AR15.Com Archives
 If the SHTF in New England, what is your plan?
SShockwave  [Member]
6/23/2011 10:14:43 PM
Just finished watching another amazing race type of reality show where of course there were contestants from New York and Boston as there always is. As usual once removed from the urban tightly packed service laden New England environment, these people crash and burn almost immediately when they have to survive. This blows my mind every time I witness this. "No subway, no taxi, no concrete, uh oh how am I going to survive?!!!!". It set off a light bulb this time, if something bad did happen and you were in this area for business or some other reason, how quickly would you GTFO or what would be your initial preparation steps. The scenario I guess I'm setting is one of massive hysteria because a couple million people in a 30 mile area all of a sudden have their artificial world removed. How have you prepared for this? I'm in this area for business all the time and really only have a laptop, suit and plane ticket home when I'm up there. Thoughts or comments on strategy and supplies (that can be taken in a business flying environment) to deal with the mass hoard of people freaking out?
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_DR  [Team Member]
6/24/2011 2:13:29 AM

If the SHTF in New England my plan would be to get another beer out of the fridge.
kar98k  [Life Member]
6/24/2011 2:19:13 AM
.

Face north and laugh?

Looks like the actual party will be starting at _DR's place. Anything we need to bring besides beer, brisket, and some fixins ?

_DR  [Team Member]
6/24/2011 2:23:33 AM
Originally Posted By kar98k:
.

Face north and laugh?

Looks like the actual party will be starting at _DR's place. Anything we need to bring besides beer, brisket, and some fixins ?



Just some sleeping bags for our New England Brethren when they come straggling in.

A couple boxes of cigars maybe. May even break out some bourbon too.

FDC  [Team Member]
6/24/2011 2:27:04 AM
Anyone remember the Pilgrim Nuke Plant evac route––––––Swim East.

SirSqueeboo  [Life Member]
6/24/2011 2:32:10 AM
Let's take Boston for instance, there is no getting out if SHTF. Drive on I-93, and you'll see what I mean. When I lived in RI, I knew that if SHTF I was going to be trapped for at least a week.

From my experience in the urban areas of New England, I'd just find a good foxhole and wait for the initial stampede to subside.
Duggan  [Team Member]
6/24/2011 2:51:59 AM
You don't bug out because you can't unless you're super early.

You bug in and keep a low profile until things blow over.

If things don't blow over ... You hold fast, or try and fight your way out of the city.

You're also being pretty ridiculous if you think all of the NE is urban, or even suburban.
ElectricSheep556  [Team Member]
6/24/2011 3:02:55 AM

Originally Posted By Duggan:
You're also being pretty ridiculous if you think all of the NE is urban, or even suburban.

As with all generalizations, its not entirely accurate. But its close. Population density of the United States:



Location is definitely a consideration in short or long term SHTF-type events and its pretty clear who will be fucked.
Duggan  [Team Member]
6/24/2011 3:39:38 AM
Ok, so be it ... But I also don't buy into the notion that a bunch of unprepared city slickers are going to have the means or motivation to travel even 50 miles on foot to reach some of the more rural parts ... Let alone 200 miles to reach some really rural parts.

I live in a relatively small city in NY ... If shtf and im forced to bug out, the roads will almost surely be fucked and I'll be on foot. It would suck to travel the 20 miles under the power lines to make it to the nearest friend I have with a place worth going to. I can't imagine thinking it would be a good idea to travel 100+ miles in a random direction with little supplies and no destination.

If you're 50 miles or 5000 miles away, it doesn't matter if the hordes never reach you.
POW-MIAneverforget  [Life Member]
6/24/2011 4:29:23 AM
I grew up about 85 miles north of Boston, so this was something that as I got older did cross my mind. The best bet is to hunker down and hold tight unless the situation or your initial location makes your position absolutely untenable. The area I grew up in was quite a ways from any major highways or travel corridors so my families plan was always to hunker down, keep a low profile and defend our place as required. Neighbors had 300 acres and we had 45 acres and many friends and families in the area were like minded so their were/are plans.

My best guess at what would happen if SHTF in say Boston is that people would begin moving in every direction of the compass, depending on their mode of travel and the disaster that caused them to flee I doubt most would stray farther than 10 miles from the major routes that go north (93, 95, and 89). I'm sure a few would make it out into the more rural areas, but depending on their intentions and attitudes they would find the locals fairly un-friendly to attempts to squat on their land or loot. While the NE seems to have become a bastion for liberalism, a vast majority of the folks living in the more rural areas are very conservative and are more like what you would find in rural KS/MO/TX etc... I think that any mass exodus would falter by the time it reached Concord NH or so and most of the influx would be felt by the larger cities and towns along the southern border of NH and VT and ME.

Kibby  [Team Member]
6/24/2011 4:54:41 AM
Like Duggan said, not all of New England is urban, only Boston area and Hartford. There are a lot of suburbs most everywhere in between, but it gets rural the further you go north. I'm happy to live in a place where you can hear the trees growing. There are a 21 fishable bodies of water within ten minutes in any direction, and there are mountains and forests with plenty of game.

Almost everywhere in New England is a tank of gas away, so I won't say that the hordes wont make it here, so they better come prepared. Most people here are quite xenophobic.
OneLegPaddy  [Team Member]
6/24/2011 5:28:57 AM
Wholesale Political Cleansing

Nothing Personal.....
Former11BRAVO  [Team Member]
6/24/2011 7:04:06 AM
Originally Posted By _DR:

If the SHTF in New England my plan would be to get another beer out of the fridge.


And if I can reach my idiot-relatives who live up there . . . smugly tell them, "I told you so!"








*Quickly followed by, "Don't even bother trying to come here, you dumb, commie fucks! Fuck off and fuck you!"
Badlatitude  [Team Member]
6/24/2011 7:58:39 AM
Originally Posted By _DR:

If the SHTF in New England my plan would be to get another beer out of the fridge.


