AR15.Com Archives
 6.5 Sporter?
bs295  [Team Member]
12/30/2010 4:06:48 AM EST
I have decided to get a 6.5 Grendel upper and have been searching various companies web sites to check out different models. I came across Model 1 Sales web site and saw that they offer uppers in 6.5 Sporter. I am assuming that it is the same as 6.5 Grendel in dimensions, just using a different name due to copyright of the Grendel name. They do not give the actual dimensions, or show a picture of the round, so it is a little confusing. Am I correct in the cartridges being the same, or am I way off?


Also was wondering if anyone had any experience with Model 1 Sales products. I know they have been around for awhile, as I've seen their ads in Shotgun News, etc, for a long time, but never bought anything from them. Any firsthand knowledge would be appreciated.
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VASCAR2  [Member]
12/30/2010 6:06:02 AM EST
You are correct as Model 1 is not paying the royalty to use the name of 6.5 Grendel as copyrighted by Alexander Arms. There maybe some slight variation in chamber throat dimensions and bolt compared to 6.5 Grendel designs but generally the 6.5 Sporter accepts any 6.5 Grendel ammo . Les Baer also markets the LSB 264 which is basically the same cartridge as the 6.5 Grendel. Model 1's track record has been questionable with reports of delayed delivery and loss of credit card information and subsequent credit card theft. If your looking for a economical alternative to AA you might look at J & T distributing/Double Star. I bought a 6.5 Grendel 16" carbine from J & T a few months ago and am very satisfied. I ordered my rifle and received it in about a week since they were in stock. The price is comparable to Model 1 however J & T uses 6.5 Grendel bolts and gets its barrels from Shaw as does Model 1. If you check the threads here Alenxander Arms, Saturn, AR precision, Lothar Walther, Les Baer and Sabre Defense get good reviews on barrels for the 6.5 G. Midway offers their line of A R Stoner barrels which I believe are manufactured by Shaw for Midway USA and may have a price advantage. I'm sure others may chime in with more precise information.
Muttt  [Member]
12/30/2010 10:38:42 AM EST
I've said this many times before. If you are buying a 6.5 rifle, I suggest you buy a "Grendel" for the standardization. You don't have to buy AA to get a grendel, there are several companies liscenced to sell the Grendel (Saturn, AA, Liberty, etc). All Grendel ammo (Hornady, Lapua, Wolf) was made using the Grendel specifications (which are unique to grendel and part of the liscensing). If it's not an actual Grendel, then the chamber is made to different specifications (listed below). If it is not a Grendel, then it may or may not use a grendel bolt, it may use a 7.62 bolt (it would be important for you to find out for sure) The other chambers that are not Grendel chambers are made several thousands different than the specification used to make the Grendel ammo. Now, it's up to you to decide wether or not several thousands is a big deal or not. But, I prefer to use the ammo made for that particular chamber. If you buy a barrel with a Grendel chamber and bolt, then you won't have any issues using Grendel ammo in your rifle (you may or may not have issues using the other "Grendel Like" chambers ...... which has been a complaint I've heard in multiple forums). The liscensing is meant to keep everything to a standardized dimension in both the barrel and ammo, which to me makes real sense. But the companies that refuse to use the liscense and made thier own version of the Grendel had to use different measurements (that were only similar to the Grendel). Which makes a big difference.

“6.5 Grendel” .300” neck diameter with compound angle throat
“6.5 CSS” .295” neck diameter with compound angle throat
“.264 LBC-AR” .295” neck diameter with 1 degree throat
“6.5 PPCX” .292 neck diameter with 1 degree throat

You decide whether or not a couple thousands (anywhere from 5 to 8 and a different angled throat) difference in measurement between ammo and chamber are a big deal. Like I said, I prefer to shoot ammo with the same dimensions as chamber I am using.

And ....... you can get a great bolt/barrel combo from the companies I've listed for about 320 bucks. Which is much less than the other "Grendel Like" barrels from those other companies.

