Questions about issues with having multiple uppers

Well ok,

Not sure if this is the right place....but...

My gunsmith is building me an ar pistol right now...7"

Now the question is this...

I have ar rifles a few of course...

But I also have a pistol...maybe two...

If I have a couple of other uppers for my pistol is there any "issues" with having them.

I may want to have some longer uppers to play withon my pistol...

My primary ar is a 20" so I'm not looking to circumvent the law...just don't want the Feds giving me any issue that I haven't ironed out yet.

Btw:
I will have at the end of next week 3 a r15 and one pistol...in the ar series...

I'd just like to throw a 12 or a 14 on my pistol for plinking at my range from time to time...

Thanks
B

You will get conflicting answers on this. The reason seems to be that no one is quite sure if the courts, the BATFE, etc. will see the possession of a shorty upper and a rifle lower as "constructive possession" of an unregistered short barreled rifle. I don't know the answer myself. Provided you don't attract negative government attention it will likely never be an issue. That said, I make sure I have a pistol lower for every sub-16" upper I have. Once I get the paperwork done for an SBR, any additional shorty uppers I have will reside on pistol lowers. That is what makes me comfortable. YMMV.

Yep I understand...Having each less then 16" barrel having a pistol lower...

I also have extra uppers here for my rifles as well...

I just didn't want to have all the lowers for the pistols...

anyhow I understand it's a grey area...But really with multiple pistol lowers and multiple rifle lowers and uppers for both...I can't see too much of an issue...

Come on it's not like have only 1 AR-15 rifle and then have a short upper...

I have pistol and an extra upper for it...Just like I have some extra uppers in different configurations for my rifle

I was hoping that maybe someone is in my case with lots of "parts"

If wanted a 14" SBR I'd just file the paperwork...Not that big of a deal...I have many different guns...Just like building a great trigger group for my pistol then being able to use it on a 7.5 and a 10 for example...

b

With the latest AFT (ATF 2011-4) ruling allowing pistol to rifle back to pistol conversions the line is even grayer. All my AR's were built by me and only one was not a pistol at birth. All my future builds (2 in progress now) will start life as pistols.

So, as long as I keep the pistol buffer tubes along with the "converted" rifle, any short barreled upper I have could legally be paired to any lower (first removing the stock) to return it back to it's original pistol configuration eliminating any possession problems.

My understanding, from much research, is this: As long as there is a possible legal configuration for each upper and lower you own, you should be good.

In other words, own a three rifle uppers and three pistol uppers, but just one rifle lower and one pistol lower... Should be okay, because each upper could be affixed to a lower in a legal configuration.

Own two rifle uppers and a pistol upper, and a rifle lower? Legal trouble. There is no possible legal configuration for that pistol upper.


The problem is that this is consistent with recent BATFE letters, but not some of the decade-old letters... Soooooo...

TR85.

No one knows what you have in your safe. IF the ATFE raids your house them finding a extra pistol upper is probably the very least of your worries. If your not a gun runner there's not a lot to worry about. It is a good idea to build all lowers as a pistol first, document it and takes photos of it.

First of all, you can have as many rifle uppers for a rifle lower as you want. Nobody will argue that. You can have as many SBR uppers for an SBR lower as you want. Only a few that have no idea about NFA laws would argue that. So, why is it all of a sudden a "gray" area for having multiple pistol uppers? BS. There is nothing gray about it. So long as you have a pistol lower you can have all the pistol uppers you want. What you cannot have is ONLY a rifle lower, and a pistol/SBR upper. THEN you have illegal SBR, no ifs, ands, or buts. Multiple pistol uppers is no different than multiple SBR uppers or multiple rifle uppers. The upper is NOT the firearm, the lower is, ergo, if you have an appropriate lower for the upper you are good to go.

I know this is off topic and i apologize but i found slight confusion, at least to me anyways, about the multiple SBR uppers. Correct me if im wrong but when you fill out your Form 1, dont you have to put barrel length/OAL on the

form, so if you have a 10.5in upper and a 12.5in upper, would that have to be documented or does it really not matter since the lower that both uppers could reside on is the only registered part since its the "firearm"? The way i

looked at it was you can only make one SBR out of one registered lower so it wouldnt matter how many uppers you have. am i correct? thanks again

When I did my last two SBRs, they had me list ALL calibers, barrel lengths, and OAL that I would be using with the SBR. My examiner called me to correct my application because I had listed "multiple" in the calibers. She wanted to know what specific calibers I was using so she wrote them in and had my application to me approved within a week after the call. Total time was 89 days. I already had in the barrel lengths and OALs the different barrel lengths and OALs I was going to have but screwed up saying "multiple" in the calibers section. When I did my next SBR I listed them the way she had told me previously and the form 1 was approved in 91 days. Thing have changed a little since two years ago but not much. Now, from what I have heard here but have not verified with my examiner, they only want one caliber, barrel length, and OAL on the form but you still can have multiple uppers. You just need to send them a letter letting them know what you will be using with that SBR. The only legal catch is to not get mixed up and put a short upper on a non-SBRed lower, which is logical. But having multiple uppers for your SBRed lower is perfectly AOK.

