Archived Posts » 59,859,448
Buying a POF 308?
11/14/2009 7:26:48 PM
I am thinking about buying a POF 16" 308. But after reading some posts I am little worried about how it will function. And if I have problems how POF will handle the repairs. The rifle is not cheap so now I am very concerned about spending the $ on a problem. I have read so some good posts and alot of bad posts. So whats the verdict?
11/14/2009 8:12:29 PM
I have a 5.56, and it runs just fine.............it has none of these issues that some are complaining about
Go to the "AR Piston" forum.......in Ar-15......much happier POF'rs over there !!
Go to the "AR Piston" forum.......in Ar-15......much happier POF'rs over there !!
11/14/2009 11:10:08 PM
I have two POF uppers and passed on a 16" P308 today.
I told the guy who had it for sale to shoot it and tell me how it groups and then I will buy it.
He had no idea of some of the recent problems with the guns and is planning on doing exactly what I suggested.
He is also a stand up guy and if he says it shoots then I will buy it without reservation but there is no way in hell I
am buying a NIB gun straight from the POF factory.
I told the guy who had it for sale to shoot it and tell me how it groups and then I will buy it.
He had no idea of some of the recent problems with the guns and is planning on doing exactly what I suggested.
He is also a stand up guy and if he says it shoots then I will buy it without reservation but there is no way in hell I
am buying a NIB gun straight from the POF factory.
11/15/2009 12:36:17 AM
Thanks for the replies. I am having a very hard time in making a choice. I was going to get a M1A, but then the POF came up. I think after reading everything I am not going to take the chance of getting a bad POF.
11/15/2009 5:27:37 AM
With all that I have learned over the last 18 months dealing with POF, and recently attending a top notch LE Colt Armorers course through Specialized Armament, I am now of the mindset that Stoners design is better left alone. There is nothing wrong with the direct gas impingement system when it is used for what it is intended for, it is an EXCELLENT design that incorporates few moving parts and an action that is aligned with the chamber for increased reliability and a smooth cycle of operation. I can tell you with first hand experience that a "military grade" AR15/M16/M4 properly maintained will serve you well in combat. I NEVER saw or had a malfunction in any of my small unit military deployments with the M16A2. I frequently swam my weapon through surf zones before dragged them over the beach in a low crawl. I have dove the Draeger LAR VI in subsurface operations with my rifle strapped to my back in turbid waters, and patrolled through harsh African desert conditions in reconnaissance operations. As an LEO I see frequent malfunctions with many commercial grade AR style rifles, ammo, and magazines.
IMO If you add a piston to the AR15 platform you are making it LESS reliable, one of the reasons is the action is no longer properly aligned with the chamber and that alone can cause a host of problems. Some people have reported satisfaction with their POF rifles but my personal experience has shown it to be a nightmare (already documented here). One thing that no one can contest is the new piston AR style rifle has not yet proven itself in long term military service. Before someone points out the H&K 416 I am starting to hear of problems with the upper receivers being worn thin (to the point of seeing daylight through them!) now that they have been in small unit service for a few years.
I am also in the market for a semi auto 7.62, my focus will be on rifles that have a long pedigree of successful military service. If you want a piston gun for serious use I would look for a rifle that was built around the piston impingement operating system you are looking for (like the M1A you mentioned) not a piston retrofitted into a direct gas system. The latter is a product of commercial marketing and was intended to sell rifles to as many "individuals" as possible. This is not a big deal if you only want to take it to the range on the weekends but to trust an unproven system with protecting life and liberty is a mistake that I personally made and still regret.
IMO If you add a piston to the AR15 platform you are making it LESS reliable, one of the reasons is the action is no longer properly aligned with the chamber and that alone can cause a host of problems. Some people have reported satisfaction with their POF rifles but my personal experience has shown it to be a nightmare (already documented here). One thing that no one can contest is the new piston AR style rifle has not yet proven itself in long term military service. Before someone points out the H&K 416 I am starting to hear of problems with the upper receivers being worn thin (to the point of seeing daylight through them!) now that they have been in small unit service for a few years.
I am also in the market for a semi auto 7.62, my focus will be on rifles that have a long pedigree of successful military service. If you want a piston gun for serious use I would look for a rifle that was built around the piston impingement operating system you are looking for (like the M1A you mentioned) not a piston retrofitted into a direct gas system. The latter is a product of commercial marketing and was intended to sell rifles to as many "individuals" as possible. This is not a big deal if you only want to take it to the range on the weekends but to trust an unproven system with protecting life and liberty is a mistake that I personally made and still regret.
