Need lots of feedback on this thread... P-415/416 issues anyone?

I started a thread titled "Rather dissapointed" that you should read. Link http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=206&t=170064

I'm asking any owners to post about whether or not they are having any issues relating to the other post. Yes, no? When did you buy? Barrel length? Semi / Full Auto? Suppressed? How many rounds have you shot?

Also, .308 owners. Are you having any issues related to this as well?

Mine is a P-415 16" barrel.
Purchased in Nov '08
About 400 rounds max
Semi Auto
Non Suppressed

And of course, yes, I have "the groove" in the upper. Hence the begining of the post.

POF P-415, 16 inch, no suppressor or full auto.
I bought it as a complete rifle in November 2008 from Felix
It has about 500 rounds of Lake City XM193 and Federal TRU through it so far.

I love this rifle - no malfunctions at all and great accuracy. I have a shiny spot where your pictures indicate, but nothing I would call even a light groove. The bolt and cam pin look new. You can bet I'll be keeping an eye on it and will report back if I notice any problems. My only minor complaint with the rifle is the fit of PMAGs into the lower, but that's another thread...

Please keep us updated on your progress. As others have said: it's a lot of money.

Best wishes,

- Wilson

Mine has the same wear/groove as your's that I posted in your other thread.

P-415, 16" barrel, complete rifle w/genIII lower
Purchased in August 2008
About 700 rounds max
Semi Auto
Non-suppressed

I purchased mine directly from POF with Chris. The wear on mine is about the same depth as your's. When I first got it, I was having extraction problems (4 out of 220 rounds). After I installed a "D" (Defender) Ring around the extractor, I have not had a malfunction since. I only noticed the groove when I was cleaning it last month in January which was the last time I took her out to the range. I am still using the buffer and buffer spring that came with it if that helps. I love this rifle, but like you, I'm a little disappointed. Hope we can get it fixed and I hope someone from POF gets on here to answer some questions. I know, I should just call them.

I have a P-415 with a 16inch barrel
Purchased in Feb of 2008
A little over 300 rounds through it
Shoot it semi-auto no suppressor

I have the same wear and chrome flakes inside my receiver. I don't really see it as a problem as of yet. But, I would like to know that this is not a problem in the future.

Other then the strange wearing I have not had any issues with my rifle. I added a 6oz buffer and it shoots really smoothly.

Same wear little over 500rds

11.5 SBR
Gen1 lower
shoot with and without hush can
bought from Felix

had feeding issue in the beginning and the now the groove in the upper.

I have the POF 12.5 inch upper with the shorter gas system (like the POF 9.5 inch comes with)

only about 240 rounds have been fired through this upper and I have the same wear and chrome flakes inside my receiver.

I've had perfect reliability and great accuracy from this upper. I've fed it 77gr federal TRU, XM855 NATO, XM193 NATO, 55gr soft point Wolf and 75gr steel-cased Hornady practice ammo and I intend on buying a suppressor for it (for me that is the whole purpose in buying a piston AR and this can only serve to add to the wear I'm seeing in the upper receiver). If the metal flakes do not stop by 500 rounds I'm going to assume the gun is on its way towards destroying itself and eating itself apart. I'm going to experiment with a 9mm buffer and see what happens.

The chamber, bolt, bolt carrier and all other internal parts look perfect and new. I can only assume that all the metal flakes are coming from "the groove" being worn in around the cam-pin area in the upper receiver. I do not understand how this happens??? Doesn't the cam-pin have to be completely rotated and out of the way of the upper receiver before the bolt could have unlocked and released from the chamber??? HOW DOES THIS GROOVE HAPPEN???

That's what I thought too but the groove is there.

And you would think this tearing at the upper receiver would apply way more then enough resistance to jam the gun but my gun isn't even phased by it. Not even with the weakest, most low pressure ammo I can find to feed through it.

We really need to hear from some folks who have a much higher round count. 2000+ rounds, is anyone still seeing metal shavings and increasing wear in "the groove". Or is there hope? Will these guns break or break-in???

