Pistol vs AOW

I recently did a pistol with a 7.5" bbl and a Troy flash hider. My OAL is right about 24"

From my interpertations, a completed weapon without a buttstock and not designed to be fired from the shoulder, but over 26" would then become an AOW?

The next upper is going to be a hunting rig and I need to ensure I am shooting a pistol, not an AOW.

No, you've still got a pistol, just a long one. If you were to put a 2nd vertical pistol grip on it now, it would be an AOW, & you'd need to pay the tax before installing the 2nd grip. There appears to be a loophole for pistols over 26", where the 2nd pistol grip can be added, a la the old Auto-Ordnance Tommy gun pistol, w/o registering it as an AOW. The new Kahr Tommy pistol is under 26", so no pistol grip w/o paperwork & $.

I have an AR pistol w/ a 16" bbl and a full rifle stock length buffer tube.

Gig 'em,

backbencher

Anyone kind enough, or know enough to show me how to prove this? I just want to cover all my bases before i make an investment.

I have read some conflicting views, and would just like to be able to have something in writing that accompanies the weapon in its case, so if a Conservation officer ever questions i am prepared.

Those letters have been posted here dozens of times. Check the tacked threads at the top of the page. In short they say, less than 26 inches you cannot add a VG unless you make it into an AOW first, $200.
If 26 inches or over, not counting any removable muzzle attachment, then you can add a VG and it not become an AOW, just an AR-15 firearm, no special paperwork or tax paid.

Where exactly did I mention a VFG?

Oh, thats right, I didn't.

So i don't quite understand how the VFG applies to my question?

But, thanks for loggin in today..

There is no Federal barrel or overall length restrictions/limitations for a pistol.
There could however be state restrictions. Michigan, for example, defines a pistol as under 30 inches.

Awesome. Thanks. I searched for a bit on the ATF site looking for a clarification, but didn't come up with anything.

I just want to be prepared to prevent an unwanted court date.

No tength restriction as far as i know here in MN.

The clarification you seek is found in the Code of Federal Regulations Title 27 Chapter II Subchapter B Part 478 Subpart B Section 478.11


Pistol.
A weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).


If it fits this definition it is a pistol under federal law. (notice the lack of any barrel or overall length restrictions/limitations)

My lord, someone with a HELPFUL response!

That sir is what I was looking for. Glad someone out there has better google-fu than I do.

Thanks a ton.

Well, thanks for the snarky reply. I read in the VG because that is the easy way you accidently turn a pistol into an AOW. A pistol has no limit on barrel length or and even with an AOL of over 26 inches it is still a pistol, unless you add a VG then it becomes a AR15 firearm, nether rifle nor pistol. And under 26 inches it is just a pistol. Since YOU were the one who mentioned making an AOW I assumed, quite wrongly I suppose, that you were going to add a VG, otherwise what is this paranoia about it becoming an AOW?

If the OAL is over 26" but doesn't have a buttstock, it is classified as a "firearm" and you can add a vertical grip to it.

Or it can be a pistol...

No this is wrong. It is a pistol UNTIL you add a VFG then, and only then, you change the classification from a pistol to a firearm.

+1+1+1+1

iNeXile556 is 100% correct, the reason the whole 26in. mark comes into play is because, as of now it is the opinion(not the official federel law), of the ATF that under 26in. is concealable and over is not. However it states

perfectly clear in the letter from the Chief of the ATF Firearms Division that if there is a second VFG on the AR-pistol, it cannot be concealed on the person. So basically the ATF has said that its cool with them but there is not an

official federal definition of a certain OAL that makes it concealable or not. Regardless, Franklin Armory and the ATF have both stated that using the ATF letter from Franklin Armory is completely ok as long as it is not changed in

any way or taken out of context.

You are not going to last very long around here with an attitude like that.

Looks like the question has already been answered, so no point in repeating.

I can't help that some posters take ZERO time to read the context of the thread in the beginning. Reading comprehension, its not a tough concept to wrap your hands around. Its called thread drift, I was simply directing it back to the point.

Inexile seemed to have no problem understanding and helping, and that I appreciate very much.

Anyways, to BB's question about the "paranoia" with this subject. I will be using this pistol in a slug zone for hunting. Any "Legal Pistol" is allowed to be used in a slug zone. If I did anything to change from a pistol, I would be subject to a game violation. In this case from what I have interpreted from MN law, would make me a poacher, and my weapon, truck, and equipment subject to forfeiture.

So, I realize that the 26" law is directed to adding a VFG, but I wondered if it was also applicable.

26" is typically what the ATF uses to determine if a firearm is concealable. The only time this matters is when dealing with what could be considered an AOW.

Mind you, this is ATF rules/directives/randomly made up decisions. It sounds like you will want to contact your state to determine the legal status of such weapon, as you will also have to comply with their definitions.

