AR15.Com Archives
 shooting prone
Bub0214  [Member]
10/23/2011 1:55:19 PM
i have noticed when i shot prone, if i let the bottom of the magazine rest on the ground my poi shifts. in my case couple inches high and approximatel three inches to the left. i'm using steel mags and a non-ff barrel. anyone have similiar experience?
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scottrh2  [Team Member]
10/23/2011 4:06:57 PM
No, I was always trained to keep the mag off the ground and use a proper supporting hand under the HG or a sandbag or now a nice grippod when prone.
foursixty  [Member]
10/23/2011 4:38:25 PM
I actually shoot my best using the mag as a monopod. I don't have any poi changes. It's nothing mechanical changing where your bullets are impacting, it's you. Now that you realize you are having a shift in your point of impact you should practice that technique more if you plan to continue using it. The member above me doesn't do it because he was trained otherwise. Nothing wrong with that. You got to shoot how you learned and how you are most comfortable.
Mounger  [Member]
10/23/2011 5:26:42 PM
I shoot very frequently monopod off of the magazine with no POI shifts. This is about as good as it gets for a field shooting position with an unmodified AR platform IF you keep your hand off of the hand guard and maintain a consistent head position.

Are you touching the barrel in any way? Grasp the front of the magwell with your off hand if you are.

My guess is that you are using a different head position/cheek weld when you are shooting prone.

I normally have to adjust out/lengthen my stock when I go prone to get the same head position that I have from any of the other positions.
ar911d  [Member]
10/23/2011 6:23:42 PM
I shoot using the mag as a monopod and don't notice a shift at all. Just keep practicing, sometimes a different position can effect the basics such as sight picture and trigger control.
LedZeppelin  [Member]
10/23/2011 7:15:19 PM
Considering you have a non-FF handguard, how does shooting prone differ from shooting kneeling/standing for you?

Are you using a sling?

Do you hold the handguard when you're standing/kneeling, but don't when you're prone (or do you put less pressure on it when you're prone?)

Not knowing exactly what you're doing, I would bet the issue is differences in pressure on the non-FF handguard (read barrel), not using the mag as a monopod.
1-75Ranger  [Member]
10/23/2011 8:08:08 PM
Shooting off the magazine is a sound technique, sounds like you need to work on other fundamentals in your shooting. Nothing that takes much work and should be able to correct easy.

Work on your trigger reset and your head position
RickyRecon  [Member]
10/23/2011 8:39:28 PM
Originally Posted By 1-75Ranger:
Shooting off the magazine is a sound technique, sounds like you need to work on other fundamentals in your shooting. Nothing that takes much work and should be able to correct easy.

Work on your trigger reset and your head position


Your magazine is for holding and feeding ammunition, not resting the rifle.

OP should learn to use a sling like a man.
458winmag  [Team Member]
10/23/2011 8:49:23 PM
Originally Posted By RickyRecon:
Originally Posted By 1-75Ranger:
Shooting off the magazine is a sound technique, sounds like you need to work on other fundamentals in your shooting. Nothing that takes much work and should be able to correct easy.

Work on your trigger reset and your head position


Your magazine is for holding and feeding ammunition, not resting the rifle.

OP should learn to use a sling like a man.


http://www.nrahq.org/compete/RuleBooks/HPR/hpr-w05.pdf
Mounger  [Member]
10/23/2011 8:53:46 PM
Originally Posted By RickyRecon:
Originally Posted By 1-75Ranger:
Shooting off the magazine is a sound technique, sounds like you need to work on other fundamentals in your shooting. Nothing that takes much work and should be able to correct easy.

Work on your trigger reset and your head position


Your magazine is for holding and feeding ammunition, not resting the rifle.

OP should learn to use a sling like a man.


Adopting a rest to obtain the most stable firing platform is the essence of marksmanship. The magazine happens to be readily available and does a great job of this while having absolutely no negative affects on performance or reliability of the weapon. It is a win win situation.

Using a sling is also a great way to accomplish this. Unfortunately, the M16/AR platform does not respond well to sling use in its as issued configuration.
Harv24  [Team Member]
10/23/2011 9:29:36 PM
Originally Posted By Mounger:
Originally Posted By RickyRecon:
Originally Posted By 1-75Ranger:
Shooting off the magazine is a sound technique, sounds like you need to work on other fundamentals in your shooting. Nothing that takes much work and should be able to correct easy.

