AR15.Com Archives
 Carbine-length vs Mid-length gas system on a 14.5" barrel
VFlight  [Member]
3/31/2011 11:09:54 PM
I assumed that a carbine length gas system would be best for an AR with a 14.5"-14.7" barrel since that is what the military setup is on the M4. However I noticed that all the 14.5" barrel carbines that Noveske sells have mid-length gas systems. So what do you think would be better for a ~14.5-in. barrel AR? Would a mid-length give enough force to cycle lower-powered ammo like Wolf? Which would be more reliable overall?

edit: added poll
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Combat_Jack  [Team Member]
3/31/2011 11:16:14 PM
14.5 mid isn't much good for Wolf bit it's becoming very popular anyway. Mine arrives on the sixth.
MikefromTX  [Member]
3/31/2011 11:21:53 PM
My Spikes 14.5 middy shoots flawlessly, but I'll admit i don't do Wolf.

As it is, it ejects to about 2:00 with a carbine buffer and a little farther forward with the Spikes ST-T2, so maybe the gas impulse is a little lighter than in a standard carbine.

.
.
kzx87  [Team Member]
3/31/2011 11:23:24 PM
i just built a 14.5" midlength and it short strokes on wolf, but that's underpowered crap ammo, so it's not really the gun.

on the real 5.56 stuff, it cycles like a champ and pretty soft shooting even on multiple strings of fire.
4schitzangiggles  [Team Member]
3/31/2011 11:52:23 PM
There is a video BCM did showing the difference in controllability of the 14.5" with the mid length gas system vs the M4 carbine length. amazing is all I have to say.
14.5 middy vs carbine scroll to bottom of the page.
FMJ  [Team Member]
3/31/2011 11:58:21 PM
Originally Posted By 4schitzangiggles:
There is a video BCM did showing the difference in controllability of the 14.5" with the mid length gas system vs the M4 carbine length. amazing is all I have to say.
14.5 middy vs carbine scroll to bottom of the page.

why no brake on m4
balloo93  [Team Member]
4/1/2011 2:14:43 AM
I have a 14.5" midlength gass upper and it shoots the low powered stuff fine. Wolf, Tula, Monarch without any issues.
ziarifleman  [Team Member]
4/1/2011 2:21:23 AM

Originally Posted By FMJ:
Originally Posted By 4schitzangiggles:
There is a video BCM did showing the difference in controllability of the 14.5" with the mid length gas system vs the M4 carbine length. amazing is all I have to say.
14.5 middy vs carbine scroll to bottom of the page.

why no brake on m4

That wasn't really an apples to apples test. Brakes make a difference.

But midlengths are better.
AchNgnt  [Team Member]
4/1/2011 2:36:55 AM
Originally Posted By FMJ:
Originally Posted By 4schitzangiggles:
There is a video BCM did showing the difference in controllability of the 14.5" with the mid length gas system vs the M4 carbine length. amazing is all I have to say.
14.5 middy vs carbine scroll to bottom of the page.

why no brake on m4


A brake wouldn't affect the rate of fire.
ARonly  [Member]
4/1/2011 2:53:26 AM
so what about semi automatic.
AchNgnt  [Team Member]
4/1/2011 3:19:38 AM
Originally Posted By ARonly:
so what about semi automatic.


What about it? The speed of the carrier flying rearward after the shot is the same whether you're shooting 10 rounds per minute or 900.
FMJ  [Team Member]
4/1/2011 3:24:40 AM
Brake keeps barrel down
more rds on target

Video didnt prove anything

The operator could hold the carbines different.
To many factors

I do like BCM
ARonly  [Member]
4/1/2011 3:50:47 AM
Originally Posted By AchNgnt:
Originally Posted By ARonly:
so what about semi automatic.


What about it? The speed of the carrier flying rearward after the shot is the same whether you're shooting 10 rounds per minute or 900.


so basicly with a middy the BCG is flying back slower and thats it, which i understand is probably better for the life of parts and of course better for getting on target faster< which is the key!

But if you wanted to use a middy with a lightweight bcg and LW buffer to speed things up and lighten things you have to have an adjustable gas block to bump up with gas system to make it back to the same pressure of a carbine gas ?

esq1995  [Member]
4/1/2011 9:43:37 AM
I have a 14.5 Saber middy put together by PK Firearms. It runs with everything. Wolf, Silver Bear, brass (.223 and 5.56), etc. Extended A2 to make it 16 and FA bolt carrier. Soft shooting and 100% reliable to date.
cmcflex  [Team Member]
4/1/2011 10:01:03 AM
Originally Posted By FMJ:
Brake keeps barrel down
more rds on target

Video didnt prove anything

The operator could hold the carbines different.
To many factors

I do like BCM


+1
Fields_Overseer  [Member]
4/1/2011 11:11:51 AM
Originally Posted By ARonly:
Originally Posted By AchNgnt:
Originally Posted By ARonly:
so what about semi automatic.