11/16/2009 7:58:21 PM
Originally Posted By ReconHM:
With all that I have learned over the last 18 months dealing with POF, and recently attending a top notch LE Colt Armorers course through Specialized Armament, I am now of the mindset that Stoners design is better left alone. There is nothing wrong with the direct gas impingement system when it is used for what it is intended for, it is an EXCELLENT design that incorporates few moving parts and an action that is aligned with the chamber for increased reliability and a smooth cycle of operation. I can tell you with first hand experience that a "military grade" AR15/M16/M4 properly maintained will serve you well in combat. I NEVER saw or had a malfunction in any of my small unit military deployments with the M16A2. I frequently swam my weapon through surf zones before dragged them over the beach in a low crawl. I have dove the Draeger LAR VI in subsurface operations with my rifle strapped to my back in turbid waters, and patrolled through harsh African desert conditions in reconnaissance operations. As an LEO I see frequent malfunctions with many commercial grade AR style rifles, ammo, and magazines.
IMO If you add a piston to the AR15 platform you are making it LESS reliable, one of the reasons is the action is no longer properly aligned with the chamber and that alone can cause a host of problems. Some people have reported satisfaction with their POF rifles but my personal experience has shown it to be a nightmare (already documented here). One thing that no one can contest is the new piston AR style rifle has not yet proven itself in long term military service. Before someone points out the H&K 416 I am starting to hear of problems with the upper receivers being worn thin (to the point of seeing daylight through them!) now that they have been in small unit service for a few years.
I am also in the market for a semi auto 7.62, my focus will be on rifles that have a long pedigree of successful military service. If you want a piston gun for serious use I would look for a rifle that was built around the piston impingement operating system you are looking for (like the M1A you mentioned) not a piston retrofitted into a direct gas system. The latter is a product of commercial marketing and was intended to sell rifles to as many "individuals" as possible. This is not a big deal if you only want to take it to the range on the weekends but to trust an unproven system with protecting life and liberty is a mistake that I personally made and still regret.
With all that I have learned over the last 18 months dealing with POF, and recently attending a top notch LE Colt Armorers course through Specialized Armament, I am now of the mindset that Stoners design is better left alone. There is nothing wrong with the direct gas impingement system when it is used for what it is intended for, it is an EXCELLENT design that incorporates few moving parts and an action that is aligned with the chamber for increased reliability and a smooth cycle of operation. I can tell you with first hand experience that a "military grade" AR15/M16/M4 properly maintained will serve you well in combat. I NEVER saw or had a malfunction in any of my small unit military deployments with the M16A2. I frequently swam my weapon through surf zones before dragged them over the beach in a low crawl. I have dove the Draeger LAR VI in subsurface operations with my rifle strapped to my back in turbid waters, and patrolled through harsh African desert conditions in reconnaissance operations. As an LEO I see frequent malfunctions with many commercial grade AR style rifles, ammo, and magazines.
IMO If you add a piston to the AR15 platform you are making it LESS reliable, one of the reasons is the action is no longer properly aligned with the chamber and that alone can cause a host of problems. Some people have reported satisfaction with their POF rifles but my personal experience has shown it to be a nightmare (already documented here). One thing that no one can contest is the new piston AR style rifle has not yet proven itself in long term military service. Before someone points out the H&K 416 I am starting to hear of problems with the upper receivers being worn thin (to the point of seeing daylight through them!) now that they have been in small unit service for a few years.
I am also in the market for a semi auto 7.62, my focus will be on rifles that have a long pedigree of successful military service. If you want a piston gun for serious use I would look for a rifle that was built around the piston impingement operating system you are looking for (like the M1A you mentioned) not a piston retrofitted into a direct gas system. The latter is a product of commercial marketing and was intended to sell rifles to as many "individuals" as possible. This is not a big deal if you only want to take it to the range on the weekends but to trust an unproven system with protecting life and liberty is a mistake that I personally made and still regret.
SUPERSTAR!!!!
Unfortunately, you are wrong as usual.