So is it safe to take away from this thread:
1. Over 26" disqualifies as a "pistol" and becomes classified as AOW?
2. Having a VFG on an ar pistol over 26" over all length is permissable without the SBR stamp?

Clear as mud, right?

Lol, got it, thank you

Also found another thread with a letter back from the BATF that states an AR over 26"OAL with a VFG and no stock becomes classified simply as an AR15 firearm

Exactly. If it's not a pistol/handgun, it's not a shotgun, it's not a rifle, and is over 26" OAL, then it's simply a "firearm".

This is exactly true. Over 26" WITH a VFG it is a firearm, without a VFG it is a pistol.
You need to think about it in a different way:

You cannot install a VFG on a pistol without filing a form 1 and paying tax to make an AOW, this is a 100% true statement.

However if the pistol is greater then 26"OAL then you can convert it into a simple title1 firearm by adding a VFG, this is a 100% true statement also.

WHAAAAATTTT??? TTTHHHEEEE????

The difference is you are not installing a VFG on a pistol, you are converting a pistol to either an AOW or a title1 firearm depending on OAL, but ether way the resulting firearm is no longer a pistol.

There are a great many people that think this is a new decision by the ATF, but it is not. It has been the same for at least the last 38 years. The Thompson A5 "pistol" was classified a firearm (not a pistol regardless of the name the makes gave it) under this same interpretation back in 1973.

Very entertaining.
Also very annoying that the ATF says at the top that everything is kosher, then at the bottom says it 'could constitute possession of a short-barreled rifle'.

Here is a video my firend made.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbIpWWG0JEg

Interesting video, although he should have worked a bit on framing - a lot of the action was off-screen. I know it's hard to shoot a video by yourself, however.

He should have also mentioned that if you only have a pistol upper, with an M4-style buffer tube on the lower, you shouldn't have an attachable stock anywhere near it. That means not in your house or wherever you store your guns. That may constitute an intent to build an SBR.

Actually in that scenario you would be in possesion of a illegal SBR.

The Wikipedia article on the National Firearms Act has an extensive discussion of AOW and the various sets of reasoning behind what constitutes one. My take is that if it is not explicitly (in statute or promulgated regulations) a machinegun, a rifle, a SBR, a pistol, or a shotgun (or one of the variations of an shotgun), then it is probably an AOW. The length of the barrel isn't as much of an issue with a "pistol-like firearm" as the fact that adding a forward grip, which is explicitly listed as a feature that makes a handgun an Any Other Weapon.

I'd also point out that a rail system on a pistol lower might be problematic if you have a rail-compatible fore grip on hand, since you could assemble an AOW with that, much as having a short barreled upper with no "pistol" or SBR lower is problematic.

If that is true, then there are probably a million+ people out there with illegal AOWs - lots of pistols have rails for lights, and lots of people who own those pistols have rifles with rail-compatible fore grips on them or in the parts box.

I'll get started on the citizen's arrests

I didn't say illegal, only problematic. The definition of AOW is so slippery that sometimes the only part that is hard and fast is the forward grip part. Ad if you don't know the rules, you can't make sure you aren't breaking them...

Double check caliber restrictions for pistol use in a shotgun zone. I don't know anything about MN law but here in MI you can only use straight wall pistol cartridges in the shotgun zone.

––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––-
Sorry guys but I just can't find the humor in the ATF's recent "rulings" ( Not to mention that some of them are criminals wearing badges.)

I don't believe for a MINUTE that they won't recant the opinions in some of the letters when it suits them.

Despite their letterThere's no such thing as a legal Handgun with a vfg under the current NFA statutes - WHICH HAVEN'T CHANGED..

Remember - the ATF doesn't make laws - they just bend them.

What you are failing to grasp is that this ruling is not new. It is the same ruling that allowed the Thompson A5 "pistol" (a stockless firearm over 26"OAL with a VFG) back in 1973 and manufactured and sold until 1994. I think if they were going to recant it they would have done so 35 years ago.

Actually, the ATF does make laws.

To be 100% accurate, BATFE makes administrative rules that implement portions of laws, primarily the NFA and GCA. "Laws" are ONLY made by Congress and the President, not a bureaucracy under Treasury/Justice. But MANY "administrative rules" that implement laws are made by such bureaucracies. And those rules are often much harder to contest than the laws they implement because the laws usually specify which bureaucracy is supposed to make the rules. It's a pain in the hiney, but it's better than having congresscritters specify the details of technical issues they have even less idea about than the rest of the real world.

On the other hand, these rules serve as foundations for case law which is made by courts in interpreting laws and how they are enforced and administered.

Precise use of words is crucial when it comes to things that can get one thrown in the slammer. This is one of those instances. ATF rules are so mushy and variable, and their enforcement is so inconsistent that it is vital for those of us interested in the area those rules cover to know the law, the rules, and how both have been applied and enforced.

Copyright © 1996 - 2013 :: AR15.Com LLC :: All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.