Archived Posts » 59,789,155
WHat perspectives does the "Improved AR180" has?
4/6/2010 3:24:28 PM
Well, I have been begging for the AR180C, so have the others, finally we have a response from Armalite. Now, will the new AR180C be an attractive buy? What kind of competition will it face?
If someone asks me: what rifles are out there that are 5.56x45 NATO, have chrome lined barrel and take AR15 mags, there is only ONE answer - Kel-Tec SU16 - a neat little rifle in its own right with about $600 price tag. Barrel is 1:9.
This is the competition that AR180B will face the most. By the same token it will also face competition from Saiga 223 and Gas Piston AR15s.
Saiga 223 quality has been gradually declining. Thinner barrels have been used in them lately. Overall quality and tolerances gotten worse. Price tag - $370.
AR15 gas pistons run generally in 1200 range. They have their own problems - carrier tilt. This has been reported with TWN armory gas piston retrofit and other companies as well.
AR180C has EVERY chance of being a successful rifle. However, few things must happen for this:
1) 1:9 barrel is no longer acceptable unless the rifle is 370 bucks saiga. Even those now have 1:8 and 1:7 barrels. SU16 barrel is 1:9 too.
2) Non chrome line barrel is non acceptable. Unless the barrel is nitride laced.
3) AR15 is now fully modular. With C-product magazines and swappable bolts, it can be altered to fire any caliber. Even 9mm or 45ACP. This must be taken into consideration as well, when new AR180C will be made.
The AR180 upper is pretty much a metal sheet bent in two places with groves and cut. Stamped and not machined, unlike AR15. Therefore CHEAPER to make. The whole purpose of AR180 was to be a CHEAPER alternative to AR15. DPMS makes a VERY good AR15 rifle for $850 MSRP (Panther Classic). For a little more it comes with chrome lined barrel.
Up until recently, there was no C-product mags, and AR15s had swappable uppers in different caliber. This must be taken into account again. Either have swappable uppers in different calibers, or have a way to change the barrel. If no such possibility exist, you are once again fall into the same general group as SU-16 and Saiga 223. Or Century Arms C-93 which now sells at $600 and is infinitely more reliable then many AR15s. So the price of AR180C must also be chosen correctly. With minimal machining used, it has potential to match the cost of SU16 (which is all molded injection, like Glock). IF Armalite can create a rifle out of AR180 that will beat SU16 in performance and features at the similar price - then AR180C will succeed. If not, then people will either buy a cheaper SU16 or add few more bucks to go for a gas piston AR15.
Basically, AR180 will have following competitors for the market: SU-16, Saiga 223, AR15 Gas piston and C-93. I have an AR180B on which Kurt Kustom Firearms have installed a 24" chrome lined bushmaster HBAR. The whole kit and kaboodle cost me $900.
AR180C, should have the abilities which will make customers choose AR180C over SU-16 (cheaper uses same mags, nice barrel, well made), Saiga223 (really cheap, but made cheaply, thin barrel).
Or it will have to contend with Gas Piston AR15s. Which are more expensive then Su16, are also MUCH more customizable and have abilities of caliber swap. Ideally AR180C will offer most of AR15 abilities at a price slightly higher then SU16.
CHROME LINED AR15 compatible barrel which is 1:8 or 1:7 is a MUST. Having swappable uppers in 7.62x39, 5.45x39, 6.8SPC, 6.5 grendell and other would be very desirable as well.
To be honest, I could not care less if it has pistol handle or not.
We need a tough realiable high capacity rifle with accuracy better then Saiga 223. Such rifle already exists: SU-16. If Armalite can build an AR180C that is better then SU-16 - it will succeed. If not, Armalite will be competing with a rifle that is cheaper for the same general niche.
If someone asks me: what rifles are out there that are 5.56x45 NATO, have chrome lined barrel and take AR15 mags, there is only ONE answer - Kel-Tec SU16 - a neat little rifle in its own right with about $600 price tag. Barrel is 1:9.
This is the competition that AR180B will face the most. By the same token it will also face competition from Saiga 223 and Gas Piston AR15s.
Saiga 223 quality has been gradually declining. Thinner barrels have been used in them lately. Overall quality and tolerances gotten worse. Price tag - $370.
AR15 gas pistons run generally in 1200 range. They have their own problems - carrier tilt. This has been reported with TWN armory gas piston retrofit and other companies as well.
AR180C has EVERY chance of being a successful rifle. However, few things must happen for this:
1) 1:9 barrel is no longer acceptable unless the rifle is 370 bucks saiga. Even those now have 1:8 and 1:7 barrels. SU16 barrel is 1:9 too.