Work on your trigger reset and your head position


Your magazine is for holding and feeding ammunition, not resting the rifle.

OP should learn to use a sling like a man.


Adopting a rest to obtain the most stable firing platform is the essence of marksmanship. The magazine happens to be readily available and does a great job of this while having absolutely no negative affects on performance or reliability of the weapon. It is a win win situation.

Using a sling is also a great way to accomplish this. Unfortunately, the M16/AR platform does not respond well to sling use in its as issued configuration.



Exactly... the myth of using the mag will cause a malfunction is just that...Great technique..

The ones that believe it does.. wear yellow glasses and only shoot on very nicely manicured grass lawn ranges and shoot on sunny days..
TPDavis  [Member]
10/24/2011 9:09:10 AM
Sounds like you need to work on fundamentals. My guess is your sight picture is changing when you shoot prone, the magazine has nothing to do with it.
thornejc  [Member]
10/24/2011 9:14:47 AM
You could be tightening up right before the shot. With the mag on the ground, if you tighten your muscles up (or pull back it) will cause the rifle to want to rotate around that pivot point (the corner of the mag on the ground) which translates into vertical inaccuracy - in this case you shoot high. Its just 1 of the many possibilities. Other than that, problems with the vertical spread of your rounds while prone is typically a breathing issue - but that applies more to a large up and down spread, not just shooting high
Gregory_K  [Team Member]
10/24/2011 10:48:25 AM
Originally Posted By TPDavis:
Sounds like you need to work on fundamentals. My guess is your sight picture is changing when you shoot prone, the magazine has nothing to do with it.


This.
Fincho  [Member]
10/24/2011 10:51:13 AM
get a nice 1907 sling
pun  [Member]
10/24/2011 12:54:03 PM
Sounds like breathing and head posistion/sight picture could be the problem.
dookie1481  [Member]
10/24/2011 1:08:59 PM
Originally Posted By RickyRecon:
Originally Posted By 1-75Ranger:
Shooting off the magazine is a sound technique, sounds like you need to work on other fundamentals in your shooting. Nothing that takes much work and should be able to correct easy.

Work on your trigger reset and your head position


Your magazine is for holding and feeding ammunition, not resting the rifle.

OP should learn to use a sling like a man.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=pWEjA8SxDc0#t=76s
steve-oh  [Team Member]
10/24/2011 1:38:19 PM
Originally Posted By RickyRecon:
Originally Posted By 1-75Ranger:
Shooting off the magazine is a sound technique, sounds like you need to work on other fundamentals in your shooting. Nothing that takes much work and should be able to correct easy.

Work on your trigger reset and your head position


Your magazine is for holding and feeding ammunition, not resting the rifle.

OP should learn to use a sling like a man.


Incorrect.

Anyways. Balancing off a mag shouldn't affect your POI as much as it does.
TJRoush  [Member]
10/24/2011 2:04:53 PM
LAV says elbow, elbow, magazine! I don't want to argue with him.
Augee  [Team Member]
10/24/2011 2:38:01 PM
Originally Posted By RickyRecon:
Originally Posted By 1-75Ranger:
Shooting off the magazine is a sound technique, sounds like you need to work on other fundamentals in your shooting. Nothing that takes much work and should be able to correct easy.

Work on your trigger reset and your head position


Your magazine is for holding and feeding ammunition, not resting the rifle.

OP should learn to use a sling like a man.


My my my, aren't we fortunate to be in the presence of such a manly shooter, aint we guys?

I guess the rest of us girly men will have to settle for using whatever support makes itself available to get a stable shooting position for putting accurate rounds down range, even if its the magazine.

OP, as others have stated, it sounds like you're changing something else when you shoot prone that's independent of using the magazine as a rest. Try to eliminate as many variables as possible and see what's going on, though it sounds like you're getting a different sight picture when in prone.

What position are you zeroing from? What sights are you using?

Gosh I wish I was manly enough to use a 1907 sling when I'm on patrols.

