AR15.Com Archives
 Bushmaster Carbon 15 Guarantee = Worthless
larphred  [Member]
2/19/2004 6:25:56 AM EDT
We purchased two Professional Ordinance Carbon 15 carbines and one pistol several years ago. This last year, in a period of about 8 months, all three weapons came apart. The carbines came apart where the receiver meets the stock. One fell apart as my friend was firing it. The pistol came apart where the buffer tube screws into the receiver. Then we heard that Bushmaster was taking care of warantee work on P.O. products. We contacted Bushmaster and were told to mail in the weapons. After several months of waiting, the customer service rep. said that they couldn't repair the weapons and were returning them. He said that their attorneys were considering some compensation for owners of defunct P.O. weapons. This a.m. I called again and the decision had been made to make us no special offer and hope we go away. They washed their hands of the whole guarantee claim. I am realistic enough to realize that Bushmaster might not feel responsible for shortcomings of Professional Ordinance workmanship, but why make the offer in the first place?
For those of you who own P.O. Carbon 15s, please be careful. We were lucky there were no major injuries--you may not be so lucky.
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die-tryin  [Team Member]
2/19/2004 7:31:28 AM EDT
Yip, ya aint telling nuttin most didnt already know. Dunno if the Bushmaster version is any better, id rather build a real AR lightweight.
bvmjethead  [Team Member]
2/19/2004 7:34:48 AM EDT
You really ought to rethink your thread title. You state in your post that these weapons were purchased from P.O. and yet your thread title claims that Bushmaster's Carbon 15 guarantee is worthless. This is not at all the case.
jimtash9  [Member]
2/19/2004 7:57:09 AM EDT
Your weapons say Professional Ordinance on them, not Bushmaster. Bushmaster didn't sell these then and as such, really has no responsibility to honor the warranty. I'd call them up again and ask real nicely if they could help you out a little to repair them or offer you a discount on the purchase of a new one. I had no problems dealing with them when I wasn't pleased with my Mini-Y brake and they offered to exchange out the barrel with one that had the AK brake on it. They even upgraded it to a heavy barrel from a standard one.
Avalon01  [Team Member]
2/19/2004 8:04:34 AM EDT
If Bushmaster didn't make the weapon, WTF should they fix it? You are lucky they even LOOKED at it. Your thread title is misleading, BTW. Av.
Omaha-BeenGlockin  [Member]
2/19/2004 8:06:32 AM EDT
P.O. is missing the all important 3rd letter--"S"----there you have it----- P.O.S.. Not Bushmaster's problem in any way----just be glad they were talking about compensating you. Sheeeesh.
ar-wrench  [Member]
2/19/2004 8:11:31 AM EDT
Bushmaster bought Professional Ordinance. When a company buys another company, they get the assets and LIABILITIES. Future product warranties are liabilities, just like outstanding debts. These guns were defective in design and manufacture, and Bushmaster knew this as is evidenced by their changing the product before they put their name on them. But, they bought the company anyway. Bushmaster is throwing their weight around against the little guy for now, afterall, how many rifle owners have lawyers on retainer like Bushmaster does? Now, if enough affected owners get together (with possibly some personal injury claims to sweeten the pot) and get this elevated to class action status, Bushmaster will loose, because it will not be just one guy having to pay his lawyer to fight the Bushie law team. Those plastic guns look like paintball guns to me, seems like they hold up like paintball guns too.
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jasondcrum  [Member]
2/19/2004 8:35:05 AM EDT
What I'd like to know is what Bushmaster has done to improve the P.O. Carbon-15? I haven't studied the BM rifles closely yet but they sure don't have any noticable changes made on the exterior. The P.O. gun are shit and I would assume the BM are too. If that last statement holds true (BM has done nothing to significantly improve the rifle design besides put 'Coiley the Snake' on the side) then BM should be responsible for P.O. warranty work. J
jadams951  [Team Member]
2/19/2004 8:59:00 AM EDT
Looks like the original poster here just got kicked in the balls!
bushmaster  [Industry Partner]
2/19/2004 9:31:03 AM EDT
To All,
He said that their attorneys were considering some compensation for owners of defunct P.O. weapons.
