AR15.Com Archives
 .308 vs 6.8 SPC?
BlessTheUSA  [Member]
6/26/2011 3:49:37 PM
Hello,

I was about set on building an Armalite AR-10, when it was suggested that I really look at building an AR-15 in 6.8 SPC, to leave further options open.

Originally I was going to go AR-10 over AR-15 because the .308 would provide additional benefits for home defense and possible hunting. I also liked the availablility of Ammo. Although parts interchangeability with the same lowers for 5.56 and 6.8 uppers would be a benefit, I'm sure I would have a dedicated lower for each if I acquired multiple uppers down the road.

Any thoughts? What is the real benefit to an AR-10 over an AR-15 in 6.8 besides the availability of .308 / 7.62x51 ammo P.S. you can use .308 or 7.62 in an AR-10 right? I found this article that says otherwise?? http://www.303british.com/id36.html

Thanks
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coldair  [Team Member]
6/26/2011 3:53:34 PM
I have both, you can carry far more 6.8 ammo then you can 7.62 pound for pound. price is about the same but the
6.8 is really fun to shoot
Gunwritr  [Team Member]
6/26/2011 5:06:18 PM
For home protection? Hunting?

I would not even consider a 7.62mm AR-10........

I would be all over a 6.8 SPC. For a NUMBER of reasons.

1. Platform can be substantially lighter, handier and more maneuverable.
2. Ammo is lighter and takes up less space.
3. More than ample terminal performance for self protection and big game.
4. Excellent accuracy.
5. Lower recoil.

Consider a 6.8 SPC with a SPC II chamber, you may find it perfect for your needs.......
pavlovwolf  [Team Member]
6/26/2011 6:09:19 PM
Gunwritr, our roles are switched here bud, OP I would consider the 6.5G as well. I am a 6.8 shooter and love it, but I would consider the 6.5G before I went with the .308 platform for hd. I had a DPMS .308 in 16", and it was very heavy, muzzle climb is an issue as well for follow up shots.
mrrick  [Member]
6/26/2011 6:26:18 PM
I have no experience with 6.8 but have looked into build/buying.
308 for HD only for outside excursions unless supressed. 6.8 would have more interchageability but i wouldnt consider that for HD.
a 308 is heavy but if you arent carrying it all day so what. I think either would be good, if it were me i would end up with both calibers and will.
BlessTheUSA  [Member]
6/26/2011 6:32:31 PM
Originally Posted By Gunwritr:
For home protection? Hunting?

I would not even consider a 7.62mm AR-10........

I would be all over a 6.8 SPC. For a NUMBER of reasons.

1. Platform can be substantially lighter, handier and more maneuverable.
2. Ammo is lighter and takes up less space.
3. More than ample terminal performance for self protection and big game.
4. Excellent accuracy.
5. Lower recoil.

Consider a 6.8 SPC with a SPC II chamber, you may find it perfect for your needs.......


Oh. Then out of curiosity, what would be a reason for a .308?
pavlovwolf  [Team Member]
6/26/2011 7:10:12 PM
Longer distance engagements is where the .308 will help you. I've had one, and switched to 6.8. You will be slower on ready ups with the .308. Mine weighed close to 13 pounds with a 16" barrel and an Eotech, and loaded mag. If you're in a self defense situation that extra 3-5 pounds will make a difference. That extra split second it takes you to shoulder and aim the .308 may be enough to get you killed. You will have more mag changes. Anything over 20 rounds in the .308 is extremely heavy. The 6.8 is the same weight as the 5.56 gun. If you have access to both systems try them out and time yourself. Do ready up drills with 2-3 shots per target, two or three targets and see how fast you are with each. Do turn around drills with them. You will not only notice that you are slower to get on target, you will also notice that the time it takes to get off the follow up shots is longer. You can get a good muzzle brake for the .308, but use it in low light in a defensive engagement and you will be be blinded. You won't have time to get your hearing protection either, and the report is way louder, but either one will deafen you. The AR in .308 is not very well balanced as far as I'm concerned. A short barreled M1a or a FAL is balanced much better if you want something in that caliber.
ARmory04  [Member]
6/26/2011 7:12:06 PM
Originally Posted By BlessTheUSA:
Originally Posted By Gunwritr:
For home protection? Hunting?

I would not even consider a 7.62mm AR-10........

I would be all over a 6.8 SPC. For a NUMBER of reasons.