~Augee
dookie1481  [Member]
10/24/2011 3:13:45 PM
Originally Posted By Augee:
Originally Posted By RickyRecon:
Originally Posted By 1-75Ranger:
Shooting off the magazine is a sound technique, sounds like you need to work on other fundamentals in your shooting. Nothing that takes much work and should be able to correct easy.

Work on your trigger reset and your head position


Your magazine is for holding and feeding ammunition, not resting the rifle.

OP should learn to use a sling like a man.

What position are you zeroing from?


Good point, if you are zeroing from a bench you will likely see some POI shift when you shoot prone, particularly with a non-FF handguard.
uboat534  [Team Member]
10/24/2011 3:58:52 PM
The mag as a rest is an age old argument. I guess it depends on what year you went thro basic. In 97 if the Drill sgts caught you resting the mag there was hell to pay. Nowadays I see alot of ppl doing it. I dont do it myself I sling it with the web sling and go at it. As long as it works have at it.
Munch520  [Member]
10/24/2011 5:33:29 PM
I noticed a bit of difference when I first used the mag-o-pod technique, adjusted my head and no more problems. Tempting to blame it on the gear but I bet if you play with some fundamentals you'll fix the inconsistency.
458winmag  [Team Member]
10/24/2011 10:54:07 PM
Originally Posted By uboat534:
The mag as a rest is an age old argument. I guess it depends on what year you went thro basic. In 97 if the Drill sgts caught you resting the mag there was hell to pay. Nowadays I see alot of ppl doing it. I dont do it myself I sling it with the web sling and go at it. As long as it works have at it.


Drill Sgts... What the Hell do they know. Sides that, in '75 they said the same thing at FLW.

Try as I might, I can't get low enough to use the mag as a mono pod (let alone an M14) on some rifles. On bolt guns, I,m beyond screwed.

Guess you and I are just Old School and were taught Basic Marksmanship incorrectly

KZ45  [Team Member]
10/24/2011 11:12:20 PM
I have not seen the mag resting taught at any firearms training institutes.

Although I haven't been to them all.
foursixty  [Member]
10/24/2011 11:27:04 PM
Originally Posted By 458winmag:
Originally Posted By uboat534:
The mag as a rest is an age old argument. I guess it depends on what year you went thro basic. In 97 if the Drill sgts caught you resting the mag there was hell to pay. Nowadays I see alot of ppl doing it. I dont do it myself I sling it with the web sling and go at it. As long as it works have at it.


Drill Sgts... What the Hell do they know. Sides that, in '75 they said the same thing at FLW.

Try as I might, I can't get low enough to use the mag as a mono pod (let alone an M14) on some rifles. On bolt guns, I,m beyond screwed.

Guess you and I are just Old School and were taught Basic Marksmanship incorrectly



I don't think the OP was trying to get a debate on whether or not you are supposed to shoot using the mag as a pod. I've been through basic same as many other people here. I couldn't care less what some drill instructor thinks...(I ain't there anymore, lol).

If you have a bad magazine then shooting off of the mag may cause problems. The military tries to eliminate these problems before they arise by just saying don't do it. Just because the military taught you a certain way to shoot does not mean they taught you the BEST way to shoot. This is a common misconception along with the "gotta be milspec cause that's what they require" train of thought. I am not saying you are wrong. You have to shoot however is comfortable for you. That will be best every time. The people that went through their training during the World War's were taught to shoot their 1911's using one hand. Do you think that is the best or most stable technique??

I am not trying to flame you or anyone that doesn't use the mag technique. To each his own. But if you have good equipment that's not causing feeding problems there is nothing in the world wrong with it. And I have a very hard time understanding why someone would not try and take advantage of a little extra stability that's free. OP, I stand by my statements along with others as well. It's not your equipment you just need a little more practice. I am willing to bet you are putting your head in a different position to try and get low enough. That is what is causing your POI shift. Nothing a few more rounds down range won't fix.

EDIT: Please don't mistake my statements for hatefulness towards our great military and their instructors. Just because I don't do everything they way they do does not mean I don't respect and honor them for the service.
458winmag  [Team Member]
10/24/2011 11:29:01 PM
Apparently, you've been to the wrong ones. (KZ45) You're not alone..

I'm still trying to wrap my head around this mono mag. grip thing. A, AK has a longer mag than an AR, which in turn longer than a M14.

