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 458 socom vs 450 bushmaster
brian923  [Member]
8/12/2007 3:52:16 PM EST
i was wanting to hear what your guys opinoins were on the 450 bushmaster, and how you think it stacks up to the 458 socom. even the 50 beowulf. but i know that apples to oranges.

the favors i see in the 450 is that brass can be made out of 284 winchester brass, whick is fairly cheap. or at least cheaper than 458 brass. the main difference is the ability for the socom to use really heavy bullets.

another question... about the 450.... it is being factory produced with the 250 grn sst muzzle loading bullet. but.. hornady does make a 300 grn flat nose 45 cal. bullet. could this be loaded to work?? i have also seen heavier 45 cal bullets out there that might work for the 450. but... i havent been able to find a set of dies for the 450, so.... theres another plus for the 458 socom.

but, i mainly want to know if you think that the 450 bushy could duplicate the 458 with the same weight bullets.


thanks guys, brian
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Curlymaple42  [Member]
8/12/2007 4:23:13 PM EST
I am going to say no, it won't duplicate the 458S or the 50Beowulf, because the barrel twist is not designed to handle the heavier bullets. I may be wrong, but that is what I remember. The .50B and .458S have many bullet choices, from the 500S&W and the 45-70 respectively. I would guess fireforming and trimming 284win brass would be a lot of work, and I would not like you for it, since I shoot a Savage 99 in 284win and love it!! But really, I bet brass will be similar in price, mostly because it is a lower volume ctg than others more popular. If you want to wait a year or so, wait and see what happens with the 450Bushy, but if you want a big bore sooner, go with a .50Beo (my choice!) or a .458S (a great big bore also).

bfarrin1  [Team Member]
8/12/2007 5:11:19 PM EST

Originally Posted By brian923:

but, i mainly want to know if you think that the 450 bushy could duplicate the 458 with the same weight bullets.

thanks guys, brian


In my opinion, probably not.

But...

According to Quickload, 450 Bushmaster case capacity is 59.0g, 458 SOCOM is 61.6.

There is a definate lack of .458 250g bullets, and the ones that are out there are difficult to compare - as all I've ever found are Barnes.

Seeing that 2000fps isn't terribly difficult for a 300g out of a 458 SOCOM, I think 2200 fps out of a standard constructed 250g would be attainable.

Frankly, the 2.6g of case capacity isn't much difference....but the bullet shape of the .450 Bushmaster likely eats up a good bit of useable case capacity - maybe a + for the .458 SOCOM.

But, if you're using a typical .452 250-300g bullet, I question how the thing is going to feed without seating it even deeper in the case, further reducing case capacity. Ya might be stuck with very little bullet options for reloading.

Time will tell, I'm curious to see how the Bushmaster works out in the end.








Cold  [Moderator]
8/12/2007 5:16:08 PM EST
The 1:40 or 1: 24 twist rate which the 45 Bush was using (I am not sure which they finally settled on) is questionable... It seems that it would limit the reloader to pistol bullets...
RealTeacher  [Member]
8/12/2007 6:21:04 PM EST
In My openion, the 450 Bushmaster is somewhat ill-conceived. It's got the wrong twist in it, so it limits the gun to pistol bullets. A 250 grain 45 cal bullet at 2000+ FPS is good, but not in the league of a 400 grain 45 caliber bullet at 1600 + fps.

We try to re-invent the wheel yet again.
In 1876 Winchester brought out the M-75 and on shell it was chambered for was the 45-75. The 45-70 Government had been out for 3 years. In 1881 Marlin brought out the M-81 lever action and in 1886 Winchester brought out the M-86. Both the M-81 Marlin and the M-86 Winchester would use the 47-70, and hunters that killed bigger game then deer were usually more fond of the 45-70. See, the 45-70 shot 405 and 500 grain bullets at 1200+ FPS and the 45-75 shot 350 grain bullets at 1400+ Fps.
Both were effective and popular, but it was the government round that won the contest of popularity, and was by far the favorite for buffalo, bear and elk.
Now it's somewhat similar to today's 458 SOCOM and the 450 Bushmaster. The Bushmaster is OK, but I don't think it's going to have near the uses of the 458 SOCOM. The SOCOM can be used to deer and hogs, but also for moose and Grizzlies and everything else too.
Why Bushmaster just had to change the formula is beyond me. I guess it's the old story of the Emperor's New Cloths. Someone at Bushmaster just "had to know something special" and try to defy the laws of physics again, and make everyone thing it's was something special, but 130 years of hunting experience of American hunters may contradict them.
bfarrin1  [Team Member]
8/13/2007 1:20:37 AM EST

Originally Posted By RealTeacher:
In My openion, the 450 Bushmaster is somewhat ill-conceived. It's got the wrong twist in it, so it limits the gun to pistol bullets.


I would have thought a 16 twist more appropriate for across the spectrum use myself.

But....how many .452 "rifle" bullets are you aware of?