I have previously posted numerous articles from reliable military news websites documenting the shortcomings of the original Stoner design in combat. Unfortunately, your EXTENSIVE personal experience doesn't coincide with that of the US Army and US Marine Corp as a whole. The piston design was NOT a product of commercial marketing but an attempt to FIX the shortcomings of the direct impingement design by implementation of the most effective design on the planet, that of the AK-47, i.e. piston driven action. You have also done a REALLY poor job of describing the shortcoming of a piston-modified DI design. The action is still in alignment with the chamber. What you are referring to is the MOMENT (go look it up-physics term) created on the bolt carrier group from the force being applied off axis. This is known as CARRIER TILT and most piston manufacturers have overcome this by increasing the contact surface with the upper or adding material to the back of the BCG. I would love to see picks of the mythical HK 416 that wore all the way through. Again, you are grasping at straws here. Carrier tilt almost always manifest itself on the lower where the buffer tube is attached, as this is where the rotational force causes the BCG to contact the lower on its trip rearward.
I would love to see you go on the LWRC forum and talk this kind of Sh$& about the piston design. They would laugh at your false anecdotes and then ban your A$$ so quick you would be forced to come back here to spread your bogus facts. Numerous LWRC's have made it through Pat Rodgers classes which are known for separated the men from the ReconHM's. See you in 2010!!
Some have reported bolt lug shear on some 416 rifles but it is hard to find documentation of this and I have never heard of it happening even on high round count POF's or LWRC's. It is true the piston designs pulls the bolt lugs against the chamber lugs until it gets them free and I suppose this could cause a failure after thousands of rounds if the bolts weren't MPI'd. The Adams spring does seem to help mimic the original action of the DI guns by pushing the bolt forward in the BCG as the piston is pushing back on it to rotate it out of the lugs.
"Contrary to anonymous source reports on the Internet, the U.S. military HAS
NOT encountered significant problems with HK Model 416s in combat
conditions. HK416s are currently being used in combat operations by U.S.
and NATO special operations forces.
Furthermore, Heckler & Koch HAS NOT suspended production of the HK416. The
HK416 continues to be one of Heckler & Koch's most successful and sought
after products.
Steve Galloway
Communications Director
Heckler & Koch
Ashburn, Virginia
TEL: 703-450-1900
3 April 2009 "
11/16/2009 11:24:43 PM
LOL, the guy that taught my Armors course is a friend of Pat Rogers, I would love to attend one of Pat's classes with you!
How about May In Salt Lake City UT?
p.s.- everything I posted is true. I have no doubt that H&K will report all their products are an overwhelming success, nor do I doubt the fact you believe it.
11/16/2009 11:47:14 PM
Back to the origional topic. Put 75 rounds of black hills 168gr bthp through my 16 inch reper and customers 14 inch Pof today . The Pof shot circles around it . Pof 5 shot groups on average 3/4 moa and the smallest I could get out of the lwrc was right at 2.6 moa . My 20 inch Pof still was . 58 inches . All shot from lead sled so shooter was not an issue.
11/17/2009 2:38:19 AM
Originally Posted By 46rossi:
Back to the origional topic. Put 75 rounds of black hills 168gr bthp through my 16 inch reper and customers 14 inch Pof today . The Pof shot circles around it . Pof 5 shot groups on average 3/4 moa and the smallest I could get out of the lwrc was right at 2.6 moa . My 20 inch Pof still was . 58 inches . All shot from lead sled so shooter was not an issue.
Back to the origional topic. Put 75 rounds of black hills 168gr bthp through my 16 inch reper and customers 14 inch Pof today . The Pof shot circles around it . Pof 5 shot groups on average 3/4 moa and the smallest I could get out of the lwrc was right at 2.6 moa . My 20 inch Pof still was . 58 inches . All shot from lead sled so shooter was not an issue.
I know you guys have had some issues with the POF operating system but one selling point I always go back to is the Rock Creek Barrel. This brand is used extensively in many sniper set ups and is known for its incredible accuracy. I'm guessing it is the main contributor to POF's sub MOA claim to fame.
Mike Rock is the bombadilla.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=919076
11/17/2009 7:43:54 PM
Thanks guys for all the info. I have decided not to get the POF. I am afraid to spend $2600.00 on something that might have problems. If I can find a good deal on a M1A I might pick it up. If not I will just wait for the SCAR-H to go with my SCAR-L. I really wanted to try the POF and my wife gave the okay to get it and the 7.62 SD surpressor.
