CMMG Qubec accuracy question

First post here so Hi everybody.

I have owned a CMMG Qubec .22 with 16" barrel for a short time now. Sure like it's feel and operation.
I have a S&W 15-22 but the CMMG shoots and feels more like my main .223 AR.

I any case this thing shoots pretty decent groups for a .22 not using target ammo. Been pretty consistent in the 1.25"-1.5" groups at 50 yards.

What I am asking or wondering about is the above 1.25"-1.5" groups are (IF) I don't count the first 2-3 shots. The first 2 and sometime first 3 go high right maybe an inch or two then it seems to settle down and shoot pretty good.

Anybody else have this happen on theirs or know of a reason it is happening.
I'm thinking maybe the bullet lube but it seems to happen with different brands of ammo.
I'm not complaining as it does shoot pretty consistently once a few warm up shots are fired.
Just wondering why, or maybe something I can do differently to elevate it. (I know, I know- hold low left for the first couple of shots!)

Welcome MilDot!

Do you see the behavior if you single feed each shot from an otherwise empty mag? In other words, have you tried shooting a group with the rounds fed from the magazine one at a time?

Sometimes autos are known to have a feed effect on the rounds and the magazine pressure is the cause. A full magazine with too much pressure affects the first round and thus opens up the group.

Sometimes, depending on ammo, the pressure from the mag spring can cause the first round to be forced up, hitting the chamber and deforming the bullet slightly. This will cause a different flight.
As the mag breaks in more, it will probably settle down.
Don't over clean your .22 barrel. Clean and buzz the chamber will help. But stay out of the rifling when buzzing.
Clean the bore when accuracy drops off.
Use copper wash ammo. Don't use Remington. The bullet profile is different and can cause chambering problems. It's also extremely dirty.
Dave

Thanks RegionRat / Shadowcop

That's a good point on the magazine spring pressure and the bullet deformation.

I will try single feeding to see if that makes a difference.

I have had some feeding issues when I first got the gun (bent rounds) –– (still fighting with some ammo brands in some mags).

I have also seen some bullet deformation on a few rounds that FTF. So maybe that bullet tip deformation is something to look at. I will try a couple of hand cycled then look at the bullet tips as well as allow auto cycle load but then hand cycle the round out without firing & inspect the bullet tip.

Strange thing is once it gets past the first few rounds it seems to do pretty good even with re-loaded mags but I usually load less rounds into the follow up mag re-loading.

Thanks, you guys have given me some things to look at and check out.

Chuck a bore brush in a drill. Put some oil on it and let it spin in the chamber (stay out of the rifling)
This will polish the chamber and aid in smooth feeding.

36 gr. will feed better than 40 gr.
Dave N

There are reasons that bolt guns will, as a general rule, be more accurate then semi-auto's. Also, why some semi-auto's are more accurate than others. A tiny dent on the nose of a bullet will cause its trajectory to change. As these gentlemen have so clearly explained the first round or so will flip up differently and hit the chamber differently causing a change of impact. Its part of nature of a semi-auto. Your CMMG dedicated upper will shoot quite acceptably for the type of rifle that it is. You can build an upper that will shoot better. However, as you can probably figure out, its going to cost more...a fair amount more. Its the difference between a lot of quality hand work (expensive) and a mass produced barrel (less expensive) that is made to tolerate all sorts of ammo, good and bad.

From what you are describing your rifle is shooting pretty good. As with any .22, try different ammo until you find the one that works best in your rifle. Some bullets are harder and deform less while chambering, resulting in them being a bit more accurate than others. Experiment and find out what she wants, you will be rewarded.

Evening forever4

I'm not complaining about the accuracy, as after a few shots have been fired that is very acceptable. I have a couple of bolt .22's that will definitely shoot better but if the CMMG will shoot 1.25''-1.5" @50 yards I can easily live with that. So that means the barrel is probably within reason or it wouldn't shoot that good ever.

My query is about the first few shots going to a different POI than the 4'th through 20'th.
A nicked bullet tip during feeding is maybe part of the issue so I am going to look into that. I did manually run about 20 rounds (unfired) through the gun tonight and do see some gouging of the bullet tips. With one mag it is pretty notable, with the Gen2 mag a bit better and with a modified S&W 15-22 mag only a bit of scuffing but no deformation other than the 1st round out of the mag. The thing is they all look about the same (except first round out of mag) so you would think that (if) nicked bullets were the problem I would have an issue on all shots not just the first few.

