AR15.Com Archives
 FN M16A2 Upper from CDNN
FN1889M  [Member]
2/12/2007 3:25:52 PM EST




I purchased an FN M16A2 upper from CDNN. Attached are photos of the receiver markings and feed ramps. (First time posting pictures. Please pardon some technical difficulties.)

The upper was advertised as new, but has been fired a bit - "slightly" new. It has a little powder residue, but very clean rifling. Not a "boot camp" rifle - perhaps fired for "proofing" at the factory, and perhaps more. It is hard to tell. It looks like it was taken off a rifle and tossed into a crate of uppers for a few years - it has some scratches and that "neglected" feel. No lube, etc.

The barrel is chrome lined, and thin under the hand guard. The barrel would pass for new. The handguard is a little loose, and scratched. The fit in my Stag receiver is not tight, but not sloppy, either. It could use an accu-wedge, but is within acceptable tolerances. The sights are standard, and I am just glad they were included.

Fitting it with a LMT M16 bolt/carrier. Shooting it this weekend. If I can find this post again I will give a range report.

Summary: I like the thin 1/7 MP chrome lined FN marked barrel. It points well, and feels more natural than my HBAR. The receiver itself is nice but not special. I would be just as happy with an Armalite, etc. if I could keep that barrel.

The goal was to build one, and have a plinker. Did that. It will work.
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scottryan  [Team Member]
2/12/2007 4:32:29 PM EST
What is the date on the barrel? It is located behind the handguard cap.

Any marks on the brass deflector?
FedDC  [Member]
2/12/2007 4:37:29 PM EST
I thought that FN wasn't allowed to sell parts or AR rifles as part of their agreement with the gov? Perhaps these came from a vendor and were QC rejects that did not pass the test fire?
FN1889M  [Member]
2/12/2007 4:44:41 PM EST
I don't see any date on the barrel. Otherwise the barrel is marked FNMI etc., and the front sight base is marked FN. (I did not take the handguard off.)
Yes, it has brass marks on the deflector, but not a lot.
Clearly shot some, but I have had factory-new rifles with more crud in them.
Does anyone know what the factory test firing procedure would be? # of rounds, etc?
(I assume that it had a magazine at full-auto - and that is about how dirty is looks.)

As for FN selling parts, my knowledgeable source said that FNMI surplussed barrels, receivers and uppers when they switched from A2 to A4 configuration.

See www.creedmoorsports.com/store/product.php?productid=16910

Anyway, it looks good, balances well, and I like FN stuff in general. It matches my FN Supreme Mauser ;-)
scottryan  [Team Member]
2/12/2007 4:55:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By FN1889M:
I don't see any date on the barrel. Otherwise the barrel is marked FNMI etc., and the front sight base is marked FN. ( did not take the handguard off.)
Yes, it has brass marks on the deflector, but not a lot.
Clearly shot some, but I have had factory new rifles with more crud in them.
Does anyone know what the factory test firing procedure would be? # of rounds, etc?
(I assume that it had a magazine at full-auto.)

As for selling, my knowledgeable source said that FNMI surplussed barrels, receivers and uppers when they switched from A2 to A4 configuration. These were factory rifles that never went into military inventory. (They might have been part of a canceled order?)

Anyway, it looks good, balances well, and I like FN stuff in general. It matches my FN Supreme ;-)



I would say the wear at the barrel extension is more than just a test fire.

Did you look behind the handguard cap for the date. You have to take the handguards off.
FN1889M  [Member]
2/12/2007 4:57:46 PM EST
In time. Do I need to take off the front sight base to remove the handguards? Not on my list right now - what is the simple way to do this?
scottryan  [Team Member]
2/12/2007 4:59:19 PM EST
No you do not need to take off the front sight to remove the handguards.
wildearp  [Team Member]
2/12/2007 5:00:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By FN1889M:
In time. I do I need to take off the front sight base to remove the handguards? Not on my list right now.


Why?
FN1889M  [Member]
2/12/2007 5:02:19 PM EST
Because my ex-wife is calling me for dinner, for the third time, and has that tone in her voice, if you must know. Let's focus on the rifle, not my personal life.