Mine too

Slopes-2-Shores  [Team Member]
6/24/2011 8:42:45 AM
I'd be loading my post-ban, full cap mags, fixing a bayonet on my bayo-lug and adjusting the stock with my newer Glock on my side all while being glad I moved. All things I couldn't do if in MA.

Seriously though, part of why I moved away from there is the concern about over crowding and the problems that go with it. Not to mention the sheeple would be panicky and unpredictable in a shtf scenario..

Note : Northern New England isn't like the highly populated areas.

-JC
thebev8604  [Member]
6/24/2011 9:01:27 AM
Born and raised in Maine. Moved to CT for work. Should SHTF, I am grabbing the long gun case I have stashed in the top of my closet, my go bag, the nap sack I have full of MRE's and other dry goods and headed NORTH. I figure I am on better terms with knowing what is happening just because I am aware. If I can beat feet 3 hours ahead of the masses I can make it to the Maine state line and hoof it home from there should I have to. IF I was in the position that I had to head out of CT on foot from get go, I would be home with in a week. 100 yards off of any highways is how I would travel. I know some short cuts and some places that you would have to cross bridges. In reality I think the biggest issue I would have would be getting over some of the bridges that create check point style bottle necks.

The Sheeple that are in the big cities are about 98% fucked from get go. At lease where I live in CT, there is a steady supply of water and woods should I have to hold up here for any time. Also the roads here allow cover to be taken should you have to travel them during the day.

I really don't think you ass hats in TX are funny, I hope the immigrants get you first! ha ha jk, but no I really hope they get you first. I will deal with Canadians as time comes ha ha.

Mach  [Team Member]
6/24/2011 9:57:20 AM
I travel for a living. I do it on an airplane.

I bring a TSA safe get home bag every time I leave the house. Kind of an urban survival kit in case I need to survive after an earthquake, civil unrest, flood, etc.

Contents in backpack

2 x 1 liter soft foldable water bags
Iodine water disinfection tablets + the stuff that takes the iodine taste go away.
very small space blanket material sleeping bag
small AA LED flashlight
surefire G2
extra CR123 batteries
Garmin GPS Map60csx
pain pills
IFAK including quick clot
matches
rain gear
vitamins
nitrile gloves and N95 masks
caffeine pills
food bars
AA battery powered cell phone charger
extra AA batteries for flashlight, GPS, and cell phone charger.
LED head lamp with red light mode
immodium AD
whistle
compass
alcohol wipes
tick remover
can opener
duct tape
reading glasses
magnifying glass
anti-itch cream
pepcid AC
pencil
toilet paper
duct tape
aluminum foil
ziplock baggies
microfleece camp towel
space blanket
ear plugs

beansandbullets  [Member]
6/24/2011 10:11:21 AM
If you think it's just New England that will have this problem, so sorry, you are wrong. Any large concentration of city and suburban dwellers is going to do exactly the same thing.

Just as an aside, prepping is not a political thing. The area where I live is very liberal. It's also full of people who are reasonably well prepped, and who have guns. Prepping here is just kind of a way of life. Most of us are adept at living without electricity and have some food stored. We have to be, the power here is not so reliable, especially during winter. This area is far more able to ride a disruption than 99% of America.

As far as the zombie hordes are concerned, I'm not worried. There aren't many city or suburban dwellers who would have the fortitude to make it this far. And if a few do, so what? They may cause a bit of trouble for awhile but if any escape being shot by the locals, no matter. Winter will come sooner or later. That will solve that problem. They'll all freeze or starve. There aren't many who can slog through five feet of snow in subzero temps for any length of time. 30 below keeps out a lot of riff raff.
red_on_black  [Team Member]
6/24/2011 10:11:50 AM
Originally Posted By ElectricSheep556:

Originally Posted By Duggan:
You're also being pretty ridiculous if you think all of the NE is urban, or even suburban.

As with all generalizations, its not entirely accurate. But its close. Population density of the United States:

http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/2322/450pxusa2000populationd.gif

Location is definitely a consideration in short or long term SHTF-type events and its pretty clear who will be fucked.



The dynamic range on that map is pretty poor. It shows my area as having the same population density as NYC, and that's nowhere close to accurate. Here's another representation, which is dated but better at showing the stark contrast between urban and not-so-urban (edit: right click and 'view image' to see at full resolution):


BlammO  [Team Member]
6/24/2011 10:57:42 AM
10 months ago, I was living with my wife & son in the most densely populated county in the most densely populated state in the country –– Fairfield County, Connecticut –– the southern tip of New England, butted up against NYC. I was sweating it out big time. Then almost out of the blue, my employer (which moved us there to corp. HQ 5-1/2 years earlier) offered to move us back to Texas at their expense and with no change in my job. I can only credit that to Divine Intervention.

Anyway, the best bug out plan I could come up with under the circumstances was to load necessities on to my 20' gooseneck trailer and try to make the 2,000 miles back to TX. My BOV was my 2001 Ram dually which was in very good condition (I thought). I kept it ready for such a necessity. So when we did our non-BO move, I learned something about my BO plan: it was doomed. After the moving van loaded the household up and left, I put my metalworking machinery, gun safe, etc. on the trailer and headed out on our 3-day drive. 700 miles into it at 1am, the transmission exploded.

In the end, neither the truck nor the trailer ever made it home; I sold the truck remotely and it's now in Honduras. I had to rent a Budget truck to get my contents home and now I have a trailer stuck near Aberdeen, MD that I'm paying storage on. Had that been a bugout, "royally screwed" would have been an understatement.

I was very involved with emergency management in CT. I feel for the people there. For almost any substantial scenario, the overwhelming majority of the population is really screwed. The vulnerabilities are myriad.
SirSqueeboo  [Life Member]
6/24/2011 11:04:15 AM
Originally Posted By Duggan:
You don't bug out because you can't unless you're super early.