11/17/2009 8:30:11 PM
Originally Posted By SHOOTER:
Thanks guys for all the info. I have decided not to get the POF. I am afraid to spend $2600.00 on something that might have problems. If I can find a good deal on a M1A I might pick it up. If not I will just wait for the SCAR-H to go with my SCAR-L. I really wanted to try the POF and my wife gave the okay to get it and the 7.62 SD surpressor.
Thanks guys for all the info. I have decided not to get the POF. I am afraid to spend $2600.00 on something that might have problems. If I can find a good deal on a M1A I might pick it up. If not I will just wait for the SCAR-H to go with my SCAR-L. I really wanted to try the POF and my wife gave the okay to get it and the 7.62 SD surpressor.
Join the club dude.
I just put a down payment on the REPR.
11/19/2009 12:06:17 AM
Originally Posted By Swat_dude:
SUPERSTAR!!!!
Unfortunately, you are wrong as usual.
I have previously posted numerous articles from reliable military news websites documenting the shortcomings of the original Stoner design in combat. Unfortunately, your EXTENSIVE personal experience doesn't coincide with that of the US Army and US Marine Corp as a whole. The piston design was NOT a product of commercial marketing but an attempt to FIX the shortcomings of the direct impingement design by implementation of the most effective design on the planet, that of the AK-47, i.e. piston driven action. You have also done a REALLY poor job of describing the shortcoming of a piston-modified DI design. The action is still in alignment with the chamber. What you are referring to is the MOMENT (go look it up-physics term) created on the bolt carrier group from the force being applied off axis. This is known as CARRIER TILT and most piston manufacturers have overcome this by increasing the contact surface with the upper or adding material to the back of the BCG. I would love to see picks of the mythical HK 416 that wore all the way through. Again, you are grasping at straws here. Carrier tilt almost always manifest itself on the lower where the buffer tube is attached, as this is where the rotational force causes the BCG to contact the lower on its trip rearward.
I would love to see you go on the LWRC forum and talk this kind of Sh$& about the piston design. They would laugh at your false anecdotes and then ban your A$$ so quick you would be forced to come back here to spread your bogus facts. Numerous LWRC's have made it through Pat Rodgers classes which are known for separated the men from the ReconHM's. See you in 2010!!
Some have reported bolt lug shear on some 416 rifles but it is hard to find documentation of this and I have never heard of it happening even on high round count POF's or LWRC's. It is true the piston designs pulls the bolt lugs against the chamber lugs until it gets them free and I suppose this could cause a failure after thousands of rounds if the bolts weren't MPI'd. The Adams spring does seem to help mimic the original action of the DI guns by pushing the bolt forward in the BCG as the piston is pushing back on it to rotate it out of the lugs.
"Contrary to anonymous source reports on the Internet, the U.S. military HAS
NOT encountered significant problems with HK Model 416s in combat
conditions. HK416s are currently being used in combat operations by U.S.
and NATO special operations forces.
Furthermore, Heckler & Koch HAS NOT suspended production of the HK416. The
HK416 continues to be one of Heckler & Koch's most successful and sought
after products.
Steve Galloway
Communications Director
Heckler & Koch
Ashburn, Virginia
TEL: 703-450-1900
3 April 2009 "
Originally Posted By ReconHM:
With all that I have learned over the last 18 months dealing with POF, and recently attending a top notch LE Colt Armorers course through Specialized Armament, I am now of the mindset that Stoners design is better left alone. There is nothing wrong with the direct gas impingement system when it is used for what it is intended for, it is an EXCELLENT design that incorporates few moving parts and an action that is aligned with the chamber for increased reliability and a smooth cycle of operation. I can tell you with first hand experience that a "military grade" AR15/M16/M4 properly maintained will serve you well in combat. I NEVER saw or had a malfunction in any of my small unit military deployments with the M16A2. I frequently swam my weapon through surf zones before dragged them over the beach in a low crawl. I have dove the Draeger LAR VI in subsurface operations with my rifle strapped to my back in turbid waters, and patrolled through harsh African desert conditions in reconnaissance operations. As an LEO I see frequent malfunctions with many commercial grade AR style rifles, ammo, and magazines.