2) Non chrome line barrel is non acceptable. Unless the barrel is nitride laced.
3) AR15 is now fully modular. With C-product magazines and swappable bolts, it can be altered to fire any caliber. Even 9mm or 45ACP. This must be taken into consideration as well, when new AR180C will be made.
The AR180 upper is pretty much a metal sheet bent in two places with groves and cut. Stamped and not machined, unlike AR15. Therefore CHEAPER to make. The whole purpose of AR180 was to be a CHEAPER alternative to AR15. DPMS makes a VERY good AR15 rifle for $850 MSRP (Panther Classic). For a little more it comes with chrome lined barrel.
Up until recently, there was no C-product mags, and AR15s had swappable uppers in different caliber. This must be taken into account again. Either have swappable uppers in different calibers, or have a way to change the barrel. If no such possibility exist, you are once again fall into the same general group as SU-16 and Saiga 223. Or Century Arms C-93 which now sells at $600 and is infinitely more reliable then many AR15s. So the price of AR180C must also be chosen correctly. With minimal machining used, it has potential to match the cost of SU16 (which is all molded injection, like Glock). IF Armalite can create a rifle out of AR180 that will beat SU16 in performance and features at the similar price - then AR180C will succeed. If not, then people will either buy a cheaper SU16 or add few more bucks to go for a gas piston AR15.
Basically, AR180 will have following competitors for the market: SU-16, Saiga 223, AR15 Gas piston and C-93. I have an AR180B on which Kurt Kustom Firearms have installed a 24" chrome lined bushmaster HBAR. The whole kit and kaboodle cost me $900.
AR180C, should have the abilities which will make customers choose AR180C over SU-16 (cheaper uses same mags, nice barrel, well made), Saiga223 (really cheap, but made cheaply, thin barrel).
Or it will have to contend with Gas Piston AR15s. Which are more expensive then Su16, are also MUCH more customizable and have abilities of caliber swap. Ideally AR180C will offer most of AR15 abilities at a price slightly higher then SU16.
CHROME LINED AR15 compatible barrel which is 1:8 or 1:7 is a MUST. Having swappable uppers in 7.62x39, 5.45x39, 6.8SPC, 6.5 grendell and other would be very desirable as well.
To be honest, I could not care less if it has pistol handle or not.
We need a tough realiable high capacity rifle with accuracy better then Saiga 223. Such rifle already exists: SU-16. If Armalite can build an AR180C that is better then SU-16 - it will succeed. If not, Armalite will be competing with a rifle that is cheaper for the same general niche.
4/6/2010 3:40:44 PM
Basic rifle, updated with some kind of an adjustable LOP stock along with functional optics mounting and a 1:8 twist barrel would be an excellent start. Nitrided chrome moly is fine with me, or chrome lined is also acceptable. 16.1" barrel length standard with original 18" length as an option.
Updated upper receiver design as another variant, preferably an aluminum pseudo-monolithic upper ala the Masada/ACR design with a continuous top rail (preferably at some already-existing height like 416 height) and polymer handguard which attaches to the top rail so creates a free floated barrel.
Updated lower needs an improved bolt hold open and preferably a 45° travel safety, and probably updated magwell contour to work with current mags. Most would probably want interchangable grips but I like the 18' grip just fine. Personally I don't care if it's polymer, actually prefer polymer, as long as it works and doesn't break.
Before it was neither fish nor fowl, because it wasn't close to an accurate reproduction yet wasn't really that updated either. There's probably a market for retro, but a much larger market for an updated, low cost solid functional carbine.
Updated upper receiver design as another variant, preferably an aluminum pseudo-monolithic upper ala the Masada/ACR design with a continuous top rail (preferably at some already-existing height like 416 height) and polymer handguard which attaches to the top rail so creates a free floated barrel.
Updated lower needs an improved bolt hold open and preferably a 45° travel safety, and probably updated magwell contour to work with current mags. Most would probably want interchangable grips but I like the 18' grip just fine. Personally I don't care if it's polymer, actually prefer polymer, as long as it works and doesn't break.
Before it was neither fish nor fowl, because it wasn't close to an accurate reproduction yet wasn't really that updated either. There's probably a market for retro, but a much larger market for an updated, low cost solid functional carbine.
4/6/2010 3:49:55 PM
Originally Posted By Gamma762:
Basic rifle, updated with some kind of an adjustable LOP stock along with functional optics mounting and a 1:8 twist barrel would be an excellent start. Nitrided chrome moly is fine with me, or chrome lined is also acceptable. 16.1" barrel length standard with original 18" length as an option.
