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 Combination Rifles 223/12-gauge for survival (I was a little shocked at $ however)
Quarterbore  [Team Member]
6/1/2007 4:27:35 AM EST
I was shopping at one of my favorite fun shops the other night and they had an older Savage 24 and I remembered reading that Savage made these in 223 over 12-gauge these days. Well, in my preps, I have consolidated my ammo stash to focus on a few key rounds and 223 and 12-gauge is on my "stockpile" list so I decided to look the Savage up.

Well, much to my dismay at the price, here is the Savage 24F-12:

www.savagearms.com/24f12.htm



Of particular interest to me is the 1:14 twist 223 (would work with the 55-gr FMJs and varmint loads) plus the 12-gauge with screw in choke tubes (Modified Standard).

I did some looking and these look like they sell for just under $600 and frankly I do not see that as a price I am willing to spend for a single shot shotgun and a single shot rifle welded together but I am curious what everybody thinks of the concept for a survival gun?

They also make a 20-gauge version but 20s are not part of my bigger plans myself but I will post that link for discussion as well:

www.savagearms.com/24f20.htm

Do you all think these are practical or too limited as single shots and too heavy for practical carry?

I think I talked myself out of them as I will carry a 10/22 or M4 carbine in a sling and a light pump shotgun and be just as happy.



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Quarterbore  [Team Member]
6/1/2007 4:37:40 AM EST
Kinda funny, I looked in the EE and found this rifle listed which is the pump action 223/12-gauge:

ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=21&t=439872

Now, with the pump action, this looks more desirable and is still along the lines of what I am trying to see what others think about this type of rifle/shotgun weapon system.

Sure, you could also add a masterkey to an M4 shotgun too but that is a little over the top IMHO for survival use and the M4 is not really designed for sustained use of the 12-gauge (from what I had read at least).
red_on_black  [Member]
6/1/2007 4:41:33 AM EST

One thing about those, check your state laws if you get one and consider hunting with it. Some states don't allow you to hunt with combo guns during certain seasons or don't allow their use for hunting at all.
97-silver-z  [Team Member]
6/1/2007 4:54:16 AM EST
Hey QB....I was looking at the Savage as well for the same reason; however, the price is what held me back also....

I still look for them at pawn & gun shops everywhere I go.

I figure I would pick up one if I could find a nice one for under $300.00 but still no luck.
Halffast  [Team Member]
6/1/2007 4:58:08 AM EST
Just MHO, but I think that is like putting a pickup bed on a Porche. YMMV.

David
berdan  [Team Member]
6/1/2007 5:56:13 AM EST
I've owned the much more common 22lr-20ga version for 25 years and it has seen a lot of action. I have even shot trap with it on occassion. It will kill deer with slugs, but point of impact is so far from 22lr sighting that I made a special clamp on sight piece for just that purpose. The skinny rifle barrel actually benefits from being welded to shot barrel, and shoots pretty well. I drilled some holes under butt-plate for ammo storage. Never, ever, had a function problem!
nationwide  [Team Member]
6/1/2007 6:00:29 AM EST
I've got one in .22mag over 20 guage...

I would not own it unless it was given to me.

jamesnelson918  [Member]
6/1/2007 7:15:34 AM EST
For some reason I don't think those would be very accurate, and the fact that you only have 2 shots loaded at once doesn't give you much advantage if you need a quick follow up shot or are getting return fire.
rockstar4960  [Team Member]
6/1/2007 7:22:00 AM EST
ive got on thats a .22 magnum over a .410.
its pretty cool, and very accurate, for what it is.
it was a hand me down from pops, so i have no idea what it cost.

the thing that i love about it is that it breaks into 3 pieces. barrel, action/stock, and forearm.
its great for a camping gun when you cant have a center fire or semi auto.
Primos  [Member]
6/1/2007 7:40:55 AM EST
If that were $100, it might be worth it.

You can get an AR for close to the same price as that thing.

FourStringSlinger  [Team Member]
6/1/2007 8:16:35 AM EST

Originally Posted By nationwide:
I've got one in .22mag over 20 guage...

I would not own it unless it was given to me.



I had the .223/20 for 20 years, it was in pretty sorry shape. Never found it to be accurate or handy...more of a compromise IMHO. I sold it to a guy who wanted to refinish it for his kid.

WAY overpriced new IMO.
johnh2os  [Member]
6/1/2007 8:47:55 AM EST
I own 2 22lr/410 Savage model 24's, one was given to my dad when he was 7, then to me at 7, and my son (now 8)is now in possession of it. Great guns and with the 410 slug is about 4-5 inches low at 75 yds.

John
MrCornbread  [Member]
6/1/2007 9:08:26 AM EST

Originally Posted By Quarterbore:
Kinda funny, I looked in the EE and found this rifle listed which is the pump action 223/12-gauge:

ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=21&t=439872

Now, with the pump action, this looks more desirable and is still along the lines of what I am trying to see what others think about this type of rifle/shotgun weapon system.

