AR15.Com Archives
 Home made IV how to do it?
Paveway_  [Member]
3/27/2007 1:49:16 PM
Ok I saw shooter last night, and he gives himself a IV, after using quick clot to plug is bullet wounds, but he has lost a lot of blood.

Is this possible with regular stuff -purified water, sugar, salt? Don't know. I mean its just a salien solution isn't it.

Anyone know how to do it...
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SilentNine  [Member]
3/27/2007 1:57:04 PM
I saw that last night, looked like he was using a basketball filler as the needle *cringe*.
Lifesaver  [Team Member]
3/27/2007 2:13:25 PM

Originally Posted By Paveway_:
Ok I saw shooter last night, and he gives himself a IV, after using quick clot to plug is bullet wounds, but he has lost a lot of blood.

Is this possible with regular stuff -purified water, sugar, salt? Don't know. I mean its just a salien solution isn't it.

Anyone know how to do it...


In a manner of speaking, yes, it is "just a saline solution". That being said, I would not be in a hurry to inject artificial tears into my vein, as that is all most of them are, "just saline". I certainly would not want to try it with the inflation needle off a basketball pump unless it had been sharpened to a really good point. Even then, i would probably think at least twice about it. That is a pretty good sized needle. Without having one nearby for reference, I would guess it is about a 16 gauge.

The solution would be the least of your worries I would venture. I have a book someplace (no, i do not recall which one) that actually has a "recipe" for saline, D5W and ringers lactate IV solutions. If I can locate it, I will post the title and author. YOU BREW AND USE THESE RECIPES AT YOUR OWN RISK!!! The biggest problem I can see is cobbling together a sterile delivery system. How many of us actually have autoclaves in their SHTF supplies?? Sure a glass bottle could be modified to hold the fluids. Heck, I worked on ambulances when all our IV' solutions came in glass bottles. Fabricating the tubing with a drip chamber that will mate to your needle and does not leak poses the real challenge.

If you are truly concerned about this type of need, I would get friendly with one of your local firefighters/ paramedics, or discuss it with your doctor. They can help you get "the right stuff" (sorry, couldn't resist ); and, the training to use it.
thedave1164  [Member]
3/27/2007 2:13:42 PM
It is hollywood......

You can find places on the web to buy the IV line kits and the IV bags with ringers lactate, saline, etc.....

But would you know which one to use? How much? How to start an IV?


medicmandan  [Team Member]
3/27/2007 2:16:46 PM
I would have to say that is a bad idea. Lack of a sterile delivery system or sterile fluids would be a big concern. Lack of training with IV administration also comes to mind.

HELOBRAVO  [Team Member]
3/27/2007 2:33:03 PM

Originally Posted By medicmandan:
I would have to say that is a bad idea. Lack of a sterile delivery system or sterile fluids would be a big concern. Lack of training with IV administration also comes to mind.



Didn't see the movie, but I've been administering IV's for many years and I would not even try that.
Mixing saline is easy. Doing it and administering it cleanly probably ain't gonna happen. What the hell did this character use to contain his infection causing mixture?
You can buy bags of IV fluids off the internet.
That being said....a non-medical person in a situation that would dictate (or not) giving an IV is not likely to know the necessary patient monitoring needs.
Would you know if your buddy needed a dressing and an IV or just a dressing and to lay down with his feet up.
The most important question to ask yourself before attempting advanced medical care is ......drumroll....Do you have the knowledge to know when to do nothing?
Rule number one:do no harm.
MarkWiskey  [Member]
3/27/2007 3:37:16 PM

Originally Posted By HELOBRAVO:

Originally Posted By medicmandan:
I would have to say that is a bad idea. Lack of a sterile delivery system or sterile fluids would be a big concern. Lack of training with IV administration also comes to mind.