It's not the end of the world on the first couple of rounds going out of the main group just something I would like to understand and maybe remedy.

I have a game plan (I think) to hand load single rounds to see what if any difference that makes.

Then try all the different mags with just 10 rounds in each.

Then work with a new mag (hopefully on it's way) to get the rounds to feed smoothly without bullet tip gouging.

Also, hopefully as I get more rounds through the gun it (and the mags) will break in a bit more and feed better.

Then again maybe it is none of the above and simply a bullet lube problem that takes a few rounds to get a consistent barrel lube

Sounds like a good plan. Lets see what happens and please get back to us.

I'm really diggin my dedicated upper. Just can't stop grinning.....

I know you were OK with how it shot...after those first few wayward rounds, that came through. On your magazines, which may be causing some of the problem, you are on the right track by giving them a partial load. I will tell you that I suspect the new generation Evolution magazines might help this issue, if you have not tried them yet. They have a nice shape internally on the feed lips to help properly guide the rounds up and into the chamber without them flipping up at a wild steep angle. If you get a chance to try one of these mags, take it and see how it goes.

The single loading of the rounds is always a great idea when looking at the problem you have. And, this problem is not unique to your gun. There are several other designs out there where we hear of the exact same problem. Don't over look the ammo....the bullets do vary widely.

Good luck with your rifle. The mag thing will be solved. It sure sounds like you have a nice gun there.

Morning forever4

I do have one new generation modular mag and one of the older gray 26 round mags.

From my hand cycling last night the new generation mag actually nicked the bullet tip more than the older design gray mag. The S&W 15-22 mag I have modified to fit seems to feed the best with the least bullet tip damage. But this was only cycling by hand. The 15-22 mag also probably has 4000-5000 rounds through it from past 15-22 usage.

I plan on doing some more testing over Christmas weekend with all the mags and by trying different gun loadings (eg single bullet, partial mag full, etc)

Today my plan is to mark the bullet case with a scribe (to tell round orientation) then put a dab of lipstick on the bullets and hand cycle to see if I can determine what part of the chamber is nicking the bullet.

The thing I keep coming back to is (IF) it is indeed a mag issue why only the first mag full. The first 2-3 shots hit out of the group then the entire rest of the mag full hit pretty close together. Then a quick (full mag) reload still hits in the group (all,, even the first 2-3 shots from that mag).

I will keep trying different things and report back here if I find a reason.


You say "There are several other designs out there where we hear of the exact same problem" –– Any idea what is causing this on the other designs? That might help point me in a productive direction.

"Other designs" refers to other semi-auto rifle designs. For example, some swear their Marlin 60's outshoot a Ruger 10/22. Part of this is the way the bullets are fed up into the chamber. On the M-60 the rounds are lifted up, pretty square to the barrel so they can slide straight into the chamber. They get less deformed as a result compared to the Ruger. On the .22 AR's the design is limited by the fact we are taking a 5.56 designed rifle and trying to make it work with .22 ammo. This results in some built in limitations. If you change too much you start redesigning the rifle and its no longer an AR.
Again, try different bullets as some "nick" less than other which allow them to be more accurate.

I like a challenge so I would enjoy your project...always fun to isolate and correct an issue.

Update:

Well after some more shooting, trying another (new) mag with a bit more spring pressure, then trying basically hand (individually) loading & mag feed loading I am getting closer (I think) but it still shoots the first couple of rounds a bit high right.

What I have noticed in my trails is the bolt doesn't always close completely on a cold gun/ cold chamber. I'm thinking the chamber is still a bit tight & maybe needs a bit more buzzing & more shooting (we'll see what time & bullets downrange brings)

I any case I have found that this gun is fairly critical on the ammo used as far as tight groupings go. Fortunately it seems to group best with my .22 of choice so that is a good thing.

At 50 yards shooting at a (3) 2" dots this morning I started (first shot of day) by holding at 7 o'clock on the first 2" dot & the first round went just about center, next shot I held 7 o'clock a bit higher & bullet went just right/low of center. Then I shot the remaining 8 shots from that mag holding dead center & ended up with a 1-1/4" group all inside the 2" dot.

Next 10 round mag holding dead center X gave me another 1-1/4" group with 2 out a bit or it would have been under 1"

Next 20 round mag full gave me a somewhat ragged group but it just made 1-1/2" with most in just over 1-1/4". (to me this is fantastic on a commercial .22 semi-auto using CCI green tag)

I'm going to shoot it a while as is to see if more break-in will help the first few (cold gun) shots. I hate to mess with anything at the moment as it is grouping pretty darn good for an AR type .22.

