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 Recommended my first article 15 today...
leatherpuke  [Member]
6/9/2006 7:43:00 AM EST
I've been an NCO for 5 years now, and today I had to do my first counseling statement recommending article 15.

This kid is a SPC with about 3 years in the Army. He's been down range and earned the combat action badge. I've been his squad leader since January and I've had nothing but problems with him. Never anything major, just little shit like not standing at parade rest when he talks to an NCO, not ironing his BDU's, not cleaning his weapon in the field, and similar stuff.

But this morning, him and another Soldier were goofing around while we were waiting to piss in a cup. He slapped the other Soldier in the back of the head and one of my Team Leaders told him to push. He gets down in the front leaning rest and says, " I'm not going to push because I have to piss." The NCO then tells him again to push and he says, " What are you going to do, give me an article 15? Make sure you spell my name right."

I am not a paper work NCO, I believe in correcting the problem with verbal counseling and occasionally some physical corrective training. But this kid has pushed me too far.

Come to find out, him and his wife are filing for divorce. I didn't know this until after he had dis-respected my NCO.

SO my question is, am I right in recommending article 15? Or should I wait and see if anger management course solve the problem?

My instinct is to burn him. He did this shit in front of 50+ Soldiers. I don't want anyone else thinking they can get away with this.

What do you all think?

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Possum-Sandwich  [Team Member]
6/9/2006 7:47:18 AM EST
Summarized Article 15 plus corrective training. He gets punished, and the unit will know he got punished. But, since it doesn't go in his fiche, he'll still have the tools to succeed and become a quality soldier later. (If he wants to.) The divorce issue is probably what's causing him to act out. He's not focused on the mission. After that's blown over he may want to become a good NCO.
Garand_Shooter  [Team Member]
6/9/2006 7:52:43 AM EST

Originally Posted By Possum-Sandwich:
Summarized Article 15 plus corrective training. He gets punished, and the unit will know he got punished. But, since it doesn't go in his fiche, he'll still have the tools to succeed and become a quality soldier later. (If he wants to.) The divorce issue is probably what's causing him to act out. He's not focused on the mission. After that's blown over he may want to become a good NCO.



+1, and make sure he understands that it is being kept summarized because you see that there may be potential in him.
native4alpha  [Member]
6/9/2006 9:45:23 AM EST
Max him! I fucking hate problem children, if they're stupid thats one thing. but a shitty attitude seldom fixes itself. He thinks the fact that his marriage is goint to shit is an excuse for him to act like a spoiled little bitch. You mess with the bull you get the horns....simple as that. After he pays for his mistakes, I doubt he'll make those same ones again, if he does you could always send him to Bn with the rest of the fuck ups, retards, and broke-dicks
Brohawk  [Team Member]
6/9/2006 10:09:55 AM EST

Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter:

Originally Posted By Possum-Sandwich:
Summarized Article 15 plus corrective training. He gets punished, and the unit will know he got punished. But, since it doesn't go in his fiche, he'll still have the tools to succeed and become a quality soldier later. (If he wants to.) The divorce issue is probably what's causing him to act out. He's not focused on the mission. After that's blown over he may want to become a good NCO.



+1, and make sure he understands that it is being kept summarized because you see that there may be potential in him.



Sounds like the ticket.

Emphasize that HE has the ability to salvage this by modifying his behavior, but that adolescent attitudes will just dig the hole deeper.
fosdick  [Member]
6/9/2006 10:55:05 AM EST
What kind of unit is this? Are you an RA combat unit? I assume you are not in country. As this man's NCO, his squad leader, you should have known what his problem is. You are not close enough to your men - there aren't that many in a squad unless the milirary has changed all that much.

I remember a buck sergeant putting a yong SP4 up on charges for goofing off - didn't harm anyone, wasn't really a chargeable offense but "they didn't like him". He actually was a pretty good soldier and did what he was told to do - he wasn't career material but passable. The buckaroo got pats on his back. Unit morale dropped. Productivity dropped. Another straw was placed on the back of the camel.

RE
"Max him! I fucking hate problem children, if they're stupid thats one thing. but a shitty attitude seldom fixes itself. He thinks the fact that his marriage is goint to shit is an excuse for him to act like a spoiled little bitch. You mess with the bull you get the horns....simple as that. After he pays for his mistakes, I doubt he'll make those same ones again, if he does you could always send him to Bn with the rest of the fuck ups, retards, and broke-dicks"

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Fortunately, people with yours don't usually get too far in the military because at one point someone with sense figures out what you are about. People like you were the major cause of low re-enlistment rates. There are other ways to handle things like this and what you describe.