Updated upper receiver design as another variant, preferably an aluminum pseudo-monolithic upper ala the Masada/ACR design with a continuous top rail (preferably at some already-existing height like 416 height) and polymer handguard which attaches to the top rail so creates a free floated barrel.
Updated lower needs an improved bolt hold open and preferably a 45° travel safety, and probably updated magwell contour to work with current mags. Most would probably want interchangable grips but I like the 18' grip just fine. Personally I don't care if it's polymer, actually prefer polymer, as long as it works and doesn't break.
Before it was neither fish nor fowl, because it wasn't close to an accurate reproduction yet wasn't really that updated either. There's probably a market for retro, but a much larger market for an updated, low cost solid functional carbine.
Basic rifle, updated with some kind of an adjustable LOP stock along with functional optics mounting and a 1:8 twist barrel would be an excellent start. Nitrided chrome moly is fine with me, or chrome lined is also acceptable. 16.1" barrel length standard with original 18" length as an option.
Updated upper receiver design as another variant, preferably an aluminum pseudo-monolithic upper ala the Masada/ACR design with a continuous top rail (preferably at some already-existing height like 416 height) and polymer handguard which attaches to the top rail so creates a free floated barrel.
Updated lower needs an improved bolt hold open and preferably a 45° travel safety, and probably updated magwell contour to work with current mags. Most would probably want interchangable grips but I like the 18' grip just fine. Personally I don't care if it's polymer, actually prefer polymer, as long as it works and doesn't break.
Before it was neither fish nor fowl, because it wasn't close to an accurate reproduction yet wasn't really that updated either. There's probably a market for retro, but a much larger market for an updated, low cost solid functional carbine.
Sounds good to me.
4/6/2010 3:53:55 PM
Weak side or switchable charging handle, something similar to the ARX160 perhaps, is also important.
Weak side charging handle manipulation is so integral to modern training and usage doctrine that anything without it is an anachronism.
Weak side charging handle manipulation is so integral to modern training and usage doctrine that anything without it is an anachronism.
4/6/2010 5:15:16 PM
I would be more than happy with an AR-180B with two updates, an chrome or nitrided barrel, and a folding stock. Those two mods should not drive the price up too much
4/20/2010 3:17:38 PM
Well, let's at least give them a chance to get it together and tell us the specs...........I would bet they have heard what we want, and I would guess the new rifle will have chrome lined barrels with 1:7 twists..........at least it will have a metal lower and folding stock
Originally Posted By Tigerclaw_x:
Well, I have been begging for the AR180C, so have the others, finally we have a response from Armalite. Now, will the new AR180C be an attractive buy? What kind of competition will it face?
If someone asks me: what rifles are out there that are 5.56x45 NATO, have chrome lined barrel and take AR15 mags, there is only ONE answer - Kel-Tec SU16 - a neat little rifle in its own right with about $600 price tag. Barrel is 1:9.
This is the competition that AR180B will face the most. By the same token it will also face competition from Saiga 223 and Gas Piston AR15s.
Saiga 223 quality has been gradually declining. Thinner barrels have been used in them lately. Overall quality and tolerances gotten worse. Price tag - $370.
AR15 gas pistons run generally in 1200 range. They have their own problems - carrier tilt. This has been reported with TWN armory gas piston retrofit and other companies as well.
AR180C has EVERY chance of being a successful rifle. Ho
wever, few things must happen for this:
1) 1:9 barrel is no longer acceptable unless the rifle is 370 bucks saiga. Even those now have 1:8 and 1:7 barrels. SU16 barrel is 1:9 too.
2) Non chrome line barrel is non acceptable. Unless the barrel is nitride laced.
3) AR15 is now fully modular. With C-product magazines and swappable bolts, it can be altered to fire any caliber. Even 9mm or 45ACP. This must be taken into consideration as well, when new AR180C will be made.
The AR180 upper is pretty much a metal sheet bent in two places with groves and cut. Stamped and not machined, unlike AR15. Therefore CHEAPER to make. The whole purpose of AR180 was to be a CHEAPER alternative to AR15. DPMS makes a VERY good AR15 rifle for $850 MSRP (Panther Classic). For a little more it comes with chrome lined barrel.
Up until recently, there was no C-product mags, and AR15s had swappable uppers in different caliber. This must be taken into account again. Either have swappable uppers in different calibers, or have a way to change the barrel. If no such possibility exist, you are once again fall into the same general group as SU-16 and Saiga 223. Or Century Arms C-93 which now sells at $600 and is infinitely more reliable then many AR15s. So the price of AR180C must also be chosen correctly. With minimal machining used, it has potential to match the cost of SU16 (which is all molded injection, like Glock). IF Armalite can create a rifle out of AR180 that will beat SU16 in performance and features at the similar price - then AR180C will succeed. If not, then people will either buy a cheaper SU16 or add few more bucks to go for a gas piston AR15.