Didn't see the movie, but I've been administering IV's for many years and I would not even try that.
Mixing saline is easy. Doing it and administering it cleanly probably ain't gonna happen. What the hell did this character use to contain his infection causing mixture?
You can buy bags of IV fluids off the internet.
That being said....a non-medical person in a situation that would dictate (or not) giving an IV is not likely to know the necessary patient monitoring needs.
Would you know if your buddy needed a dressing and an IV or just a dressing and to lay down with his feet up.
The most important question to ask yourself before attempting advanced medical care is ......drumroll....Do you have the knowledge to know when to do nothing?
Rule number one:do no harm.

come on... it's water in a bag with a tube to a needle. when i was in we used to sit around the barracks and squeeze a liter or two of 'almost expired' IV fluid into a few volunteers. then we'd put money on which one would piss first. I've given and got IV's plenty of times and everyone was just fine.
Bed_Head  [Team Member]
3/27/2007 3:43:05 PM
That would be bad....mmmmkay?


You get the concentration the least bit wrong, and you'll have all kinds of problems with fluids going the wrong places in the cells, etc.

Not to mention (like everyone else has said) the lack of sterility. I don't want to inject dirty ol' bacteria right into my blood stream. That's a great way to kill yourself.
Lifesaver  [Team Member]
3/27/2007 4:11:51 PM

Originally Posted By MarkWiskey:

come on... it's water in a bag with a tube to a needle. when i was in we used to sit around the barracks and squeeze a liter or two of 'almost expired' IV fluid into a few volunteers. then we'd put money on which one would piss first. I've given and got IV's plenty of times and everyone was just fine.


The key here is the solutions you were playing with were "almost expired". So, they started out their "life" as sterile solutions. Assuming their packaging was not compromised, they were probably still sterile when you were injecting them into your volunteers.

Unless carefully prepared, IV solutions created using tap water are not sterile. Also, most tap water is treated in some fashion or another, with chlorine and may even have fluoride added (depending on where you live). These may be great for the water and even your teeth. That doesn't mean they are good to inject into your veins. YMMV.
Waldo  [Moderator]
3/27/2007 4:15:35 PM

Originally Posted By thedave1164:
It is hollywood......

You can find places on the web to buy the IV line kits and the IV bags with ringers lactate, saline, etc.....

But would you know which one to use? How much? How to start an IV?





Trouble with that is it has a shelf life (some as little as 1 year). My wife brings the dated bags home and microwaves them for hot packs.
tayous1  [Team Member]
3/27/2007 4:24:52 PM

Originally Posted By MarkWiskey:
come on... it's water in a bag with a tube to a needle. when i was in we used to sit around the barracks and squeeze a liter or two of 'almost expired' IV fluid into a few volunteers. then we'd put money on which one would piss first. I've given and got IV's plenty of times and everyone was just fine.


We did that all the time in the Marines also! There where guys almost every night getting I.V' done. On a Saturday night when I had duty I walked in on 8 guys all with I.V lines on drinking and playing "Texas hold em". It was a everyday type thing when your in a grunt unit or maybe that was just mine.
russbunny  [Member]
3/27/2007 4:31:20 PM
You're better off having a sports drink or something. Orange juice, Gatorade, etc. Anything with a large amount of electrolytes and carbs. They may not work as quickly as a proper IV but the risks you would take administering one to yourself in a dirty environment are far out weighed. Also, given the fact that an IV in your arm could dampen your ability to fight could also be an issue. If you just chug some OJ or Gatorade or Joeblow energy drink, it will help restore a lot of white blood cells and help keep you from passing out. While OJ needs refrigerated and goes bad, it is certainly one of the best options. I know this because when I have a hypoglycemia attack (only once every 3-6 months and usually caused by nothing to eat and adrenaline) if I slam a glass of OJ, I almost instantly regain all of my energy, no longer feel light headed, and don't require anything to eat to get this way. It isn't a sugar rush or anything...I just feel better.

If you could find something with the generic composition of OJ in a powder form or something that doesn't go bad, this would probably be your best option for restoring electrolytes and white blood cells after losing blood.