IMO If you add a piston to the AR15 platform you are making it LESS reliable, one of the reasons is the action is no longer properly aligned with the chamber and that alone can cause a host of problems. Some people have reported satisfaction with their POF rifles but my personal experience has shown it to be a nightmare (already documented here). One thing that no one can contest is the new piston AR style rifle has not yet proven itself in long term military service. Before someone points out the H&K 416 I am starting to hear of problems with the upper receivers being worn thin (to the point of seeing daylight through them!) now that they have been in small unit service for a few years.
I am also in the market for a semi auto 7.62, my focus will be on rifles that have a long pedigree of successful military service. If you want a piston gun for serious use I would look for a rifle that was built around the piston impingement operating system you are looking for (like the M1A you mentioned) not a piston retrofitted into a direct gas system. The latter is a product of commercial marketing and was intended to sell rifles to as many "individuals" as possible. This is not a big deal if you only want to take it to the range on the weekends but to trust an unproven system with protecting life and liberty is a mistake that I personally made and still regret.
With all that I have learned over the last 18 months dealing with POF, and recently attending a top notch LE Colt Armorers course through Specialized Armament, I am now of the mindset that Stoners design is better left alone. There is nothing wrong with the direct gas impingement system when it is used for what it is intended for, it is an EXCELLENT design that incorporates few moving parts and an action that is aligned with the chamber for increased reliability and a smooth cycle of operation. I can tell you with first hand experience that a "military grade" AR15/M16/M4 properly maintained will serve you well in combat. I NEVER saw or had a malfunction in any of my small unit military deployments with the M16A2. I frequently swam my weapon through surf zones before dragged them over the beach in a low crawl. I have dove the Draeger LAR VI in subsurface operations with my rifle strapped to my back in turbid waters, and patrolled through harsh African desert conditions in reconnaissance operations. As an LEO I see frequent malfunctions with many commercial grade AR style rifles, ammo, and magazines.
IMO If you add a piston to the AR15 platform you are making it LESS reliable, one of the reasons is the action is no longer properly aligned with the chamber and that alone can cause a host of problems. Some people have reported satisfaction with their POF rifles but my personal experience has shown it to be a nightmare (already documented here). One thing that no one can contest is the new piston AR style rifle has not yet proven itself in long term military service. Before someone points out the H&K 416 I am starting to hear of problems with the upper receivers being worn thin (to the point of seeing daylight through them!) now that they have been in small unit service for a few years.
I am also in the market for a semi auto 7.62, my focus will be on rifles that have a long pedigree of successful military service. If you want a piston gun for serious use I would look for a rifle that was built around the piston impingement operating system you are looking for (like the M1A you mentioned) not a piston retrofitted into a direct gas system. The latter is a product of commercial marketing and was intended to sell rifles to as many "individuals" as possible. This is not a big deal if you only want to take it to the range on the weekends but to trust an unproven system with protecting life and liberty is a mistake that I personally made and still regret.
SUPERSTAR!!!!
Unfortunately, you are wrong as usual.
I have previously posted numerous articles from reliable military news websites documenting the shortcomings of the original Stoner design in combat. Unfortunately, your EXTENSIVE personal experience doesn't coincide with that of the US Army and US Marine Corp as a whole. The piston design was NOT a product of commercial marketing but an attempt to FIX the shortcomings of the direct impingement design by implementation of the most effective design on the planet, that of the AK-47, i.e. piston driven action. You have also done a REALLY poor job of describing the shortcoming of a piston-modified DI design. The action is still in alignment with the chamber. What you are referring to is the MOMENT (go look it up-physics term) created on the bolt carrier group from the force being applied off axis. This is known as CARRIER TILT and most piston manufacturers have overcome this by increasing the contact surface with the upper or adding material to the back of the BCG. I would love to see picks of the mythical HK 416 that wore all the way through. Again, you are grasping at straws here. Carrier tilt almost always manifest itself on the lower where the buffer tube is attached, as this is where the rotational force causes the BCG to contact the lower on its trip rearward.
I would love to see you go on the LWRC forum and talk this kind of Sh$& about the piston design. They would laugh at your false anecdotes and then ban your A$$ so quick you would be forced to come back here to spread your bogus facts. Numerous LWRC's have made it through Pat Rodgers classes which are known for separated the men from the ReconHM's. See you in 2010!!