Basically, AR180 will have following competitors for the market: SU-16, Saiga 223, AR15 Gas piston and C-93. I have an AR180B on which Kurt Kustom Firearms have installed a 24" chrome lined bushmaster HBAR. The whole kit and kaboodle cost me $900.
AR180C, should have the abilities which will make customers choose AR180C over SU-16 (cheaper uses same mags, nice barrel, well made), Saiga223 (really cheap, but made cheaply, thin barrel).
Or it will have to contend with Gas Piston AR15s. Which are more expensive then Su16, are also MUCH more customizable and have abilities of caliber swap. Ideally AR180C will offer most of AR15 abilities at a price slightly higher then SU16.
CHROME LINED AR15 compatible barrel which is 1:8 or 1:7 is a MUST. Having swappable uppers in 7.62x39, 5.45x39, 6.8SPC, 6.5 grendell and other would be very desirable as well.
To be honest, I could not care less if it has pistol handle or not.
We need a tough realiable high capacity rifle with accuracy better then Saiga 223. Such rifle already exists: SU-16. If Armalite can build an AR180C that is better then SU-16 - it will succeed. If not, Armalite will be competing with a rifle that is cheaper for the same general niche.
Well, I have been begging for the AR180C, so have the others, finally we have a response from Armalite. Now, will the new AR180C be an attractive buy? What kind of competition will it face?
If someone asks me: what rifles are out there that are 5.56x45 NATO, have chrome lined barrel and take AR15 mags, there is only ONE answer - Kel-Tec SU16 - a neat little rifle in its own right with about $600 price tag. Barrel is 1:9.
This is the competition that AR180B will face the most. By the same token it will also face competition from Saiga 223 and Gas Piston AR15s.
Saiga 223 quality has been gradually declining. Thinner barrels have been used in them lately. Overall quality and tolerances gotten worse. Price tag - $370.
AR15 gas pistons run generally in 1200 range. They have their own problems - carrier tilt. This has been reported with TWN armory gas piston retrofit and other companies as well.
AR180C has EVERY chance of being a successful rifle. Ho
wever, few things must happen for this:
1) 1:9 barrel is no longer acceptable unless the rifle is 370 bucks saiga. Even those now have 1:8 and 1:7 barrels. SU16 barrel is 1:9 too.
2) Non chrome line barrel is non acceptable. Unless the barrel is nitride laced.
3) AR15 is now fully modular. With C-product magazines and swappable bolts, it can be altered to fire any caliber. Even 9mm or 45ACP. This must be taken into consideration as well, when new AR180C will be made.
The AR180 upper is pretty much a metal sheet bent in two places with groves and cut. Stamped and not machined, unlike AR15. Therefore CHEAPER to make. The whole purpose of AR180 was to be a CHEAPER alternative to AR15. DPMS makes a VERY good AR15 rifle for $850 MSRP (Panther Classic). For a little more it comes with chrome lined barrel.
Up until recently, there was no C-product mags, and AR15s had swappable uppers in different caliber. This must be taken into account again. Either have swappable uppers in different calibers, or have a way to change the barrel. If no such possibility exist, you are once again fall into the same general group as SU-16 and Saiga 223. Or Century Arms C-93 which now sells at $600 and is infinitely more reliable then many AR15s. So the price of AR180C must also be chosen correctly. With minimal machining used, it has potential to match the cost of SU16 (which is all molded injection, like Glock). IF Armalite can create a rifle out of AR180 that will beat SU16 in performance and features at the similar price - then AR180C will succeed. If not, then people will either buy a cheaper SU16 or add few more bucks to go for a gas piston AR15.
Basically, AR180 will have following competitors for the market: SU-16, Saiga 223, AR15 Gas piston and C-93. I have an AR180B on which Kurt Kustom Firearms have installed a 24" chrome lined bushmaster HBAR. The whole kit and kaboodle cost me $900.
AR180C, should have the abilities which will make customers choose AR180C over SU-16 (cheaper uses same mags, nice barrel, well made), Saiga223 (really cheap, but made cheaply, thin barrel).
Or it will have to contend with Gas Piston AR15s. Which are more expensive then Su16, are also MUCH more customizable and have abilities of caliber swap. Ideally AR180C will offer most of AR15 abilities at a price slightly higher then SU16.
CHROME LINED AR15 compatible barrel which is 1:8 or 1:7 is a MUST. Having swappable uppers in 7.62x39, 5.45x39, 6.8SPC, 6.5 grendell and other would be very desirable as well.
