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Dumb question -- AR's that eject forward?
6/2/2012 5:16:00 PM
I was at the range today and there was a bunch of 5.56 AR's being sighted in and I noticed a couple of them dumped the fired brass forward at like 2 O'clock. My AR's and most of my friends AR's all dump the brass in a pile at like 4 or 5 O'clock. I asked one of the fellows about the fired brass location and he said it had to do with his AR having a slightly different extractor 末 ????????? If I didn't know any better (most of the time) I would think maybe the extractor needed a little more spring pressure. Has anybody here seen a modified or new type extractor that allows the AR to eject slightly forward? I don't know what brand the AR was and didn't think to ask and I can't say that the two AR's, that were doing this, were the same brand or not. I like to collect spent brass at the range if the shooters don't want it but these two piles of brass were out in the shooting area and I had to wait for the range to go "Cold" to collect it.
6/2/2012 5:53:52 PM
Originally Posted By 22_boomer:
I was at the range today and there was a bunch of 5.56 AR's being sighted in and I noticed a couple of them dumped the fired brass forward at like 2 O'clock. My AR's and most of my friends AR's all dump the brass in a pile at like 4 or 5 O'clock. I asked one of the fellows about the fired brass location and he said it had to do with his AR having a slightly different extractor 末 ????????? If I didn't know any better (most of the time) I would think maybe the extractor needed a little more spring pressure. Has anybody here seen a modified or new type extractor that allows the AR to eject slightly forward? I don't know what brand the AR was and didn't think to ask and I can't say that the two AR's, that were doing this, were the same brand or not. I like to collect spent brass at the range if the shooters don't want it but these two piles of brass were out in the shooting area and I had to wait for the range to go "Cold" to collect it.
I was at the range today and there was a bunch of 5.56 AR's being sighted in and I noticed a couple of them dumped the fired brass forward at like 2 O'clock. My AR's and most of my friends AR's all dump the brass in a pile at like 4 or 5 O'clock. I asked one of the fellows about the fired brass location and he said it had to do with his AR having a slightly different extractor 末 ????????? If I didn't know any better (most of the time) I would think maybe the extractor needed a little more spring pressure. Has anybody here seen a modified or new type extractor that allows the AR to eject slightly forward? I don't know what brand the AR was and didn't think to ask and I can't say that the two AR's, that were doing this, were the same brand or not. I like to collect spent brass at the range if the shooters don't want it but these two piles of brass were out in the shooting area and I had to wait for the range to go "Cold" to collect it.
Many believe ejection angle is caused only by the cycle speed of the carrier, over or under gassed. But a weak ejector spring or strong extractor spring can cause the cases to bounce off the shell deflector and go forward.
Some extractors are MIM and have rounded corners, DOD extractors are milled and have sharper corners. If the corners hang on to the case it will bounce off of the deflector and go forward but that will usually settle down as it breaks in.
6/2/2012 6:32:59 PM
Did they have one of those brass deflectors installed? Those will dump the brass neatly at around 2 o'clock.
6/2/2012 8:40:35 PM
Originally Posted By Gloftoe:
Did they have one of those brass deflectors installed? Those will dump the brass neatly at around 2 o'clock.
Did they have one of those brass deflectors installed? Those will dump the brass neatly at around 2 o'clock.
My Stag Arms ejects at about 2:00 to 2:45.
6/2/2012 10:36:05 PM
I saw a chart posted here that says that is overgassing.
6/2/2012 10:42:14 PM
I would be curious to see if everyone agreed that this is a correct chart.
I've never had the overgassing issue, but my 300 with a heavy buffer and stiff spring and fullauto carrier was ejecting like it was undergassed almost directly behind me and I replaced all of that stuff with regular carbine stuff and it ejects at 3:30 now and slings the hell out of the brass. In fact it dents the brass on the very end.
I've never had the overgassing issue, but my 300 with a heavy buffer and stiff spring and fullauto carrier was ejecting like it was undergassed almost directly behind me and I replaced all of that stuff with regular carbine stuff and it ejects at 3:30 now and slings the hell out of the brass. In fact it dents the brass on the very end.
6/3/2012 12:23:19 AM
Originally Posted By krpind:
I would be curious to see if everyone agreed that this is a correct chart.
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b201/krpind/ejectionchart.jpg
I've never had the overgassing issue, but my 300 with a heavy buffer and stiff spring and fullauto carrier was ejecting like it was undergassed almost directly behind me and I replaced all of that stuff with regular carbine stuff and it ejects at 3:30 now and slings the hell out of the brass. In fact it dents the brass on the very end.
I would be curious to see if everyone agreed that this is a correct chart.
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b201/krpind/ejectionchart.jpg
I've never had the overgassing issue, but my 300 with a heavy buffer and stiff spring and fullauto carrier was ejecting like it was undergassed almost directly behind me and I replaced all of that stuff with regular carbine stuff and it ejects at 3:30 now and slings the hell out of the brass. In fact it dents the brass on the very end.
No. As I said before it isn't always the gas that makes the brass go 1 direction or the other.
If you shoot weak ammo it will go further back if it's M193 full power loads it will go further forward.
weak or sticky ejectors or extractors also play a part in it.
IMO 2:30-4:30 is fine if the full power ammo is dropping at 2;30 and the weak ammo is dropping at 4:30. If full power ammo drops at 4:30 then weak ammo will not lock back.
6/3/2012 12:42:23 AM
Originally Posted By Tim_W:
No. As I said before it isn't always the gas that makes the brass go 1 direction or the other.
If you shoot weak ammo it will go further back if it's M193 full power loads it will go further forward.
weak or sticky ejectors or extractors also play a part in it.