Mutt
10esmus  [Member]
12/30/2010 10:58:10 AM EST
<Off-topic comment removed - Z>
Muttt  [Member]
12/30/2010 1:35:22 PM EST
Originally Posted By 10esmus:
Originally Posted By Muttt:
I've said this many times before....


As a two-month lurker, your point is taken. Please stop now.


Ummm .... no.

I'm not arguing with anyone. I'm not bashing anyone. I'm providing factual information in response to the OP's question. The info in my reply is factual information. Unless you would rather I post conjecture, half truths and assumptions.

Why should I support manufacturers that don't make thier chambers to the proper specifications that matches the current ammo for that weapon platform? That would just push the 6.5 Grendel round back towards the wildcat category. I think everyone interested in the 6.5 Grendel wants standardization. Standardization makes the caliber grow in popularity, which in turn creates greater popularity among ammo manufacturers ...... which in turn relates to more companies making the ammo and drives the prices down even further into the affordable category.

<Personal attack removed - Z>
bs295  [Team Member]
12/30/2010 8:13:41 PM EST
Thanks for the replies guys. I knew I had heard of a company having issues with credit card number loss, guess it was Model 1.

After looking around and Mutt explaining the difference, I think I will just spend a little extra and order a Sabre upper. I like the Sabre products that are offered and dont want to deal with variations in chamber size. Also dont want to have possible issues down the road with a "close to Grendel" rifle.

Thanks again, off I go to order my upper so it will be waiting for me when I get home.
bs295  [Team Member]
12/30/2010 8:14:46 PM EST
double tap
Trigon1  [Member]
12/31/2010 3:32:35 AM EST
<Off-topic comment removed - Z>
sgt_mike  [Member]
12/31/2010 6:46:50 AM EST
Coming way late into this.
6.5 Sporter/Grendel/LBC-AR/PPC/CSS all will chamber the same .....the Leade difference and 2 degree difference in shoulder are within the reamer manufacturers Tolerances. Basic answer they will work provided that the bullet is seated to a depth that will allow it to work. as far as brass interchangeability ––- call Bill A, Les Baer, Lapula, Hornady you will get the same answer that I have provided.- Yes it will basically work, is there is exceptions to this. are the calibers different Yes by alot –– no–– Otherwise we are at the 7.62mm Nato vs the .308 chamber debates timeless and in the grand scheme useless....

Model 1 Credit Card issues I have ordered several times from these folks NEVER had a CC issue while doing standard AR builds for friends.
AA never a issue with CC or support. None of the vendors I have used have I had an issue.
While traveling TDY for the Military I have had issues with Hotel and Motels doing exactly what has been described with a Government CC that did not mean every Holiday Inn was corrupt, only that ONE individual whom violated the company policy (BTW Holiday Inn was not the chain).

My post is not to start a debate over chambers/ Reamers even though there is a difference, If I wanted to introduce a new name into the 6.5 arena all I need to do is change Bill A's Chamber, or Les Baer's, or CSS's (TX65) design and extend the leade or change the neck diameter by less than a thousand of an inch whaaalaaa new caliber - new name, no royalties - mo debates and confusion.
Trigon1  [Member]
12/31/2010 7:48:29 AM EST
Exactly! And then buy enough brass to cover yourself and don't worry about a thing.
At one time Les Baer had once fired AA brass for sale in quantity. I think it was used for load development with the 264 LBC.

And then you can shoot or name your own cartridge.

Just keep an eye on pressures.Some of the old load data is over the limit hot and was the cause of several mentioned problems.

