AR15.Com Archives
 EMP proof motorcycle?
XxSLASHERxX  [Team Member]
8/23/2008 7:56:41 PM
Is there such a thing? I want one that would allow me transportation if we are hit with an EMP.

I would need to do 56 miles round trip to pick my wife up from work.

She is deeply concerned about this as she works in the next town.
JoeyA  [Member]
8/23/2008 8:01:29 PM
basically an older dirt bike that's kick start no??
Sniperbait  [Member]
8/23/2008 8:16:20 PM
It would have to be a very old motorcycle that had points ignition. Or a motorcycle that is stored in a metal garden shed.

OR
Dominus  [Member]
8/23/2008 8:42:49 PM
I'm no expert, but couldn't you just find out which parts would be damaged, and then store spares in a Faraday cage?
XxSLASHERxX  [Team Member]
8/23/2008 9:04:26 PM

Originally Posted By Dominus:
I'm no expert, but couldn't you just find out which parts would be damaged, and then store spares in a Faraday cage?


Don't ask me....I'm trying to get schooled here too!
Chunky_Lover  [Member]
8/23/2008 9:08:12 PM
I thought the electronics just had to be off, like in the movie war of the worlds, all cars die but the mechanic puts in a new part then it works again, if everything fried wouldnt you have to replace most everything electronic. Im guessing if the battery is disconnected then it would be fine? Wonder if I could get a lead bike cover.
Arlis  [Member]
8/23/2008 9:18:49 PM
Thin metal like a garden shed becomes electrically transparent at EMP energy levels and the electrical parts like coils and condenser will likely need replaced after a hit.

Spare parts, tools, shoes, if upstream an inflatable raft, and a postcard to let us know how it worked out.
ranchhand  [Member]
8/23/2008 9:43:49 PM
Older dirt bike ignition parts are inside the crankcase, it seeems that they'd be safe
lectrikhed  [Member]
8/23/2008 11:34:31 PM
Take a look at some of the russian motorcycles. It is an ancient design. Many come with side cars. These can be bought cheap and they are tough. I bet the russians built them EMP proof. It is the same cycle the military uses.
Sky_Pup  [Member]
8/24/2008 9:55:41 AM
You're 100% likely to succeed in making a 28 mile trip on a bicycle. Even someone who isn't fit can ride a bicycle 28 miles.
uncool  [Member]
8/24/2008 11:15:14 AM
Someone posted a test report about EMP and few weeks ago.....Basically no major effect on new vehicles......
TomJefferson  [Site Staff]
8/24/2008 11:51:49 AM

Originally Posted By uncool:
Someone posted a test report about EMP and few weeks ago.....Basically no major effect on new vehicles......


That's up to 100 v/m which is the industry standard on most vehicles since the early 90s. Above that, there's no telling what would go wrong since that would also be generating heat on many parts.

I don't even know if motorcycles have a EMI standard. Maybe AR Jedi does?

Regardless from my exposure to the testing both component and full vehicle, one is better off with a very good understanding of how their vehicle works than storing parts even. Like most things, everything is relative and how much EMP something sees can vary what will go wrong. How much something sees is also impacted by many factors. Things like railroad tracks or power lines can transmit the problem even if you aren't in the impact area.

Though we kid a lot about bicycles when it comes to EMP, I personally think they are almost a necessity in survival planning. They aren't ideal but no dependency on fuel, batteries, or electronics is a major plus.

I am an advocate of motorcycles. Their maneuverability, fuel economy, and off road capability is hard to dismiss lightly. I often think of the movie "Deep Impact" where the kid in weaving in and out of the gridlocked traffic, but then I also think "Why didn't anyone open a door, knock the kid off, and take his bike?"

They have their pluses and minus.

Tj

binder  [Member]
8/24/2008 12:33:46 PM
The way I understand it, there shouldn't be too much to worry about with most vehicles....especially simple electronic critters like dirt bikes. They likened it to a lightening strike and how most vehicles are isolated due to the rubber tires.
Thayldt21  [Member]
8/24/2008 1:07:36 PM
Just about any Dirt Bike as they do not have points They have a magnito(SP) just like your little lawn mower.

They would be fine....


TomJefferson  [Site Staff]
8/24/2008 2:26:09 PM

Originally Posted By Thayldt21:
Just about any Dirt Bike as they do not have points They have a magnito(SP) just like your little lawn mower.

They would be fine....




That's the part I don't know. A magneto is all bout magnetic fields and an EMP blast is a magnetic field.

It may recharge the magnets, reverse the polarity, or demagnetize them. I don't know.

Tj
EXPY37  [Member]
8/24/2008 4:00:38 PM

Originally Posted By Thayldt21:
Just about any Dirt Bike as they do not have points They have a magnito(SP) just like your little lawn mower.

They would be fine....




Magnetos have points and you are right, magnetos wouldn't be affected.
EXPY37  [Member]
8/24/2008 4:01:44 PM

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:

Originally Posted By Thayldt21:
Just about any Dirt Bike as they do not have points They have a magnito(SP) just like your little lawn mower.