1. Platform can be substantially lighter, handier and more maneuverable.
2. Ammo is lighter and takes up less space.
3. More than ample terminal performance for self protection and big game.
4. Excellent accuracy.
5. Lower recoil.

Consider a 6.8 SPC with a SPC II chamber, you may find it perfect for your needs.......


Oh. Then out of curiosity, what would be a reason for a .308?



1) Factory ammo selection is astounding. You wont have to reload if you dont want to. 6.8.... ehh, not so much. There's match, hunting, plinking, close quarter rounds, tracers, surplus, etc. Walmart, Academy, the local hunting shack, online vendors; everyone has something in 308.

2) A 6.8 is still not a 7.62 by weight, velocity, downrange performance, penetration. I compare 6.8 to 5.56; NOT 308.

3) Throw on tacticool accessories, and your 6.8 weighs very close to a 308. Then why not move to 308 at that point?

4) Reliable, reputable mags can be found all over. Especally the net.

5) If you go with a factory rifle; LMT, Noveske, KAC, POF, chances sway heavily you will get a reliable, accurate rifle with factory support. If you biuld your 6.8, do you know you can depend on it with just a few precious rounds on hand to test it?


That being said; Since I first heard about 6.8 in, ohhh, 2004 I think, I have wanted one, lusted for one, waited for the manufacturer's to pick up the ball, waited for the ammo to be available like 5.56 or 308, waited to see if the rumors of gov't's adopting it were true. 7 years later, I have found to be disappointed by most accounts. It had soooo much potential. I had sooo much hope. Now, I'm just a 308 kinda guy.

But hey, it's your money, your time, do what you want, and dont let people all over the net sway you. Buy what you want. If you find it not to your liking or standards, call it a loss, sell the stuff, and move on.
baldbull  [Member]
6/26/2011 7:16:05 PM
Originally Posted By Gunwritr:
For home protection? Hunting?

I would not even consider a 7.62mm AR-10........

I would be all over a 6.8 SPC. For a NUMBER of reasons.

1. Platform can be substantially lighter, handier and more maneuverable.
2. Ammo is lighter and takes up less space.
3. More than ample terminal performance for self protection and big game.
4. Excellent accuracy.
5. Lower recoil.

Consider a 6.8 SPC with a SPC II chamber, you may find it perfect for your needs.......


What are you going to be hunting? In NH I can only load 5 rounds so that is not an issue.

I have a 6.8 for hunting, but just purchased a DPMS LR-308 for my upcoming Moose hunt. I felt the 6.8 would not be a good fit for that type of hunting.


Tim_W  [Member]
6/26/2011 7:36:40 PM
Originally Posted By ARmory04:
Originally Posted By BlessTheUSA:
Originally Posted By Gunwritr:
For home protection? Hunting?

I would not even consider a 7.62mm AR-10........

I would be all over a 6.8 SPC. For a NUMBER of reasons.

1. Platform can be substantially lighter, handier and more maneuverable.
2. Ammo is lighter and takes up less space.
3. More than ample terminal performance for self protection and big game.
4. Excellent accuracy.
5. Lower recoil.

Consider a 6.8 SPC with a SPC II chamber, you may find it perfect for your needs.......


Oh. Then out of curiosity, what would be a reason for a .308?



1) Factory ammo selection is astounding. You wont have to reload if you dont want to. 6.8.... ehh, not so much. There's match, hunting, plinking, close quarter rounds, tracers, surplus, etc. Walmart, Academy, the local hunting shack, online vendors; everyone has something in 308.

2) A 6.8 is still not a 7.62 by weight, velocity, downrange performance, penetration. I compare 6.8 to 5.56; NOT 308.

3) Throw on tacticool accessories, and your 6.8 weighs very close to a 308. Then why not move to 308 at that point?

4) Reliable, reputable mags can be found all over. Especally the net.

5) If you go with a factory rifle; LMT, Noveske, KAC, POF, chances sway heavily you will get a reliable, accurate rifle with factory support. If you biuld your 6.8, do you know you can depend on it with just a few precious rounds on hand to test it?


That being said; Since I first heard about 6.8 in, ohhh, 2004 I think, I have wanted one, lusted for one, waited for the manufacturer's to pick up the ball, waited for the ammo to be available like 5.56 or 308, waited to see if the rumors of gov't's adopting it were true. 7 years later, I have found to be disappointed by most accounts. It had soooo much potential. I had sooo much hope. Now, I'm just a 308 kinda guy.