ETA- Your only issue with this is vomiting...obviously.
Bed_Head  [Team Member]
3/27/2007 5:01:59 PM
Some of you guys are thinking about this all wrong- the OP was talking about makeshift IV's being administered after losing a large volume of blood. The purpose of giving an IV in that type of situation is NOT to replace electrolytes, sugar, etc.... it's to replace lost volume and bring the patient's blood pressure back up out of dangerously low levels. And still, saline/LR/D5W/etc do NOT have the same characteristics as blood in the most important aspect- transporting oxygen. You'd still either need a blood transfusion, or time and healing to replace all that lost blood.

If you're just talking about replacing fluids from being dehydrated or whatever, then fine... NS will do. But if you're talking about saving a person's life..... well, I guess if they're going to die anyway then you have nothing to lose. But you may end up killing them in the process if any of those "bad" things happen (like mixing the wrong concentration or secondary infection).

BTW- IV's themselves are pretty benign to a healthy and young person- in moderation of course. You're not going to have to worry about cardiac overload like an older person, or a cardiac patient. Just remember that the more you dilute the fluids in your body, the more you flush the OTHER important electrolytes out with all your pee-ing pranks. Like potassium. Low potassium will kill you real good. And if it gets that low you just can't administer potassium to a person fast enough to save them.
E22CAPT  [Team Member]
3/27/2007 5:40:46 PM
OH MY LORD! Home made IVs?

Please dont, pretty pretty please! Chances are, what you would end up with would be one of the most profound infections on record, and possibly a raging case of asystole or V-fib.

Keep in mind that different IV solutions are for completely different situations. Some cause fluid shifts into the cells and other cause shifts out of the cells. It accomplishes this by the relative amount of sodium, potassium and other electrolytes in the solution. Some tap water that is completely safe to drink can and will have a wide spectrum of dissolved solids, chemicals, bacteria and God knows what elese in it. Dumping 1 or 2 liters of tap water from a non sterile procedure/container would have a myriad of complications.

Anytime you introduce a fluid IV, you have just bypassed ALL of the body's defences and systems of regulation, and the effects will be immediate, maybe even terminal.

FirefighterEd  [Team Member]
3/27/2007 5:44:03 PM
Bagged saline IS sterile as long as the bag is intact.

In the above situation, IMHO, I would give/take normal saline without hesitation if it was out of date. It's SALT and WATER, neither of which ever "go bad" if left sterile. The expiration dates are solely a US FDA thing. WE (the US) routinely give our out of date medical supplies to 3rd world countries where they are the only supplies available.
Bed_Head  [Team Member]
3/27/2007 5:54:57 PM

Originally Posted By FirefighterEd:
Bagged saline IS sterile as long as the bag is intact.

In the above situation, IMHO, I would give/take normal saline without hesitation if it was out of date. It's SALT and WATER, neither of which ever "go bad" if left sterile. The expiration dates are solely a US FDA thing. WE (the US) routinely give our out of date medical supplies to 3rd world countries where they are the only supplies available.

True, I'd give expired saline too. But they're talking about HOMEMADE IV saline. As in boiled tap water and a little table salt. (or whatever)
The_Beer_Slayer  [Site Staff]
3/27/2007 6:02:24 PM
introduction of bacteria directly into the bloodstream is a VERY bad thing.
AGreyMan  [Member]
3/27/2007 6:33:05 PM
Hi Folks:

From the book "Prescription for Adventure - Bush Pilot Doctor" the story of doctor/pilot Elmer Gaede in Alaska circa 1950s-1960s.

In this excerpt, Doctor Gaede treats a guy with a GI bleed, in the patient's bush cabin. Along with Dr. Gaede and the patient is a local innkeeper who called for help via radio.

February 1958:

"The flickering kerosene lamp cast gentle shadows on his peaceful face. I checked his blood pressure and pulse. Something was wrong; Charlie was going into shock.