Sure, you could also add a masterkey to an M4 shotgun too but that is a little over the top IMHO for survival use and the M4 is not really designed for sustained use of the 12-gauge (from what I had read at least).

biggest POS ever. Do not buy it without handling it first.
Dedhorse  [Member]
6/1/2007 9:12:34 AM EST
I have a friend that has a .222 / 12 ga. made by Tikki [sp?] from Finland I believe. He bought it for turkey hunting and he loves it , says the rifle is very accurate.He keeps a scope on it all the time including when he shoots the shotgun Think he got it for $500 which I think was a good buy. A much higher quality gun then the Savage.
I've had a couple of the Savage 22/20 ga. guns and for what they are, a comprimise, pretty good guns.Mine the .22 were as accurate as any .22 sporter. They also made a camper model which was shorter and had a ammo trap in the stock and fit in a special case. I would buy one of these in a heartbeat if I came across one for a fair price.
......I think where a gun like this comes into it's own is when it is a pack or truck gun where you can only have one gun. Doesn't make much sence to replace your 10 22 and Remington 870 that you keep in your closet at home with one but would make a good multi purpose gun to keep in your car, boat, air plane etc. or when hiking maybe. To compare it to a AR 15 is a little strange since they are such different purpose guns....sort of like saying an AR15 is no good because it is so hard to pass shoot ducks with one

By the way these things are nothing new, i have an opriginal swivel breech muzzle loader that has one .44 rifle barrel and one 44 smooth bore one, Years ago I had a LC Smith made Hunter drilling that had double 16 ga, barrels and a 44 40 rifle ....Todd
MrCornbread  [Member]
6/1/2007 9:15:18 AM EST

Originally Posted By Quarterbore:
Do you all think these are practical or too limited as single shots and too heavy for practical carry?

good for tree rats. I prefer to carry a scoped 22 handgun and a shotgun.

Some day I may make my own combo from a Stevens 311 12 gauge double I have.

www.mcace.com/shotguninserts.htm
m193  [Member]
6/1/2007 9:17:56 AM EST
If you need a rifle, use a rifle. If you need a shotgun, use a shotgun.

That Crossfire looks like a problem waiting to happen. That thing looks like a Crosman BB gun.
monkeyman  [Member]
6/1/2007 10:47:19 AM EST
Remington is now importing russian made rifle/shotgun combo guns formally imported by EAA. My brother has one of the EAA imported ones. Very nice gun and was very resonably priced. Not sure what they cost now.

here is a review of the same model my brother has.

www.predatormastersforums.com/baikal.html
JStor  [Member]
6/1/2007 11:13:01 AM EST
Originally Posted By m193:
If you need a rifle, use a rifle. If you need a shotgun, use a shotgun.

I have to agree. Use a good 870 12 gauge pump and carry a few slugs if you expect to encounter deer. If you are after only deer bring a rifle instead. With either, one could carry a .22 pistol for small stuff.
lumper  [Team Member]
6/1/2007 5:05:31 PM EST
I have the 12 gauge/223 savage combo. I have hunted turkeys with it. It is a little heavy, but not a bad gun. The 223 shoots ok for what it is, but is not exactly centered with the shot pattern. I have a scope on mine, sighted in for the 223 barrel, and if you are going to use the shotgun at 30 to 40 yards, you have to hold a little off for the center of the pattern - I do have the tightest choke I could find in the gun however.

I remember calling Savage about having it bored out for 3 1/2 inch shells, and they would not do it.

I paid $300.00 (I think) about 8 to 10 years ago.

In PA for hunting, you can use the gun for both turkey seasons, however you cannot have any 223 ammo with you if you are hunting in the shotgun only season.
yekimak  [Team Member]
6/1/2007 5:21:39 PM EST
I have a .22/.410 model. The .22 is accurate and the .410 has a really tight choke and the gun is murder on birds. I got it from my grand dad and would not trade it for the world.......but I would not spend more than $250 on one either. I dislike the newer .22/12 and .223/12's, they make no sense to me, they are heavy, they look nothing like the older ones, and the cost is out the window. You could buy a couple HandiRifles and still come out ahead.

There is a variant I have been trying to find, it was chambered in .30-30/20.
red_on_black  [Member]
6/1/2007 5:22:04 PM EST


Ironically enough, after reading this thread I was out in town today and found a Springfield M6 Scout park'd in .22LR/.410 for $130 at a pawn shop. I've been waiting for a good deal on one for years, so of course it came home with me. I have already learned that mine shoots about minute-of-starling with the irons and Federal bulk pack. Neat little rifle.
Tango7  [Team Member]
6/1/2007 5:43:56 PM EST

Originally Posted By red_on_black:
One thing about those, check your state laws if you get one and consider hunting with it. Some states don't allow you to hunt with combo guns during certain seasons or don't allow their use for hunting at all.