But hey, it's your money, your time, do what you want, and dont let people all over the net sway you. Buy what you want. If you find it not to your liking or standards, call it a loss, sell the stuff, and move on.

If you consider 2lbs close then yeah MAYBE you're right.
Anyone that owns a computer or phone can get 6.8 ammo from several companies, maybe wally world in LA. doesn't carry it but who cares. You do not have to reload 6.8.
precious rounds? LOL get out of LA dude. So depending on what 308 platform you use some good 308 mags are avail. some use HK mags, some M14 mags, some FAL mags and some DPMS style mags, some 308 uppers fit some lowers but not others. The 308 is a great round but a lot of people already have AR15 lowers and can just pop on an upper to get the job done.

BlessTheUSA  [Member]
6/26/2011 8:05:45 PM
Originally Posted By baldbull:
What are you going to be hunting? In NH I can only load 5 rounds so that is not an issue.

I have a 6.8 for hunting, but just purchased a DPMS LR-308 for my upcoming Moose hunt. I felt the 6.8 would not be a good fit for that type of hunting.


Likely would be deer, etc. That and wild boars are about the biggest things around here. The AR-10 is also more expensive, especially with a 20-rd mag running around $40 I think.

But It might be fun to shoot at long range :-)

I guess I need to do some more research.
stepup  [Team Member]
6/26/2011 8:38:27 PM
How about a .300 whisper? That is what I am considering. Although you will most likely have to reload for it.
BlessTheUSA  [Member]
6/26/2011 8:50:48 PM
Originally Posted By stepup:
How about a .300 whisper? That is what I am considering. Although you will most likely have to reload for it.


At this point I'm thinking just get a "cheap" [realtively speaking] 5.56 like RRA elite operator and then find out what I really want on a larger caliber for the next rifle. http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=462

At least with a 5.56 mags and ammo'd be cheap and there are plenty of accessories to play with (i guess that would be true for the 6.8 as well).
Gunwritr  [Team Member]
6/26/2011 9:49:11 PM
Originally Posted By BlessTheUSA:
Originally Posted By Gunwritr:
For home protection? Hunting?

I would not even consider a 7.62mm AR-10........

I would be all over a 6.8 SPC. For a NUMBER of reasons.

1. Platform can be substantially lighter, handier and more maneuverable.
2. Ammo is lighter and takes up less space.
3. More than ample terminal performance for self protection and big game.
4. Excellent accuracy.
5. Lower recoil.

Consider a 6.8 SPC with a SPC II chamber, you may find it perfect for your needs.......


Oh. Then out of curiosity, what would be a reason for a .308?


I'm not really a big 7.62x51mm guy anymore.....
I'm old enough to have done the whole 5.56 VS 7.62x39mm VS 7.62x51mm dance in the 80s.....

I've built M14s, FALs, AKs (still have one that feeds from M14 mags), a CETME and played with lots of AR10 type
rifles. I got rid of almost all my semi-auto 7.62x51mms a while ago. For ME I found them just too big and heavy
for what they did. I played around with A LOT of them and built and ultra light FAL carbine and fed it 110 grain
Hornady and it was pretty cool.....but in the end I traded it for a truck. I am much happier with another 6.X cartridge
but this thread is about 6.8s.

For ME, a 6.8 SPC would make much more sense. I usually shoot what most would consider A LOT of 6.8 SPC a year
anyway just for work. It's a good round. More importantly it comes in a smaller platform. In my experience a well built
AR-15 is more reliable than a well built AR-10. It's a great cartridge for deer and pigs. It's very accurate, light recoiling
and easy to control.

What does the 7.62x51/.308 have going for it?

It drives a heavier payload
Capable of very good penetration depending upon bullet type
Capable of excellent accuracy
Widely available
Capable of taking most game in North America. But I will add that I don't think moose are as tough as most think.
I grew up in Maine and have taken moose in Finland. .308 Win kills moose dead. The main thing with moose is you
don't want them to run off wounded and head into a bog where it will be a pain to haul their carcass out of....

Personally, I think most people use way too much gun for most American game. But that's just me.

It comes down to what you are looking for in a rifle. Do you want something light and handy which is easy to
carry, quick to the shoulder, swings/stops quickly? Or do you prefer a chunky chick? If you don't mind the size
and weight then get a .308. There is no right or wrong answer here. Just what is best for you at this particular
point in your learning curve.
Keep in mind, that what is best for you today may not be the best in a couple years
based upon new found knowledge/experience/needs.

