AR15 or 375H&H for bear?

If you live in an area where there is a risk of bears roaming through your yard or whatnot, would a semi-auto 223 be sufficient or would you go with something bigger like a 375H&H mag?

Not really for hunting but more like quick defense should one attack.

.375. Duh.

Why not use a full auto paintball gun instead? I think they have some rounds with pepper spray...

Originally Posted By mb74: If you live in an area where there is a risk of bears roaming through your yard or whatnot, would a semi-auto 223 be sufficient or would you go with something bigger like a 375H&H mag? Not really for hunting but more like quick defense should one attack.

I would choose neither, but given your two choices, I would go with the .375 H&H.

ban him...

I thought semi-auto might work because of the ability to fire several rounds one-after-the-other as opposed to using a bolt action. In the end, I guess 1 shot is all you need.

fuck, take a .22 with a 50 round mag

TXL

A 375H&H AR15?

Sign me up!

ZM

Originally Posted By mb74: I thought semi-auto might work because of the ability to fire several rounds one-after-the-other as opposed to using a bolt action. In the end, I guess 1 shot is all you need.

You need a heavy, deep penetrating bullet. You won't get a chance to fire a whole magazine.

Originally Posted By ZekeMenuar: A 375H&H AR15? Sign me up! ZM

Hummmm, I wonder if the Cobb rifle can be modified to use the .375 Ruger?

Let's start a rumor......

12ga slug

Originally Posted By RedFalconBill: Originally Posted By ZekeMenuar: A 375H&H AR15? Sign me up! ZM Hummmm, I wonder if the Cobb rifle can be modified to use the .375 Ruger? Let's start a rumor......

The Ruger is designed to fit in a standard (30-06) action. The case is fatter then the H&H and holds 6% more powder. The bolt face is .532(I think )

If a case with those parameters will fit in the Cobb, then let's get this s**t on the road and build one.
What the heck, neck the 375 Ruger up to 416 and you can be the first to hunt Cape Buffalo with an AR.

Gone way off topic now. Drooling on the keyboard. Dead kittens etc................

ZM

AR-10 in 7.62x51
AR-10 in 260 Remington
AR-10 in 338 Federal
M1 Garand in 30-06

Originally Posted By mb74: If you live in an area where there is a risk of bears roaming through your yard or whatnot, would a semi-auto 223 be sufficient or would you go with something bigger like a 375H&H mag? Not really for hunting but more like quick defense should one attack.

your kidding me right?


Go do some reading before you post.

Heres some help
www.accuratereloading.com
www.24hourcampfire.com

Accurate Reloading.com has some of the finest hunters out there, period, posting on there, everything from Africa to Alaska to Austrailia.

And those guys have double guns, so they know the 375's the 416s 458, 500 NE etc.

In short, if your going to go after bear with a 223... I hope you set your will up ahead of time.


With big bores, the magic number is around 2400 FPS with something of 300 grains or more, I believe. Perfect combo of expansion and penetration. Barnes X bullets, as well as the woodleighs are choice. Cast performance ammo as well in lever guns of the 45-70 variety, if you want to use an AR, get a 458 SOCOM or 50 Beowulf upper.

More reading for you.
www.458socomforums.com
www.50beowulf.com

now, read up and then tell us your decision...

Originally Posted By SHIVAN: AR-10 in 7.62x51 AR-10 in 260 Remington AR-10 in 338 Federal M1 Garand in 30-06

or anything in the AR10 variety as well...

You need at least a .416 Rigby if you are going for brownies.

The .375 is for ungulates.

Many African nations have set 375 as the MIN for Buff, and it does do the job. Id think it would work dandy on Black Bears (dont know what bear your referring to but they are most plentiful in the usa so its just a educated guess here).

Also, in this country you cant legally hunt bear with a 223 so that should answer your question pretty easily.

I do like to hunt with my AR when its possible, and a Big Bore AR 15 or a AR 10 makes the very possible.

Both, but the .375 H&H first...

Originally Posted By mb74: If you live in an area where there is a risk of bears roaming through your yard or whatnot, would a semi-auto 223 be sufficient or would you go with something bigger like a 375H&H mag? Not really for hunting but more like quick defense should one attack.

I was in a pretty bad mood until I saw this... Then the Ban Him.... Thank you so very much for making my day. Hell I will probably be laughing about this for the next month or so.

Go for a 338 federal or 338/06 that should take care of any pesky bear troubles. Use a Mauser based action to ensure that you don't have any extraction troubles. .223... LOL ...