Many states hunting reg language is akin to that which bans buckshot... "in posession of during the season".

So if it's rifle season, don't carry any shotshells, and vice versa. Even in the "loops on the back of the vest that you don't use anyway".

We're talking S-T-E-R-I-L-E.

Of course, SHTF is a different situation.


ETA - Savage 22/410 owner myself. (Wish it was a 22/20 but I'll take what I got)
Tango7  [Team Member]
6/1/2007 5:44:39 PM EST

Originally Posted By red_on_black:

Ironically enough, after reading this thread I was out in town today and found a Springfield M6 Scout park'd in .22LR/.410 for $130 at a pawn shop. I've been waiting for a good deal on one for years, so of course it came home with me. I have already learned that mine shoots about minute-of-starling with the irons and Federal bulk pack. Neat little rifle.


Bastidge. Good find.
Arch2Cad  [Member]
6/2/2007 8:24:44 PM EST
What about a bolt-on shotgun for your AR15? The Masterkey (by Knights Armament?) and XM-26 Lightweight Shotgun System (LSS) make tasty additions to your M4gery.

Sorry for the cheesy link - I don't know how to post pics yet!
http://www.answers.com/topic/xm26-lightweight-shotgun-system
Kodiak-AK  [Team Member]
6/3/2007 9:19:03 PM EST
Heh I have one of these in stainless as a .357 Rem Max and 20 guage.
yekimak  [Team Member]
6/3/2007 11:55:42 PM EST

Originally Posted By Kodiak-AK:
Heh I have one of these in stainless as a .357 Rem Max and 20 guage.


That is one I never heard of....



I forgot to mention earlier that like any other obsession there is, there is a forum for the Mod 24 junkies out there.....

www.savage24.com/
kdx300  [Member]
6/4/2007 2:15:22 AM EST

Originally Posted By red_on_black:

Ironically enough, after reading this thread I was out in town today and found a Springfield M6 Scout park'd in .22LR/.410 for $130 at a pawn shop. I've been waiting for a good deal on one for years, so of course it came home with me. I have already learned that mine shoots about minute-of-starling with the irons and Federal bulk pack. Neat little rifle.


You got a great deal on the M6, I bought one for 250.00 a month or so back and love it.. The Springfield website still has nice breakdown softcases, owners manuals and some parts for the M6. Mine is very light, it breaks down with the push of one pin, and slides right into my Mtn Smith pack...
KDX
frozenny  [Team Member]
6/4/2007 3:19:46 AM EST
My two cents...

I own grandpa's old stevens .22/.410. It has a lot of sentimental value, and it makes for a nice squirrel rifle. I cna choose between rifle for rabbits and squirrels on the ground, and can switch to the 410 barrel for tree shots. I don't like zipping .22 bullets through tree tops because I don't know where they'll come down (in a populated area)...

With that said its a neat novelty item. However, it is a compromise that doesn't really work.. Unlike true over-under double shotties you do not have two quick shots. Nor do you have the ability to quickly select the appropriate barrel. You have to cock a hammer (which is fine), but then have to screw around selecting a smaller lever to select barrel. After that first shot you have to recock and reselect.

Sighting options suck. If you scope it to get the most out of your rifle, your shotgun barrel is hampered. If you leave irons on you still have a half assed shotgun option, and a reduced rifle capability.

In a sense this is a big, heavy, cumbersome, slow novelty item.

In my considered opinion you could do consdierably better (survival wise) with a pair of cheap NEF single shots. Grap a lightwieght single in .223, and another in 12 or 20 guage. The two firearms would cost less, and each would be light and easier to use. You'd also have a measure of redundancy with two firearms... Or simply buy a combo with two or more barrels...

My combo gun is a nice heirloom. Its synthetic stocked and relatively light. It is a neat rabbit and squirrel firearm. However, the newer 24's are big heavy clunky firearms with little real advantage and considerable disadvantages. I would not buy one...
Kodiak-AK  [Team Member]
6/4/2007 8:11:32 AM EST

Originally Posted By yekimak:

Originally Posted By Kodiak-AK:
Heh I have one of these in stainless as a .357 Rem Max and 20 guage.


That is one I never heard of....



I forgot to mention earlier that like any other obsession there is, there is a forum for the Mod 24 junkies out there.....

www.savage24.com/
It is kinda neat . I just wish it was 12 to go with the rest of my ammo needs .
It is kind of nice to be able to drop a .38 or a .357 mag in the pipe . I have not seen any Rem Max in forever .

If only I could find an inseart to take it down to .22lr or .223 it would be the perfect Get the fuck home truck gun .
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