Hope this helps.......
pavlovwolf  [Team Member]
6/26/2011 10:23:53 PM
I have made the same journey Gunwitr, albiet with a few less toys. I would still like one of those DSA FAL SBRs you arote about a while back.
Gunwritr  [Team Member]
6/26/2011 11:36:13 PM
Originally Posted By pavlovwolf:
I have made the same journey Gunwitr, albiet with a few less toys. I would still like one of those DSA FAL SBRs you arote about a while back.


The DSA FAL SBRs were probably the most accurate FALs I have shot......

It is a journey, and many fail to recognize that. However, the shooter of today has a pile of options we didn't have back in the 80s.
The 6.X cartridges are a great example. They just offer so damn much.
Bretshooter  [Member]
6/27/2011 12:46:53 AM
Originally Posted By BlessTheUSA:
Originally I was going to go AR-10 over AR-15 because the .308 would provide additional benefits for home defense


And that benefit would be additional over penetration.
RUTGERS95  [Member]
7/7/2011 9:39:14 AM
6.8 for reasons already stated
.308 over the 6.5 for many many reasons.

for hunting most game in North America, 6.8 is really the perfect choice. One thing to consider that has not been mentioned, the 6.8 has not even reached it's zenith of potential and better bc bullets are being introduced monthly it seems.
jasonusvi  [Team Member]
7/7/2011 10:44:57 AM
Originally Posted By Gunwritr:
For home protection? Hunting?

I would not even consider a 7.62mm AR-10........

I would be all over a 6.8 SPC. For a NUMBER of reasons.

1. Platform can be substantially lighter, handier and more maneuverable.
2. Ammo is lighter and takes up less space.
3. More than ample terminal performance for self protection and big game.
4. Excellent accuracy.
5. Lower recoil.

Consider a 6.8 SPC with a SPC II chamber, you may find it perfect for your needs.......


If you can go short / SBR you can argue that pound for pound a 12ish" 6.8spcII may be the best home defense and medium game brush / sub 250 yard set up there is. Load it with 85 grain TSXs for hog/deer hunting or 110 Vmax for HD.

I personally would not choose it for "go to SHTF" role given ammo/mag availability and compatibility. Guessing you have that covered with 556. If you reload and are adventurous you could also throw 7.62x40, 300BLK, and other larger diameter 556 parent case variants into the mix. That would assume parts compatibility (bolt/mags/556 cases) is very important to you. You might be screwed if 6.8spc failed commercially and bolt/brass/mags became difficult to acquire while you will never be short of components 7.62x40 and 300BLK in particular (given surplus 30cal projectiles and mass quantities of 556 brass).


Jimi  [Member]
7/7/2011 12:19:42 PM
I have both6.8and 7.62.The 6.8 is lighter has 80% of the power of 7.62 and 100%accuracy of 308!I have a kotronics 6.8Tim was way ahead of the competition and built A great rifle!!!It is so accurate sub moa! I have the RRA Elite Oper.also very accurate.The 6.8 has the advantage that 99%of the parts are 556 and lighter than the RRA.I would get the 6.8 first.If you reload that is a plus cause ammo can be high dollar.Ilove both rifles .For hd I would not use either. Shotgun rules in hd!
Mogwa  [Member]
7/7/2011 1:49:27 PM
I went with the 308 for these reasons:
1. Combat proven to put the other guy down (Killing since 1952)
2. Penetration
3. Availability of ammo (308 is everywhere)
4. Cost of ammo cheaper ($11.95 for LC XM80)
5. Cost of components to reload ammo... cheaper(Brass and bullets)


Does my 308 weigh more? Sure (12 lbs loaded w/ optics), but I'm no pussy so that isn't a factor.

Buy whatever you want. Stock up on ammo and become proficient with it.

esa17  [Team Member]
7/7/2011 2:36:31 PM
The 6.8 is a very capable round and I love mine. I sold my AR-10 and built a 6.8, don't regret it and will never turn back. I don't reload but I save my brass. By selling my brass I've cut the cost of shooting by 30%.

I'd have to slap a lot of crap on my rifle to make it weigh the same as my 308. A scope and sling don't even register. The weight alone is a good enough reason to build a 6.8.
jsr75  [Member]
7/7/2011 3:44:55 PM
Do you have access to shooting both? Perhaps you could fire both and then decide which would suit you best. I'd go to my light weight 16" 6.8 for home defense and wouldn't hesitate using it for hunting pigs/deer out to several hundred yards. Good luck with your decision.
Manny2_0  [Member]
7/10/2011 9:10:51 PM
they are two diff. animals

If I could have 1 it would be 308.