They would be fine....




That's the part I don't know. A magneto is all bout magnetic fields and an EMP blast is a magnetic field.

It may recharge the magnets, reverse the polarity, or demagnetize them. I don't know.

Tj


That's the last thing you need to worry about.
ar-jedi  [Team Member]
8/24/2008 9:31:22 PM

Originally Posted By Chunky_Lover:
I thought the electronics just had to be off, like in the movie war of the worlds, all cars die but the mechanic puts in a new part then it works again, if everything fried wouldnt you have to replace most everything electronic.


movies != reality. we have to remind ourselves of this now and then.


Originally Posted By Chunky_Lover:
Im guessing if the battery is disconnected then it would be fine?


no. whether the battery is connected or not has no bearing on the EMP immunity.


Originally Posted By Chunky_Lover:
Wonder if I could get a lead bike cover.


a lead cover would not do anything for you. moreover, lead is a very poor shielding material for non-ionizing electromagnetic fields. you may be confused by the fact that an EMP (electromagnetic pulse) can be generated by the above-ground detonation of a nuclear weapon. however, the resultant EMP has nothing to do with radiation. EMP is simply a very strong broadband pulse of, for lack of a better layman's term, radio waves.


Originally Posted By Sniperbait:
Or a motorcycle that is stored in a metal garden shed.


a metal shed, unless "electrically contiguous" into the gigahertz range, will provide little to no shielding. getting a shed electrically contiguous to the level that it would provide sufficient attenuation will require a lot of work -- but it could be done with enough effort. the windows have to go, btw. and, you need to seam weld every single crack, gap, and so on. finally, the shed door needs to have EMC gasketing and RF labyrinths incorporated.


Originally Posted By Arlis:
Thin metal like a garden shed becomes electrically transparent at EMP energy levels


the thickness of the metal has nothing to do with it. please google "skin effect" before replying.


Originally Posted By Arlis:
and the electrical parts like coils and condenser will likely need replaced after a hit.


this is completely false. the major fault group of high energy EMP is semiconductor junctions, not passive components like inductors and capacitors.


Originally Posted By TomJefferson:

Originally Posted By uncool:
Someone posted a test report about EMP and few weeks ago.....Basically no major effect on new vehicles......


That's up to 100 v/m which is the industry standard on most vehicles since the early 90s.


100V/m is an EXTREMELY high field strength -- and don't forget it is decaying at the square of the distance. as an example... you can assume that a lightning strike about 100 meters away will create a field strength of 100V/m with a risetime of perhaps a few hundred picoseconds to a few hundred nanoseconds -- which means the frequencies reach into the GHz range. outside and inside your house, every meter of non-shielded wire will induce 100V -- so a typical 50 foot [15m] AC mains connection from the power pole to your house service entrance will cause a 1500V surge on your house wiring. what happens next is a function of many variables. in some cases, there will be no damage whatsoever.


Originally Posted By TomJefferson:
Above that, there's no telling what would go wrong since that would also be generating heat on many parts.


the EMP RF impulse is of such short magnitude that there is no appreciable heating that you could feel. the primary issue is heating at the junction level. again, the dominant failure area of high energy fields is semiconductor junctions (diodes, transistors, integrated circuits), and this is due to dielectric breakdown (insulator layer punch-through) and/or opens/shorts caused by overcurrent at metallic layers.


Originally Posted By TomJefferson:
I don't even know if motorcycles have a EMI standard. Maybe AR Jedi does?


no idea.


Originally Posted By TomJefferson:
Regardless from my exposure to the testing both component and full vehicle, one is better off with a very good understanding of how their vehicle works than storing parts even. Like most things, everything is relative and how much EMP something sees can vary what will go wrong. How much something sees is also impacted by many factors. Things like railroad tracks or power lines can transmit the problem even if you aren't in the impact area.


+1.


Originally Posted By TomJefferson:
I am an advocate of motorcycles. Their maneuverability, fuel economy, and off road capability is hard to dismiss lightly. I often think of the movie "Deep Impact" where the kid in weaving in and out of the gridlocked traffic


+1.


Originally Posted By binder:
The way I understand it, there shouldn't be too much to worry about with most vehicles....especially simple electronic critters like dirt bikes.


+1


Originally Posted By binder:
They likened it to a lightening strike and how most vehicles are isolated due to the rubber tires.


although the transient effects of EMP and a nearby lightning strike are in fact very similar, the rubber tires are not the saving factor in an automotive application.


Originally Posted By Thayldt21:
Just about any Dirt Bike as they do not have points They have a magnito(SP) just like your little lawn mower.


i would like to understand more about your magneto ignition system that does not require points.


Originally Posted By XxSLASHERxX:
I want one that would allow me transportation if we are hit with an EMP.


stop worrying -- most any bike will run. that said, i would opine that if you are planning for a worst case scenario, the simpler, the better -- in other words you incur less risk with less complicated electronics systems.

ar-jedi