What we actually said was we would look at some sort of discount on a new product, and we were checking with our attourneys on making something to the with the old PO name on it. Bushmaster bought the [b]assets[/b] of the company from a [b]Bankruptcy Court[/b]. Basically all we bought was the manufacturing equipment & design. We have no [b]liability[/b] on the Professional Ordnance Product, although companies who dealt with them wish we did. Bushmaster has taken care of hundreds of these old products already & will continue to do so, the only thing we cannot take care of is the receivers. Bushmaster has changed the product to interchange with our regular product line, thus making the uppers & lowers to the mil spec dim. We did not get any old receivers in the transaction, and if we did this would have been taken care of immediately. We are repairing old PO products, and helping people out the best we can. Remember, Bushmaster is in no way obligated to do any warrantee work on these products, but we do, because we want the old P.O. family to join our Bushmaster family. Below are the changes Bushmaster has made to the product: Bushmaster has changed the design and parts used to build the new Carbon 15 rifles and pistols. They now have 5.56mm chambers rather than the tighter chambers used before which helps with the extraction problems that were experienced before. The gas ports have been changed as they were oversized causing the systems to run too hard leading to cycling problems and had too much felt recoil. Buffer recoil pad has been changed so the pads do not come off under fire causing cycling problems. The old barrel extensions would not allow the use of an AR15 bolt. They now use standard AR15 bolts and barrel extensions as they were producing bolts and extractors out of the wrong material which was prone to breakage. The lower receiver parts are now Bushmaster AR15 parts which are of a better quality than the aftermarket parts that were being used. The upper and lower receivers will now interchange with AR15 receivers so there are more options available to shooters. It does require that the same bolt carrier and buffer system used with the lower receivers be used if interchanging upper or lower receivers. For example if you place an AR15 barreled upper on a Carbon 15 lower you must use the shorter bolt carrier and buffer system. If you place a Carbon 15 barreled upper on an AR15 lower you must use the AR15 bolt carrier. Due to Federal Firearms Laws rifle uppers can not be installed on pistol lower receivers and pistol uppers can not be installed on rifle lower receivers. Other upgrades and options are on the drawing board and will be announced when they are available.
SNorman  [Member]
2/19/2004 9:31:52 AM EDT
I thought Bushmaster claimed they would handle the PO warranties, so in that case yes it is Bushmaster's responsibility. In the whole scope of things though, just admit you bought a POS and get something new.
larphred  [Member]
2/19/2004 10:25:41 AM EDT
For those of you asking why Bushmaster should be responsible for weapons built by P.O.--simply because they said they would be. They stated that they were covering warantee work on the P.O. Carbon-15s and I merely took them at their word. After sending them in last fall and waiting for several months to hear that they would not be repaired or replaced, but that they were working out the details of a possible discount for owners of broken Carbon-15s. After waiting several more months, I was told that they had decided that could do nothing for me. Put yourself in my shoes. Wouldn't you honestly be a bit angry?
David_Hineline  [Team Member]
2/19/2004 10:30:03 AM EDT
One mistake in your quoted law. It if perfectly fine to convert a pistol into a rifle and back again. There are many examples of this in the industry. Also pistol uppers can go onto a Short Rifle registered weapon with the ATF, under the NFA rules.
pulpsmack  [Member]
2/19/2004 12:20:55 PM EDT
I understand your frustration as you had higher hopes once Bushmaster accepted the weapons & appeared as if they'd do something about it. It is certainly a dissappointment, but If they chose to fix the equipment they'd be a bunch of really swell guys. If they decided not to, well they have the right to do so. I suspect that they wanted to see them in order to determine if a cheap fix could be made in order to satisfy you. They likely determined a cheap fix could not be made & excercised their right not to spend $$$ fixing PO's mistake. My advice to you... [s]Write a polite letter to the customer service representative explaining that you understand the position that Bushmaster is in. Then ask them if they would be willing to make some concession for your sake, say a deal on a new purchase or something. If you are courteous & sincere you might stand a chance at least to gain [i]something[/i]. Right along side with this advice, I [u]strongly[/u] recommend you change the title since it is erronius (if not libelous) and will harm your chances of my advice working should your post be discovered.[/s] Edit: too late your thread title screwed the pooch for concessions since Bushmaster responded above (guess I missed that)
larphred  [Member]
2/19/2004 12:38:24 PM EDT
Pulp..... Thanks for that advice. I have been dealing with a great customer service named Leon at Bushmaster. He has been great to work with and has tried to help to the best of his abilities. We've spoken numerous times over the past few months. I told him this a.m. that I appreciated all his help, but the decision came from on high, therefore I was already screwed.
ar-wrench  [Member]
2/19/2004 5:27:46 PM EDT
I thought I read here that Bushnaster bought out P.O. If all they did was buy tooling and blueprints from the bankruptcy sale, then they do not owe P.O. owners anything: My Bad, I did not understand how Bushmaster came to the carbon/plastic building business. It is gracious of them to try to help orphaned owners, but it gets tricky when they have to replace a receiver. When a company goes chapter 7, it always screws the little guy, customers, employees, and vendors. The suits and lawyers always make out like bandits with their well crafted golden parachutes. Please change the title of this thread, it is not accurate.