You bug in and keep a low profile until things blow over.

If things don't blow over ... You hold fast, or try and fight your way out of the city.

You're also being pretty ridiculous if you think all of the NE is urban, or even suburban
.


He mentioned NYC and Boston. If something bad happens, you're not getting out of there for a while, especially with Boston. If I got stuck in Boston, I'd either follow the tracks to Attleboro, or start heading for my uncle's place in Salem.
Duggan  [Team Member]
6/24/2011 12:33:12 PM
Originally Posted By SirSqueeboo:
Originally Posted By Duggan:
You don't bug out because you can't unless you're super early.

You bug in and keep a low profile until things blow over.

If things don't blow over ... You hold fast, or try and fight your way out of the city.

You're also being pretty ridiculous if you think all of the NE is urban, or even suburban
.


He mentioned NYC and Boston. If something bad happens, you're not getting out of there for a while, especially with Boston. If I got stuck in Boston, I'd either follow the tracks to Attleboro, or start heading for my uncle's place in Salem.


He said NY, not NYC.

Believe it or not, there is more to NY than NYC.

I agree though ... you're stuck if you're in NYC or Boston. I only go to either place to visit.
ARdvark  [Member]
6/24/2011 12:55:45 PM
if the SHTF in New England, what will you do?




stay in Texas
_DR  [Team Member]
6/24/2011 1:01:06 PM
Originally Posted By BlammO:
10 months ago, I was living with my wife & son in the most densely populated county in the most densely populated state in the country –– Fairfield County, Connecticut –– the southern tip of New England, butted up against NYC. I was sweating it out big time. Then almost out of the blue, my employer (which moved us there to corp. HQ 5-1/2 years earlier) offered to move us back to Texas at their expense and with no change in my job. I can only credit that to Divine Intervention.

Anyway, the best bug out plan I could come up with under the circumstances was to load necessities on to my 20' gooseneck trailer and try to make the 2,000 miles back to TX. My BOV was my 2001 Ram dually which was in very good condition (I thought). I kept it ready for such a necessity. So when we did our non-BO move, I learned something about my BO plan: it was doomed. After the moving van loaded the household up and left, I put my metalworking machinery, gun safe, etc. on the trailer and headed out on our 3-day drive. 700 miles into it at 1am, the transmission exploded.

In the end, neither the truck nor the trailer ever made it home; I sold the truck remotely and it's now in Honduras. I had to rent a Budget truck to get my contents home and now I have a trailer stuck near Aberdeen, MD that I'm paying storage on. Had that been a bugout, "royally screwed" would have been an understatement.

I was very involved with emergency management in CT. I feel for the people there. For almost any substantial scenario, the overwhelming majority of the population is really screwed. The vulnerabilities are myriad.


Sometimes i think the best plan is to bring only what you can fit in one ordinary vehicle, that way if it fails or is damaged, you can quickly commandeer another and quickly transfer precious cargo.

If you are rural, horses are a good BOV option. The only fuel they need grows in the hills and plains, and they do not need roads, and can ford rivers without bridges. In a worst case scenario, you can eat them. (I know, I know, but I said worst - think Donner Pass).
Ductapeman  [Team Member]
6/24/2011 1:11:03 PM
I plan on staying in Tacoma and watching it on television as I clean my guns.
red_on_black  [Team Member]
6/24/2011 1:15:03 PM
Originally Posted By _DR:
Originally Posted By BlammO:
10 months ago, I was living with my wife & son in the most densely populated county in the most densely populated state in the country –– Fairfield County, Connecticut –– the southern tip of New England, butted up against NYC. I was sweating it out big time. Then almost out of the blue, my employer (which moved us there to corp. HQ 5-1/2 years earlier) offered to move us back to Texas at their expense and with no change in my job. I can only credit that to Divine Intervention.

Anyway, the best bug out plan I could come up with under the circumstances was to load necessities on to my 20' gooseneck trailer and try to make the 2,000 miles back to TX. My BOV was my 2001 Ram dually which was in very good condition (I thought). I kept it ready for such a necessity. So when we did our non-BO move, I learned something about my BO plan: it was doomed. After the moving van loaded the household up and left, I put my metalworking machinery, gun safe, etc. on the trailer and headed out on our 3-day drive. 700 miles into it at 1am, the transmission exploded.

In the end, neither the truck nor the trailer ever made it home; I sold the truck remotely and it's now in Honduras. I had to rent a Budget truck to get my contents home and now I have a trailer stuck near Aberdeen, MD that I'm paying storage on. Had that been a bugout, "royally screwed" would have been an understatement.

I was very involved with emergency management in CT. I feel for the people there. For almost any substantial scenario, the overwhelming majority of the population is really screwed. The vulnerabilities are myriad.


Sometimes i think the best plan is to bring only what you can fit in one ordinary vehicle, that way if it fails or is damaged, you can quickly commandeer another and quickly transfer precious cargo.

If you are rural, horses are a good BOV option. The only fuel they need grows in the hills and plains, and they do not need roads, and can ford rivers without bridges. In a worst case scenario, you can eat them. (I know, I know, but I said worst - think Donner Pass).



And that would be a good way to end up dead, depending on exactly what you mean. I'd rather have two vehicles in good shape in convoy and not so overloaded that the occupants of one couldn't be added to the other in case of a mechanical failure.
NHGUNNER  [Member]
6/24/2011 1:53:18 PM
Originally Posted By BlammO:
10 months ago, I was living with my wife & son in the most densely populated county in the most densely populated state in the country –– Fairfield County, Connecticut –– the southern tip of New England, butted up against NYC. I was sweating it out big time. Then almost out of the blue, my employer (which moved us there to corp. HQ 5-1/2 years earlier) offered to move us back to Texas at their expense and with no change in my job. I can only credit that to Divine Intervention.