I have a Pof 308 16in

my second rifle is a 16in mrp, which will be cut to 12in. when I get around to it.

Both have specialty ammo

for cqb you could use 110gr tap on the 308, it is muncho fast and light recoil


I don't think the mrp in 12in can be beat for under 100m
after that 200m on it's 16in 308 time
400m on 20in 308

Yes 6.8 can get there but, at what vel.
In other word to answer the op's question there is no 6.8vs308,
except under that which I have listed

pavlovwolf  [Team Member]
7/10/2011 9:53:39 PM
The 6.8 with a 16" barrel and a Hornady 110gr bullet at 2700fps, the bullet will still be at 1812fps and have 802ft/lbs of energy at 400 yards. There are better bullets but this is a good all around choice.

The .308 with a 16" barrel with a 168 smk will be at 1770fps but will have a good bit more energy with 1167ft/lbs
With a 110gr Hornady TAP you will have 1731fps at 400yds, assuming a mz velocity of 2850fps( 3172fps in 24"), and you'll have 731ft/lbs of energy.

With the 110s in a 16 or shorter the 6.8 wins.
Move up in weight and the .308 wins. I can tell you that the recoil and muzzle climb is much, much greater with the .308. I have had both. I am going to get another .308, but it will be a 20-22" barrel and most likely a bolt gun.
pavlovwolf  [Team Member]
7/10/2011 9:57:12 PM
{308 WIN 110 gr. TAP URBAN® (80896)

Bullet: 110 gr. TAP URBAN®
B.C.: .290 S.D.: .116
Muzzle Velocity: 3172 fps
Barrel: 24"
Total Penetration: 9.25"
Max. Cavity: 5.5"
Depth to Max. Cav.: 3.25"
Entry: 0"
Retained Weight: 0 gr.

}
{6.8MM SPC 110 gr. BTHP TAP® (81465)

Bullet: 110 gr. BTHP
B.C.: .360 S.D.: .205
Muzzle Velocity: 2443 fps
Barrel: 16"
Total Penetration: 15"
Max. Temporary Cavity: 6.50"
Depth to Max. Cavity: 5.25"
Entry: .5"
Retained Weight: 69 gr.
Retained Weight: 69 gr.

}
pavlovwolf  [Team Member]
7/10/2011 10:10:55 PM
I will tell you that the 6.8 is way underloaded. Most 110gr bullets for the 6.8 are factory loaded at a minimum of 2500-2550fps, and the SSA and Wilson loads are in the 2700fps range.
{10-BTHP 6.8 SPC | 110 gr. Hornady BTHP, 2700 FPS - 16
6.8 SPC | 110 gr. Hornady BTHP, 2700 FPS - 16" Barrel, 20/Box
In Stock}
The damage would be quite a but more extensive with the extra 257fps
tirod  [Member]
7/10/2011 11:06:57 PM
Interesting rationalizations come out in Vs. threads that don't really compute.

No .308 is ever the same working weight as a similarly equipped gun in an intermediate caliber. 6.8 or 5.56, that will be 2+ pounds lighter. And it DOES make a huge difference when you carry it around all day. It also affects the amount of ammo you carry considerably. Those are facts, well documented, and precisely the reason we dropped the .308 for 5.56 in the first place. It's a superior combination for combat - lightweight weapon + more ammo = superior lethality overall.

HD/SHTF is an internet fantasy, might as well just include zombies, as it has equal probability. What most describe as SHTF is simple economic collapse or a government change, albeit non democratic. REAL SHTF is when you crawl out of your basement after an EF5, and spend the next 24 hours digging your fellow survivors out. Guns aren't needed at all, just good gloves and a pair of boots you can walk on nails with. You will need those a lot more.

So, cool it with the SHTF BS. Just call it what you really mean it is, extreme public unrest, and looting bad enough to justify shooting people - in your mind.

Lets move to the core of what prompts a Vs. post - not really knowing what the shooter needs to do. When someone is undecided about a caliber, it's really because they don't have specifics nailed down about what they want done. That gets identified when a simple question is asked, What range, what target?