OK - figured it out - 99. Correction 01/01.

OK, have the crud out. It is really not bad. Not new - but not abused.

I have built and rebuilt a lot of other firearms. But this is my first hands-on with an AR. (I got the Colt HBAR a couple weeks ago, and was inspired to learn the AR.) This piece seems more than OK. Anything I should look for that is not obvious?
Ekie  [Team Member]
2/12/2007 5:52:02 PM EST
Thanks for sharing the pics, was wondering what they were selling.

I agree with Scott, that upper has been shot more then a little bit.

And no, those FN uppers are not supposed to be on the market, it is a violation of the US Goverment's M16 license. But stuff happens.

FN1889M  [Member]
2/12/2007 6:29:37 PM EST
Yes, I think you are right about it being shot more than a little, but it is not as much wear as it seems from the picture, after cleaning. It cleaned up nice.

How it got to CDNN? The rifle might have been sent back to a third party contractor for a rebuild, and the upper found it's way out the door rather than to the scrap heap. And people leave things out of contracts by mistake. Who knows. Stuff happens.

Anyway, it looks nicer after cleaning, and I am looking forward to shooting it. Stag receiver and all.

cgv69  [Team Member]
2/13/2007 4:19:16 AM EST
FN1889M -

Thanks for the pics. (a few more wouldn't have hurt )

Is the barrel marked in front of the FSB with these markings?...



For the price they are asking, I would have thought\expected these would be in better condition then what your describing (especially considering these are listed as "new")
FN1889M  [Member]
2/13/2007 6:47:22 AM EST
Same barrel.

As for condition, well, it is CDNN, and they sell a lot of used firearms. There may have been some new uppers in the pile. And this one is not bad. After a couple weekends at the gravel pit, they are all used. No regrets on the purchase.

I will post some pictures when I get it together and shoot it.

Added: I don't get any kicks out of the latest carbine attachments. This is a little like an M14 clone - a lot of GI parts on someone else's receiver. I have 4 Mausers, a couple Garands, an M14 clone, an M40 copy, etc. This is no difference. Few of us will own a real military M16 or M4. Especially where I live, where full auto weapons are not allowed. (My game warden friend has an issued TRW M14 that I can fire. That is it.) The nice thing about firearms collecting and shooting is that everybody can find their own thing. I like the genuine GI barrel and receiver, and do not want a 14 inch Oly/Bushy carbine. Someone else gets their kicks with the latest whiz-bang attachments on an 11 inch barrel. It's all good.

Got it all together. Looks good. Pictures and range report to follow.
pyro6988  [Team Member]
2/13/2007 8:38:03 AM EST
Does CDNN still have these?


I haven't seen them listed.
cgv69  [Team Member]
2/13/2007 8:47:29 AM EST
FN1889M - If you are happy with your purchase that's all that matters


Originally Posted By pyro6988:
Does CDNN still have these?


I haven't seen them listed.

They are still listed on their web site but they are listed as "Out of Stock"
dtrosch  [Team Member]
2/19/2007 10:47:45 AM EST
My understanding is that these MAY be from complete rifles that had their uppers swapped for flat tops. The entire uppers then became surplus, and were not sold from FN but by the .gov or .mil owner (through the DRMO or whatever). This would NOT be a violation by FN because they sold them to the contracted GOV purchaser. What the GOV does with them when they are done is probably not covered by the contract provisions.

Just my understanding of what is happening--I am ready to be corrected if anyone has different info.
AR15fan  [Team Member]
2/19/2007 10:50:19 AM EST
FN is allowed to sell to the military and govt entities. Once the purchaser takes possession they can resell to anyone they want. CDNN gets a lot of police trade ins. There is a good chance some PD bought FN M16A2's years back, just upgraded to carbine or flat top uppers and CDNN got the traded in M16A2 uppers.