Ok that clears it up a little more. Working on my first SBR so definately want all the facts. The ability to have one SBR lower with not only multiple uppers but multiple calibers would be wonderful. Thanks again for clearing it up for me

What BB said as he nailed it, no gray area just tin foil hats.

Not to argue the point but I've asked this question on several boards including the NFA board in the Armory section. I've never gotten a definite answer as to whether there is a newer opinion to the letter I have here. This is an old letter but it is still valid if no newer opinions have been released. All the other answers given in this letter are still accurate and correct to this day, I don't see why this particular one would change. Given the number of time this comes up I think it would be wise for someone to draft a new letter to the ATF and get a updated answer.

That said here is the only letter known to exist on the matter. It asks about having extra short barrels for a registered AR but the answer given would be the same for a SBR or a pistol as it deals with title 1 firearms and short uppers not the RR, take it as you wish.

                   DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
             BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO AND FIREARMS
                      WASHINGTON, DC 20226

                           MAR 29 2000

                                                       903050:GKD
                                                       3311

Dear Mr. :

This refers to your letter of January 22, 1999, requesting
information on the legality of possessing a registered full auto
AR15 and also possessing one or more semiautomatic pre-1994
assembled AR15 rifles.  You appended a number of specific questions
relating to this subject which will be answered in the order
received.

1.   Is it legal to own both?

There are no provisions under the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA) or
the National Firearms Act (NFA) that prevent an individual from
possessing an AR15 registered machinegun and one or more
semiautomatic AR15 rifles at the same time.

2.   If legal to own both, which spare parts for the registered gun
can you also own?

Any weapon which shoots automatically more than one shot, without
manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger meets the
definition of a machinegun in section 5845(b) of the NFA.  An AR15
rifle which is assembled with certain M16 machinegun fire control
components, and which is capable of shooting automatically is a
machinegun as defined.

The definition of a machinegun in section 5845(b) also includes any
combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if
such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person. 
Thus, an AR15 rifle possessed with separate M16 machinegun
components can meet the definition of a machinegun, if the rifle
shoots automatically when the components are installed.

The fact that a person lawfully possesses a registered NFA firearm
does not grant authorization to possess additional non-registered
firearms.  A person who possesses a registered M16 machinegun and
a semiautomatic AR15 and a separate quantity of M16 machinegun
components could be in possession of two machineguns.

We advise any person who possesses an AR15 rifle not to possess M16
fire control components (trigger, hammer, disconnector, selector,
and bolt carrier).  If a person possessed only the M16 machinegun
and spare M16 fire control components for that machinegun, the
person would possess only one machinegun.

3. Is it legal to use the upper receiver off of the semi-auto AR's
on the registered AR if they are different lengths and calibers
than listed on the Form 4's?

Before changing the caliber of a registered machinegun you should
notify the NFA Branch in writing of the proposed change.

4. Can you have several short barrel uppers (less than 16 inches)
for the registered AR and still own semi-auto AR's?

The definition of a firearm in section 5845 of the NFA includes a
rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length. 
An individual possessing more than one short (less than 16 inches)
barreled upper receiver for a registered AR15 machinegun along with
one or more semiautomatic AR15 rifles would have under their
possession of control an unregistered short barreled rifle, a
violation of the NFA.

5. If you change the barrel length or caliber do I need to notify
your office if the change is not a permanent one?

This question was answered under Question 3.

We trust that the foregoing has been responsive to your inquiry. 
If we can be of any further assistance, please contact us.


                        Sincerely yours,


                            [signed]
                       Edward M. Owen, Jr.
                Chief, Firearms Technology Branch

That letter is over 11 years old. A lot has changed since then. What I wrote was in response to my Form 1 SBRs, most recently done two years ago. While there is nothing on hand that I can prove it with, I will put up a redacted copy of my approved Form one with all the crap written in there. Would that settle it? This is my first AR SBR done in 2008. The second AR SBR was done in late 2009 and done the same way, only all the calibers listed in Caliber.
If this does not prove that the NFA allows multiple uppers for one SBR lower I don't know what will prove it.

It does not matter what your form 1 states, that is one particular firearm. It is perfectly legal to own multiple short barreled uppers for a SBR. The question is whether those same uppers are legal to have with your SRB along WITH of other title one AR15s. That is not part of a form 1 and it does not deal with it at all.

Regardless of the age of the letter, it is the last letter to address the issue, why would it be invalid? Every one I've talked to about this says the same thin "Oh thats and old letter and things have changed" but not one person has offered anything that supersedes it. So logic dictates that it is still a valid decision.