What did the OP indicate was the goal - home protection, self defense, and possibly cost of ammo? Answer the question, what range, what target? and you have 25 to 350m, and live targets up to 250 pounds. That then governs the performance needed to put the target down, and in that regard, 6.8SPC does the job, 40% more power than 5.56, without the heavy weight, recoil, and lack of ammo a .308 will suffer.

I spent 22 years humping a M16 in full battle rattle, and hunted with a .308. That HK91 wore me out, not even carrying 120 rounds of ammo. And just as it has been documented for the last 100 years, the .30 major power calibers are simply harder to shoot accurately AND repeatedly compared to a intermediate caliber. The lighter gun simply promotes confidence in the shooter having the ability to hold on target with less fatigue, more accuracy, and have less negative reaction to recoil.

Simple as that, the intermediate caliber will cost less, tax the shooter less, offer more accuracy over repeated use, and cost less carrying more ammo. Like I said at the start, it's interesting to see the rationalizations some come up with - attempting to make the .308 rifle even equivalent in this is a real stretch. It's simply a poor second choice - which is exactly the same position ALL the worlds professional military users have accepted and now implement.
Manny2_0  [Member]
7/11/2011 12:35:41 AM
Originally Posted By pavlovwolf:
The 6.8 with a 16" barrel and a Hornady 110gr bullet at 2700fps, the bullet will still be at 1812fps and have 802ft/lbs of energy at 400 yards. There are better bullets but this is a good all around choice.

The .308 with a 16" barrel with a 168 smk will be at 1770fps but will have a good bit more energy with 1167ft/lbs
With a 110gr Hornady TAP you will have 1731fps at 400yds, assuming a mz velocity of 2850fps( 3172fps in 24"), and you'll have 731ft/lbs of energy.

With the 110s in a 16 or shorter the 6.8 wins.
Move up in weight and the .308 wins. I can tell you that the recoil and muzzle climb is much, much greater with the .308. I have had both. I am going to get another .308, but it will be a 20-22" barrel and most likely a bolt gun.


rebuttle


1st who makes a rd w/ a 110gr hornady bullet that goes 2700fps, other than a handloader
hornady ammo when chrono, hardly ever meet advertise numbers, hell the muzzle vel. of the gel you posted was 2443

SSA 100gr Nosler tac is 2700fps though, however it has appox 1k of E @ 200yds


2ndly the 110gr 308 is not meant for getting out there, it is a cqb rd, very fast follow ups with light recoil

I don't believe the 308 wins in the 110grs, however it does give the 308 the opportunity to fire something tame, and fast
with out as much liability of over pen.

simply put, what you want your weapon to do will dictate which weapon compliments you best
vmpglenn  [Team Member]
7/11/2011 12:53:30 AM
Originally Posted By tirod:
Interesting rationalizations come out in Vs. threads that don't really compute.

No .308 is ever the same working weight as a similarly equipped gun in an intermediate caliber. 6.8 or 5.56, that will be 2+ pounds lighter. And it DOES make a huge difference when you carry it around all day. It also affects the amount of ammo you carry considerably. Those are facts, well documented, and precisely the reason we dropped the .308 for 5.56 in the first place. It's a superior combination for combat - lightweight weapon + more ammo = superior lethality overall.

HD/SHTF is an internet fantasy, might as well just include zombies, as it has equal probability. What most describe as SHTF is simple economic collapse or a government change, albeit non democratic. REAL SHTF is when you crawl out of your basement after an EF5, and spend the next 24 hours digging your fellow survivors out. Guns aren't needed at all, just good gloves and a pair of boots you can walk on nails with. You will need those a lot more.

So, cool it with the SHTF BS. Just call it what you really mean it is, extreme public unrest, and looting bad enough to justify shooting people - in your mind.

Lets move to the core of what prompts a Vs. post - not really knowing what the shooter needs to do. When someone is undecided about a caliber, it's really because they don't have specifics nailed down about what they want done. That gets identified when a simple question is asked, What range, what target?

What did the OP indicate was the goal - home protection, self defense, and possibly cost of ammo? Answer the question, what range, what target? and you have 25 to 350m, and live targets up to 250 pounds. That then governs the performance needed to put the target down, and in that regard, 6.8SPC does the job, 40% more power than 5.56, without the heavy weight, recoil, and lack of ammo a .308 will suffer.

I spent 22 years humping a M16 in full battle rattle, and hunted with a .308. That HK91 wore me out, not even carrying 120 rounds of ammo. And just as it has been documented for the last 100 years, the .30 major power calibers are simply harder to shoot accurately AND repeatedly compared to a intermediate caliber. The lighter gun simply promotes confidence in the shooter having the ability to hold on target with less fatigue, more accuracy, and have less negative reaction to recoil.