I've ignored this thread long enough.

Obviously very few of the posters in this thread have even seen a bear in the woods, much less shot one and looked to see what damage was done by which round.

The average bear that has been killed on the bear hunts I have been on has been 150 lbs.

2 have been 300lbs. all of the rest were much smaller. ALL of the ranges were between 50 yards to 5 yards.

I have hunted in both Minnesota and Idaho and both places say the average Black bear weighs 150lbs.

Certainly it is possible for bears to get extremely large......but it is very rare. The bear I shot is tied for 56th largest EVER (taken with a bow as judges by P&Y score) and it weighed 300lbs.

I could have easily killed his ass with a .223. He would not have had a chance.

All of that said, "Is the .223 the best choice to take a charging bear down" No! Will it kill the average black bear.....Fuck yeah.

If I was going after any of the Big 5 in Africa, I would take a bow. None of the ones I own now, but I would only go with a bow.

BUT If I decided to hunt with a rifle, it certainly would be with a double .375. All of those guys that do it for a living can't be wrong.

A Black bear is not a Rhino..........I've had both of those animals within 5 yards of me. They don't compare......

Originally Posted By krpind: ...A Black bear is not a Rhino...

I must be a natural pessimist. When he said "bear", I automatically assumed I would be encountering a coastal brown bear.

To which, of course, even my answer was marginal - but far better than 5.56.

Originally Posted By krpind: I've ignored this thread long enough. Obviously very few of the posters in this thread have even seen a bear in the woods, much less shot one and looked to see what damage was done by which round. The average bear that has been killed on the bear hunts I have been on has been 150 lbs. 2 have been 300lbs. all of the rest were much smaller. ALL of the ranges were between 50 yards to 5 yards. I have hunted in both Minnesota and Idaho and both places say the average Black bear weighs 150lbs. Certainly it is possible for bears to get extremely large......but it is very rare. The bear I shot is tied for 56th largest EVER (taken with a bow as judges by P&Y score) and it weighed 300lbs. I could have easily killed his ass with a .223. He would not have had a chance. All of that said, "Is the .223 the best choice to take a charging bear down" No! Will it kill the average black bear.....Fuck yeah. If I was going after any of the Big 5 in Africa, I would take a bow. None of the ones I own now, but I would only go with a bow. BUT If I decided to hunt with a rifle, it certainly would be with a double .375. All of those guys that do it for a living can't be wrong. A Black bear is not a Rhino..........I've had both of those animals within 5 yards of me. They don't compare......

The record for a black bear in PA is ~ 800 lbs. One of my neighbors in the mountains has a mount of the 600 lb bear he took a few years ago. The median size of the bears taken during the bear season here is a little over 200 lbs. Most of the state has a 2 day bear season, some parts, three day; where my cabin is it's 5 days.

I've seen a couple of bears on my property while deer hunting; one was on all fours chasing a doe; it was taller at the shoulder than the doe was, and we get some beefy does up here.

My lightweight hunting rifle is a 338 WinMag. More gun than I need for deer or a small bear, but you never know what might come out of that raspberry bramble...

The Alaskan Fish and Wildlife site has extensive advice on caliber selection.

They strongly suggest hunters not "over gun" due to the typical reacton to "too much gun" (no proficency with it since the shooter hates to shot it).

The venerable .30'06 takes more game, including coastal brownies, than any other cartridge in AK.

Personally, I like the CZ 550 American Safari in .375 H&H, but its heavy at 9 lbs, so the Tikka T3 lightweight in .338 Win Mag looks pretty sweet at 6+ lbs and 2/3rds the price. I just wish it had iron sights.

My uncle killed a poler bear with a 5.56 fmj, People WAY over think this stuff

Originally Posted By ar-steve: My uncle killed a poler bear with a 5.56 fmj, People WAY over think this stuff

Ok, and how many people do you think have shot, but not killed browns, polar, and others with calibers greater than 5.56?

Probably a far greater amount than the one story you have.

A "clue" is that most places that have bear tags, for large species, specify a minimum caliber. That isn't because they feel like it. They do it because they take a census of the hunters and the rifles used, and their success rate.

If a bear charged me, and all I had was a 5.56, then I guess I'd be using a 5.56 and aiming for the eye sockets, nasal canal, etc.

Anecdotal stories don't mean much...

Originally Posted By SHIVAN: Anecdotal stories don't mean much...