IMO 2:30-4:30 is fine if the full power ammo is dropping at 2;30 and the weak ammo is dropping at 4:30. If full power ammo drops at 4:30 then weak ammo will not lock back.
Originally Posted By krpind:
I would be curious to see if everyone agreed that this is a correct chart.
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b201/krpind/ejectionchart.jpg
I've never had the overgassing issue, but my 300 with a heavy buffer and stiff spring and fullauto carrier was ejecting like it was undergassed almost directly behind me and I replaced all of that stuff with regular carbine stuff and it ejects at 3:30 now and slings the hell out of the brass. In fact it dents the brass on the very end.
I would be curious to see if everyone agreed that this is a correct chart.
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b201/krpind/ejectionchart.jpg
I've never had the overgassing issue, but my 300 with a heavy buffer and stiff spring and fullauto carrier was ejecting like it was undergassed almost directly behind me and I replaced all of that stuff with regular carbine stuff and it ejects at 3:30 now and slings the hell out of the brass. In fact it dents the brass on the very end.
No. As I said before it isn't always the gas that makes the brass go 1 direction or the other.
If you shoot weak ammo it will go further back if it's M193 full power loads it will go further forward.
weak or sticky ejectors or extractors also play a part in it.
IMO 2:30-4:30 is fine if the full power ammo is dropping at 2;30 and the weak ammo is dropping at 4:30. If full power ammo drops at 4:30 then weak ammo will not lock back.
Isn't it a little more complicated than that?
Over or under gassing is relative to how firearm is performing. If a undergassed rifle that is short stroking with a full auto BCG and heavy buffer and stiffer spring be considered undergassed if you replaced the BCG with a semi version and standard spring and buffer and functioned perfectly?
Or am I totally wrong on that assumption?
6/3/2012 8:57:30 AM
Originally Posted By Tim_W:
No. As I said before it isn't always the gas that makes the brass go 1 direction or the other.
If you shoot weak ammo it will go further back if it's M193 full power loads it will go further forward.
weak or sticky ejectors or extractors also play a part in it.
IMO 2:30-4:30 is fine if the full power ammo is dropping at 2;30 and the weak ammo is dropping at 4:30. If full power ammo drops at 4:30 then weak ammo will not lock back.
Originally Posted By krpind:
I would be curious to see if everyone agreed that this is a correct chart.
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b201/krpind/ejectionchart.jpg
I've never had the overgassing issue, but my 300 with a heavy buffer and stiff spring and fullauto carrier was ejecting like it was undergassed almost directly behind me and I replaced all of that stuff with regular carbine stuff and it ejects at 3:30 now and slings the hell out of the brass. In fact it dents the brass on the very end.
I would be curious to see if everyone agreed that this is a correct chart.
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b201/krpind/ejectionchart.jpg
I've never had the overgassing issue, but my 300 with a heavy buffer and stiff spring and fullauto carrier was ejecting like it was undergassed almost directly behind me and I replaced all of that stuff with regular carbine stuff and it ejects at 3:30 now and slings the hell out of the brass. In fact it dents the brass on the very end.
No. As I said before it isn't always the gas that makes the brass go 1 direction or the other.
If you shoot weak ammo it will go further back if it's M193 full power loads it will go further forward.
weak or sticky ejectors or extractors also play a part in it.
IMO 2:30-4:30 is fine if the full power ammo is dropping at 2;30 and the weak ammo is dropping at 4:30. If full power ammo drops at 4:30 then weak ammo will not lock back.
The upper receivers on these two carbines were standard A3 carbine types with no extra shell deflector other than the normal ones built into the receivers. All the AR's I own dump the fired brass in an area like 4:30'ish from the receiver. I have both rifles and carbines and this is actually the first time I've seen the brass dumped so far forward from any of the AR's shot there and there have been tones of them tested at the range 末 this is the reason I was kinda surprised. All the other AR's dumped brass in or around the 4:30 location 末 even one fellow that was shooting a carbine in 300 Blackout with factory remington supersonic ammo 末 made it real easy for the guy to find his brass for reloading. When I said that the two AR's that were throwing their brass forward I forgot to mention that it was not a fairly neat pattern but was like fanned out from 1:00 to 2:30. It was all factory loaded PMC brass 末 the same ammo most of the other AR's were shooting 末 must have been an ammo sale at "Dick's" again. It's not like the fellows had any operating problems with their AR's –– they shot just fine and accuracy was very good and they both put maybe 80 to 100 rounds each through their carbines without a glich. I just thought the position of the fired brass was a bit odd.
6/3/2012 10:03:14 PM
That chart isn't entirely accurate. In extreme cases...yes.
But remember that the brass is not just coming out straight, it has a spin to it as well. If the spin is enough that the brass is perpendicular to the brass deflector, when it hits, it'll bounce in a different direction as one with an angle.
This is why that chart is misleading. Ejector and Extractor tensions also play a role. Pretty much, as long as you get brass marks on the deflector itself (not the back of the ejection port) the bolt speed is slow enough. If it's too slow, it'll bypass the brass deflector altogether. Too fast and you'll start hitting the back edge of the ejection port. Again, though, these "rules of thumb" can be affected by the extractor and ejector.
But remember that the brass is not just coming out straight, it has a spin to it as well. If the spin is enough that the brass is perpendicular to the brass deflector, when it hits, it'll bounce in a different direction as one with an angle.
This is why that chart is misleading. Ejector and Extractor tensions also play a role. Pretty much, as long as you get brass marks on the deflector itself (not the back of the ejection port) the bolt speed is slow enough. If it's too slow, it'll bypass the brass deflector altogether. Too fast and you'll start hitting the back edge of the ejection port. Again, though, these "rules of thumb" can be affected by the extractor and ejector.