To be honest, I could not care less if it has pistol handle or not.
We need a tough realiable high capacity rifle with accuracy better then Saiga 223. Such rifle already exists: SU-16. If Armalite can build an AR180C that is better then SU-16 - it will succeed. If not, Armalite will be competing with a rifle that is cheaper for the same general niche.
4/20/2010 5:10:04 PM
Realistically, if Armalite would build a low cost SOLID COMPETTITOR to the SCAR and ACR, they could corner the market. It doesn't need to have all the bells and whistles from the factory. The simple ability to replace things like the stock and handguard with upgraded versions after the initial purchase would be nice.
Continuous rail and 1/7 CL BBL standard. Other options like railed forearm and stock upgrades as add on options. Keep the price at <$800 and you have a heck of a rifle with the bomb proof operating system and an attractive price, without the (percieved) weaknesses of piston AR's.
Spend some $$ on marketing the rifle as an alternative to its $2000+ counterparts and you have a win win.
Sell the tacticool version for $200 more, Bam! New Kool-Aid.
Continuous rail and 1/7 CL BBL standard. Other options like railed forearm and stock upgrades as add on options. Keep the price at <$800 and you have a heck of a rifle with the bomb proof operating system and an attractive price, without the (percieved) weaknesses of piston AR's.
Spend some $$ on marketing the rifle as an alternative to its $2000+ counterparts and you have a win win.
Sell the tacticool version for $200 more, Bam! New Kool-Aid.
4/20/2010 6:29:09 PM
I agree
Originally Posted By lokifox:
Realistically, if Armalite would build a low cost SOLID COMPETTITOR to the SCAR and ACR, they could corner the market. It doesn't need to have all the bells and whistles from the factory. The simple ability to replace things like the stock and handguard with upgraded versions after the initial purchase would be nice.
Continuous rail and 1/7 CL BBL standard. Other options like railed forearm and stock upgrades as add on options. Keep the price at <$800 and you have a heck of a rifle with the bomb proof operating system and an attractive price, without the (percieved) weaknesses of piston AR's.
Spend some $$ on marketing the rifle as an alternative to its $2000+ counterparts and you have a win win.
Sell the tacticool version for $200 more, Bam! New Kool-Aid.
Realistically, if Armalite would build a low cost SOLID COMPETTITOR to the SCAR and ACR, they could corner the market. It doesn't need to have all the bells and whistles from the factory. The simple ability to replace things like the stock and handguard with upgraded versions after the initial purchase would be nice.
Continuous rail and 1/7 CL BBL standard. Other options like railed forearm and stock upgrades as add on options. Keep the price at <$800 and you have a heck of a rifle with the bomb proof operating system and an attractive price, without the (percieved) weaknesses of piston AR's.
Spend some $$ on marketing the rifle as an alternative to its $2000+ counterparts and you have a win win.
Sell the tacticool version for $200 more, Bam! New Kool-Aid.
4/25/2010 9:11:22 PM
Every point listed above is what Armalite should do - but won't!
I ranted in the other post about this:
Strengths & Weaknesses, Opportunities & Threats spells SWOT in business slang .... So Armalite, call out the SWOT team!
Armalite needs to stop looking at the AR180B (C, D, 181 or whatever the name ..) as a threat to the M15 and develop it as a parallel line to its full glory to compete with other piston rifles.
Piston AR15s are becoming very popular and just about every other AR15 maker has some sort of piston gun - problems exist with them however, as stated above in one of the other posts.
Sig 556 line has become very popular, MSAR STG556 & E4, Robinson XCR, FN SCAR, Bushmaster/Remington ACR, high end AK variants and the list goes on. There is a market for other assault rifles than the AR15 and it seems to be trending toward piston power.
The Strength & Weaknesses of the AR180C / AR181:
Without picking apart Armalite's manufacturing capabilities, I think the AR181 rifle could be made more cost effective than machined aluminum rifles and further use the M15 trigger/fire controls/magazine.
It was designed as a piston gun from its inception so it is reliable and could easily be made into a SWEET assault rifle.
The problems as I see them are just red tape: First, the rifle has an image problem, but not that many know about its past so this could be easily fixed and second, the rifle has a company that doesn't seem to want to claim it as its own. This is a bigger problem and needs the full support (and vision) of a well versed staff - in short, the problem is commitment, not manufacturing prowess.
Opportunities & Threats of the AR180C / AR181:
I would say more opportunity than threat. FN SCAR is $2000 + and Bushmaster/Remington just shot themselves in the ass with a super high priced 8.25 lb rifle that took 3 years to come to market.