Simple as that, the intermediate caliber will cost less, tax the shooter less, offer more accuracy over repeated use, and cost less carrying more ammo. Like I said at the start, it's interesting to see the rationalizations some come up with - attempting to make the .308 rifle even equivalent in this is a real stretch. It's simply a poor second choice - which is exactly the same position ALL the worlds professional military users have accepted and now implement.


Exactly. Great post.

I've discussed this issue on other boards and I think it comes down to platform vs caliber. Some shooters really want the "power" of a .308 as well as access to cheaper surplus ammo, but don't or won't consider the weight, recoil, handling, and ammo capacity/carry penalties one must pay. These are the caliber folks, for whom "turning cover into concealment since 1954" is much cooler than fast, accurate follow-up shots. Don't think follow-up shots will be needed with a "man-sized" caliber? Think again. And as for ammo cost, it is highly practical to have a 5.56 and 6.x upper set up the same way, so you practice and drill with your 5.56 upper and your skillset translates 100% to shooting with your 6.x upper when it counts.

And this leads nicely into what I think is much more critical than caliber, which is platform. For me, the platform of choice is the AR15. I know its components, operating principles, cleaning regimen, reloading procedures, cheekweld, shot cadence, recoil characteristics, malfunction clearance procedures, mechanical offset, and on and on. I practice with an AR, have thousands and thousands of rounds down the pipe with an AR, and can take an AR (within my limited range of skills) from contact to 600+ yards. I can pick up any of my AR15s and instantly know exactly how to shoot it for maximum effectiveness. I've decided I'm just not willing to throw that hard-won knowledge out the window by jumping from platform to platform - even if it is going from AR15 to AR10-type rifles. The differences are sufficient to require relearning a ton of stuff, and time just does not grow on trees.

The intermediate calibers available on the AR15 platform are very capable; just ask the hundreds - if not thousands - of game animals these calibers have taken down. And ammo cost is a non-issue if you handload as well as have at least one 5.56 upper for throwing high volumes of lead downrange.
pavlovwolf  [Team Member]
7/11/2011 1:10:07 AM
Manny, the round I quoted a couple of posts up is the Wilson Combat round with a Hornady 110gr bullet at 2700fps. Handloaders are getting them a good deal faster than that.{ }
{6.8 SPC | 110 gr. Hornady BTHP, 2700 FPS - 16
6.8 SPC | 110 gr. Hornady BTHP, 2700 FPS - 16" Barrel, 20/Box
In Stock}
Manny2_0  [Member]
7/11/2011 1:22:32 AM
Originally Posted By pavlovwolf:
Manny, the round I quoted a couple of posts up is the Wilson Combat round with a Hornady 110gr bullet at 2700fps. Handloaders are getting them a good deal faster than that.{ http://i789.photobucket.com/albums/yy172/pavlovwolf/a68-110-bthp_t.jpg}
{6.8 SPC | 110 gr. Hornady BTHP, 2700 FPS - 16
6.8 SPC | 110 gr. Hornady BTHP, 2700 FPS - 16" Barrel, 20/Box
In Stock}


Isn't that kick ass, you learn something everyday
I'll have to post that for those that cry that the 6.8 manufacter's are stagnet

I like my Mrp even more now,
I think it will be the sickest thing in all of Texas in a 12inbbl
Derek45  [Team Member]
7/11/2011 1:26:48 AM
6.8
pavlovwolf  [Team Member]
7/11/2011 1:32:09 AM
The SSA tactical in 110gr Barnes is 2650fps. There are more ammo companies starting to make faster loads for the spec II chambers as well. The old stuff will be a thing of the past soon enough as almost all barrel makers use the specII configuration. It has already become the industry standard.
pavlovwolf  [Team Member]
7/11/2011 1:37:11 AM
Hell hand loaders are getting 2800fps with the Hornady 120SST and a 20" barrel. A new powder on the market has added @75-100fps safely to even what were combat loads.The 6.8 is the second fastest selling caliber in the AR platform. Only the 5.56 outsells it now.
jasonusvi  [Team Member]
7/11/2011 8:35:14 AM
Originally Posted By pavlovwolf:
Hell hand loaders are getting 2800fps with the Hornady 120SST and a 20" barrel. A new powder on the market has added @75-100fps safely to even what were combat loads.The 6.8 is the second fastest selling caliber in the AR platform. Only the 5.56 outsells it now.