I'd used my two bottles of IV solution. Now I'd have to improvise. The water in the bucket on the stove was still warm, and at one time had been to a boil. Hurriedly, I filled an empty IV bottle with the water, added one teaspoon of salt from the salt shaker on the table, and dashed out the door to cool the solution in the below zero snow. Moments later, both my wool-socked feet and the homemade solution were lukewarm, and I returned to the patient, quickly finding a vein and beginning the IV.

I waited. Slowly the bottle emptied and I prepared a second in a similar fashion as the first. Finally the blood pressure was percievable, and I slowed down the IV drip. Minutes stretched into hours as I kept the night watch while the innkeeper snored unpreturbed.

About 10:00 a.m., dawn pushed its way through the frigid darkness and into the cabin. Returning from a second call to Fairbanks, the innkeeper's grin gave away the good news.

"The weather's breaking! Chances are we'll have a plane by noon!"

Charlie tenaciously clung to life as he waited for the rescue plane and then endured the 40 minute flight to Fairbanks. Later I learned that once he arrived at the hospital, he received a walloping eight units in blood transfusions.

As Charlies plane took off, I put my arm around the innkeeper. 'Thanks for standing by me.'

'Yeh Doc,' he answered gruffly. 'Up here we have to stick together and make do with what we have.'"


Stay Safe,
AGreyMan
odontia32m  [Member]
3/27/2007 6:45:03 PM
1/2 the nurses and doctors out there are not capable withe the correct equipment. AHH, do not try this at home.
russbunny  [Member]
3/27/2007 6:59:38 PM

Originally Posted By Bed_Head:
Some of you guys are thinking about this all wrong- the OP was talking about makeshift IV's being administered after losing a large volume of blood. The purpose of giving an IV in that type of situation is NOT to replace electrolytes, sugar, etc.... it's to replace lost volume and bring the patient's blood pressure back up out of dangerously low levels. And still, saline/LR/D5W/etc do NOT have the same characteristics as blood in the most important aspect- transporting oxygen. You'd still either need a blood transfusion, or time and healing to replace all that lost blood.

If you're just talking about replacing fluids from being dehydrated or whatever, then fine... NS will do. But if you're talking about saving a person's life..... well, I guess if they're going to die anyway then you have nothing to lose. But you may end up killing them in the process if any of those "bad" things happen (like mixing the wrong concentration or secondary infection).

BTW- IV's themselves are pretty benign to a healthy and young person- in moderation of course. You're not going to have to worry about cardiac overload like an older person, or a cardiac patient. Just remember that the more you dilute the fluids in your body, the more you flush the OTHER important electrolytes out with all your pee-ing pranks. Like potassium. Low potassium will kill you real good. And if it gets that low you just can't administer potassium to a person fast enough to save them.


I understood what the OP wanted and I was just giving what I felt was a logical alternative that would probably work considerably better. If you really want to squirt saline into someone mixed in a dirty environment (anything outside of a truly sterile room) then that's up to you but you could just end up pumping toxins directly into that person's blood stream. This could potentially cause something as severe as anaphylactic shock. This is caused by foreign traces being introduced into the blood, which is then followed by swelling of brain tissue and massive seizures. Typically, unless something like anaphylactic shock is treated by something like Valium, it can very quickly result in massive strokes, aneurysm, and death. This is not something I would want to screw with. If you want the use of an IV, buy some line kits, needle kits, bags, and learn how to properly administer them from a reputable medical journal and consider taking an EMT course. If you have a loved one that would be by your side in SHTF, I advise you train them or have them join the course with you so they know how to administer it so if something happens to you, you're not screwed.

Past this, attempting to make medical supplies that are supposed to be 100% sterile may work completely against you in the end.
E22CAPT  [Team Member]
3/27/2007 7:04:49 PM
I happen to know someone that is quite proficient with IVs, so I am covered.
HELOBRAVO  [Team Member]
3/27/2007 7:21:41 PM

Originally Posted By MarkWiskey:

Originally Posted By HELOBRAVO:

Originally Posted By medicmandan:
I would have to say that is a bad idea. Lack of a sterile delivery system or sterile fluids would be a big concern. Lack of training with IV administration also comes to mind.