This is the same way most of the genuine M193 ammo gets on the open market too. US gov surpluses it to a police department. Police department sells it to an ammo distrubutor for fund to buy other equipment or swaps it for other ammo they need more.
scottryan  [Team Member]
2/19/2007 11:31:39 AM EST

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
FN is allowed to sell to the military and govt entities. Once the purchaser takes possession they can resell to anyone they want. CDNN gets a lot of police trade ins. There is a good chance some PD bought FN M16A2's years back, just upgraded to carbine or flat top uppers and CDNN got the traded in M16A2 uppers.

This is the same way most of the genuine M193 ammo gets on the open market too. US gov surpluses it to a police department. Police department sells it to an ammo distrubutor for fund to buy other equipment or swaps it for other ammo they need more.


FN is allowed to sell to the military only. FN cannot sell to any other govt entity such as the DOS, FBI, CIA, ATF, DEA, etc
cmd1522  [Member]
2/19/2007 11:52:34 AM EST
are they out and if so, are they going to get any more. also, what is the price?
AR15fan  [Team Member]
2/19/2007 12:40:15 PM EST

Originally Posted By scottryan:

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
FN is allowed to sell to the military and govt entities. Once the purchaser takes possession they can resell to anyone they want. CDNN gets a lot of police trade ins. There is a good chance some PD bought FN M16A2's years back, just upgraded to carbine or flat top uppers and CDNN got the traded in M16A2 uppers.

This is the same way most of the genuine M193 ammo gets on the open market too. US gov surpluses it to a police department. Police department sells it to an ammo distrubutor for fund to buy other equipment or swaps it for other ammo they need more.


FN is allowed to sell to the military only. FN cannot sell to any other govt entity such as the DOS, FBI, CIA, ATF, DEA, etc


DRMO?
FN1889M  [Member]
2/19/2007 2:40:00 PM EST




Finished FN upper pictures. Just your basic A2 on a Stag lower. But kind of fun. Turned out nice. My truck gun.

It fits well on the lower - a little bit of play, but not much. Planned changes - a 2 stage trigger, and NM 1/2 MOA sights.

Added: And yes the deer head is kind of hokey - sort of looks like a 1963 Outdoor Life magazine cover. But I kind of like it in a campy sort of way. And based on my sample of one, the Stag lower is good, and went together well. I would not hesitate to get another Stag lower. The upper does not know the difference.
Dave_A  [Team Member]
2/19/2007 2:42:15 PM EST

Originally Posted By FedDC:
I thought that FN wasn't allowed to sell parts or AR rifles as part of their agreement with the gov? Perhaps these came from a vendor and were QC rejects that did not pass the test fire?


Like the M16A1 parts, these probably came from the govt...

The M16A2 is being phased out for the A4 in many places....
Dave_A  [Team Member]
2/19/2007 2:44:24 PM EST

Originally Posted By AR15fan:

Originally Posted By scottryan:

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
FN is allowed to sell to the military and govt entities. Once the purchaser takes possession they can resell to anyone they want. CDNN gets a lot of police trade ins. There is a good chance some PD bought FN M16A2's years back, just upgraded to carbine or flat top uppers and CDNN got the traded in M16A2 uppers.

This is the same way most of the genuine M193 ammo gets on the open market too. US gov surpluses it to a police department. Police department sells it to an ammo distrubutor for fund to buy other equipment or swaps it for other ammo they need more.


FN is allowed to sell to the military only. FN cannot sell to any other govt entity such as the DOS, FBI, CIA, ATF, DEA, etc


DRMO?


Yep...

How do you think CDNN got all those USGI M16A1 uppers?

We are looking at the last days of the A2 design, and the 'replaced' uppers are likely being re-sold...

Just like the A1s...
ww1415  [Member]
2/19/2007 4:52:23 PM EST
"FN is allowed to sell to the military only. FN cannot sell to any other govt entity such as the DOS, FBI, CIA, ATF, DEA, etc"


Not quite... I'm not sure what the current provisions of their contract are, but I have personally seen, up close, FN M16A2 rifles in the hands of US Park Service Rangers. The lower receivers were marked in the same manner as the US Military contract lowers with the one exception being the property markings: "Property of USNPS" and that was a factory stamp - not a re-stamp.