Cold bore. You already have the answer.
My Anschutz takes 3 fouling shots to hit dead center everytime. Nothing I can do about it. This is the reason in small bore rifle competition, they always allow 3 to 4 fouling shots before scoring

No relationship between the fouling in an Anschutz and what the OP is seeing. If my Anschutz changed during "sighters" I would throw it away. (Just kidding)
Fouling and sighters are different. The OP isn't fouling between magazines.

My Anschutz doesn't show a flyer within any magazine run, or the next three or four for that matter. Within the 40 rounds in a silhouette match, it runs dead nuts unless I just cleaned or changed ammo types.

Imagine if you had to hold your Anschutz off for just the first round? You don't see that after fouling and just because you changed magazines.

The bore and bbl temp on a biathlon rig gets nice and cold between laps, and there are no flyers like what the op described and we don't shoot sighters or foulers for that matter, once we are started.

This is more common in semi-autos by far. Not unheard of in a pump or bolt, but it isn't fun when it happens in one of those either. It is not always due to cold bore and often as not it is due to the magazine feeding the first round differently than the rest due to spring preload and feed ramp issues.

My Anschutz is an 1813 supermatch, single shot hand fed and w/o magazine. With a CLEAN COLD barrel the first shot is always 2" off at 10 o'clock, the next sht is about 1" closer, third shot another 1/2 inch closer, 4th shot is dead center. Subsequent shots w a cold barrel is always dead center, Hence fouling shots. As such w/ biathlon match you are getting center hits even w/ a cold barrel and do not require resighting. ( quote: it runs dead nuts unless I cleaned......)I would not call this a flyer. This phenomenon (clean cold barrel shot POI shift compared w/ hot dirty barrel)occurs w many bolt action center fire high grade sniper rifles also. Although my custom GAP bull barrel Remington does not do this

OK, a bit more to add to the ongoing saga.

Yesterday I started cold barrel again but this time I left the gun & filled mag out in my truck all night at about 21°f.
For some reason (or colder reason) the first 3 shots went w-a-y farther out of group than the previous cold barrel initial shots did.

It was about 22°f at firing time with no wind. The first shot went better than 5" low, the next one went 3"high, the 3rd went a bit high right, then the shots settled in to a bit over 1-1/2" group over the next 10 shots.

Next mag 10 shot group went a bit over 1-3/8".

This morning I went out again (about 28°f) the gun was left outside in the truck again but the loaded mag was brought into the house.

1st shot again went low about 3" the 2nd went high right about 2" the 3rd went very high in the 2" dot. The reminder grouped to a spread-out 1-5/8".

I still don't know what I'm dealing with but the temperature thing might be pointing to the bullet lube from the last outing being a bit sticky from sitting in the cold all night.

Still open to any & all suggestions/ideas on what/where to look.

I would like to clean the barrel & start out with no remaining bullet lube in the barrel but the cleaning would definitely give me errant shots on the first few due to the lubricity of the cleaning fluids.

It is true that the .22lr semi-auto AR gun, by the very nature of its design, will
impart some form of bullet nose deformation. I don't really think that any two rimfire
guns will ever behave the same, but this trait is common.

When I build an AR in rimfire for accuracy, I use a few tricks that would make it less
likely to deform the bullet. You've already read about the chamber "buzz," but there is
another simple alteration you can do, and it must be done with great attention to detail.
It is similar to, but different, from the buzz.

As bullet "damage" is typically done as the bullet strikes the top of the chamber's
breach rim, you'll need to focus your attention there. Insert several cleaning patches
or a Q-tip head into the chamber to protect it during the process.

Using a Dremel with a conical buffing wheel coated with non-embedding bore polishing paste
such as J-B's, with the motor rpm at half speed, gently polish the top of the chamber's
breach rim. The goal is to EASE the edge, not chamfer it. Take care to only remove 1/64 to 1/32
of material - only at the top from 10 to 2 on the clock. This should take you no more than one to two minutes total.
So what you've done with this is to accelerate what would normally happen over several thousand rounds
during break-in.

Clean up the paste, patch out the bore removing all residue of the paste that may have gotten by the
patch. Now cycle the gun with live cartridges and compare the bullets to the one's prior to this
alteration. This usually goes a long way to reducing harm to the bullet as it enters the chamber.