Anyway, the best bug out plan I could come up with under the circumstances was to load necessities on to my 20' gooseneck trailer and try to make the 2,000 miles back to TX. My BOV was my 2001 Ram dually which was in very good condition (I thought). I kept it ready for such a necessity. So when we did our non-BO move, I learned something about my BO plan: it was doomed. After the moving van loaded the household up and left, I put my metalworking machinery, gun safe, etc. on the trailer and headed out on our 3-day drive. 700 miles into it at 1am, the transmission exploded.

In the end, neither the truck nor the trailer ever made it home; I sold the truck remotely and it's now in Honduras. I had to rent a Budget truck to get my contents home and now I have a trailer stuck near Aberdeen, MD that I'm paying storage on. Had that been a bugout, "royally screwed" would have been an understatement.

I was very involved with emergency management in CT. I feel for the people there. For almost any substantial scenario, the overwhelming majority of the population is really screwed. The vulnerabilities are myriad.


I think this is a perfect example of real-world problems. You think you are prepared and something unexpected happens. Unless of course you follow the one is none and two is one rule. In which case you would have been towing a spare dually in the back of your trailer. Probably not a real scenario.

Thanks for the reality check.

Colt_sporter  [Team Member]
6/24/2011 2:04:35 PM
-Stand by for the hordes of folks fleeing southern New England coming north looking for "something in the country."

-Standing by for other folks thinking they are going to get my help when they bring little to nothing to the table.

-Provide mutual support for a couple ARFCOM/prepper brothers who are gonna need it. Because we all will.

It will be interesting times...
Surf  [Team Member]
6/24/2011 2:06:25 PM
Originally Posted By Mach:
I travel for a living. I do it on an airplane.

I bring a TSA safe get home bag every time I leave the house. Kind of an urban survival kit in case I need to survive after an earthquake, civil unrest, flood, etc.

Contents in backpack

2 x 1 liter soft foldable water bags
Iodine water disinfection tablets + the stuff that takes the iodine taste go away.
very small space blanket material sleeping bag
small AA LED flashlight
surefire G2
extra CR123 batteries
Garmin GPS Map60csx
pain pills
IFAK including quick clot
matches
rain gear
vitamins
nitrile gloves and N95 masks
caffeine pills
food bars
AA battery powered cell phone charger
extra AA batteries for flashlight, GPS, and cell phone charger.
LED head lamp with red light mode
immodium AD
whistle
compass
alcohol wipes
tick remover
can opener
duct tape
reading glasses
magnifying glass
anti-itch cream
pepcid AC
pencil
toilet paper
duct tape
aluminum foil
ziplock baggies
microfleece camp towel
space blanket
ear plugs



Good list.

As for the topic onhand ––––> Surf's up.
Remyrw  [Member]
6/24/2011 2:28:49 PM
First of all, NY is not really considered New England, kind of it's own world. Second, don't confuse the few major urban areas with the rest of the region, most of the area is essentially a blend of suburban and rural. Not massive farms and open land like some areas, but you're not talking major cities.

First thing to do if you were there on business is make sure of your food and water supply, along with any vital meds. Figure a couple days worth of the food and water, more on meds. At that point, chill out unless it's some end of the world type scenario. Most hotels have backup power and the area's pretty good about dealing with power problems anyway.

I'm not saying this is ideal, but it really does take quite a bit to create more than a couple day hiccup, and even then it has to be even worse to make it become a real problem for survival because within about 72 hours you'll have resources coming into the area. I'm not a fan of relying on someone else in these situations, but if you're there traveling you're limited in options and really just need to make it till the airport says your flight's ready or you arrange other transport. Lots of rails around here too so a train out of the area then a flight isn't that tough.
BlammO  [Team Member]
6/24/2011 3:05:23 PM
Originally Posted By Colt_sporter:
-Stand by for the hordes of folks fleeing southern New England coming north looking for "something in the country."

-Standing by for other folks thinking they are going to get my help when they bring little to nothing to the table.

-Provide mutual support for a couple ARFCOM/prepper brothers who are gonna need it. Because we all will.

It will be interesting times...


There are more than 7.5 million souls trapped on Long Island and another 8 million in New York City. In any of a number of quite plausible scenarios ranging from weather to terrorism, the majority of those people are in a dismal situation. High population densities toward New Jersey and to the South make those unrealistic escape routes. You guys in the Berkshires, upstate NY, VT, NH and PA will get the brunt of the exodus, should one occur.

You know what Long Island's evacuation plan is? Shove as many people as possible on the ferries and any other boats that can be mustered and dump them into Bridgeport. After that, they're on their own. Great plan, huh? So enough Port Jefferson area residents might get over to make CT miserable and the rest are screwed. But what can you do? The only better choice is to leave now for good.

Big events at JFK and/or LaGuardia could further cut off land and air routes for Long Islanders. New York City residents are on the edge of being stranded even on a day-to-day basis. There are IIRC 330,000 passengers that ride Metro North every day and a similar number that commute on I-95, so events like 9/11 cut families apart geographically. There are point vulnerabilities in lower New England that would make your hair stand on end.

The region cannot survive more than a few days on its own. There is utterly no hope of feeding the population from local production. Connecticut has the lowest percentage of agricultural-use land in the nation. Anything the disrupts the delicate balance we live in, could lead to massive starvation and famine.

That whole area of the country is just untenable for individuals and families that believe we are at risk. IMO, only people who live with their heads in the sand can feel confident from Washington D.C. to Boston and anywhere in between. And those on the fringes for hundreds of miles need to be prepared for an onslaught.



Wow, I'm such a Debbie Downer!
BlammO  [Team Member]
6/24/2011 3:18:07 PM
Originally Posted By Remyrw:
First of all, NY is not really considered New England, kind of it's own world. Second, don't confuse the few major urban areas with the rest of the region, most of the area is essentially a blend of suburban and rural. Not massive farms and open land like some areas, but you're not talking major cities.