The story I was given on those rifles was that FN called the Park Service and said they had something like 700+ M16A2 rifles as "contract over-runs" and would the be interested in purchasing them. At the time the Park Service had already acquired surplus M16A1 rifles from the military and was replacing their (then) hodge-podge of .223 and .308 rifles with M16A1 (and subsequently A2) rifles. The Park Service said "yes" and purchased the rifles. What was strange was the "Property of USNPS" markings. If the rifles were a contract over-run or some such thing, I would have thought that they'd already have been marked in the usual "Property of US GOVT". Perhaps FN had the most of the parts already made, or at least the raw materials ready to go and wanted to sell off the rifles rather than carry them until a future order. They obviously made the receivers after they received the Park Service order considering the factory stamping on the lowers.

I saw the rifles at two different USNPS Park Ranger training sessions in 1998 and 1999. I think the "USNPS" FNMI M16A2 rifles were manufactured in either 1997 or 1998.

Later I saw some TV spot with Park Rangers training with M4's so I guess they either bought some of those or converted what they had. I'm not sure what they carry today.

scottryan  [Team Member]
2/19/2007 6:46:26 PM EST

Originally Posted By ww1415:
"FN is allowed to sell to the military only. FN cannot sell to any other govt entity such as the DOS, FBI, CIA, ATF, DEA, etc"


Not quite... I'm not sure what the current provisions of their contract are, but I have personally seen, up close, FN M16A2 rifles in the hands of US Park Service Rangers. The lower receivers were marked in the same manner as the US Military contract lowers with the one exception being the property markings: "Property of USNPS" and that was a factory stamp - not a re-stamp.

The story I was given on those rifles was that FN called the Park Service and said they had something like 700+ M16A2 rifles as "contract over-runs" and would the be interested in purchasing them. At the time the Park Service had already acquired surplus M16A1 rifles from the military and was replacing their (then) hodge-podge of .223 and .308 rifles with M16A1 (and subsequently A2) rifles. The Park Service said "yes" and purchased the rifles. What was strange was the "Property of USNPS" markings. If the rifles were a contract over-run or some such thing, I would have thought that they'd already have been marked in the usual "Property of US GOVT". Perhaps FN had the most of the parts already made, or at least the raw materials ready to go and wanted to sell off the rifles rather than carry them until a future order. They obviously made the receivers after they received the Park Service order considering the factory stamping on the lowers.

I saw the rifles at two different USNPS Park Ranger training sessions in 1998 and 1999. I think the "USNPS" FNMI M16A2 rifles were manufactured in either 1997 or 1998.

Later I saw some TV spot with Park Rangers training with M4's so I guess they either bought some of those or converted what they had. I'm not sure what they carry today.




You are going to need to prove this.
ww1415  [Member]
2/19/2007 7:23:02 PM EST
You are going to need to prove this.

Wish I could, but unfortunately I can't. All I can tell you is what I saw with my own two eyes and heard from their head firearms instructor at the time. I did not have a camera with me either time I viewed the rifles and therefore have no pics of the rifles. Perhaps down the road someone, somewhere, will be able to get pics of these rifles, specifically pics of the lowers.

IIRC the uppers had the typical "FK" forge codes and the lowers had a high serial numbers (7 or 8 digits).

I would agree with you - I don't think FN regularly sells M16A2's, A4's, etc. outside military contracts. I found the "Property of USNPS" markings to be more than a little strange, but that's what I saw - just passing it along for what it's worth.
klaxxon  [Team Member]
2/20/2007 4:22:58 AM EST
CDNN is most likely selling .mil surplus uppers. I'm AD .mil and our armory has a couple of Colt M4 uppers on FN lowers that came from Crane that way.
mongo001  [Team Member]
2/20/2007 12:50:09 PM EST
Wouldn't mind getting a hold of a few of these. I'm still playing with chopped 20" barreled uppers and these are perfect for that, as long as they're not shot out.
scottryan  [Team Member]
2/20/2007 1:52:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By mongo001:
Wouldn't mind getting a hold of a few of these. I'm still playing with chopped 20" barreled uppers and these are perfect for that, as long as they're not shot out.



Do you really think you need to chop a collectable piece?
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