What about it? The speed of the carrier flying rearward after the shot is the same whether you're shooting 10 rounds per minute or 900.


so basicly with a middy the BCG is flying back slower and thats it, which i understand is probably better for the life of parts and of course better for getting on target faster< which is the key!

But if you wanted to use a middy with a lightweight bcg and LW buffer to speed things up and lighten things you have to have an adjustable gas block to bump up with gas system to make it back to the same pressure of a carbine gas ?



dont do lightweight on a combat gun. More mass = more inertia= increased reliability. For a gamming rifle its fine, but not for a serious-use rifle IMO.

If your main rifle diet will be wolf, Id go with the carbine gas. If your ussing 193clones all the time, go middy.
tatsngats  [Member]
4/1/2011 12:16:02 PM
I have a 14.5" mid-length Noveske with an H buffer and have run Wolf throught it with no problems. Just my experience.
AchNgnt  [Team Member]
4/1/2011 12:50:18 PM
Originally Posted By Fields_Overseer:
Originally Posted By ARonly:
Originally Posted By AchNgnt:
Originally Posted By ARonly:
so what about semi automatic.


What about it? The speed of the carrier flying rearward after the shot is the same whether you're shooting 10 rounds per minute or 900.


so basicly with a middy the BCG is flying back slower and thats it, which i understand is probably better for the life of parts and of course better for getting on target faster< which is the key!

But if you wanted to use a middy with a lightweight bcg and LW buffer to speed things up and lighten things you have to have an adjustable gas block to bump up with gas system to make it back to the same pressure of a carbine gas ?



dont do lightweight on a combat gun. More mass = more inertia= increased reliability. For a gamming rifle its fine, but not for a serious-use rifle IMO.

If your main rifle diet will be wolf, Id go with the carbine gas. If your ussing 193clones all the time, go middy.


Exactly. Middys are softer on the internal parts and wear less (this is debatable to some, but common sense says yes)

however if you are going to be shooting mild .223, especially steel cased russian stuff a carbine length gas system is a bit better. You could get by with a 16" Midlength but I wouldnt take a chance with a 14.5" midlength if all I planned on shooting was wolf.
FunYun1983  [Team Member]
4/1/2011 1:30:38 PM
No problem with wolf in my 14.5 mid.
jaqufrost  [Team Member]
4/1/2011 1:35:29 PM
I have run Wolf in my 14.5 Middy with an H3 buffer installed. No issues so far.
50cal  [Team Member]
4/1/2011 4:11:25 PM
I have a CMMG 14.5" midlength with perm attached Phantom. Runs great on my 77g reloads. It has the 1-7" twist.
I shoot it more than either of my M4geries now or my A2. Thinking of changing over one of the M4geries to midlength.
M4A1  [Team Member]
4/2/2011 6:46:37 PM
Originally Posted By VFlight:
I assumed that a carbine length gas system would be best for an AR with a 14.5"-14.7" barrel since that is what the military setup is on the M4. However I noticed that all the 14.5" barrel carbines that Noveske sells have mid-length gas systems. So what do you think would be better for a ~14.5-in. barrel AR? Would a mid-length give enough force to cycle lower-powered ammo like Wolf? Which would be more reliable overall?

edit: added poll


Where did you get that info? Your post is 100% wrong.
Noveske sells both carbine AND mid length 14.5 inch barrels..
You can't have a 14.5 inch carbine with a mid length gas system. It's either a carbine or midlength gas system, you can't have both on the same barrel.
Noveske sells 14.5 inch carbine barrels in chrome lined OR 16 inch mid length in chrome lined.
If you want a 14.5 inch mid length, you would have to go with a stainless steel barrel.
(for Noveske)
So if Noveske is what you are after, first decide whether you want a hammer forged/chrome lined barrel or a stainless steel barrel.
For example: if you want a hammer forged, you choices are either 14.5 inch carbine or 16 inch mid length......14.5 inch mid length would not even be an option for you (for hammer forged/chrome lined).
VFlight  [Member]
4/2/2011 7:45:58 PM
Originally Posted By M4A1:
Originally Posted By VFlight:
I assumed that a carbine length gas system would be best for an AR with a 14.5"-14.7" barrel since that is what the military setup is on the M4. However I noticed that all the 14.5" barrel carbines that Noveske sells have mid-length gas systems. So what do you think would be better for a ~14.5-in. barrel AR? Would a mid-length give enough force to cycle lower-powered ammo like Wolf? Which would be more reliable overall?

edit: added poll


Where did you get that info? Your post is 100% wrong.
Noveske sells both carbine AND mid length 14.5 inch barrels..
You can't have a 14.5 inch carbine with a mid length gas system. It's either a carbine or midlength gas system, you can't have both on the same barrel.
Noveske sells 14.5 inch carbine barrels in chrome lined OR 16 inch mid length in chrome lined.
If you want a 14.5 inch mid length, you would have to go with a stainless steel barrel.
(for Noveske)
So if Noveske is what you are after, first decide whether you want a hammer forged/chrome lined barrel or a stainless steel barrel.
For example: if you want a hammer forged, you choices are either 14.5 inch carbine or 16 inch mid length......14.5 inch mid length would not even be an option for you (for hammer forged/chrome lined).