Some have reported bolt lug shear on some 416 rifles but it is hard to find documentation of this and I have never heard of it happening even on high round count POF's or LWRC's. It is true the piston designs pulls the bolt lugs against the chamber lugs until it gets them free and I suppose this could cause a failure after thousands of rounds if the bolts weren't MPI'd. The Adams spring does seem to help mimic the original action of the DI guns by pushing the bolt forward in the BCG as the piston is pushing back on it to rotate it out of the lugs.
"Contrary to anonymous source reports on the Internet, the U.S. military HAS
NOT encountered significant problems with HK Model 416s in combat
conditions. HK416s are currently being used in combat operations by U.S.
and NATO special operations forces.
Furthermore, Heckler & Koch HAS NOT suspended production of the HK416. The
HK416 continues to be one of Heckler & Koch's most successful and sought
after products.
Steve Galloway
Communications Director
Heckler & Koch
Ashburn, Virginia
TEL: 703-450-1900
3 April 2009 "
Swat Dude why do you attack everyone that voices a legitimate concern over POF's quality?? We are POF customers too and we have every right to voice our questions.
You need to change your ID to Swat Douche
Such an Asshole
11/19/2009 3:15:21 AM
Originally Posted By Swat_dude:
SUPERSTAR!!!!
Unfortunately, you are wrong as usual.
I have previously posted numerous articles from reliable military news websites documenting the shortcomings of the original Stoner design in combat. Unfortunately, your EXTENSIVE personal experience doesn't coincide with that of the US Army and US Marine Corp as a whole. The piston design was NOT a product of commercial marketing but an attempt to FIX the shortcomings of the direct impingement design by implementation of the most effective design on the planet, that of the AK-47, i.e. piston driven action. You have also done a REALLY poor job of describing the shortcoming of a piston-modified DI design. The action is still in alignment with the chamber. What you are referring to is the MOMENT (go look it up-physics term) created on the bolt carrier group from the force being applied off axis. This is known as CARRIER TILT and most piston manufacturers have overcome this by increasing the contact surface with the upper or adding material to the back of the BCG. I would love to see picks of the mythical HK 416 that wore all the way through. Again, you are grasping at straws here. Carrier tilt almost always manifest itself on the lower where the buffer tube is attached, as this is where the rotational force causes the BCG to contact the lower on its trip rearward.
I would love to see you go on the LWRC forum and talk this kind of Sh$& about the piston design. They would laugh at your false anecdotes and then ban your A$$ so quick you would be forced to come back here to spread your bogus facts. Numerous LWRC's have made it through Pat Rodgers classes which are known for separated the men from the ReconHM's. See you in 2010!!
Some have reported bolt lug shear on some 416 rifles but it is hard to find documentation of this and I have never heard of it happening even on high round count POF's or LWRC's. It is true the piston designs pulls the bolt lugs against the chamber lugs until it gets them free and I suppose this could cause a failure after thousands of rounds if the bolts weren't MPI'd. The Adams spring does seem to help mimic the original action of the DI guns by pushing the bolt forward in the BCG as the piston is pushing back on it to rotate it out of the lugs.
"Contrary to anonymous source reports on the Internet, the U.S. military HAS
NOT encountered significant problems with HK Model 416s in combat
conditions. HK416s are currently being used in combat operations by U.S.
and NATO special operations forces.
Furthermore, Heckler & Koch HAS NOT suspended production of the HK416. The
HK416 continues to be one of Heckler & Koch's most successful and sought
after products.
Steve Galloway
Communications Director
Heckler & Koch
Ashburn, Virginia
TEL: 703-450-1900
3 April 2009 "
Originally Posted By ReconHM:
With all that I have learned over the last 18 months dealing with POF, and recently attending a top notch LE Colt Armorers course through Specialized Armament, I am now of the mindset that Stoners design is better left alone. There is nothing wrong with the direct gas impingement system when it is used for what it is intended for, it is an EXCELLENT design that incorporates few moving parts and an action that is aligned with the chamber for increased reliability and a smooth cycle of operation. I can tell you with first hand experience that a "military grade" AR15/M16/M4 properly maintained will serve you well in combat. I NEVER saw or had a malfunction in any of my small unit military deployments with the M16A2. I frequently swam my weapon through surf zones before dragged them over the beach in a low crawl. I have dove the Draeger LAR VI in subsurface operations with my rifle strapped to my back in turbid waters, and patrolled through harsh African desert conditions in reconnaissance operations. As an LEO I see frequent malfunctions with many commercial grade AR style rifles, ammo, and magazines.