What it means is, as always, shot placement is more important than caliber.....always.

Originally Posted By SHIVAN: Originally Posted By ar-steve: My uncle killed a poler bear with a 5.56 fmj, People WAY over think this stuff Ok, and how many people do you think have shot, but not killed browns, polar, and others with calibers greater than 5.56? Probably a far greater amount than the one story you have. A "clue" is that most places that have bear tags, for large species, specify a minimum caliber. That isn't because they feel like it. They do it because they take a census of the hunters and the rifles used, and their success rate. If a bear charged me, and all I had was a 5.56, then I guess I'd be using a 5.56 and aiming for the eye sockets, nasal canal, etc. Anecdotal stories don't mean much...

Its not anecdotal,there is a long history of big brown bears being killed long before belted magnums were around.
The"clue" about regs. They regulate semi autos to 5 rounds ,thats not because you will have more success with limited capacity, its because they feel like it.

Originally Posted By ar-steve: Its not anecdotal...

Alrighty, look up the definition.

...there is a long history of big brown bears being killed long before belted magnums were around. The"clue" about regs. They regulate semi autos to 5 rounds ,thats not because you will have more success with limited capacity, its because they feel like it.

There is also a long history of people using inadequate calibers for game size, "because they could". The results, as expected, were not favorable.

You and I both know that 5.56 full metal jacket is an idiotic choice to purposely hunt polar bear.

If you don't, then I guess I really don't want, or need, to waste more words on your density.

A .223 will kill a bear... eventually.

So will disease.

If it's attacking, you need to stop it NOW and with authority. Not try to recreate a rifle-based Death Star Trench Run against the bear. An AR is a good rifle for a lot of things, but NOT this.

Originally Posted By SHIVAN: Originally Posted By ar-steve: Its not anecdotal... Alrighty, look up the definition. ...there is a long history of big brown bears being killed long before belted magnums were around. The"clue" about regs. They regulate semi autos to 5 rounds ,thats not because you will have more success with limited capacity, its because they feel like it. There is also a long history of people using inadequate calibers for game size, "because they could". The results, as expected, were not favorable. You and I both know that 5.56 full metal jacket is an idiotic choice to purposely hunt polar bear. If you don't, then I guess I really don't want, or need, to waste more words on your density.

The point I am trying to make is shot placement ,Whether black powder,spear or belted magnum.
You though are the rudest person that I have run in to

Originally Posted By ar-steve: The point I am trying to make is shot placement ,Whether black powder,spear or belted magnum.

Then recommend that the OP take an American 180 into the bearwoods. It's got 75rds of 22lr.

If it's shot placement, then the 22lr should do a fine job for you to dissuade a mother bear and cubs.

Good luck with that....

Originally Posted By ar-steve: You though are the rudest person that I have run in to

Here I was starting to think I had lost my touch...

Originally Posted By SHIVAN: Originally Posted By ar-steve: The point I am trying to make is shot placement ,Whether black powder,spear or belted magnum. Then recommend that the OP take an American 180 into the bearwoods. It's got 75rds of 22lr. If it's shot placement, then the 22lr should do a fine job for you to dissuade a mother bear and cubs. Good luck with that....

Shot placement means placing the bullet in a vital organ, a 22lr will not reliably do that to a bear , a 5,56fmj will penetrate.
Its not a "choice" round for bear hunting ,but to compare it to a 22lr? I guess Im dense

The bear I shot was 435 lbs.

I've seen the skull structure and the rest of the skeletal structure of the bear.

Anyone who hunts bear knows that the only way to put down a bear reliably is with a CNS shot or to break bone. It is foolish to rely on a .223 FMJ bullet that is designed to fragment in a human body. Mine took at least three shots with a 30.06; one frontal shot to the center of the chest (while sitting), and two broadside in the boiler room (one at 10 feet). The bear was down but pulling a HEAVY log (downed tree, about 10" diameter) onto itself and gnawing on it for several minutes before it expired.

Hoping that a .223 will stop a large, angry, motivated bear BEFORE IT HAS THE OPPORTUNITY TO KILL YOU is silly. Especially if there are better options available.

Originally Posted By ar-steve: Shot placement means placing the bullet in a vital organ, a 22lr will not reliably do that to a bear , a 5,56fmj will penetrate. Its not a "choice" round for bear hunting ,but to compare it to a 22lr? I guess Im dense

Polar Bears have been known to have fat layers approaching 5" thick. Alaskan Browns, and other coastal grizzlies have been known to have 9" thick fat layers.