I think you misread something there.

http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?cat=137

http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?cat=122

All Noveske rifles/uppers with 14.5" barrels (both S.S. & chrome-lined HF) listed at their site have mid-length gas systems. Check above.

Please read more carefully & check your info before claiming something is "100% wrong."
JakeMetzger  [Member]
4/2/2011 8:06:17 PM
I have a pair of BCM 14.5" mids (chromelined) and a Noveske Afghan that all eat junk russian ammo with no issues. My only carbines are a 10.5 AR pistol and an 11.5" SBR. They also run fine on junk russian ammo. I don't buy a lot of steel cased stuff anymore.
M4A1  [Team Member]
4/2/2011 8:45:33 PM
Originally Posted By VFlight:
Originally Posted By M4A1:
Originally Posted By VFlight:
I assumed that a carbine length gas system would be best for an AR with a 14.5"-14.7" barrel since that is what the military setup is on the M4. However I noticed that all the 14.5" barrel carbines that Noveske sells have mid-length gas systems. So what do you think would be better for a ~14.5-in. barrel AR? Would a mid-length give enough force to cycle lower-powered ammo like Wolf? Which would be more reliable overall?

edit: added poll


Where did you get that info? Your post is 100% wrong.
Noveske sells both carbine AND mid length 14.5 inch barrels..
You can't have a 14.5 inch carbine with a mid length gas system. It's either a carbine or midlength gas system, you can't have both on the same barrel.
Noveske sells 14.5 inch carbine barrels in chrome lined OR 16 inch mid length in chrome lined.
If you want a 14.5 inch mid length, you would have to go with a stainless steel barrel.
(for Noveske)
So if Noveske is what you are after, first decide whether you want a hammer forged/chrome lined barrel or a stainless steel barrel.
For example: if you want a hammer forged, you choices are either 14.5 inch carbine or 16 inch mid length......14.5 inch mid length would not even be an option for you (for hammer forged/chrome lined).


I think you misread something there.

http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?cat=137

http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?cat=122

All Noveske rifles/uppers with 14.5" barrels (both S.S. & chrome-lined HF) listed at their site have mid-length gas systems. Check above.

Please read more carefully & check your info before claiming something is "100% wrong."


I don't need to check anything Pal cause I actually own what you are inquiring about. There must be a typo on that page. I have a 14.5 Noveske light carbine FSR, and it's a carbine length gas system.. You can't call a rifle a "carbine" and have a midlength gas system. Because it is no longer a carbine at that point, it would be a "mid length". Noveske calls it the Recce.
Just trying to help you out, take it as you will.
****edit*** Actually, judging from the pictures it looks like Noveske extended the gas block on their "carbine". So I guess they need to rename it. My FSR is from last year. And it's is a true carbine.


VFlight  [Member]
4/2/2011 10:10:53 PM
Originally Posted By M4A1:

****edit*** Actually, judging from the pictures it looks like Noveske extended the gas block on their "carbine". So I guess they need to rename it. My FSR is from last year. And it's is a true carbine.



I'll leave you to take your argument over to Noveske, etc. regarding what is and is not a "True Carbine."

I did not say Noveske never sold 14.5" ARs with carbine-length gas systems.

Please don't post unless you're contributing to the topic.

Stay cool, Bro.






I don't need to check anything Pal cause I actually own what you are inquiring about. There must be a typo on that page. I have a 14.5 Noveske light carbine FSR, and it's a carbine length gas system.. You can't call a rifle a "carbine" and have a midlength gas system. Because it is no longer a carbine at that point, it would be a "mid length". Noveske calls it the Recce.

Combat_Jack  [Team Member]
4/2/2011 10:12:57 PM
A carbine is a short rifle. The fact that one gas system length is referred to as a "carbine" port is incidental.
Grrrr  [Member]
4/2/2011 10:36:06 PM
Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
A carbine is a short rifle. The fact that one gas system length is referred to as a "carbine" port is incidental.