First thing to do if you were there on business is make sure of your food and water supply, along with any vital meds. Figure a couple days worth of the food and water, more on meds. At that point, chill out unless it's some end of the world type scenario. Most hotels have backup power and the area's pretty good about dealing with power problems anyway.

I'm not saying this is ideal, but it really does take quite a bit to create more than a couple day hiccup, and even then it has to be even worse to make it become a real problem for survival because within about 72 hours you'll have resources coming into the area. I'm not a fan of relying on someone else in these situations, but if you're there traveling you're limited in options and really just need to make it till the airport says your flight's ready or you arrange other transport. Lots of rails around here too so a train out of the area then a flight isn't that tough.


Having seen first hand what happens behind the scenes even in small events, my view is that it takes very little to bring about a lot of pain. CT-DEMHS (Connecticut Dept. of Emergency Management & Homeland Security) along with local governments, Metro North, FEMA, DHS, etc. frequently run various scenarios for weather events, natural disasters, accidents, terrorism, etc. Some of them are very elaborate and realistic like one we ran with Metro North in 2006. My opinion is that CT is in a very precarious situation. True, for the vast majority of situations, help is nearby and problems can be fixed quickly. It's the remaining possibilities that concern me.

I loved living there and miss my many friends and the uncountable wonderful things the area has going for it. But for my family's safety, I'm very relieved to be back in Texas.
Surf  [Team Member]
6/24/2011 3:28:49 PM
Originally Posted By BlammO:
Originally Posted By Colt_sporter:
-Stand by for the hordes of folks fleeing southern New England coming north looking for "something in the country."

-Standing by for other folks thinking they are going to get my help when they bring little to nothing to the table.

-Provide mutual support for a couple ARFCOM/prepper brothers who are gonna need it. Because we all will.

It will be interesting times...


There are more than 7.5 million souls trapped on Long Island and another 8 million in New York City. In any of a number of quite plausible scenarios ranging from weather to terrorism, the majority of those people are in a dismal situation. High population densities toward New Jersey and to the South make those unrealistic escape routes. You guys in the Berkshires, upstate NY, VT, NH and PA will get the brunt of the exodus, should one occur.

You know what Long Island's evacuation plan is? Shove as many people as possible on the ferries and any other boats that can be mustered and dump them into Bridgeport. After that, they're on their own. Great plan, huh? So enough Port Jefferson area residents might get over to make CT miserable and the rest are screwed. But what can you do? The only better choice is to leave now for good.

Big events at JFK and/or LaGuardia could further cut off land and air routes for Long Islanders. New York City residents are on the edge of being stranded even on a day-to-day basis. There are IIRC 330,000 passengers that ride Metro North every day and a similar number that commute on I-95, so events like 9/11 cut families apart geographically. There are point vulnerabilities in lower New England that would make your hair stand on end.

The region cannot survive more than a few days on its own. There is utterly no hope of feeding the population from local production. Connecticut has the lowest percentage of agricultural-use land in the nation. Anything the disrupts the delicate balance we live in, could lead to massive starvation and famine.

That whole area of the country is just untenable for individuals and families that believe we are at risk. IMO, only people who live with their heads in the sand can feel confident from Washington D.C. to Boston and anywhere in between. And those on the fringes for hundreds of miles need to be prepared for an onslaught.



Wow, I'm such a Debbie Downer!


And a few of us don't live in CT, NY, RI and MA.
Colt_sporter  [Team Member]
6/24/2011 3:50:17 PM
Originally Posted By Surf:
Originally Posted By BlammO:
Originally Posted By Colt_sporter:
-Stand by for the hordes of folks fleeing southern New England coming north looking for "something in the country."

-Standing by for other folks thinking they are going to get my help when they bring little to nothing to the table.

-Provide mutual support for a couple ARFCOM/prepper brothers who are gonna need it. Because we all will.

It will be interesting times...


There are more than 7.5 million souls trapped on Long Island and another 8 million in New York City. In any of a number of quite plausible scenarios ranging from weather to terrorism, the majority of those people are in a dismal situation. High population densities toward New Jersey and to the South make those unrealistic escape routes. You guys in the Berkshires, upstate NY, VT, NH and PA will get the brunt of the exodus, should one occur.

You know what Long Island's evacuation plan is? Shove as many people as possible on the ferries and any other boats that can be mustered and dump them into Bridgeport. After that, they're on their own. Great plan, huh? So enough Port Jefferson area residents might get over to make CT miserable and the rest are screwed. But what can you do? The only better choice is to leave now for good.

Big events at JFK and/or LaGuardia could further cut off land and air routes for Long Islanders. New York City residents are on the edge of being stranded even on a day-to-day basis. There are IIRC 330,000 passengers that ride Metro North every day and a similar number that commute on I-95, so events like 9/11 cut families apart geographically. There are point vulnerabilities in lower New England that would make your hair stand on end.

The region cannot survive more than a few days on its own. There is utterly no hope of feeding the population from local production. Connecticut has the lowest percentage of agricultural-use land in the nation. Anything the disrupts the delicate balance we live in, could lead to massive starvation and famine.

That whole area of the country is just untenable for individuals and families that believe we are at risk. IMO, only people who live with their heads in the sand can feel confident from Washington D.C. to Boston and anywhere in between. And those on the fringes for hundreds of miles need to be prepared for an onslaught.



Wow, I'm such a Debbie Downer!


And a few of us don't live in CT, NY, RI and MA.


Exactly, what I was thinking. Might not live as remote as I'd like, but I'm heck of a lot better off then those folks.
_DR  [Team Member]
6/24/2011 4:13:13 PM
Originally Posted By red_on_black:
Originally Posted By _DR:
Originally Posted By BlammO:
10 months ago, I was living with my wife & son in the most densely populated county in the most densely populated state in the country –– Fairfield County, Connecticut –– the southern tip of New England, butted up against NYC. I was sweating it out big time. Then almost out of the blue, my employer (which moved us there to corp. HQ 5-1/2 years earlier) offered to move us back to Texas at their expense and with no change in my job. I can only credit that to Divine Intervention.