While you've got the Dremel set up, use the same tool and paste to polish the ramp, (if you haven't
already) and again you'll want to protect the chamber.

Your problem is not bullet lube, nor is it the temperature of the cartridge, if anything related to external
ballistics, it would be the degree of humidity that adversely affects rimfire ammo. Humidity can spoil
the shot; however, I think your issue is mechanical in nature.

Will this solve your problems? Maybe yes and maybe no. It works for me.

Ted

Evening Ted

Thanks for the info.

That is something I might have to address down the road but as of now using a slightly modified mag I have it feeding without a hitch & the overall accuracy is decent (after the first few rounds)

I have hand cycled the first round in & do get just a bit of a divot in the bullet tip about 3/32" back from the tip. I also get that same divot on auto load if I fire one round then remove the next auto loaded round for inspection. Comparing the first 3 into the chamber look almost identical the last 3 into the chamber to me.

But here is the thing: you would think that IF that divot was causing the accuracy problem it would be there ALWAYS not just the fist couple of rounds fired cold. Seeing as I get that slight bullet deformation on all shots why are just the first few on cold barrel going astray? Even second mag full with first round into the chamber being hand cycled in hits in the group.

Problem only seems to happen on cold barrel cold mag first 2-3 shots then all OK after that until gun sits for a few hours again.

This means some work on your part, but it should be fun and give
you the answers you need.

Try putting the loaded magazine in the freezer, and leave the gun outside
if possible (its got to be cold where you are). Then after the mag/ammo has cold
soaked, fire until empty. Do this test more than once. Take notes.

Later, put the rifle and loaded mag in a warm place, like 80 degrees warm
(bright sun indoors through a window in a heated room). Repeat the test, and take notes.

Don't forget to examine the drive bands for damage, they can cause problems, too.
Damaged drive bands cause the bullet to destabilize while in the bore, and once in flight they
remain unstable and POI will shift.

If the results are the same for each test, then it is mechanical. If it works better warm
than cold then I'm a Monkey's Uncle and you have your answer.

If you really want to push the cold ammo/lubricant/bore theory, try the tests with plated ammo
and no bullet lube, and see what you get. Also try the tests with a match grade ammo
from several manufacturers, and see if things improve. It will take time but you can sort it out,
just make the tests repeatable, doing the same thing each time with no changes other than
the brand and quality of the ammo. Remember to concentrate on your aim, breath control, and follow
through. Then repeat the tests with ANOTHER shooter to rule out you being the problem.

Ted

I'm going to ask the obvious here. What are you using for sights?

Scope defect? Not likely to be heat related, but worth a close look to be sure.

Morning Shadowcop

Good point on the sight, I should have included that in my original posting.

I am currently using a leupold mark 4 off of one of my M-4 AR's (that AR shoots just a bit over 1" groups at 100 yards with handloads)––But–– Just to eliminate the scope as the possible cause I have also tried a Nikon 3-9 off of one of my bolt 22's (that gun shoots under 1 moa at 50 yards using CCI green tag.

Plus I have a Burris reflex mounted at 45° on the CMMG but that is only 1 power so with my old eyes even on a good day gives me around 3" groups at 50 yards.

All optics are tight & level.

Here again you would think that if the problem was sights or optics it wouldn't JUST show up on the first 2-3 shots on a cold barrel.

Once the first shots are done the gun groups pretty good for a 22 semi-auto so as far as I can tell (so far every morning) my issue is ONLY on the first 2-3 shots of the day then all is well accuracy wise until the gun sits for an extended period again.

Morning AFSC2W171Z

Thanks, I have sort of been working on the hot gun cold gun hot mag cold mag theory. It's difficult to get the consistency as the weather here has been strange lately.

Definitely cold gun cold mag (low 20°s) brings on the first 2-3 round flier issue.

Cold gun warm mag also gives my the first rounds fliers.

I haven't completely tested the warm gun cold mag yet as the gun sits in the cold as I walk down range & set my targets up. (something I was planning on testing this week though)

" Remember to concentrate on your aim, breath control, and follow
through. Then repeat the tests with ANOTHER shooter to rule out you being the problem."––-

I don't think this is the problem as after the first 3 shots I get very acceptable groups. Also I can shoot my bolt 22 on same bench, same weather, same ammo, same sitting to 1" groups from shot #1 on.

I am definitely not a perfect shooter but have been shooting for many many years so if I shoot a bad shot I know it even before the bullet even impacts the target.