From the ammo-oracle:

"As you can see, the wound cavity left by M193 is impressive. The wound profile starts opening up somewhere inside of 3". It is full blown fragmentation between 4" and 7". A torso shot has a very high probability of doing very serious damage to organs, certainly punching a large hole in lungs and/or heart tissue. M193 does seem to have a bit better penetration than M855 as well. Typically the nose of the bullet ends up penetrating to 13-14.5", traveling backwards through tissue."

Of course they are talking about shots on human torsos and organs. Not creatures who weigh over 1,000 pounds.

Most of the wounding mechanism from FMJ will be absorbed in the fat layer of each type of the big bears. Hope for the best?

Nah, I'd prefer to prepare for the worst, and bring a gun capable of handling it. You do whatever you like.

I won't be walking in the woods with bears with a 5.56 -- knock yourself out though. Seriously.

ok let me end this right here and now.
how about settling for the legendary M1a1 or M14 = 20 rounds of good ole 7.62x51 with some good quality rounds like failsafes or barnes x-bullet ect...... fuck even a balistic tip would be very interesting to see perform on a bear.
if that cant do it for you in 1 mag your probably fucked, im not gonna lie to you on this one.

Originally Posted By Wojo: Why not use a full auto paintball gun instead? I think they have some rounds with pepper spray...

Not bad choice.
If you have a 12 with slugs near by and I bet you already own a 12
Unless this post is to help you get a 375
Then i would deffintally get the 375

I carry my ar when we go out berry picking. I feel comfortable with it because i have been taught how to hunt and shoot bears. My cousin has used a 223,243,308. We see big browns and black out camping and other times. There is a brown that is at least 9 ft where we camp running around. If you are not familiar with bears a 308 is the minimun. We have a 12 gauge at fishcamp for my dad and mom. Also carry a 44 mag.

you could use an AR stacked with varmint grenade rounds, soft points, and maybe some incediary rounds if you can get them

In Alaska, you won't hunt without a guide unless you are a resident. You will have someone backing you up with a heavy rifle. IIRC, bush pilots carry a minimum 44 mag pistol and either a shotgun or .338 mag rifle. Ditto on black bears being smaller than browns. For a long time the largest black bear killed in South Carolina was 660 lbs, but didn't get in the hunting record books because it was take with a magnum caliber car bumper. The guys who say stopping a charge is different from hunting are completely correct. A brown bear can run faster than a quarter horse for short distances. If it is charging, you are not going to get time to light off a full mag in semi-auto. Black bears are normally docile, but tell that to the mother of a child bear-killed in the Smokey Mountains National Park.

For me, 30-30 or 30:06 is what I use on hunts for black bears. Brown bears? I guess a trip to the gun store if I ever get hunt to them. My 5.56 is for defense and varmits.

RS

radioshooter, you can hunt Grizzly/Brown Bear in Alaska without a guide if you are accompanied by a relative of suitable closeness (first degree of kinship).

Somewhere on the archives there is a photo of a nice bear or two a member in Alaska took with his .223 XCR...

200 pound brown, 500 pound Grizzly or 1000 pound brown?

Napoleon Dynamite has the answer to this question:

"A freaking 12 gauge, whatdaya think!"

If you're going to use 223, take the front sight off.

That way it will hurt less when the bruin shoves the gun up your ass.

If your intent is not to bear hunt, but just need a defensive firearm to carry against them, I'd look at a six gun in 454 Casull.

I own both calibres. If I was just in my yard I would go with an AR if it was black bear country. If it's grizzly or brownies, then hells yes make it the .375 H&H mag.

I've shot a bear with 7.62 ball. On the little sort of blackie 5.56 would probably be fine. But not on a bear over 300.

What exactly were you doing shooting a doe with a .22 short? Care to clarify your statement?

I guess it depends where you are, If your in big bear country, and have grizzly, or Kodiak then use the 375. If there black bear I personally would feel comfortable with an AR.

Okay, let's boil this down.

Even a lowly .22 could kill a bear. However, your shot placement had better be 100% dead on, there can't be any wind, and the moon needs to be in the right phase.

This is all but entirely impossible. Your shot placement won't be 100% (especially if you're being charged), you can't control the weather on the day when you run into a bear unexpectedly, and luck favors the prepared.

The prepared favor big calibers for bear.



Mike

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