To continue the story from above, it turned out that the Col.'s daughter was seeing this young man and the Col. didn't like it. The story didn't end there. Because morale was dropping, productivity started dropping. Command was unhappy and boosted the level of general chickenshit - has the army changed all that much in 20+ years? As morale sank further, productivity sank. The level of corrective chickenshit rose.

It all culminated in a visit from DIRNSA, who made a point of asking some SP4s and SP5s how they were. The Col. didn't like the answer. Neither did DIRNSA. A week later, someone came from Theater HQ to look into the matter. Two weeks later, a major and some senior NCOs left abruptly.

Know your men and treat them fairly. Lead them to be good soldiers and they will return the act. The guy described doesn't sound like he could have profited from a direct and firm correction, in front of 50 men, an immediate counseling session and assignment to duties that yould have allowed you to closely supervise his progress and help him get over the shit he is in.

F
Slacker  [Team Member]
6/9/2006 11:02:20 AM EST
Flutter kicks....nuff said.
Mr_Happyface  [Member]
6/9/2006 11:05:10 AM EST
Take it easy on him, with the summarized.

But give him a SHIT LOAD of extra duty, in a nice visable place so the other guys know that that shit does not fly.

Then explain to him why you did it.




My seargeant did that to me when I did something along the same line, it really is the way to go.





SteelonSteel  [Member]
6/9/2006 11:24:53 AM EST
Back in the day it would have been wall to wall counselling.

I wouldn't stress this one, he literally asked for it and has only an ok track record. I certainly would go ahead with the NJP.

You really do need a closed door counselling session with him, I am NOT recommending the wall to wall version. His welfare is your units welfare, do what you can for him, maybe you can reach him and show him he has potential.

I am out now, but recently had been dating an active duty sgt. She had full knowledge of a drug user in her section that she was friends with. I was disappointed that she didn't do anything about it. She left it up to the Army "piss in a cup test" to catch him 10 months later. (The spec's 2nd hot test). All I could tell her that it was her duty to deal with it or else she or someone else will deal with it later and hopefully not while in a combat zone or after a catostrophy.
JCV  [Member]
6/9/2006 11:38:08 AM EST
No matter his personal situation, he needs to realize that shit will not fly. Ive been out almost 10 years, but I doubt little has changed as far as showing respect to NCOs.

We took pride in the fact that we never wrote charge sheets....................usually gave the Marine in question incentive to act like a Marine (i.e. run his dick in the dirt, have a "meeting" with him and the other NCOs in the platoon , ect.) There are many things that you can do.

I never wrote a charge sheet because Ive seen some of the most worthless shitbirds become great NCOs. I wouldnt want to be responsible for ruining a potential career.
TomJefferson  [Team Member]
6/9/2006 11:47:54 AM EST
Don't know pal. In my day you could have just kicked his ass or better let the platoon do it by punishing all of them for his misconduct.

I can say remember you may be the biggest dick in the US Army but those stripes demand the respect even if you don't.

Tj
leatherpuke  [Member]
6/9/2006 7:54:54 PM EST

Originally Posted By fosdick:
What kind of unit is this? Are you an RA combat unit? I assume you are not in country. As this man's NCO, his squad leader, you should have known what his problem is. You are not close enough to your men - there aren't that many in a squad unless the milirary has changed all that much.

I remember a buck sergeant putting a yong SP4 up on charges for goofing off - didn't harm anyone, wasn't really a chargeable offense but "they didn't like him". He actually was a pretty good soldier and did what he was told to do - he wasn't career material but passable. The buckaroo got pats on his back. Unit morale dropped. Productivity dropped. Another straw was placed on the back of the camel.

RE
"Max him! I fucking hate problem children, if they're stupid thats one thing. but a shitty attitude seldom fixes itself. He thinks the fact that his marriage is goint to shit is an excuse for him to act

like a spoiled little bitch. You mess with the bull you get the horns....simple as that. After he pays for his mistakes, I doubt he'll make those same ones again, if he does you could always send him to Bn with the rest of the fuck ups, retards, and broke-dicks"

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Fortunately, people with yours don't usually get too far in the military because at one point someone with sense figures out what you are about. People like you were the major cause of low re-enlistment rates. There are other ways to handle things like this and what you describe.

To continue the story from above, it turned out that the Col.'s daughter was seeing this young man and the Col. didn't like it. The story didn't end there. Because morale was dropping, productivity started dropping. Command was unhappy and boosted the level of general chickenshit - has the army changed all that much in 20+ years? As morale sank further, productivity sank. The level of corrective chickenshit rose.