TURRICAN  [Member]
2/19/2004 6:14:11 PM EDT
It has been my experience that Bushmaster has the best customer service out there period. And I'm not just talking about the firearms industry. As a manufacturer they have always kept me coming back for more. It's hard to bitch about them. As far as the PO stuff goes, you had to know that was going to be risky. Stick to the regular shit.
model927  [Member]
2/19/2004 7:21:43 PM EDT
Evey one who knows ARs knew what was up with PO or sorry P.O.S rifles.When buying an AR stick with a mil -spec rifle from a reputable company and remember the most important of Bushmaster commandments...thou shalt not take strange ARs before true to the my opinion the best of the bunch the first time around.
squeezecockerp7m8  [Member]
2/19/2004 8:52:21 PM EDT
I just wonder why Bushmaster would want to buy the design for this thing. The new BAR10 looks like a promising design...a step in the right direction (a .308 that takes cheap mags). Why in the world would they want to be associated with something that is considered by almost everyone to be junk? It's sorta like Honda trying to buy the rights to the Ford Pinto. Kevin
gmtmaster  [Member]
2/19/2004 10:33:40 PM EDT
Let me mention a little something with regards to Bushmasters customer service... Its THE best out there... These guys have bent over backwards for me. My money stays with Bushmaster..
CavVet  [Team Member]
2/19/2004 10:50:51 PM EDT
I am surprised they even looked at it. It was out here awhile ago that they had no liability on the PO junk, as well as what a POS the PO was. I always wanted one, and am glad Bushy got the rights. Later this year, [;)], I plan to buy one.
fizassist  [Team Member]
3/3/2004 8:34:55 PM EDT
A clerk in a gun shop was showing me how a PO broke down, and the take down pin broke off in his hand! I hope Bushmaster does better with them...
eedetail  [Team Member]
3/4/2004 7:41:44 AM EDT
Folks, I've decided to sell the remains of my kaboomed carbon 15. It is on I decided not to pursue any warantee issues with Bushmaster. Someone asked why I felt Bushmaster should warantee any of this. Originally I did not think they were responsible at all. I am sure they feel the same way. However, they decided at some point to offer *Some* warantee work on them, which could probably bite them in the ass. They implied a warantee at that time. Hence, I considered having them warantee it. I think there are enough blown up carbon-15's that a class action would be easy to initiate. They could probably even attach the assets of the bankrupt company. In the end, we'd each get a certificate for $5 off a new Bushmaster, and the lawyers would get a few million each. Easier just to leave it lay. Again, any of you with the P.O. carbon 15's replace that bolt with a quality one before it breaks. I never figured it to break this way. TimE
eedetail  [Team Member]
3/4/2004 7:48:07 AM EDT
Bushmaster wrote: "Bushmaster bought the assets of the company from a Bankruptcy Court. Basically all we bought was the manufacturing equipment & design. We have no liability on the Professional Ordnance Product, although companies who dealt with them wish we did. " No, you also bought the manufacturing plant. Seems like the carbon 15 is still being made in the same location. Most likely you re-hired the employees too. Doesn't make you a bad company, that is really quite honorable. I think you have also improved the product quite a lot. (it needed it) TimE
SC-Texas  [Member]
3/4/2004 8:45:45 AM EDT
Bankruptcy means that all causes of action are gone! If bushmaster bought the rights to manufacturer the product and the manufacturing assets from the B/R court, they did not buy the liabilities and th warranty is a liability. Now, does it make good business sense to warranty the POs guns? Damn straight it does. That way folks will pass the word that carbon 15s are good, well built, reliable rifles. Otherwise, everyone who has a P.O.s rilfe or pistol will pass the word that they carbon based rifles don;t work and that Bushmaster is still making them. Will Bushmaster do this? Its a business decision on their part. I hope they do but they HAVE NO EGAL DUTY TO WARRANTY THE P.O. rifles and pistols. Just my .02 cents!
texashark  [Team Member]
3/4/2004 8:58:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By eedetail: and the lawyers would get a few million each.
And so there would be a happy ending ending to the story.
BOBK48  [Team Member]
3/4/2004 1:14:45 PM EDT
It's too bad your stuck with junk. But I agree with the others that Bushmaster isn't liable. It remains to be seen if the latest version now done by BM is any better than the original. It probably is better. Time will tell. For me I'll stick with the regular AR. BobK
BOBK48  [Team Member]
3/4/2004 1:15:15 PM EDT
It's too bad your stuck with junk. But I agree with the others that Bushmaster isn't liable. It remains to be seen if the latest version now done by BM is any better than the original. It probably is better. Time will tell. For me I'll stick with the regular AR. BobK
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