Didn't see the movie, but I've been administering IV's for many years and I would not even try that.
Mixing saline is easy. Doing it and administering it cleanly probably ain't gonna happen. What the hell did this character use to contain his infection causing mixture?
You can buy bags of IV fluids off the internet.
That being said....a non-medical person in a situation that would dictate (or not) giving an IV is not likely to know the necessary patient monitoring needs.
Would you know if your buddy needed a dressing and an IV or just a dressing and to lay down with his feet up.
The most important question to ask yourself before attempting advanced medical care is ......drumroll....Do you have the knowledge to know when to do nothing?
Rule number one:do no harm.

come on... it's water in a bag with a tube to a needle. when i was in we used to sit around the barracks and squeeze a liter or two of 'almost expired' IV fluid into a few volunteers. then we'd put money on which one would piss first. I've given and got IV's plenty of times and everyone was just fine.


There are pathologies that could make them selves very apparent even with young healthy servicemen sitting around playing like that. As someone already stated, an unecessary fluid shift can be a bitch, no matter your age or health.
I've seen people die in the hospital from a bag of fluids running in too fast for whatever reason.
feral  [Team Member]
3/27/2007 7:44:12 PM
Seems like every month or so the topic of IV fluid resucitation comes up.......but yet I never see anyone asking about fluid resucitation per rectum......

Imagine that....


russbunny  [Member]
3/27/2007 7:54:00 PM

Originally Posted By feral:
Seems like every month or so the topic of IV fluid resucitation comes up.......but yet I never see anyone asking about fluid resucitation per rectum......

Imagine that....




This is bordering into "sounding" which is a whole different topic and probably not suitable for this forum...



As many others have said though, if you do not know what you are actually doing, learn. Do NOT make your own IV bags unless you are a practicing manufacturer with a truly sterile environment.

Two potentially fatal hazards have been mentioned which include fluid shift and blood borne pathogens/foreign substances being put directly into the blood stream.

Something like what I mentioned can and will cause an infection and it won't be a "She's had a fever for 3 days and we're giving her some aspirin for it." type of infection. It will be very immediate set in and can be almost instantly fatal.
E22CAPT  [Team Member]
3/27/2007 8:04:03 PM

Originally Posted By feral:
Seems like every month or so the topic of IV fluid resucitation comes up.......but yet I never see anyone asking about fluid resucitation per rectum......

Imagine that....




Although it sounds crazy, that might be a more suitable solution.....
Bed_Head  [Team Member]
3/27/2007 8:13:18 PM

Originally Posted By russbunny:

I understood what the OP wanted and I was just giving what I felt was a logical alternative that would probably work considerably better. If you really want to squirt saline into someone mixed in a dirty environment (anything outside of a truly sterile room) then that's up to you but you could just end up pumping toxins directly into that person's blood stream. This could potentially cause something as severe as anaphylactic shock. This is caused by foreign traces being introduced into the blood, which is then followed by swelling of brain tissue and massive seizures. Typically, unless something like anaphylactic shock is treated by something like Valium, it can very quickly result in massive strokes, aneurysm, and death. This is not something I would want to screw with. If you want the use of an IV, buy some line kits, needle kits, bags, and learn how to properly administer them from a reputable medical journal and consider taking an EMT course. If you have a loved one that would be by your side in SHTF, I advise you train them or have them join the course with you so they know how to administer it so if something happens to you, you're not screwed.

Past this, attempting to make medical supplies that are supposed to be 100% sterile may work completely against you in the end.

My post was not an attack.... and not directed at anyone specifically. And I haven't seen "Shooter" yet either. My interpretation of the OP's question was Can you make homemade IV solutions to administer for traumatic situations and administer them to yourselves? And the answer is NO- not if you're smart. But then again, in a true SHTF situation when you're probably going to die anyway, then hey- what've you got to lose? Just beware that the chances of a person succeeding with a homemade IV are pretty slim- there are way too many things that can go wrong. And in a critically injured patient (like I said, I haven't seen Shooter-- I have no idea how bad he was) drinking fluids is not one of the things you want to do, as blood is automatically shunted AWAY from the gut, and goes to the brain and heart. If the pt was conscious enough to even drink, he/she would most likely just puke it up like you said, and then it would be an aspiration/airway risk.