There are other assault rifles which would be competitive against it - and against everything else in the Armalite line, but you have a sure thing if you give the AR180C / AR181 some options and make it sweet! The key is price vs. options available, Armalite could corner the market with something above what you could get in a piston AR15 package but for less money. Less money could mean $1200, $1300 or $1400 bucks - maybe higher depending on what the gun offers.
$1400 for a AR181 piston gun with 19" complete rail top, excellent barrel choices like 1:7 or 1:8 chromed and NATO chamber and light or medium weight, choice of excellent coyote or black finish, aluminum lower, rifle stock that folds, collapses and has adjustable comb, and options for all sorts of sling positions. Give an option for barrel length and even - dare I say it - caliber ... If its good it will sell.
.223 Rem / 5.56-centric public slipping away?
A few years ago only Armalite made a 7.62 AR. Today there are handful of companies with AR10 competitors and the military has fielded the M110. Additionally there is growing concern - both public and privately - about the puniness of the 5.56mm round.
With the need to shoot the bad guy 3 or 4 times to kill him, 5.56mm surpluses have been gobbled up and prices have gone through the roof.
The 6.8x43mm and 6.5 Grendel have been at the top of the conversation amongst the gun savvy public who would prefer an intermediate caliber - me included in that bunch.
I personally know several avid shooters who have gone to the AK47 despites its less friendly ergonomics because of its intermediate round and cheaper costs.
I think any conversation about the new AR180 has to include the use of an intermediate cartridge because I think its what the future will bring.
An intermediate cartridge is more of a multi-tasker than the 5.56mm: Hunt with it, protect with it, compete with it, there is enough power there but still compact and maneuverable.
What are your thoughts and why?
I ranted in the other post about this:
Strengths & Weaknesses, Opportunities & Threats spells SWOT in business slang .... So Armalite, call out the SWOT team!
Armalite needs to stop looking at the AR180B (C, D, 181 or whatever the name ..) as a threat to the M15 and develop it as a parallel line to its full glory to compete with other piston rifles.
Piston AR15s are becoming very popular and just about every other AR15 maker has some sort of piston gun - problems exist with them however, as stated above in one of the other posts.
Sig 556 line has become very popular, MSAR STG556 & E4, Robinson XCR, FN SCAR, Bushmaster/Remington ACR, high end AK variants and the list goes on. There is a market for other assault rifles than the AR15 and it seems to be trending toward piston power.
The Strength & Weaknesses of the AR180C / AR181:
Without picking apart Armalite's manufacturing capabilities, I think the AR181 rifle could be made more cost effective than machined aluminum rifles and further use the M15 trigger/fire controls/magazine.
It was designed as a piston gun from its inception so it is reliable and could easily be made into a SWEET assault rifle.
The problems as I see them are just red tape: First, the rifle has an image problem, but not that many know about its past so this could be easily fixed and second, the rifle has a company that doesn't seem to want to claim it as its own. This is a bigger problem and needs the full support (and vision) of a well versed staff - in short, the problem is commitment, not manufacturing prowess.
Opportunities & Threats of the AR180C / AR181:
I would say more opportunity than threat. FN SCAR is $2000 + and Bushmaster/Remington just shot themselves in the ass with a super high priced 8.25 lb rifle that took 3 years to come to market.
There are other assault rifles which would be competitive against it - and against everything else in the Armalite line, but you have a sure thing if you give the AR180C / AR181 some options and make it sweet! The key is price vs. options available, Armalite could corner the market with something above what you could get in a piston AR15 package but for less money. Less money could mean $1200, $1300 or $1400 bucks - maybe higher depending on what the gun offers.
$1400 for a AR181 piston gun with 19" complete rail top, excellent barrel choices like 1:7 or 1:8 chromed and NATO chamber and light or medium weight, choice of excellent coyote or black finish, aluminum lower, rifle stock that folds, collapses and has adjustable comb, and options for all sorts of sling positions. Give an option for barrel length and even - dare I say it - caliber ... If its good it will sell.
.223 Rem / 5.56-centric public slipping away?
A few years ago only Armalite made a 7.62 AR. Today there are handful of companies with AR10 competitors and the military has fielded the M110. Additionally there is growing concern - both public and privately - about the puniness of the 5.56mm round.
With the need to shoot the bad guy 3 or 4 times to kill him, 5.56mm surpluses have been gobbled up and prices have gone through the roof.
The 6.8x43mm and 6.5 Grendel have been at the top of the conversation amongst the gun savvy public who would prefer an intermediate caliber - me included in that bunch.
I personally know several avid shooters who have gone to the AK47 despites its less friendly ergonomics because of its intermediate round and cheaper costs.