Other than that the PPC 6.5's are a great stress reliever and a lot of fun.
Glane5910  [Team Member]
12/31/2010 8:22:49 AM EST
Model one uses a standard 7.62x39 bolt is about the only real difference. IIRC, they started a deal with AA but for whatever reason, didn't go thru with it. They have a ton of 7.62x39 bolts to use so that's how the chambers were cut.
Glane5910  [Team Member]
12/31/2010 8:30:35 AM EST
The 6.5 CSS is the same dimensions except a tighter neck. It was the tighter "match" chamber. Argument was the 295 neck would stop feeding sooner than the 300 neck. I tried to test this by taking my 6.5 CSS and shoot it, w/o cleaning, until it wouldn't chamber a round. After roughly 700 rounds straight, without cleaning, I got tired of loading mags/shooting. It never quit firing.
1-Wolverine  [Member]
12/31/2010 8:49:14 AM EST
Specialized Dynamics has a .264lbc/6.5 Grendel Group Buy going, with Black Hole Weaponry SS match grade barrel, it is a great deal for the complete upper.
sgt_mike  [Member]
12/31/2010 12:26:05 PM EST
Speaking of Brass Les Baer has Brass marked .264 LBC-AR Bunting on the Head stamp (Basically Hornady) which when I first called and inquired I was told that the brass was Small Rifle primed Excited I ordered some at .60 cents each then Les called from the back that they like all the Hornady 6.5 G marked cases uses the Large Rifle primer. Bummer I thought but I do want to try and see what the real Difference was from Laupla (aka AA Brass) from large to small rifle primer. For the Laupla Small rifle primer case AA has the best price I have found.

Thus far in the X39 reforms of Laupla (LR Primer) vs Remington (SR Primer) I really have not seen an accuracy difference that was obvious.

Black hole barrels I have not heard anything but good, wonder how it would hold up to a krieger or Staturn set-up If ya spring for it please keep us posted
JDogg1000  [Member]
12/31/2010 3:16:35 PM EST
Beware of fraudulent charges on your CC when dealing with Model 1. Shoes, Porn, I tunes and many others were charged to my account. Luckily my CC company caught it before they went through. Never suspected it was Model one until a whole bunch of others on here had the same issue. They will never get a dime from me again.
Muttt  [Member]
12/31/2010 3:21:36 PM EST
I have reloaded Wolf brass (with LR primer) and AA/Lapua brass (with SR primers) and loaded them both up with the same load of 30.5 grains of A2520 and have not notice any difference what so ever between the two different cases. They both shot the same, with the same level of accuracy. I don't know if there was any difference in velocity from small to large primers ....... since I don't have a chrono.

I've also noticed someone mentioning .264 lbc Hornady and Lapua brass. From what I understand, the stuff that you can get from Les Baer that is headstamped .264 lbc is actually just 6.5 Grendel brass with a different head stamp (this information was obtained from the manufacturer and was posted over on 65grendel.com). The brass cases are made from the exact same cases as the Grendel ammo (which is good) so there won't be any differnce in dimensions.

Mutt
sgt_mike  [Member]
12/31/2010 4:57:21 PM EST
Originally Posted By Muttt:
I've also noticed someone mentioning .264 lbc Hornady and Lapua brass. From what I understand, the stuff that you can get from Les Baer that is headstamped .264 lbc is actually just 6.5 Grendel brass with a different head stamp (this information was obtained from the manufacturer and was posted over on 65grendel.com). The brass cases are made from the exact same cases as the Grendel ammo (which is good) so there won't be any differnce in dimensions.

Mutt


Mutt that is correct 6.5 Grendel Hornady Brass = .264 LBC-AR Hornady Brass same same just a different Bunter is used (imprints the name on the Case head) Large rifle primer
The same holds true for 6.5Grendel Lapula = 6.5 Grendel AA brass just a differant bunter again manufactured by Lapuls with a small rifle primer
bs295  [Team Member]
12/31/2010 8:21:52 PM EST
Thanks for the replies guys, did not mean to start a small war with my question. After reading some of the answers and browsing different options last night, I just ordered an 16" upper from Alexander Arms. Figured I would go with the original and see how I like it. Will be shooting factory stuff when I go home on leave since I wont have time to start reloading for a while yet. Looking forward to playing with it and hopefully take it huntiing next season.

Everyone have a good New Year and stay safe.
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