There's a reason that so much schooling is required for true professionals who administer them. So we're probably on the same page with that- if you want to give an IV to someone, go get the training and get your hands on the real deal solutions, adminstration sets, and catheters.



BTW though- anaphylaxis is treated with Epinepherine (and a couple other wickedly strong meds), not Valium.


And I'm not a doctor, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn... but I have been a medic for 11 years now, and teach EMS at the college.
Bed_Head  [Team Member]
3/27/2007 8:15:11 PM

Originally Posted By E22CAPT:

Originally Posted By feral:
Seems like every month or so the topic of IV fluid resucitation comes up.......but yet I never see anyone asking about fluid resucitation per rectum......

Imagine that....




Although it sounds crazy, that might be a more suitable solution.....

Like giving D-50 rectally?

"Okay, when he wakes up to find his pants down and his ass cheeks stuck together, YOU'RE going to explain it."
E22CAPT  [Team Member]
3/27/2007 8:20:08 PM

Originally Posted By Bed_Head:

Originally Posted By E22CAPT:

Originally Posted By feral:
Seems like every month or so the topic of IV fluid resucitation comes up.......but yet I never see anyone asking about fluid resucitation per rectum......

Imagine that....




Although it sounds crazy, that might be a more suitable solution.....

Like giving D-50 rectally?

"Okay, when he she wakes up to find his her pants down and his her ass cheeks stuck together, YOU'RE going to explain it."



"That aint D-50 baby"
CasualObserver  [Team Member]
3/27/2007 8:34:15 PM
Home-made IV's, let me know which one of you dumb-asses is going to try it, I want to watch.

Three cheers for raging septicemia!!!!!111one111!!eleven!!WTFBBQ!!!
medicmandan  [Team Member]
3/27/2007 8:36:48 PM

Originally Posted By feral:
Seems like every month or so the topic of IV fluid resucitation comes up.......but yet I never see anyone asking about fluid resucitation per rectum......

Imagine that....




There are a couple of drugs that come to mind that are just fine given PR. D-50 and valium are two, I seem to remember something about Narcan too but I'm not 100% on that one.. Not sure I would consider that route for fluid replacement.
JoeyA  [Team Member]
3/27/2007 9:30:04 PM

Originally Posted By thedave1164:
But would you know which one to use? How much? How to start an IV?

That's the easy one, know when/how much/ect is far more important


Originally Posted By medicmandan:
I would have to say that is a bad idea. Lack of a sterile delivery system or sterile fluids would be a big concern. Lack of training with IV administration also comes to mind.


Big +1 on that. The last thing you want to do is help yourself get a bad infection by injecting it straight into you.
Throttle-Junkie  [Member]
3/27/2007 9:31:44 PM
Even if you had a real, sterile, and current IV kit, the most important thing you need to know is when NOT to use it.

Many GIs were killed by medics that had been taught to start an IV, first thing, on all wounded. Someone is badly injured by GSW/Trauma and they've clotted internally while waiting for hlep. Now you ramp up their blood pressure with IV fluids and blow open the fragile clots. Oops.

Contra-indications are the first thing everyone should learn about any treatment.
Glockhappy  [Team Member]
3/27/2007 9:33:11 PM
Ahh, the degeneritive shit storm that all first aid medical threads become

I think on the subject of medicine, many if not most of us have a tendency to want to practice outside of our skill level(including me). Most of these drastic home grown measures, just cant replace the definitive care found at the hospital, no matter how much we would like them to. If the SHTF and you lose that much blood, an infusion of whole blood will likely be required. Im afraid a persons efforts are best spent on prevention and preperation.
32ACP  [Member]
3/27/2007 9:53:24 PM
Ok...I am a doctor and general surgeon, which means I deal with trauma cases and know a little about medicine.