Anyway, the best bug out plan I could come up with under the circumstances was to load necessities on to my 20' gooseneck trailer and try to make the 2,000 miles back to TX. My BOV was my 2001 Ram dually which was in very good condition (I thought). I kept it ready for such a necessity. So when we did our non-BO move, I learned something about my BO plan: it was doomed. After the moving van loaded the household up and left, I put my metalworking machinery, gun safe, etc. on the trailer and headed out on our 3-day drive. 700 miles into it at 1am, the transmission exploded.

In the end, neither the truck nor the trailer ever made it home; I sold the truck remotely and it's now in Honduras. I had to rent a Budget truck to get my contents home and now I have a trailer stuck near Aberdeen, MD that I'm paying storage on. Had that been a bugout, "royally screwed" would have been an understatement.

I was very involved with emergency management in CT. I feel for the people there. For almost any substantial scenario, the overwhelming majority of the population is really screwed. The vulnerabilities are myriad.


Sometimes i think the best plan is to bring only what you can fit in one ordinary vehicle, that way if it fails or is damaged, you can quickly commandeer another and quickly transfer precious cargo.

If you are rural, horses are a good BOV option. The only fuel they need grows in the hills and plains, and they do not need roads, and can ford rivers without bridges. In a worst case scenario, you can eat them. (I know, I know, but I said worst - think Donner Pass).



And that would be a good way to end up dead, depending on exactly what you mean. I'd rather have two vehicles in good shape in convoy and not so overloaded that the occupants of one couldn't be added to the other in case of a mechanical failure.


I was thinking taking an unoccupied vehicle, like raiding a new car dealership or parking lot.
Remyrw  [Member]
6/24/2011 4:31:40 PM
I'm just talking about a problem that is severe enough he has to somehow run for his life. So what if it's a bunch of concrete and steel? If you have food and water for a few days, along with a hotel room that isn't collapsing or burning down... you're just fine for the vast majority of problems. Now, that doesn't mean that behind the scenes things aren't totally FUBAR, just that in terms of survival you're not at much risk. Food, water, fuel for rescue equipment... it WILL make it within a few days. Hell, that's an area with serious military presence in a concentrated region both sea and land based, there's plenty of manpower to be used and plenty of "tail" for the engineers to work with.

Personally, assuming you're in a decent building and it's not at risk physically, I wouldn't even consider leaving the area during or immediately after a major event without some sort of over riding motivation. If the airport's running and I can hop a plane home, sure. If the roads are clear... but we're not talking about situations that include that nice solution.

What scenario are we trying to solve here? Freak blizzard? Hurricane? Tornado? Chemical attack by terrorists? Dirty bomb? more airplane attacks? mobs and rioting? So far I'm all for "I picked up food and water at the first serious sign and hunkered down." if I was stuck in one of the cities for business.
NH_Patriot  [Team Member]
6/24/2011 5:14:18 PM
Plan A - Try to make it to _DR's neck of the woods in TX. God I love that state (one of my ex's lives in TX). Hopefully with my convoy of travel trailers and support vehicles intact.

Plan B - If it's too late to get out of Dodge, hunker down with a fairly sizeable group of like mindeds and keep a low profile, avoid confrontations and slug it out if it MUST come to that. (and then try to make it to _DR's if I can.....Did I mention I love TX?)

tc556guy  [Team Member]
6/24/2011 6:11:39 PM
Originally Posted By SShockwave:
I'm in this area for business all the time and really only have a laptop, suit and plane ticket home when I'm up there. Thoughts or comments on strategy and supplies (that can be taken in a business flying environment) to deal with the mass hoard of people freaking out?


If you are truly there all the time and in the same general area, try to pre-position some stuff if possible.

There is enough interconnectivity between members on this board that there is someone here from that area you could trust who would let you store a BOB.
xmission  [Team Member]
6/24/2011 6:23:46 PM
Originally Posted By Kibby:
Like Duggan said, not all of New England is urban, only Boston area and Hartford. There are a lot of suburbs most everywhere in between, but it gets rural the further you go north. I'm happy to live in a place where you can hear the trees growing. There are a 21 fishable bodies of water within ten minutes in any direction, and there are mountains and forests with plenty of game.

Almost everywhere in New England is a tank of gas away, so I won't say that the hordes wont make it here, so they better come prepared. Most people here are quite xenophobic.


I live close to you.

I once bought a backhoe from a guy who lived just north of boston, and had him deliver it. He arrived at night, and I swear that he was scared shitless. He thought he was in the middle of nowhere, with no civilization at all. I feel like I'm still to close, but think that most city people won't get this far, they'll think they are in the middle of nowhere, long before they get out here.

I'm in Boston quite a bit, and figure that worse case I'll have a he'll of a hike, but I'll make it.
Tyler259  [Team Member]
6/24/2011 7:07:32 PM
ETA: In terms of a mass exodus ofpeople from the major cities I don't see it as feasible.

I live in Fairfield County, Ct and I can't say I'm really worried about mass hordes of people coming from the big cities into the smaller towns. First off where will they stay? Why are they leaving the comfort of their homes unless something major like a terrorist attack wipes out their area (how many have died?). How far will they travel if they have to walk or have a vehicle? Lot's of what ifs here.

For most us in the Survival forum the answer is bug out and I think it's great that many people have a rural place to go. But these millions of other people in the cities have no place to go? Are they going to be shoved into an arena like during Katrina? I just don't see hordes of people moving about in my residential neighborhood like a scene out of The War of the Worlds or something. What will they eat and drink? Unless many pillage any loot how are they sustaining themselves better than they could at home with little resources and money they have?