IMO If you add a piston to the AR15 platform you are making it LESS reliable, one of the reasons is the action is no longer properly aligned with the chamber and that alone can cause a host of problems. Some people have reported satisfaction with their POF rifles but my personal experience has shown it to be a nightmare (already documented here). One thing that no one can contest is the new piston AR style rifle has not yet proven itself in long term military service. Before someone points out the H&K 416 I am starting to hear of problems with the upper receivers being worn thin (to the point of seeing daylight through them!) now that they have been in small unit service for a few years.
I am also in the market for a semi auto 7.62, my focus will be on rifles that have a long pedigree of successful military service. If you want a piston gun for serious use I would look for a rifle that was built around the piston impingement operating system you are looking for (like the M1A you mentioned) not a piston retrofitted into a direct gas system. The latter is a product of commercial marketing and was intended to sell rifles to as many "individuals" as possible. This is not a big deal if you only want to take it to the range on the weekends but to trust an unproven system with protecting life and liberty is a mistake that I personally made and still regret.
With all that I have learned over the last 18 months dealing with POF, and recently attending a top notch LE Colt Armorers course through Specialized Armament, I am now of the mindset that Stoners design is better left alone. There is nothing wrong with the direct gas impingement system when it is used for what it is intended for, it is an EXCELLENT design that incorporates few moving parts and an action that is aligned with the chamber for increased reliability and a smooth cycle of operation. I can tell you with first hand experience that a "military grade" AR15/M16/M4 properly maintained will serve you well in combat. I NEVER saw or had a malfunction in any of my small unit military deployments with the M16A2. I frequently swam my weapon through surf zones before dragged them over the beach in a low crawl. I have dove the Draeger LAR VI in subsurface operations with my rifle strapped to my back in turbid waters, and patrolled through harsh African desert conditions in reconnaissance operations. As an LEO I see frequent malfunctions with many commercial grade AR style rifles, ammo, and magazines.
IMO If you add a piston to the AR15 platform you are making it LESS reliable, one of the reasons is the action is no longer properly aligned with the chamber and that alone can cause a host of problems. Some people have reported satisfaction with their POF rifles but my personal experience has shown it to be a nightmare (already documented here). One thing that no one can contest is the new piston AR style rifle has not yet proven itself in long term military service. Before someone points out the H&K 416 I am starting to hear of problems with the upper receivers being worn thin (to the point of seeing daylight through them!) now that they have been in small unit service for a few years.
I am also in the market for a semi auto 7.62, my focus will be on rifles that have a long pedigree of successful military service. If you want a piston gun for serious use I would look for a rifle that was built around the piston impingement operating system you are looking for (like the M1A you mentioned) not a piston retrofitted into a direct gas system. The latter is a product of commercial marketing and was intended to sell rifles to as many "individuals" as possible. This is not a big deal if you only want to take it to the range on the weekends but to trust an unproven system with protecting life and liberty is a mistake that I personally made and still regret.
SUPERSTAR!!!!
Unfortunately, you are wrong as usual.
I have previously posted numerous articles from reliable military news websites documenting the shortcomings of the original Stoner design in combat. Unfortunately, your EXTENSIVE personal experience doesn't coincide with that of the US Army and US Marine Corp as a whole. The piston design was NOT a product of commercial marketing but an attempt to FIX the shortcomings of the direct impingement design by implementation of the most effective design on the planet, that of the AK-47, i.e. piston driven action. You have also done a REALLY poor job of describing the shortcoming of a piston-modified DI design. The action is still in alignment with the chamber. What you are referring to is the MOMENT (go look it up-physics term) created on the bolt carrier group from the force being applied off axis. This is known as CARRIER TILT and most piston manufacturers have overcome this by increasing the contact surface with the upper or adding material to the back of the BCG. I would love to see picks of the mythical HK 416 that wore all the way through. Again, you are grasping at straws here. Carrier tilt almost always manifest itself on the lower where the buffer tube is attached, as this is where the rotational force causes the BCG to contact the lower on its trip rearward.
I would love to see you go on the LWRC forum and talk this kind of Sh$& about the piston design. They would laugh at your false anecdotes and then ban your A$$ so quick you would be forced to come back here to spread your bogus facts. Numerous LWRC's have made it through Pat Rodgers classes which are known for separated the men from the ReconHM's. See you in 2010!!