How the Hell did anyone shoot a M1?
DocBach  [Team Member]
10/24/2011 11:30:19 PM
I was trained originally to never place the magazine on the ground - then I went to the US Army Marksmanship Unit's Squad Designated Marksman school; pretty much the biggest thing they taught was keeping force off the handguard at all times, no putting any external force on the barrel like sandbags or bipods or grip pods or your hand or sling tension or whatever. We were taught to push the weapon into our shoulder pocket with our non firing hand wrapped around the magazine well, with the magazine resting on the ground.

Whats happening with your POI shift is because your barrel is non-freefloating and you zeroed with force under your barrel with sandbags or blocks or whatever and you are shooting without that force directing the whip of your barrel up, your POI shifts low.



here is a graphic I made for a PPT I put together to teach my platoon the things I learned at SDM.
1-75Ranger  [Member]
10/25/2011 12:03:10 AM
Great comment because I know of several president 100 qualified and governor 20 shooters that teach this very same style. But I guess I know more than them. AMU is also etching this.

Maybe if your on a KD range and shooting slow fire or a Camp Perry match then yea sling up. But in the real world off the magazine is the way to go


Originally Posted By RickyRecon:
Originally Posted By 1-75Ranger:
Shooting off the magazine is a sound technique, sounds like you need to work on other fundamentals in your shooting. Nothing that takes much work and should be able to correct easy.

Work on your trigger reset and your head position


Your magazine is for holding and feeding ammunition, not resting the rifle.

OP should learn to use a sling like a man.


1-75Ranger  [Member]
10/25/2011 12:15:24 AM
I have been trained by both Larry Vickers and Pat Rogers and they both teach this. I am pretty sure guys like Jason Fella does as well. Is it the only way to shot prone...No it is not, but this is what he is working on.

Many of us set up our rifle for more of a tactical situation, I don't see me snapping into a 1907 sling while on patrol in Iraq.

There is a time and a place for every technic.....times changes and so do shutting styles


Originally Posted By KZ45:
I have not seen the mag resting taught at any firearms training institutes.

Although I haven't been to them all.


DocBach  [Team Member]
10/25/2011 12:15:25 AM
If you don't use the same tension on the sling every time, your POI will shift several MOA. No thanks on the sling support, at least not with an AR style rifle where the sling is literally attached to the barrel.
Mounger  [Member]
10/25/2011 2:32:57 AM

Drill Sgts... What the Hell do they know. Sides that, in '75 they said the same thing at FLW.

Try as I might, I can't get low enough to use the mag as a mono pod (let alone an M14) on some rifles. On bolt guns, I,m beyond screwed.

Guess you and I are just Old School and were taught Basic Marksmanship incorrectly

[/quote]

I imagine they were doing what all Drill SGT's do: Training recruits to the very best they possibly could. And just like any of you that don't shoot with the mag on the ground, it does not mean you or the Drill SGT is wrong. It means you are doing what works best for you.

I cant get the mag-monopod to work with any weapon that does not use a 30rnd magazine. Fortunately, the 1907 sling works awesome with my 03's, Garands and M14's that Ive fired. Definately does NOT work well with a M16 or a FAL in AS ISSUED configuration. The sling pressure puts my shots with the AR platform easily 4 inches low 100 yards. I am low left from a standing position. Zero's at 100 yds with the hand guard resting on bags will most of the time have you off of the target low on a Figure 11 target at 300 yards.

This does not happen with the wood stocked battle and sporting rifles usually. Comparing these and the use of a sling with the AR platform is apples and oranges.

The OP's question was basically is monopoding off the magazine causing his point of impact shifts. This does not cause POI shifts. Use of a sling on an AR, or anything ele that puts pressure on the barrel, CAUSES POI shifts.

I am aware that there are shooters out there that know that using a sling on these rifles cause POI shifts, use the sling anyway and compensate in their sight adjustment for the POI shifts their sling causes. Hey, it works for them!

I am too feeble minded to keep up with that dope and concentrate on everything else I am supposed to. So I do what is easiest and works for me.