True.... But technically it doesn't even have to be short. Just shorter than the rifle version of "same rifle". Carbine is just a generic term.
js308  [Member]
4/2/2011 11:03:23 PM
Originally Posted By VFlight:
[quote]Originally Posted By M4A1:
****edit*** Actually, judging from the pictures it looks like Noveske extended the gas block on their "carbine". So I guess they need to rename it. My FSR is from last year. And it's is a true carbine.

I'll leave you to take your argument over to Noveske, etc. regarding what is and is not a "True Carbine."
I did not say Noveske never sold 14.5" ARs with carbine-length gas systems.
Please don't post unless you're contributing to the topic.
Stay cool, Bro.

[quote]

Actually M4A1 is right, the above would have been correct last year. And that was Noveske's set up for years. They just recently changed the gas systems.


AchNgnt  [Team Member]
4/2/2011 11:19:37 PM
Originally Posted By js308:
Originally Posted By VFlight:
[quote]Originally Posted By M4A1:
****edit*** Actually, judging from the pictures it looks like Noveske extended the gas block on their "carbine". So I guess they need to rename it. My FSR is from last year. And it's is a true carbine.

I'll leave you to take your argument over to Noveske, etc. regarding what is and is not a "True Carbine."
I did not say Noveske never sold 14.5" ARs with carbine-length gas systems.
Please don't post unless you're contributing to the topic.
Stay cool, Bro.

[quote]

Actually M4A1 is right, the above would have been correct last year. And that was Noveske's set up for years. They just recently changed the gas systems.




Exactly, Todd stated that originally they sold to too many law enforcement agencies that wanted an M4 Carbine profile AR. He said most of his orders are know a bit more knowledgable about the platform and he can go with the original plan which was a 14.5" midlength all along.
4schitzangiggles  [Team Member]
4/2/2011 11:51:25 PM
Originally Posted By M4A1:
Originally Posted By VFlight:
Originally Posted By M4A1:
Originally Posted By VFlight:
I assumed that a carbine length gas system would be best for an AR with a 14.5"-14.7" barrel since that is what the military setup is on the M4. However I noticed that all the 14.5" barrel carbines that Noveske sells have mid-length gas systems. So what do you think would be better for a ~14.5-in. barrel AR? Would a mid-length give enough force to cycle lower-powered ammo like Wolf? Which would be more reliable overall?

edit: added poll


Where did you get that info? Your post is 100% wrong.
Noveske sells both carbine AND mid length 14.5 inch barrels..
You can't have a 14.5 inch carbine with a mid length gas system. It's either a carbine or midlength gas system, you can't have both on the same barrel.
Noveske sells 14.5 inch carbine barrels in chrome lined OR 16 inch mid length in chrome lined.
If you want a 14.5 inch mid length, you would have to go with a stainless steel barrel.
(for Noveske)
So if Noveske is what you are after, first decide whether you want a hammer forged/chrome lined barrel or a stainless steel barrel.
For example: if you want a hammer forged, you choices are either 14.5 inch carbine or 16 inch mid length......14.5 inch mid length would not even be an option for you (for hammer forged/chrome lined).


I think you misread something there.

http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?cat=137

http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?cat=122

All Noveske rifles/uppers with 14.5" barrels (both S.S. & chrome-lined HF) listed at their site have mid-length gas systems. Check above.

Please read more carefully & check your info before claiming something is "100% wrong."


I don't need to check anything Pal cause I actually own what you are inquiring about. There must be a typo on that page. I have a 14.5 Noveske light carbine FSR, and it's a carbine length gas system.. You can't call a rifle a "carbine" and have a midlength gas system. Because it is no longer a carbine at that point, it would be a "mid length". Noveske calls it the Recce.
Just trying to help you out, take it as you will.
****edit*** Actually, judging from the pictures it looks like Noveske extended the gas block on their "carbine". So I guess they need to rename it. My FSR is from last year. And it's is a true carbine.
<a href="http://img860.imageshack.us/i/dsc01697y.jpg/" target="_blank">http://img860.imageshack.us/img860/9452/dsc01697y.jpg</a>



Wind your neck in and learn what you are espousing as "gospel" before you start attempting to tell others they are wrong.
Mid-length is simply a quick definition of where the gas port is located, hence the term "Mid-length Carbine".
js308  [Member]
4/3/2011 12:48:20 AM
Originally Posted By 4schitzangiggles:
[quote]


Wind your neck in and learn what you are espousing as "gospel" before you start attempting to tell others they are wrong.
Mid-length is simply a quick definition of where the gas port is located, hence the term "Mid-length Carbine".



So what you are saying is basically what M4a1 was saying above. Gas port placement. The Mid length gas port is further out than a carbine, giving it a longer gas system, and a carbine a shorter gas system. So what have you added to this thread?

SYSTEM MESSAGE  
4/3/2011 8:23:35 AM
No longer technical. Just bickering.
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