POF P-308 16" carbine here.
Round count currently at 1880.
Took it apart and closely inspected everything this morning.
No visible wear marks of any kind can be seen inside the upper, nor on the bolt, or the carrier so far.
Just some brass kisses on the deflector.

have a couple of there rifles and/or uppers. Noticed this groove in one of them awhile back. but it is not getting any worse. I have abount 3500 rounds through my 14.5" 308 and there has been no change in the last few thousand rounds. I am not going to worry about it. it is running fine.

I also know Frank will stand behind his product. if this IS a major issue, which I do not think it is, he will fix it/replace it. I know the Silicone nickel finish is thick and things were in, there is some that will were off, but not through.

My upper has well over 2000 rounds through it. I do have quite a grove worn into my upper, and I will be watching closely to see if it gets bigger. I did notice a few chrome flecks in gun, posting some pics

Hard to photo area BTW!

POF 308 I got this upper last week. Brand new ONLY TEST FIRED at factory!!! Im kinda pissed!! I wrote them an email a week ago and still no response! $2000 later and this is what ive got and ive never even shot it yet

Yeah, it wasn't easy getting photos of this stuff for me either. I wish I could have used my nikon 35mm but that is such a hassle... I never use that thing anymore. Digital is the way to go nowadays. So I had to struggle with my sony point and shoot, but I feel that my photos pretty clearly express my concerns...

I have sent my upper back to POF. They received it last Friday according to the tracking number. I'll keep everyone posted about how this issue turns out.

I will say this though. Although it is weird that "the groove" is "created" aside from the apparent design, having heard from a few people that have a few thousand rounds through their's makes me feel a little bit better about issue. I felt that I had the one POS with a defect but it seems that it is a common issue (perhaps) and doesn't affect the performance of the hardware. If that's the case then so be it. I'm sure that I will put enough rounds through mine within the warranty period to find out if it is a true "defect" or not.

Anyways, I'm waiting to hear from POF about this and see what they say. I'll keep you posted.

Thanks for everyone who is sharing their experience on either side of this fence.

What kind of buffer system are you all using? I'm using this upper on a LMT Defender 2000. I think the buffer is a standard carbine buffer. There is no "H2" stamp or anything like that on it. I have heard that piston systems operated much faster than DI. I don't know about the validity to that. It's just what I heard. Maybe we need a heavier buffer system...

I've got around 600 - 700 rounds through my POF, some very slight flaking, no groves I can see. No other issues. Haven't had an function issues. Been very pleased thus far.

I think they run slower from my experience.
I am running an Endine ( I think I spelled that right) buffer and my guns run fine.
I put the upper on a full auto lower a few months back and it ran fine too.

When you see Team POF knocking stuck cases out of their 308s at local precision matches you tend to go hmmmmm.

Hmmmmm, why am I not surprised.

POF 415, 9.25" barrel
500 rounds

Checked mine and found the same wear pattern about 1/4 the size of the one in your picture.
Like the other post, if the cam is supposed to rotate out of the way what is causing this?

Is this common? Anyone with a 308 having this problem?
Not trying to pick a fight, I am on the list for one of these.

POF 415 16" Semi 5.56
I haven't gotten a chance to get to the range with it yet. I will check to see if I have this shaving issue. What did POF say about it?

They haven't said anything as of yet except "Thank You."

As I get updates, so will you guys...

Here's a new one for you...

Check your bolts and make sure they aren't marked for a 6.8. A guy on snipershide just found that his .223 had a 6.8 bolt in it! Fun stuff!

What is going on with POF?!?!

Where do you look for those markings?
My two don't have anything on them.

I just checked mine. I have not put rounds through it. There is a chance that this carving may show it self once I begin to use the rifle. I was very excited about this rifle, now you all got me very hesitant.

Are you all lubing the rifle up? I know some run it dry.

pof is just rushing things of late no quality control. the last gun we got has been back 3 times now and still not right rips heads off cases on anytype ammo. i used to love pof but with all the bs latley they can keep them. chris just tells you what you want to hear. bottom line is new pofs= junk. buy a sig 556 for half the money at least if something goes wrong with it sig wont feed you a line of shit.