I think any conversation about the new AR180 has to include the use of an intermediate cartridge because I think its what the future will bring.
An intermediate cartridge is more of a multi-tasker than the 5.56mm: Hunt with it, protect with it, compete with it, there is enough power there but still compact and maneuverable.
What are your thoughts and why?
4/25/2010 9:48:29 PM
all i want to see on the new AR180 is a 1-7 chrome lined hbar, a metal lower, and a folding stock. the rest of it can stay the same; a simple EBR.
4/25/2010 10:04:51 PM
It could be the base model -$800
4/25/2010 10:06:58 PM
Brilliant!
The problem is getting them to listen.
The problem is getting them to listen.
4/26/2010 5:06:06 PM
All the bells and whistles make it an expensive rifle.
If it even approaches the cost of the more expensive piston guns, even the SR-556 that is going for ~$1350, they will loose the market that the AR-180 is intended for.
In the cut throat world of firearms pricing today Armalite needs a slam dunk bargain, not a $12-1300 pig.
If it even approaches the cost of the more expensive piston guns, even the SR-556 that is going for ~$1350, they will loose the market that the AR-180 is intended for.
In the cut throat world of firearms pricing today Armalite needs a slam dunk bargain, not a $12-1300 pig.
4/26/2010 5:25:50 PM
All the extra BS is a waste of time and will increase price. Caliber conversion? 6.x? The majority of people are not interested in niche stuff like that. They are interested in price.
The AR-180b/c/x should be that gun that when some one walks into the gun store and finger f**k's all the $2000 rifles, then says "maybe when I can afford one" the salesperson can go "Well, I have THIS rifle..."
Accessibly priced rifles sell better than expensive rifles with all the bells and whistles. Most people interested in buying rifles are barely over FUDD stage, and don't give a crap about twhat all the tacti-cool guys want on the internet.
The AR-180b/c/x should be that gun that when some one walks into the gun store and finger f**k's all the $2000 rifles, then says "maybe when I can afford one" the salesperson can go "Well, I have THIS rifle..."
Accessibly priced rifles sell better than expensive rifles with all the bells and whistles. Most people interested in buying rifles are barely over FUDD stage, and don't give a crap about twhat all the tacti-cool guys want on the internet.
4/26/2010 5:52:21 PM
Price is not the only metric that sells guns, otherwise the AR180B would have flown off the shelves when it was $650 dollars.
Price versus Value Added Features is the issue
some of us want cheap, some of us want good, we don't get both in the same package. Not to say the 180B isn't good, but we get what we pay for.
The issue with price is what is being compared? AR180B vs. AR15, the 180B is cheaper but it doesn't offer the same level of value added features that an AR15 has, that is its not as refined.
The hot item now is piston AR15s, but they aren't cheap and it remains to be seen if they actually offer greater performance. The AR181 could be both: more reliable and cheaper!
Ruger SR556 sells for around $1500 and comes with goodies right out the box and probably the best value right now. LWRC M6 series, POF-USA P415 series, and HK all have piston ARs that sell for closer to the $2000 mark. Sig's 516 piston AR is supposed to MSRP at around $1300. Robinson XCR is priced around $1700 depending ...
All of these guns could be countered and bettered by an AR180C / 181 .. if it had the right options.
Price versus Value Added Features is the issue
some of us want cheap, some of us want good, we don't get both in the same package. Not to say the 180B isn't good, but we get what we pay for.
The issue with price is what is being compared? AR180B vs. AR15, the 180B is cheaper but it doesn't offer the same level of value added features that an AR15 has, that is its not as refined.
The hot item now is piston AR15s, but they aren't cheap and it remains to be seen if they actually offer greater performance. The AR181 could be both: more reliable and cheaper!
Ruger SR556 sells for around $1500 and comes with goodies right out the box and probably the best value right now. LWRC M6 series, POF-USA P415 series, and HK all have piston ARs that sell for closer to the $2000 mark. Sig's 516 piston AR is supposed to MSRP at around $1300. Robinson XCR is priced around $1700 depending ...
All of these guns could be countered and bettered by an AR180C / 181 .. if it had the right options.
4/26/2010 5:54:50 PM
The next AR180 should not be an after thought as suggested above.
Not being an afterthought doesn't necessarily mean it has to cost $2000 bucks. It could at least match common AR15 features.
Not being an afterthought doesn't necessarily mean it has to cost $2000 bucks. It could at least match common AR15 features.
4/29/2010 12:29:44 AM
5/8/2010 11:17:32 AM
Originally Posted By B44T:
StormWerkz has you covered for rails and fold stock parts.
Midwest Industries has your rail system.
StormWerkz has you covered for rails and fold stock parts.