Personally I keep all my uppers on lowers so I don't even have a dog in this race, but I guess I'll be the have to be the one to write the letter and ask since nobody else is willing to.


I'm not arguing with you. Just a discussion that needs resolution. A letter is going to be the only way. I for one hope that my letter is in fact outdated and incorrect.


ETA: The current form 1 will not be approved if filled out as you have yours. At present you must list one caliber, barrel length and OAL only.

(so does that mean that the multiple uppers are no longer allowed with a SRB? )

Just last year I sent a letter to the NFA division, adding a new caliber, two new barrel lengths, and two new OALs to the form one above and to another form one. I just don't know how much more clear it can be. They are not stupid people and they know if a person has an SBR AR then they likely have rifle ARs also. I don't need a letter that spells out every little detail; a little common since goes a long way. Nobody in the NFA is totally unaware of the US gun owner propensities, and they know good and well anyone who owns an SBR, especially an AR SBR, is going to have other ARs around. That is why they make it abundantly clear that if you own a pistol upper you had better not just own rifle lowers. When the examiner called me about the calibers on the form one above, I asked her if I wanted to add more calibers or barrel lengths what should I do. She said, simply send us a letter stating what calibers, barrel lengths, and OALs need to be added and well will append your Form 1. I did just that for the form one above and another form one got back a letter just a few months ago from the NFA stating that those form ones had been appended.
If it makes one sleep better at night to get every little detail spelled out from the ATFE, then write that letter and wait the few months for a reply. Just remember, if you see any letter posted on the internet, that letter only offers real legal relief to the original holder of the letter. There is no way in hell that one can download a copy of a letter off the internet and be absolutely certain that it is legit and not a forgery. People can do remarkable things with photoshop so if you do not actually hold the letter from the ATFE in your hands, it offers little comfort, especially for the paranoid. And remember, there are lots of old letters from the ATFE saying you cannot switch from pistol to rifle back to pistol, but now you can, and that is posted on the ATFE's web site. So yes, things do change. And no matter how many letters are written, no matter how many responses are received back, there will always be someone who will 'what if' things to death and try to read a boogie man in between the lines because something is not specifically spelled out in minute and excruciating detail. Just the same as here are those who think they are so clever as to find the loop hole that nobody else has ever though of, like putting a VG on a pistol but putting it in the horizontal position and therefore not running afoul of the ATFE VG AOW rulings (under 26 inch OAL, oh wait, there is ANOTHER change that just took place recently). This is the same behavior that leads to a seemingly simple law taking hundreds of pages to write.

I stated as much in my first response, that now they want only one caliber and barrel length. And as I just stated above in this post, I just got back a letter from the NFA stating that new barrel lengths, OALs, and caliber had been added to my two AR form ones. So no, it does not mean that multiple uppers are no longer allowed. They are allowed the same as they have always been.

I take it you didn't get the winking smiley meaning at all.

And this isn't a random downloaded letter, it is MY letter.

There is a court f appeals case in which a man is convicted of consecutive possession.

The court, in the opinion, opines that if he had also owned a pistol lower then there would have been no constructive possession

Got it's name, case number or date?

Not tonight for sure. I posted it on texasguntalk last year.

Basically, if you have the upper, assembled and ready to put on the lower, you are in constructive possession.

I did some case research tonight and this case discussed and distinguishes Thomsen Center from the typical AR owner who has an assembled short barrelled upper.




UNITED STATES of America, Plaintiff-Appellee, v. Jason Christopher KENT, Defendant-Appellant.
No. 97-8425.
UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE ELEVENTH CIRCUIT
175 F.3d 870; 1999 U.S. App. LEXIS 8413; 12 Fla. L. Weekly Fed. C 777

May 4, 1999, Decided
PRIOR HISTORY: [**1] Appeal from the United States District Court for the Southern District of Georgia. (No. CR496-148). B.


That didn't work as well as I wanted.

Okay, guess it was tonight. See above.

For what it's worth, he was not convicted of constructive possession. He was convicted of possession. There is no law or statute for "constructive possession". He would not have been convicted of that charge if it wasn't for all the other illegal firearms activity. The ATF does not have ESP and can not see into your gun safe.

That is true. You either posses or you don't. There is not a law or statute called constructive possession. However, as pointed out, if you have all the parts and they can easily be assembled into an sbr then you are in possession of an sbr. You can call the theory constructive possession or something else.

The important thing to take from the opinion is that if the guy had a pistol lower, there would have been no possession of an unregistered sbr.

The non firearms related lesson is that if you aren't doing illegal crap, it it unlikely that the man will kick your door down and find your unregistered sbr.

Yep. Can't fix stupid.

Make it easy... Just register all your ARs as SBRs!

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