O.K., it is beginning to come clear to me that you may have a chamber issue.

Cold gun = loose chamber

Loose chamber = fliers

Warm gun = tight chamber

Tight chamber = tight group

Just a hunch, go figure.

Ted

Afternoon AFSC2W171Z

You would think cold gun = tight chamber as the steel chamber should contract as it gets cooler.

This is somewhat evident by the bolt closing with more difficulty on a very could (left outside overnight) gun.

A warm chamber is a happy chamber (part of the complex science of internal ballistics).

When I refer to the chamber being "tight" when warm I am referring to the ability of the barrel's chamber
to grip successive rounds intimately as the cartridge expands during ignition. A warm or hot barrel will transfer heat
to the cartridge prior to ignition, causing a very slight expansion of the case, this is a good thing. This expansion is
increased at the instant ignition takes place. During ignition the case rapidly expands and transfers heat to the chamber
walls, and eventually, combined with the expanding gas throughout the bore, heats the entire barrel. With the chamber heated,
the subsequent cold rounds chambered are pre-heated, and will more tightly grip the chamber walls prior to ignition.

An oversize chamber, one at the outer limits of SAAMI specs, will hardly ever expand at a rate slow enough where the case can keep up.
When hot it may never be tight enough, and when cold it may be just at the dimension where accuracy suffers. The rimfire case
being so thin, will expand in a non-uniform rate and cause a slight misalignment of the bullet and bore. This is yet another reason rimfires are
so hard to make shoot consistently well.

When really cold, like below freezing, a good chamber may take twenty or more firings before it starts to transfer heat to
the case, and also throughout the firearm. A cold cartridge combined with a cold barrel that has some internal stresses,
add up to a loss of accuracy and fliers. Generally, heat will equalize some of these stresses and allow the barrel to resonate
in way that increases accuracy. Rimfire barrel harmonics are hard to moderate, especially when cold.

Most firearms have a sweet spot of temperature where everything works in harmony. While this sweet spot is generally warm, too hot
will be as disastrous (if not more so), than too cold. Many competition shooters time their shots to stay within the sweet spot's
temperature range. I'm starting to ramble on, so I'll go back to saying a warm chamber is a happy chamber.

Ted

If I am shooting for groups, I always run a few rounds down the barrel before ever attempting groups. Not just with .22

Evening Shadowcop

Yes, that is a good practice on shooting paper at the range but I also shoot steel silhouettes so cold barrel first shots count. A miss puts you right out so first & second shot accuracy is important to me.

A bit more follow up on the cold barrel FRF's (fist round fliers).

With some more testing & shooting I am no closer to the answer but it seems the colder it is outside the worse the first couple of shots go astray. At first they would go out in the same direction but with the temps now in the low 20's to high teens the first rounds can go in any direction & anywhere from a little out to 3" out.

I have systematically tried ALL my mags including the S&W 15-22 mags. It seems like the 15-22 mags are the best but the first cold barrel rounds are going random enough to make any difference between mags difficult to discern.

Even hand loading (no mag) for "every" shot the first few (cold barrel) always go out farther than the remaining.

One of the things I fought with was leaving the gun at the (COLD) shooting station while I set up my targets. So the last few days I have put the loaded mag in my pocket then slinging the gun under my coat while I put up targets. This might help slightly but sure doesn't eliminate the first round fliers.

I'm still thinking last outing bullet lube congealed in the barrel might be the issue so the last couple of outings I have lightly cleaned the barrel after shooting then a light oily patch then patch until a clean patch comes out. This is showing a difference but I still get the first few round fliers but not as far out of the group. The problem it brings on is while the first cold barrel fliers are not as far out of the group I get a significantly larger group until I have fired 8-10 shots to season the barrel.

Any way I'm still working on the problem––

Just for a comparison I took my S&W 15-22 out this morning along with my CMMG & the 15-22 was all over the target until 5 shots were fired but that gun hasn't been shot in a couple of weeks & wasn't cleaned after shooting. Neither gun jammed in the cold 18°f this morning.

Understand with the 15/22 being a polymer upper, POI can very well change with temperature.
Dave N

Yes, definitely the polymer upper (& lower for that matter) will change the group position on the target a bit from very cold to very hot due to a higher expansion rate. But that doesn't explain why the first 5 rounds went astray then the thing settled down & grouped as normal.