This not a good idea. While some will argue this is "just discussion" this is like trying to shoot a .308 in a .30-06. I'm not sure if the mods would lock such a dangerously absurd thread--but I would hope they would.

IV drug abusers use their own home-made shooting kits and get weird bacterial and fungal infections in their heart valves (endocarditis) that will kill you if it's untreated--or cause strokes by sending clumps of germs to your head which turn into abscesses in your brain. This doesn't include the skin infections, sclerosed/damaged veins, blood infections, etc. Still sound like a good idea?

I'm not familiar with this movie--but hey--Rambo cauterized his abdominal wound with gunpowder in one if those absurd movies--must be true--it's in Hollywood. WTF?

feral  [Team Member]
3/27/2007 9:58:07 PM

Originally Posted By medicmandan:
There are a couple of drugs that come to mind that are just fine given PR. D-50 and valium are two, I seem to remember something about Narcan too but I'm not 100% on that one.. Not sure I would consider that route for fluid replacement.


Picture yourself in a situation where you have a patient who desperately needs volume replacement, but you have NO access to sterile IV crystalloid.

Which is the lesser of two evils: home-brewed IV crystalloid or home-brewed PR crystalloid?

Interesting question, isn't it?
_RAGNAR_  [Team Member]
3/27/2007 11:47:12 PM
very few people need IVs. Unless you are sure you have stopped the cause of the fluid loss and it will stay stopped when you increase the fluid, don't give one.

Could you stick a non sterile solution inside someone? Sure, but why? and what situation can you imagine that it would be required and better than not?

Unlike the movies, people do not need bullets taken out and there is very little reason to "go in" and fix anything. Or if there is a reason to go in and fix them, it is very very doubtful you can pull it off withour real blood to put in them.(even if you have the skills to fix the problem.

IVs are overrated
Country_Boy  [Member]
3/28/2007 12:41:26 AM
I don't buy into being prepaired to do IVs for GSW/Trauma, but if you are talking about treating dehydration due to some other condition (ie untreated flu), administering NS ain't rocket science.

It used to be common to makeup IV solutions from tap water. Getting it sterile isn't hard (pressure cooker), getting rid of pyrogens would be harder. For this reason I would prefilter with a Katadyn or similar filter. Aparently in the fifties they didn't worry about pyrogens, though prepacked solutions were probally distilled. A neighbor MD in his 90s pointed out that back then IVs were typically used for volume expansion and severe dehydration, not for easy med delivery as they are today. So if a few pts had worse outcomes due to pyrogens or infections it was probally blamed on the sickness/trauma that put the patient in the hospital.

As to the rectal administration of fluids (vs meds), it is commonly recomended for offshore boaters. Not only does it work when the patient can't keep fluids down, but it also works when the water is unsutable for drinking. In this case you want pure water not saline. And the salt needs to be replaced somehow.

BTW, if you want reusable enema kits, they are available as a fetish item on the net. Much better quality then the disposable hospital units.
EXPY37  [Member]
3/28/2007 12:55:04 AM

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
introduction of bacteria directly into the bloodstream is a VERY bad thing.


Sure, just look at all the IV drug users dropping dead like flies from secondary infection...
agb104983  [Member]
3/28/2007 8:08:21 PM
i am not an expert about this in any way, shape or form but i am in college studying biology and one of my professors talked about this once. besides the risks of infection that go along with non-sterile, homemade IV products(which have been discussed a lot already) is the issue of the NaCl(salt) and water ratios. Human blood has a specific ratios of NaCl and water. If you were to misjudge the amount of salt(bad) or just use pure water(VERY bad), you could cause severe cell damage. If the concentration of salt in the bloodstream decreased very quickly and significantly, such as adding a homemade IV solution with a low concentration of salt, the water in the bloodstream will flow through the red blood cell membrane because the concentration of salt inside the cell stayed the same. without going into too much detail, water will flow into the cell until the concentration of salt in the blood is the same as the concentration of salt in the cell. imagine like the cell is a balloon that is already full and then you pump more water into it. the cell will burst. so, by adding the wrong homemade IV fluids, you have a good chance of killing the person within minutes. im not saying it can't be done but there can be much bigger problems to worry about besides bacteria. sorry if i got a bit technical. short version: even pure and sterile homemade IV's can be very very bad.
MarianLibrarian  [Member]
3/28/2007 8:11:08 PM