What powder is that and does it improve 12-14.5" barrel performance also?
pavlovwolf  [Team Member]
7/11/2011 10:45:15 AM
Te powder is A2200, and yes it will work good. It seems to work better with the 18 and 20s though, but will still help you out. It's best fir bullets 95grs and over. The velocity you highlighted is from a 20" and you probably won't see enough from a 12-14.5" to make the 120sst viable. You would be better with a 95gr-110gr pill in the 14.5 and a 85gr to 100gr in the 12". Go over to 68forums and see what the guys are doing.
pavlovwolf  [Team Member]
7/11/2011 10:56:31 AM
Jason the 85ttsx tac load from SSA is 2985fps from a 12" barrel, and gives you a 250-300 yard deer gun.
QuicksilverJPR  [Team Member]
7/11/2011 11:10:41 AM
Originally Posted By pavlovwolf:
Jason the 85ttsx tac load from SSA is 2985fps from a 12" barrel, and gives you a 250-300 yard deer gun.


My 10.5" Noveske uses the 85gr TSX and runs them consistently at the 2750-2780fps rang with zero pressure/wear indications on the brass.
tammons  [Member]
7/11/2011 7:33:05 PM
6.8 SPC good out to about 350-400 yards for hunting.
308 out to 800-1000 with the right barrel and load.

308 in an overkill for HD, but is a nice hunting round strictly talking about cartridges.
AR10 is too heavy for me for a hunting rifle.

6.8 SPC can be built at 6# total with a light scope for reasonable $ and with a 16" barrel is a perfect carry rifle.

A 6.8 is great for eastern deer and hogs, but several Elk and a black bear have been taken with one.

My 90 YO dad used my 6.8 AR15 for a while and liked it so much he ordered a Mini 14 in 6.8.
That is all he hunts with now.

RUTGERS95  [Member]
7/12/2011 3:11:58 PM
Originally Posted By tirod:
Interesting rationalizations come out in Vs. threads that don't really compute.

No .308 is ever the same working weight as a similarly equipped gun in an intermediate caliber. 6.8 or 5.56, that will be 2+ pounds lighter. And it DOES make a huge difference when you carry it around all day. It also affects the amount of ammo you carry considerably. Those are facts, well documented, and precisely the reason we dropped the .308 for 5.56 in the first place. It's a superior combination for combat - lightweight weapon + more ammo = superior lethality overall.

HD/SHTF is an internet fantasy, might as well just include zombies, as it has equal probability. What most describe as SHTF is simple economic collapse or a government change, albeit non democratic. REAL SHTF is when you crawl out of your basement after an EF5, and spend the next 24 hours digging your fellow survivors out. Guns aren't needed at all, just good gloves and a pair of boots you can walk on nails with. You will need those a lot more.

So, cool it with the SHTF BS. Just call it what you really mean it is, extreme public unrest, and looting bad enough to justify shooting people - in your mind.

Lets move to the core of what prompts a Vs. post - not really knowing what the shooter needs to do. When someone is undecided about a caliber, it's really because they don't have specifics nailed down about what they want done. That gets identified when a simple question is asked, What range, what target?

What did the OP indicate was the goal - home protection, self defense, and possibly cost of ammo? Answer the question, what range, what target? and you have 25 to 350m, and live targets up to 250 pounds. That then governs the performance needed to put the target down, and in that regard, 6.8SPC does the job, 40% more power than 5.56, without the heavy weight, recoil, and lack of ammo a .308 will suffer.

I spent 22 years humping a M16 in full battle rattle, and hunted with a .308. That HK91 wore me out, not even carrying 120 rounds of ammo. And just as it has been documented for the last 100 years, the .30 major power calibers are simply harder to shoot accurately AND repeatedly compared to a intermediate caliber. The lighter gun simply promotes confidence in the shooter having the ability to hold on target with less fatigue, more accuracy, and have less negative reaction to recoil.

Simple as that, the intermediate caliber will cost less, tax the shooter less, offer more accuracy over repeated use, and cost less carrying more ammo. Like I said at the start, it's interesting to see the rationalizations some come up with - attempting to make the .308 rifle even equivalent in this is a real stretch. It's simply a poor second choice - which is exactly the same position ALL the worlds professional military users have accepted and now implement.




best post I've ever seen ar15...bravo sir
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