I guess what I'm getting at is I think they would stay where they were despite some Major scenarios like a bomb or foreign army invading. Look how many people stay home every time there is any natural disaster and try and ride it out.

Home provides comfort and stability for people especially with kids. Are city folk going to come into the country if their house burns down or whatever, I just don't see them going to far in distance.

I think this scenario seems too perfect like out of a movie or something. At least it seems more plausible on a little longer time scale. But we can all agree on being prepared is better than having nowhere to go or nothing to use. Trying not rush out of an area or get supplies in a hurry would be awful.

If it does happen we could bug out to my families farm in NYS but even then it's only and hour away from Albany or 3 from NYC.

We have a good neighborhood, are friends and family are here also. So maybe in extreme circumstances we'd bug out but most likely not.

Overall I'd say it's a whole nother ball game if you actually live in NYC or Boston. Highways can be packed, resources run dry, no food or gas. Yeah that'd suck.

I guess my questions are where do people stay when they bug out say during a "normal" occurrence like a hurricane. The highways are packed with people getting out of the danger zone but are they staying at a hotel or motel with friends and family or do many not even have any idea and just leaving?

I'm still learning here so don't bash me that much.
SShockwave  [Member]
6/24/2011 8:14:13 PM
great discussion guys, let me clarify what I believe my original question really was getting at.

After seeing these helpless totally out of their box NYC'ers and Bostonians, I just could not beleive how mentally or physically unprepared these people were even though THEY KNEW what was coming! I mean they know they are going on some trek through the desert and they act like they have no idea what to do because "this isn't NYC". This got me thinking, okay you have millions of these people in a very small geographical area who for some reason all of sudden have no electricity, no means of transportation, no food beyond 24 hours worth (assuming the know how to cook and don't just eat out all the time) who now have to act like it's 1801. These people are going to go full retard within 48 hours once they get really good and hungry.

My plan was if the highways were movable was to "locate" a vehicle and get the F out of dodge. If not movable maybe "locate" a motorcycle or bicycle and GTFO. Just get as far away as I could as quick as a could.
clamman  [Member]
6/24/2011 8:19:05 PM
Originally Posted By _DR:

If the SHTF in New England my plan would be to get another beer out of the fridge.


Surf  [Team Member]
6/24/2011 8:31:46 PM
Originally Posted By xmission:
Originally Posted By Kibby:
Like Duggan said, not all of New England is urban, only Boston area and Hartford. There are a lot of suburbs most everywhere in between, but it gets rural the further you go north. I'm happy to live in a place where you can hear the trees growing. There are a 21 fishable bodies of water within ten minutes in any direction, and there are mountains and forests with plenty of game.

Almost everywhere in New England is a tank of gas away, so I won't say that the hordes wont make it here, so they better come prepared. Most people here are quite xenophobic.


I live close to you.

I once bought a backhoe from a guy who lived just north of boston, and had him deliver it. He arrived at night, and I swear that he was scared shitless. He thought he was in the middle of nowhere, with no civilization at all. I feel like I'm still to close, but think that most city people won't get this far, they'll think they are in the middle of nowhere, long before they get out here.

I'm in Boston quite a bit, and figure that worse case I'll have a he'll of a hike, but I'll make it.


I hear that. No streetligjhts where I live.


Need to do some .308 shooting with you still.
ScubaDachshund  [Team Member]
6/24/2011 9:08:06 PM
Well, I'll leave the light on fer ya. If you get here late, the spare key is under the rock. No, I don't remember which one but it's there. Just look for it. Oh, and don't step on the dog on the way in. He hates that.
Mach  [Team Member]
6/24/2011 10:29:48 PM
Originally Posted By Surf:
Originally Posted By Mach:
I travel for a living. I do it on an airplane.

I bring a TSA safe get home bag every time I leave the house. Kind of an urban survival kit in case I need to survive after an earthquake, civil unrest, flood, etc.

Contents in backpack

2 x 1 liter soft foldable water bags
Iodine water disinfection tablets + the stuff that takes the iodine taste go away.
very small space blanket material sleeping bag
small AA LED flashlight
surefire G2
extra CR123 batteries
Garmin GPS Map60csx
pain pills
IFAK including quick clot
matches
rain gear
vitamins
nitrile gloves and N95 masks
caffeine pills
food bars
AA battery powered cell phone charger
extra AA batteries for flashlight, GPS, and cell phone charger.
LED head lamp with red light mode
immodium AD
whistle
compass
alcohol wipes
tick remover
can opener
duct tape
reading glasses
magnifying glass
anti-itch cream
pepcid AC
pencil
toilet paper
duct tape
aluminum foil
ziplock baggies
microfleece camp towel
space blanket
ear plugs



Good list.

As for the topic onhand ––––> Surf's up.


Thoughts or comments on strategy and supplies (that can be taken in a business flying environment) to deal with the mass hoard of people freaking out?

paddymurphy  [Member]
6/24/2011 11:34:06 PM
Originally Posted By _DR:
Originally Posted By BlammO:
10 months ago, I was living with my wife & son in the most densely populated county in the most densely populated state in the country –– Fairfield County, Connecticut –– the southern tip of New England, butted up against NYC. I was sweating it out big time. Then almost out of the blue, my employer (which moved us there to corp. HQ 5-1/2 years earlier) offered to move us back to Texas at their expense and with no change in my job. I can only credit that to Divine Intervention.

Anyway, the best bug out plan I could come up with under the circumstances was to load necessities on to my 20' gooseneck trailer and try to make the 2,000 miles back to TX. My BOV was my 2001 Ram dually which was in very good condition (I thought). I kept it ready for such a necessity. So when we did our non-BO move, I learned something about my BO plan: it was doomed. After the moving van loaded the household up and left, I put my metalworking machinery, gun safe, etc. on the trailer and headed out on our 3-day drive. 700 miles into it at 1am, the transmission exploded.

