made into a rifle it can NEVER be made back into a pistol (by definition) again.
jonblack
Then my friend in this video is breaking the law?
Youtube video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbIpWWG0JEg
BATFE letter
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B4xDZlk5vthcMjhmZmZkYWYtMjRhOC00MjQ0LWFiYmYtYjJjMjJiYTZkNzU0
12/31/2011 10:16:52 AM
Originally Posted By jonblack:
Big-Bore is right. Just because you remove the stock from a SBR does not make it a pistol. Once a pistol is made into a rifle it can NEVER be made back into a pistol (by definition) again.
jonblack
Big-Bore is right. Just because you remove the stock from a SBR does not make it a pistol. Once a pistol is made into a rifle it can NEVER be made back into a pistol (by definition) again.
jonblack
My apologies for the misinformation. I am not a lawyer so I should not be playing one on the internet! Thank you all for the clarification and supporting information.
jonblack