Midwest Industries has your rail system.
This.
I understand what people are saying, but I, personally, would like to see exactly what armalite has told us will come:
The same rifle as last time, with a railed top and aluminum lower. Everything else the Aftermarket will handle. I'd much rather armalite release a "blank slate" for me to say what I want to put on it, instead of having a dozen different models with probably none of them reflecting the *exact* configuration I'm looking for.
The only other change I would make is AR barrel compatibility, but I don't know if that's feasible. But I don't want to spend 1500 bucks on a multirail folding tacticool crazy rifle. I'll spend 800 on a "plain jane" and start from there, thankyouverymuch.
5/9/2010 10:17:14 AM
First, don't call it an "assault" rifle! Bad term placed on these by politicians who want to ban them. We really need to break that bad terminology that anti-gunners got started.
Second, nothing at all wrong with a 1-9 barrel. In the real world this is the proper twist for the 55 to 62 grain bullets that 95% of .223 shooters are using. There are some that want a 1-7, make it an option for them. If anything, a 1-8 would be OK as a compromise.
Third, I agree on the pricing thing. If this rifle is to sell, it has to be priced right. It was originally designed to be a lower cost option. It should stay that way. No, its never going to be $399, get real! You want a $399 rifle by some third world POS that shoots "minute of pie plate" at 100 meters. Been there, done that. If you can get a Commie rifle to group even 5 MOA you are doing well.
Chrome lined barrels. Sure, they are nice, but have you ever noticed all those WW2 rifles that don't have chrome lined barrels and are still shooting well after over 60 years? Chrome lining started being used for a certain set of circumstances that 99.9% of users will never encounter. (Really, when was the last time you and your rifle laid out in a rice paddie for days on end without cleaning your rifle? Or, when did you last shoot a bunch of corrosive primed ammo? When did you last shoot 50,000 rounds down your barrel? ) If you want to keep the price down, don'd waste money on something that most of us will never miss. At most, make them an option.
This rifle has a place if for no other reason than to be another choice, something else I need to have in my safe. The AR15 market is flooded and we need more choices that are actually affordable. That three year wait on the new Remington/Bushmaster?Magpul thing has turned out to be a joke. The price puts it out of touch with most.
Armalite prices this rifle right, they have a winner.
Second, nothing at all wrong with a 1-9 barrel. In the real world this is the proper twist for the 55 to 62 grain bullets that 95% of .223 shooters are using. There are some that want a 1-7, make it an option for them. If anything, a 1-8 would be OK as a compromise.
Third, I agree on the pricing thing. If this rifle is to sell, it has to be priced right. It was originally designed to be a lower cost option. It should stay that way. No, its never going to be $399, get real! You want a $399 rifle by some third world POS that shoots "minute of pie plate" at 100 meters. Been there, done that. If you can get a Commie rifle to group even 5 MOA you are doing well.
Chrome lined barrels. Sure, they are nice, but have you ever noticed all those WW2 rifles that don't have chrome lined barrels and are still shooting well after over 60 years? Chrome lining started being used for a certain set of circumstances that 99.9% of users will never encounter. (Really, when was the last time you and your rifle laid out in a rice paddie for days on end without cleaning your rifle? Or, when did you last shoot a bunch of corrosive primed ammo? When did you last shoot 50,000 rounds down your barrel? ) If you want to keep the price down, don'd waste money on something that most of us will never miss. At most, make them an option.
This rifle has a place if for no other reason than to be another choice, something else I need to have in my safe. The AR15 market is flooded and we need more choices that are actually affordable. That three year wait on the new Remington/Bushmaster?Magpul thing has turned out to be a joke. The price puts it out of touch with most.
Armalite prices this rifle right, they have a winner.
5/9/2010 1:46:13 PM
+1 My only wish is a folding stock like the original AR18.
5/9/2010 10:29:26 PM
I bought one just before ther 2008 elections chose it over a Mini 14 for roughly the same price and love it even with that useless 1-9 non chromed barrel. The only 2 things I would prefer to have changed are a metal lower and a folding stock like the original. If you start pricing this rifle with the tacticool add ons into the $1000.00 and up range I don't believe it will sell. Bushmaster/Magpul with the ACR I think is learning that lesson the hard way especially in this economy.
5/12/2010 3:49:55 PM
Originally Posted By cookhj:
all i want to see on the new AR180 is a 1-7 chrome lined hbar, a metal lower, and a folding stock. the rest of it can stay the same; a simple EBR.
all i want to see on the new AR180 is a 1-7 chrome lined hbar, a metal lower, and a folding stock. the rest of it can stay the same; a simple EBR.
+1