In the end, neither the truck nor the trailer ever made it home; I sold the truck remotely and it's now in Honduras. I had to rent a Budget truck to get my contents home and now I have a trailer stuck near Aberdeen, MD that I'm paying storage on. Had that been a bugout, "royally screwed" would have been an understatement.

I was very involved with emergency management in CT. I feel for the people there. For almost any substantial scenario, the overwhelming majority of the population is really screwed. The vulnerabilities are myriad.


Sometimes i think the best plan is to bring only what you can fit in one ordinary vehicle, that way if it fails or is damaged, you can quickly commandeer another and quickly transfer precious cargo.
I disagree. Yes have a loadplan and the most important stuff easy to move. But the girlfriend and I will be bugging out in two vehicles (more if friends show up). If we have to ditch duplicate or nice to have stuff en route, well so be it, and that is a metric fuck ton easier than trying to acquire it cause you did not want to have to worry about crossloading in case of a breakdown.
If you are rural, horses are a good BOV option. The only fuel they need grows in the hills and plains, and they do not need roads, and can ford rivers without bridges. In a worst case scenario, you can eat them. (I know, I know, but I said worst - think Donner Pass).


Remyrw  [Member]
6/24/2011 11:37:02 PM
Just to address the vulnerabilities thing, you aren't kidding. Target central, and not well secured for the most part.


There's no question that most folks in almost ANY densely populated area are completely clueless outside their niche, it's not just a NE thing. One of my concerns is that I now work on the far side of Hartford from where I live. Luckily work is close to a friend's place so I would head there or he and I would both be heading to one of our other destinations which do not include going back toward the city. It would suck to be away from my supplies but oh well, I've got my bag in the car and he's not exactly without resources. It's something we've done some planning for, even before I started working nearby. I'm considering storing some extra supplies at his place as well, as some added insurance. I'm over there often enough that if I keep a good sized bin in his basement I can just rotate stocks as needed for expiration dates or season changes. I'd like to leave an extra firearm and holster, preferably one of my carry options, since I can't carry at work, but I'd have to buy something extra, right now all my carry options see pretty regular use for a reason. He has a spare though, it wouldn't be ideal, but I can use it.
showpare  [Team Member]
6/25/2011 9:42:18 AM
I travel to Boston once a year by plane, and fly in on a Sunday, work Monday, fly to Miami on Tuesday morning. If I’m at the hotel, I’ll leave, the best I can, and head West. I’d grab a pillow, blanket, the shower curtain (add it to my bill), and my gear: tools, knife, clothes, etc. I take a spotting map from the car rental place to augment the GPS. Generally, I’ll have some water and snacks, too. Most of my appointments are out of the city, south and west. Then, I continue to head west, by whatever road(s) towards home. Most rentals have an easy range of 375 miles of driving. I usually have about $200 in cash and the Corporate credit card. I’d keep driving home, the best I can. If I were in the Miami area, I’d take the Turnpike North and go as far as I can.

In 2001, I drove from LA to home in a very late returned rental. I think it was in September sometime between the 11th and the 15th. All radio stations were carrying news. Gas prices were a little higher. I made Platinum on Hilton Honors for the next year. Found out later the car rental company gave me amnesty for forgetting to return the car.

Regarding New York state: I’ve done a few projects south of Rochester, NY. It is rural and hilly. Lot’s of open spaces with farmers that sound like (to me) they have attitude. Had the red hot’s garbage plate at Nick Tahou’s , too.
beansandbullets  [Member]
6/25/2011 10:31:41 AM
Originally Posted By SShockwave:

After seeing these helpless totally out of their box NYC'ers and Bostonians, I just could not beleive how mentally or physically unprepared these people were even though THEY KNEW what was coming!


This is why I don't worry about it. It's the very rare city dweller who will make it all the way to my neck of the dark, scary, bear-infested woods.

And the few that do? Ya know, a person who is that capable could be good to have around. Depends on their behavior, of course, but I'm not ruling out the possibility that a few solid folks might wash ashore. Those, I can put to use.
Badlatitude  [Team Member]
6/25/2011 10:50:05 AM
Lets hope if the S really does hit the fan the birdges and tunnels from NYC headding towards us in New England are blocked off in some way shape or form!
intervivos  [Member]
6/25/2011 11:48:49 AM
Originally Posted By SShockwave:
great discussion guys, let me clarify what I believe my original question really was getting at.

After seeing these helpless totally out of their box NYC'ers and Bostonians, I just could not beleive how mentally or physically unprepared these people were even though THEY KNEW what was coming! I mean they know they are going on some trek through the desert and they act like they have no idea what to do because "this isn't NYC". This got me thinking, okay you have millions of these people in a very small geographical area who for some reason all of sudden have no electricity, no means of transportation, no food beyond 24 hours worth (assuming the know how to cook and don't just eat out all the time) who now have to act like it's 1801. These people are going to go full retard within 48 hours once they get really good and hungry.

My plan was if the highways were movable was to "locate" a vehicle and get the F out of dodge. If not movable maybe "locate" a motorcycle or bicycle and GTFO. Just get as far away as I could as quick as a could.


I think they choose those folks to make the show "interesting" for the masses of America. Nobody wants to watch people be good at things for entertainment, they want people to fail so they can laugh at them even if they would be no better...very sad state we are in. How fun would it be to watch a SEAL team just whiz through the challenges or whatever they call them and win? They have that show already called the Eco-Challenge where the contestants were actually athletes and nobody watched it.

I too would take a beer out of the fridge if the SHTF...I live in a small town 3 hours from Boston (we measure distances here by how long it takes to drive...don't ask me why) and an hour from Albany NY. Lots of towns between the masses and me. I did live in boston for a while while in school, my roommates and I purchased a boat with some bicycles and supplies stored aboard. Our plan was to get as far from the population centers as possible then ride on back roads ahead of the crowd. Not all of us here in new england are helpless sheeple.
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