Originally Posted By Paveway_:
Ok I saw shooter last night, and he gives himself a IV, after using quick clot to plug is bullet wounds, but he has lost a lot of blood.

Is this possible with regular stuff -purified water, sugar, salt? Don't know. I mean its just a salien solution isn't it.

Anyone know how to do it...


QS cringed when we saw that - he thought that Swagger was trying to make ORS based on the ingredients he asked for...he said no way in hell would that improvised IV work.
GR8TWYT  [Team Member]
3/28/2007 8:18:25 PM

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
introduction of bacteria directly into the bloodstream is a VERY bad thing.


That's okay - then all you have to do is scrape some moldy bread for your homemade antibiotic recipe! Here's another suggestion: if you wanna be a trained killer like some of us are, check the curriculum at your local community college, where you can learn at an affordable price at your own pace. You'll be the man if yhere is a SHTF situation, and you may be able to turn your paranoia/hobby into some extra cash riding the shit-box for a FD or ambulance company.
Waldo  [Moderator]
3/28/2007 8:33:52 PM



Ok, there is a lot of bad/misinformation in this thread but no COC violation, so do your own Due diligence with regards to anything you read here



medic707  [Team Member]
3/28/2007 8:35:11 PM
WOW one word "Septicemia".
I didnt read this whole thread but im sure as others have said this is a horrible idea.
I understand people are fascinated by things like this especially after seeing movies like shooter and think and IV is a cure all miracle intervention but they are not. In a trauma pt all IV fluid replacement is going to do is Prolong death period, By buyin you some more time to get to surgery when someone’s bp is takin a dump and by "buy you time" i mean minutes not hrs. We dont have IV solutions that carry O2 so its only volume replacement to raise bp (now ive read about synthetic blood but i dont use it but have heard there have been major problems with it). Now heat related problems, dehydration ect. are different stories but still bad idea to use home made IV solution.
And remember Paramedics dont save lives we prolong death... Dr and surgeons save lives ........ for the most part
444  [Team Member]
3/28/2007 8:36:38 PM
No one has even brought up the idea of what this IV was supposed to accomplish.
As has been said many times: trauma is a surgical disease.
If you have a significant gunshot wound. A gunshot wound that is a true emergency. A gunshot wound where you are going to have a fluid volume loss that needs to be stabilized with IV fluids to keep blood presure up so vital organs are perfused: you need to be in an OR right this fucking minute. A bag of IV fluid: the real thing or home made is like pissing in the wind.
It isn't going to save your life.
I love to read these topics where people post comments without having any understanding what so ever about what is going. They have seen a little TV and think they know something.

I have no idea what a bunch of GIs starting IVs on themselves while playing cards has to do with treating a gunshot wound with home made IV solution.
FrankSquid  [Site Staff]
3/28/2007 8:55:04 PM

Originally Posted By Waldo:


Ok, there is a lot of bad/misinformation in this thread but no COC violation, so do your own Due diligence with regards to anything you read here






You are correct, there is no rule for locking these "Hey, hold my beer and watch this..." threads.


There is, however, this little gem...

Situations which have not been covered in this code of conduct may arise and will be handled by moderators and staff who have been carefully chosen to treat such issues with fairness. The frequency of such situations will guide the staff to make changes to this code of conduct as necessary.



.
SYSTEM MESSAGE  
3/28/2007 8:56:36 PM
beyond the scope of the survival forum
SYSTEM MESSAGE  
3/28/2007 8:58:10 PM
See above post
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