Mounger  [Member]
10/25/2011 2:48:26 AM
Originally Posted By 1-75Ranger:
Great comment because I know of several president 100 qualified and governor 20 shooters that teach this very same style. But I guess I know more than them. AMU is


+1 this. The ones that win do this.

uboat534  [Team Member]
10/25/2011 4:10:32 AM
I hear you on the sling tension. I would use a hasty sling on our issue A-4's and that was no more than 100 meters.The shift change was nominal We were in cities most of the time and that was the longest shot. Anything further I used whatever was availible. Wall, fence humvee hood etc. Bottom line if it works use it.
Gregory_K  [Team Member]
10/25/2011 7:22:00 AM
I see lots of guys mono pod a AR type rifle. You don't have to get into, or for that matter out of, a sling pos to use the mono pod.
I am to fat to use a 30 mono pod, but a 45 mono pod works just fine.

Use every advantage you have to shoot better.
Harv24  [Team Member]
10/25/2011 8:15:18 PM
Originally Posted By 1-75Ranger:
I have been trained by both Larry Vickers and Pat Rogers and they both teach this. I am pretty sure guys like Jason Fella does as well. Is it the only way to shot prone...No it is not, but this is what he is working on.

Many of us set up our rifle for more of a tactical situation, I don't see me snapping into a 1907 sling while on patrol in Iraq.

There is a time and a place for every technic.....times changes and so do shutting styles






Exactly

Different applications and desired outcomes require different techniques... I don't use just a pitching wedge to play 18 holes of golf..

When I need to do some dynamic down and dirty rds on target type shooting..I'm on my belly monopoding a magazine and get good hits...

When I'm shooting Highpower and I'm trying to cut the X.. I use a good sling....

Being Old school should not just be trying to shoe horn one technique you learned 30 yrs ago in to every situation...
AMUshooter10  [Team Member]
11/3/2011 8:20:45 PM
Originally Posted By KZ45:
I have not seen the mag resting taught at any firearms training institutes.

Although I haven't been to them all.


If you count the army as a firearms training institution than you are wrong.

If you take a non FF gun, ie any army rifle, and zero it at 25m with a cco or acog and shoot off of the sandbag or chipped rubber blocks.. you are in for an education when you shoot without that block or bag under the hand guard. There will be as much as a 4 ft. change of impact at just 200m if you put good head pressure on your supported position on the zero range. (25m) And then go to unsupported (shooting off the mag or not).

I have said for years the best thing for the army rifleman would be a free float handguard, and a dedicated group of weapons trainers. Not just Drill's.

Sounds like the original problem is he used some support under the handguard for his zero. The worst would be one of those crappy bipod gangster grips for support on a non FF.

dubyaS  [Member]
11/3/2011 8:30:54 PM
Accuracy follows consistency. Horrible form that is consistent will beat out perfect form that is inconsistent.
MTNmyMag  [Team Member]
11/3/2011 8:34:00 PM
If your rifle wont shoot off the mag, get it fixed
diaz_aa  [Team Member]
11/3/2011 9:54:40 PM
Originally Posted By AMUshooter10:
Originally Posted By KZ45:
I have not seen the mag resting taught at any firearms training institutes.

Although I haven't been to them all.


If you count the army as a firearms training institution than you are wrong.

If you take a non FF gun, ie any army rifle, and zero it at 25m with a cco or acog and shoot off of the sandbag or chipped rubber blocks.. you are in for an education when you shoot without that block or bag under the hand guard. There will be as much as a 4 ft. change of impact at just 200m if you put good head pressure on your supported position on the zero range. (25m) And then go to unsupported (shooting off the mag or not).

I have said for years the best thing for the army rifleman would be a free float handguard, and a dedicated group of weapons trainers. Not just Drill's.

Sounds like the original problem is he used some support under the handguard for his zero. The worst would be one of those crappy bipod gangster grips for support on a non FF.



But if he counts the Marine Corps as one, he is right.

ETA: I understand how the poi would be affected, although through my yrs in the mil, it had little affect. I shot series high, and continued with a 5th award expert throughout my stint.
AMUshooter10  [Team Member]
11/4/2011 12:15:34 AM
Originally Posted By diaz_aa:
Originally Posted By AMUshooter10:
Originally Posted By KZ45:
I have not seen the mag resting taught at any firearms training institutes.

Although I haven't been to them all.


If you count the army as a firearms training institution than you are wrong.