Problem with the 15-22 is it doesn't group that good even on a good day. Just way too much compliance in the barrel mounting area & a very flexible fore end that can flex the receiver at the barrel attaching bushing depending on how hard you pull it into the front rest bag.

Switch to a plated bullet sans lube and compare after patching out the bore.

I still maintain you have a chamber/barrel issue where the chamber is on the + side of tolerances.
Also, the barrel may not have been properly stress relieved and won't straighten until warmed.

Ask for a new barrel, what could it hurt?

Ted

Morning Ted

Thanks for the input.

I have played with some plated bullets but it is bulk so doesn't group that good even after shooting a few.
I did try to shoot 20 rounds of plated bullets for last mag of the day then go back to the lead bullets for cold barrel test the next morning & it was different. Still had the cold barrel fliers but not so random & mostly in the same direction from spot center.

That barrel stress thing has been talked about & suggested. The problem I have with that theory is that should give me repeatable cold barrel fliers not random cold barrel fliers. The last few days (very cold out) I have shot the same target spot for the first 3 rounds of the day & it looks like a shotgun buckshot pattern rather than a group. After the 4 cold barrel shots I then move onto a fresh dot & the grouping moves pretty close to center. Even allowing the gun to sit on the shooting bench (@ 18°f) as I walk down range to change targets then duck in to have a sip or two of hot coffee it still groups decently after starting to shoot again. With the bolt open there is no doubt in my mind that gun barrel & chamber is very cold again. At least colder than first cold barrel rounds on a 40°f morning & even at 40°f I get the cold barrel fliers.

I don't know how chamber size figures in here but that should also be effected by the time it takes to change targets @ 18°f & it doesn't seem to be. Gun needs to sit for a few hours to get the cold barrel fliers.

Still working on a solution or at least an understanding.

I know it is a challenge for you and you'd like to puzzle it out. But
should you really have to? If you took your car for an alignment
and when it came back you couldn't steer it, would you take it back
to the garage that worked on it or would you try to fix it yourself?

The issue you have encountered is based solidly in the science of
internal ballistics and the art of barrel making. To fully understand what is happening
may be well beyond your means of scientific investigation. I've given you the benefit
of my 50+ years experience as a competitive shooter, certified/licensed instructor/coach,
and USAF trained armourer.

I wish you luck in your quest, but I still urge you to simply pick up the phone and ask
for Customer Service.

Ted

Ted

Thanks for your insight.

Yes, I would take my car back if I had it aligned & couldn't steer it afterwards.

But on the other I wouldn't have taken it in for an alignment to begin with if I didn't understand
the reason it needed to be aligned.

I sure wouldn't take it in to be aligned if my drivability problem was only for a low tire or bad roads.


I will definitely send it back if I determine the problem is an incorrectly made barrel or a chamber issue. On the other hand being an engineer I have a basic need to understand the problem before just closing my eyes & blindly sending it in with hope in my heart.

I don't shoot to put food on the table or to survive, I shoot for the fun & the learning part of shooting. Hopefully I can learn something from this problem as well as having fun shooting & playing with things as I do.

I understand and wish you luck.

If you can, pick up a copy of Julian Sommerville Hatcher's book on ballistics. It will take you
some reading but you will gain tremendous insight in to what is going on.

Ted

Ted

Thanks for the book info.

I just checked Amazon & I see he has quite a few books that include ballistics. Any chance you can furnish the exact title of the book you are referring to?

That's funny. I've had guys out right call me a liar for stateing that.
Dave N

You can certainly ask for a new barrel. But from what you are describing with your needs, a match barrel seems to be in order. The stock barrels are by no means a match barrel, nor or they priced as a match barrel.
Dave N

Oh my aching balls! NEVER!!!!
Even S&W recognizes the effects of heat on their "Polymer Wonder," and Dave,
you are one of the tireless guys who hold this subject together. You shouldn't have
to concern yourself with those who will never get a clue.

Mildot, I forgot to tell which of Hatcher's books:

Julian S. Hatcher, 'Hatcher's Notebook,' Harrisburg, Pa., Military Service Pub. Co., 1947 [Riling 2596]

Julian S. Hatcher, Glenn P. Wilhelm and Harry J. Malony, 'Machine Guns,' Menasha, Wisc., George Banta Pub. Co., 1917 [Riling 1833]

Julian S. Hatcher, 'Textbook of Firearms Investigation,' Plantersville, S.C., Small-Arms Technical Pub. Co., 1935 [Riling 2171]

Mildot, the first and last will give you the clues you are looking for.

Ted

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