RealTeacher  [Member]
8/13/2007 4:52:14 AM EST
That's exactly my point!
I believe they should have made the bore .457-.458 and twisted it 1-18, instead of .452 and twisted it like a muzzleloader. They should have made a rifle for the use of RIFLE bullets.
There are plenty of 300 grain rifles bullets, and they go up to 400 and even 450. I don't know what the upper limit is with the SOCOM, but if Bushmaster had gone along the same lines, i am sure they could have made a much more versatile cartridge.
JFA  [Member]
8/13/2007 6:28:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By RealTeacher:
In My openion, the 450 Bushmaster is somewhat ill-conceived. It's got the wrong twist in it, so it limits the gun to pistol bullets. A 250 grain 45 cal bullet at 2000+ FPS is good, but not in the league of a 400 grain 45 caliber bullet at 1600 + fps.

We try to re-invent the wheel yet again.
In 1876 Winchester brought out the M-75 and on shell it was chambered for was the 45-75. The 45-70 Government had been out for 3 years. In 1881 Marlin brought out the M-81 lever action and in 1886 Winchester brought out the M-86. Both the M-81 Marlin and the M-86 Winchester would use the 47-70, and hunters that killed bigger game then deer were usually more fond of the 45-70. See, the 45-70 shot 405 and 500 grain bullets at 1200+ FPS and the 45-75 shot 350 grain bullets at 1400+ Fps.
Both were effective and popular, but it was the government round that won the contest of popularity, and was by far the favorite for buffalo, bear and elk.
Now it's somewhat similar to today's 458 SOCOM and the 450 Bushmaster. The Bushmaster is OK, but I don't think it's going to have near the uses of the 458 SOCOM. The SOCOM can be used to deer and hogs, but also for moose and Grizzlies and everything else too.
Why Bushmaster just had to change the formula is beyond me. I guess it's the old story of the Emperor's New Cloths. Someone at Bushmaster just "had to know something special" and try to defy the laws of physics again, and make everyone thing it's was something special, but 130 years of hunting experience of American hunters may contradict them.


First off Hornady quoted the velocity at 2200 fps. The muzzle energy is 2686 foot pounds. At 100 yards it's 1879 foot pounds. A 400 gr bullet at 1600 fps has a little over 1600 foot pounds energy.

On Bushmasters website the tech data for the 450 says it has a 1 in 24 twist. A Ruger #1 in 45-70 has a 1 in 20 twist. We know what bullet weights it will shoot. You really don't know for 100 percent sure what weight a twist will handle until you shoot it. Look at muzzle loaders. They shoot some very heavy weight bullets out of some very slow twists. Way slower then 1 in 24. On the other hand look at some pistol cartridges like the 9mm, 30 Luger, and 30 Mausers. Their twists run from 8's to 10's for bullets running around 90 grs. On the other hand a 30 carbine runs a 1 in 20 twist for 110 gr bullets.

The thing I will agree with is that there are not a lot of .452 heavy weight bullets out there, unless you go with hard cast, which you can size to where you want. For that matter you can size down .458 jacketed bullets too. We are only talking .006 inch. Don't forget that means you're taking the sides of the bullet down .003. Yes I know sizing down jacketed bullets often times ruins their jacket/core bond. It would not affect hot core bullets much if any at all. I've sized down many jacketed bullets with very good success.
Bend  [Member]
8/13/2007 7:02:09 AM EST
"... unless you go with hard cast..."

A heavy (250-400 grain) hard cast .452-4 bullet at 800-2400 fps can and has killed any and all big game in the northern hemisphere. I call BS on needing a "rifle" bullet. Feeding would be the only issue.
TonyRumore  [Member]
8/13/2007 8:23:29 AM EST
1:24 sounds about right to me. In testing various twists with the 44 mag and 440 Corbon AR's back in the 90's, I found that 1:25 was a decent compromise for all 44 caliber bullets from 180 - 300 grains. The 440 would stabalize everything with a 1:38 twist, but the 44 Mag needed a bit faster twist to run the 300's.

I also tested 1:18 twist barrels and that was way too steep for both calibers. Accuracy sucked with all bullets.

Unfortunately, I don't have any personal experience with the Hornady red tipped bullets, but I believe they have a fairly light front end compared to conventional bullets, thus will require a bit more twist. So, if you were only going to fire conventional bullets from the 450, a 1:38 twist is probably best. But with the red tipped bullet thrown into the equation, I suspect you would have to tighten it up a bit.





uafgrad  [Team Member]
8/13/2007 12:20:24 PM EST

Originally Posted By RealTeacher:
That's exactly my point!
I believe they should have made the bore .457-.458 and twisted it 1-18, instead of .452 and twisted it like a muzzleloader. They should have made a rifle for the use of RIFLE bullets.
There are plenty of 300 grain rifles bullets, and they go up to 400 and even 450. I don't know what the upper limit is with the SOCOM, but if Bushmaster had gone along the same lines, i am sure they could have made a much more versatile cartridge.


There are bullets available for the 458 SOCOM (.458 dia) ranging from 250 grains to 600 grains
only1asterisk  [Member]
8/13/2007 5:10:51 PM EST

1:24 sounds about right to me.


Me too. I think it will work will all available .451-452" bullets. It should be good up to nearly 400 grains depending on bullet design. I still think the 450 BM is a not as well designed a round as either the 458 SOCOM or .50 Beowulf.

David
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