If you take a non FF gun, ie any army rifle, and zero it at 25m with a cco or acog and shoot off of the sandbag or chipped rubber blocks.. you are in for an education when you shoot without that block or bag under the hand guard. There will be as much as a 4 ft. change of impact at just 200m if you put good head pressure on your supported position on the zero range. (25m) And then go to unsupported (shooting off the mag or not).

I have said for years the best thing for the army rifleman would be a free float handguard, and a dedicated group of weapons trainers. Not just Drill's.

Sounds like the original problem is he used some support under the handguard for his zero. The worst would be one of those crappy bipod gangster grips for support on a non FF.



But if he counts the Marine Corps as one, he is right.

ETA: I understand how the poi would be affected, although through my yrs in the mil, it had little affect. I shot series high, and continued with a 5th award expert throughout my stint.


It has little effect b/c you guys shoot on a KD range with Iron sights that track with the barrel on a very antiquated qual system that includes GINORMOUS targets. 1903 Camp Perry comes to mind. LOL

Like Doc Bach says, I have a feeling this guy is shooting an optic on the receiver that does not track with the barrel.

As for you, the marine corp does indeed teach to shoot off of the magazine for support. MCRP 3-01A chapter 6 I believe. They just told you not to so the qual would have a slight degree of difficulty in the hour it takes to shoot it.



Glockfan  [Team Member]
11/4/2011 3:58:19 AM
The best way to shoot prone without a bi pod is to use the mag as a mono pod. Never had an issue doing that nor has it changed my point of aim. the benefit is its way faster and more accurate than traditional prone. You don't see three gun shooters using traditional prone they mono pod it. timer and targets don't lie.
Pat
Bub0214  [Member]
11/4/2011 2:20:13 PM
I'm the dude that originallly posted this question. I was out this past Tuesday experimenting with different different shooting positions. Most of my problem seems to have come from having the sling wrapped tight and my support hand holding the front of the handguard creating a bipod of sort with my magazine and support elbow. My best shooting was mag on ground and support hand holding front of mag well (not touching the handguard) or just stablizing handgaurd lightly with support hand. This leads me to believe that despite what some say a free float handguard may be a worthwhile investment even on a combat style rifle. I want to thank everyone for their responses.
FrankSL  [Team Member]
11/4/2011 2:51:33 PM
Ethan Johns at SWAT Magazine has a high speed day job and is a big fan of magazine monopod. I've seen him shoot and he's no joke.
M4A1  [Team Member]
11/4/2011 2:57:48 PM
Originally Posted By Augee:
Originally Posted By RickyRecon:
Originally Posted By 1-75Ranger:
Shooting off the magazine is a sound technique, sounds like you need to work on other fundamentals in your shooting. Nothing that takes much work and should be able to correct easy.

Work on your trigger reset and your head position


Your magazine is for holding and feeding ammunition, not resting the rifle.

OP should learn to use a sling like a man.


My my my, aren't we fortunate to be in the presence of such a manly shooter, aint we guys?

I guess the rest of us girly men will have to settle for using whatever support makes itself available to get a stable shooting position for putting accurate rounds down range, even if its the magazine.

OP, as others have stated, it sounds like you're changing something else when you shoot prone that's independent of using the magazine as a rest. Try to eliminate as many variables as possible and see what's going on, though it sounds like you're getting a different sight picture when in prone.

What position are you zeroing from? What sights are you using?

Gosh I wish I was manly enough to use a 1907 sling when I'm on patrols.

~Augee


Mounger  [Member]
11/4/2011 3:52:14 PM
Originally Posted By Bub0214:
I'm the dude that originallly posted this question. I was out this past Tuesday experimenting with different different shooting positions. Most of my problem seems to have come from having the sling wrapped tight and my support hand holding the front of the handguard creating a bipod of sort with my magazine and support elbow. My best shooting was mag on ground and support hand holding front of mag well (not touching the handguard) or just stablizing handgaurd lightly with support hand. This leads me to believe that despite what some say a free float handguard may be a worthwhile investment even on a combat style rifle. I want to thank everyone for their responses.


Good job OP! Thanks for the feed back!
Usagi  [Member]
11/4/2011 5:01:37 PM
Slings are for competition, casual marksmanship, or the USMC KD course of fire.