POF 415 upper 16" bbl
PWA lower

1000k rounds through it
I also have the groove shown in the pictures, about half the size and growing.

WTF - are we all simply screwed..?

I have a Gen I 416 lower that has the PMAG non-fit issue. Original PMAGs can be forced in, windowed PMAGs can be forced in but the new "M" PMAGs forget about it!!! I can't even get them to go in a 1/2".

Just to add to your report of possibly normal wear?????????
I have a preban Bushy with who knows how many thousands of rounds through it with the same wear concern. I'm not too worried about as the thing never hic-ups.

TC

probally so. last time i sent one of mine back it took 9 weeks they have had it i longer than i have. said they could find no problem it must be my ammo. i guess lakecity hordany blackhills federal are all no good. mine is now a singe shot have to knock brass out with cleaning rod after each shot. but chris said there is no problem with a gun that has huge grooves in the reciever and rips spent cases apart . i have had 9 complete pof rifles over the last 2 years and this one is a turd as it seems all the newer ones leaving the factory.

My main concern is whether or not this is normal. Some of you are stating that the older POF's did not have this issue? Has anybody had failures with their rifles?

My rifle has been 100%, I'm just concerned like everyone else if this wear will shorten the life of my favorite rifle.

I do run my POF with lube, and since I saw this thread I've been putting a light coat of grease on the "groove" to try to keep it from getting worse.

Can't wait to hear from POF!

- Wilson

non of my old one showed any kind of wear . this recon looks like the reciever was hacked up with a chisil and it shoots just like a muzzl loader. think pof knows they have a problem that is why the are staying away.

I have a P308 on order and am starting to have second thoughts after reading what you guys are experiencing. Now POF wants a 50% deposit on a 6-9 month lead time? Why hasnt POF responded on this forum? Something is really starting to smell bad.

crf do your self a big favor and run. or find one that was made 6 or 8 monts ago. wish i would of kept my old ones.

Might want to check this out.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=428413

Good read. I'm glad the guys on that thread had happy endings and good experiences with POF customer service.

Has anyone found other threads out there about our groove issue?

-Wilson

If I am reading this correct, the issue is the bolt?

Yes it appears the issue is with the bolt.

At least in that case.

Makes a lot of sense, and the guy obviously did his home work.

Ive been reading about the grove therory all day and I am freaked out to no end at this point. Im almost afraid to shoot my 415 now because,it will lower the value if i have to dump it.
p.s. I know little to jack sh––t about ar's & I am trying to learn. coments would be greatly welcomed

I wish I could reassure you, but feel a lot like I'm in the same boat. I bought a few of them and only fired the one (for no reason in particular) until I read this thread, now I'm committed on it and plan to run it till it pukes, or till I'm satisfied its just "normal wear" for these. I wish us all the best of luck.

Didn't the Sig 556's have a ton of teething problems??

MYSTERY SOLVED!!!!!!

Guess what boys??? My LWRC M6A2 upper has the same groove chewed out!!! So instead of going to bed, I just got done studying this issue for the last hour and here is what I found. When the bolt carrier moves rearward and the bolt unlocks, the cam pin is not making it all the way to the end of the grove in the bolt carrier. Therefore, the cam pin is cocked slightly outside the protection of the carrier key so it makes contact with the upper in the grove spot before aligning fully and traveling to the rear without rubbing. Do this: crack the upper open and pull your locked bolt back with finger pressure and then remove the bolt. Looking down at the top of the bolt, you will see that the cam pin is not aligned with the key but hanging outside of the key slightly where it can chew up the inside of the upper on its way rearward. This really seems to have to do with the way bolt carrier lugs line up with the chamber lugs. The carrier is allowed to unlock before the bolt and cam pin are pulled completely forward, that is, before the pin makes it all the way to the front of the groove in the bolt carrier, leaving the pin cocked to the left slightly inside the upper where it is hitting the inside of the upper on it's way back before being aligned in the groove. Once aligned by smashing into the upper, it doesn't seem to be wearing anymore on it's way back. However, I see it continuing to wear a groove in the upper all the way to the rear of the travel, although the depth is only limited by the distance it is sticking out from behind the gas key. So you see it could potentially wear farther and father back into the upper but it is not going to keep going deeper and deeper into the metal. It is only going to go as deep as distance the cam pin is not aligned in front of the gas key. Make sense????