Some have reported bolt lug shear on some 416 rifles but it is hard to find documentation of this and I have never heard of it happening even on high round count POF's or LWRC's. It is true the piston designs pulls the bolt lugs against the chamber lugs until it gets them free and I suppose this could cause a failure after thousands of rounds if the bolts weren't MPI'd. The Adams spring does seem to help mimic the original action of the DI guns by pushing the bolt forward in the BCG as the piston is pushing back on it to rotate it out of the lugs.
"Contrary to anonymous source reports on the Internet, the U.S. military HAS
NOT encountered significant problems with HK Model 416s in combat
conditions. HK416s are currently being used in combat operations by U.S.
and NATO special operations forces.
Furthermore, Heckler & Koch HAS NOT suspended production of the HK416. The
HK416 continues to be one of Heckler & Koch's most successful and sought
after products.
Steve Galloway
Communications Director
Heckler & Koch
Ashburn, Virginia
TEL: 703-450-1900
3 April 2009 "
416 uppers are indeed cracking. However they have seen multiple barrels. So they are at pretty high round counts. Almost inconsequential for all but the most insane civilian shooter. Still, is HK going to talk about it publicly? No.
You really have bought a little too much of the marketing hype. "Reliable military news websites", that's a joke, right? I sure hope you don't mean the Army Times...
Yes, op-rod uppers really do offer some advantages.
However, the presence of an op-rod won't fix a bad magazine design...I would hold out for the HK417 or MR308 or whatever it's called...I have had the chance to compare the mags in detail, hand on, and the 417 mag is leaps and bounds better than the SR-25 pattern mag design.
11/19/2009 4:58:12 PM
I have a POF .308 with 20 in. barrel which can out shoot most bolt action rifles 1/2 moa at 200 yds . I
But I also have a POF 416 with 14.5 inch barrel that has been sent back only to come back with the same problems.FTE
Although an M1a is a great rifle it is no EBR. If you want a true AK type piston rifle look to XCR which will probably make a .308
Recon and Swat fight like husband and wife in every POF topic i have read.
But I also have a POF 416 with 14.5 inch barrel that has been sent back only to come back with the same problems.FTE
Although an M1a is a great rifle it is no EBR. If you want a true AK type piston rifle look to XCR which will probably make a .308
Recon and Swat fight like husband and wife in every POF topic i have read.
11/20/2009 2:13:41 AM
Originally Posted By CRF:
Swat Dude why do you attack everyone that voices a legitimate concern over POF's quality?? We are POF customers too and we have every right to voice our questions.
You need to change your ID to Swat Douche
Such an Asshole
Swat Dude why do you attack everyone that voices a legitimate concern over POF's quality?? We are POF customers too and we have every right to voice our questions.
You need to change your ID to Swat Douche
Such an Asshole
At least I can read. My post didn't have anything to do with POF quality. I'm not sure where you pulled that out of but judging by your name calling above, I'd say you have a bad case of internet balls. And I think your post would qualify as a personal attack. If you actually read my post you would have seen I was clarifying some misinformation about ALL piston-modified AR designs. Again, I would love to see you guys post this BS over on the LWRC forum.
11/21/2009 7:26:43 AM
hey swat dude the ak-47 was stolen from the german sturmgewehr 44 so it is the best stolen design!
the best piston design is the fn-fal if it was left in the original caliber of .260 or 6.5mm . we {the usa)forced them to change the cal to 7.62 nato{.308 win} and then said no will use the m-14!
the fal in .260 cal would be the best battle rifle imho. hmm i see a lot of interest in the 6.5 be it .260 rem or 6.5 grendel or 6.5 creedmoor
http://www.efour4ever.com/stg44.htm
the best piston design is the fn-fal if it was left in the original caliber of .260 or 6.5mm . we {the usa)forced them to change the cal to 7.62 nato{.308 win} and then said no will use the m-14!
the fal in .260 cal would be the best battle rifle imho. hmm i see a lot of interest in the 6.5 be it .260 rem or 6.5 grendel or 6.5 creedmoor
http://www.efour4ever.com/stg44.htm
11/21/2009 10:20:07 AM
locking this thread since it has gone down the drain into name calling. I told ya'll before, if a thread goes to this level, I'll lock it.
11/21/2009 10:20:51 AM
not dealing with the name calling in this forum