Resting the rifle on the mag, a monopod, or a bipod (or anything else one can come across) is for real-world combat applications.

These statements are in line with what is taught in the USMC, as per this document.
Can't think of a single combat group with more collective live combat with small arms than the USMC. Maybe the US Army, but their doctrine on shooting is substantially similar with respect to how to rest the rifle in combat.


Also, of specific note in that USMC document, is the following statement in section 1002:
There are many factors that affect the application of marksmanship in combat. The more common
of these are:
...
c. The nature of the target, irregularities of terrain and vegetation will generally require a rifleman
to use a position other than prone in order to fire effectively on the target.
...


So I'd say once you get your marksmanship basics ironed out in prone, get back to training from standing. It is the most practical and likely of the positions.


ETA: Clarification
AK_Zeke  [Team Member]
11/4/2011 6:11:01 PM
As stated above a good supported firing position is key to good marksmanship.

That being said and understood, it stands to reason that if you trying to rest you magazine on the ground, this is going to affect not only the way you hold your weapon, but it can also be disruptive to your point of aim and the point of impactof your rounds.

Have you conidered using 20-round magazines when shooting prone. They are a good bit shorter and will not hit the ground when shooting from a proper position. If you're only taget shooting, then they are the way to go. If, you practicing for SHTF or similar type scenario, then I recommend following some of the great tips listed above and finding a good supported position that will keep your magazine out of the dirt.

I read somewhere in this board that a lot of the guys doing long range shooting (such as a sniper does) will use the 20-round magazines just for the very reason I stated above. You can pick up some GREAT 20 rounders for next to nothing, These were purchased for $5 each...



See this link/post concerning these magazines: ===> http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_17/551630_Most_Recent_Score.html
Glockfan  [Team Member]
11/4/2011 6:49:40 PM
Again using the mag helps not hurts zeke. 20 round mags should only be used when you must get as low to the ground as possible while still using the magazine as a rest.
pat
Dejavu  [Team Member]
11/4/2011 6:53:21 PM
Originally Posted By KZ45:
I have not seen the mag resting taught at any firearms training institutes.

Although I haven't been to them all.


Squad Designated Marksmanship school, Taught by the Army Marksmanship Program has soldier shoot off the mag at distances of 600 yards with irons....
diaz_aa  [Team Member]
11/4/2011 7:13:16 PM
Originally Posted By AMUshooter10:
Originally Posted By diaz_aa:
Originally Posted By AMUshooter10:
Originally Posted By KZ45:
I have not seen the mag resting taught at any firearms training institutes.

Although I haven't been to them all.


If you count the army as a firearms training institution than you are wrong.

If you take a non FF gun, ie any army rifle, and zero it at 25m with a cco or acog and shoot off of the sandbag or chipped rubber blocks.. you are in for an education when you shoot without that block or bag under the hand guard. There will be as much as a 4 ft. change of impact at just 200m if you put good head pressure on your supported position on the zero range. (25m) And then go to unsupported (shooting off the mag or not).

I have said for years the best thing for the army rifleman would be a free float handguard, and a dedicated group of weapons trainers. Not just Drill's.

Sounds like the original problem is he used some support under the handguard for his zero. The worst would be one of those crappy bipod gangster grips for support on a non FF.



But if he counts the Marine Corps as one, he is right.

ETA: I understand how the poi would be affected, although through my yrs in the mil, it had little affect. I shot series high, and continued with a 5th award expert throughout my stint.


It has little effect b/c you guys shoot on a KD range with Iron sights that track with the barrel on a very antiquated qual system that includes GINORMOUS targets. 1903 Camp Perry comes to mind. LOL

Like Doc Bach says, I have a feeling this guy is shooting an optic on the receiver that does not track with the barrel.

As for you, the marine corp does indeed teach to shoot off of the magazine for support. MCRP 3-01A chapter 6 I believe. They just told you not to so the qual would have a slight degree of difficulty in the hour it takes to shoot it.





Hour? That shit took all day!! You are correct though, "(7) Resting the Magazine. The bottom, front, or side of the rifle magazine can rest on or
against support to provide additional stability (see figures 6-13, 6-14, and 6-15). However,
the back of the magazine should not be pulled back against support because it can cause a
stoppage by not allowing a round to feed from the magazine. "
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