Who has a DI gun they can check??

That does make some sense. I guess with DI sytems, gases being vented from the bolt carrier and gas rings keep the bolt in the foward position after each shot before it starts to rotate towards the rear of the receiver. We're talking maybe hundreds or thousands of a second.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=206&t=170064&page=3

I get my new JP bolt + cam pin this Thurs, and I'm testing it out this weekend. I'll let everyone know what happens....

BTW, has anyone tried running with the gas rings installed on the bolt? Maybe it's enough resistance to prevent the bolt and cam pin from knocking around when the carrier is pushed rearward.

I think that's exactly what's going on. There is a fraction of a millimeter between the lugs being unlocked enough to withdraw vs full bolt forward extension. I think the gas pushed it all the way home so this was never an issue for DI ARs, and piston driven ARs just unlock the lugs enough to start the BCG rearward and that's it - the bolt is not rammed home straight by any gas. The solution is a trimmed or some sort of low profile cam pin top, or a carrier cam pin channel that is more angled to ride the cam pin to full bolt forward position and then pull the bolt rearward. I don't think the worn groove on the upper receiver with get any deeper just longer.

Swat_dude makes sense, thanks for the research. My 415, groove and all, has yet to malfunction.

so it seems that grinding your cam pin down would be an acceptable solution?

I wouldn't worry about it but I would break the gun in really good and make sure any metal that has flaked off is thouroughly cleaned. Also, make sure you check your trigger and maybe even blow it out with some compressed air.

There are several guys with DI guns reporting the same groove, which means their bolts are unlocking from the lugs too before the gas has pushed the bolt all the way out of the carrier. Like I said before, it won't get deeper, just maybe longer for a time.

POF 16" upper on DPMS lower.
Appr. 400 rounds thru it. Purchased upper in 2008.
Exact same groove as everyone else. No other issues, though.

My friend has a complete DI Stag Arms 16" with about the same amount of rounds thru it. He has almost no wear marks in his.

I'm thinking about selling the POF and buying two Stag arms.

Due to this thread I sent a this question to LWRC and the following is the question and the reply (edited to remove names). Joe has been my contact there at LWRC for some time and has always provided outstanding service. I have several DI (S&W x 2,and a Colt). I also have a POF, same thing. I would tend to believe that LWRC and POF would have let us know it there was a danger or catastrophic failure.:


Question:


From: Jason
Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 3:20 AM
To: Joe Devens
Subject: Groove in upper

Joe,

I'm sure this issue was addressed in the LWRC forums but I couldn't find it. After reading about a groove created by the cam pin in a AR15.com forum thread, I checked to see if my LWRCM6A2 had the same problem and it does. There is a picture in the following link: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=206&t=170353

A groove is forming in my upper that looks exactly the same as the one pictured in the thread.

Is this dangerous? There are metal shards in the lower and in the upper.

Has there been a fix for this yet? How can I prevent this?

I apologize for asking but I figured I'd go to you due to the many varied answers.

Thank you.

Jason



REPLY:



Received: Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 9:21AM


Jason,

The groove you are seeing is completely normal. And is common among even DI rifles. It is a result of the cam pin acting on that surface during the feeding operation. It is not dangerous and it will stop eventually.

Joe Devens

LWRC International
815 Chesapeake Drive
Cambridge, MD 21613
410-901-1348 PH
410-228-1775 FX

?? My bolt on the LWRC has gas rings. Does anyone NOT have gas rings on their pistons?

SoCalTrojanSoldier,

Thank you for emailing them and sharing their response with us.

Yes.

Thank You very much for that bit of info.

I just wish POF would have taken the time to respond to the issues here.

Maybe my next gun will be a LWRC.

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