It all culminated in a visit from DIRNSA, who made a point of asking some SP4s and SP5s how they were. The Col. didn't like the answer. Neither did DIRNSA. A week later, someone came from Theater HQ to look into the matter. Two weeks later, a major and some senior NCOs left abruptly.

Know your men and treat them fairly. Lead them to be good soldiers and they will return the act. The guy described doesn't sound like he could have profited from a direct and firm correction, in front of 50 men, an immediate counseling session and assignment to duties that yould have allowed you to closely supervise his progress and help him get over the shit he is in.

F



I know my Soldiers. But I can't help them with a problem if they don't tell me about it. You've been reading too many regulations.
leatherpuke  [Member]
6/9/2006 7:57:39 PM EST
Oh, and a summarized is out of the question. The PLT SGT won't allow it. It's Comapny Grade for this guy.

The part that kills me is that this guy wants to re-enlist and make a career out of the Army. He's just really immature for his age.

Anyway, thanks for the input. I think I'm doing the right thing.
Recon_by_Fire  [Member]
6/9/2006 8:01:40 PM EST
Off the wall counseling session and smoked in PT. Just needs an attitude adjustment. If that doesn't work then start UCMJ and start the process towards his eventual early seperation.
Sukebe  [Member]
6/9/2006 11:21:00 PM EST
Let me get this straight. It's customary in the Army to make a soldier do pushups as corrective discipline? WTF?

Is the Army really that F'd up? I did 4 years in the USMC and 4 years in the Guard. Other than bootcamp, if anyone had told me to "push", I would have told him to piss up a rope.
Bohr_Adam  [Team Member]
6/9/2006 11:54:16 PM EST

Originally Posted By leatherpuke:
Oh, and a summarized is out of the question. The PLT SGT won't allow it. It's Comapny Grade for this guy.

The part that kills me is that this guy wants to re-enlist and make a career out of the Army. He's just really immature for his age.

Anyway, thanks for the input. I think I'm doing the right thing.



It really isn't the Platoon Sergeants decision to make .

As a man who has commanded two different companies, I can tell you the summarized is a VERY under-utilized tool. A lot is due to the attitude of your Platoon Sergeant. Instead, they wait to bring it to the command level until they have a major discipline violation.

Oddly, I was just talking with my Trial Counsel about that this very morning (errh... I guess yesterday morning now).
Slacker  [Team Member]
6/10/2006 2:24:11 AM EST
Using pushups, flutter kicks etc is a very common means to reach a desired end.
I know its a foriegn concept to the Navy/USMC crowd, but it works.




Originally Posted By Sukebe:
Let me get this straight. It's customary in the Army to make a soldier do pushups as corrective discipline? WTF?

Is the Army really that F'd up? I did 4 years in the USMC and 4 years in the Guard. Other than bootcamp, if anyone had told me to "push", I would have told him to piss up a rope.

Possum-Sandwich  [Team Member]
6/10/2006 5:26:10 AM EST

Originally Posted By leatherpuke:
Oh, and a summarized is out of the question. The PLT SGT won't allow it. It's Comapny Grade for this guy.

The part that kills me is that this guy wants to re-enlist and make a career out of the Army. He's just really immature for his age.

Anyway, thanks for the input. I think I'm doing the right thing.


That's too bad about that the PLT SGT won't allow it. Well, maybe the SPC can overcome an Art. 15 later on.

Although, as Bohr_Adam said, it does come down to what the commander wants to do. If he says no Company Grade, then that's what happens.

Talk to your Trial Counsel if you can. Be careful, as I don't know what your unit's policy is on contacting the TC. I'm sure the commander is allowed to, but sometimes the higher NCO's will get bent out of shape if an NCO calls the TC directly. Normally there's no problem with talking to your BN legal specialist, though.

Don't sweat it too much. They soldier was warned what would happen, and he knew the consequences. He needs to learn that disrespect to the COC won't be tolerated, especially in front of others. While I think wall-to-wall would be an excellent solution, that's not allowed in the new Army. So, he's got to be punished.

I'm an ex-Trial Counsel, by the way.
TANGOCHASER  [Team Member]
6/10/2006 5:26:52 AM EST
He was disrespectful to a leader in front of other soldiers and he failed to follow an order. His punishment needs to painful or all the soldiers will think it's ok to be disrepectful and that the soldier got away with it. If you do not, it will happen again. A divorce is not grounds to be disrespectful.

Disrespect to a leader can not be tolerated and needs to delt with harshly. Failure to deal with this appropriately will erode your leadership abilities within your platoon.

Don't give in to anyone who tells you to pat him on the head and tell him not to do it again. He has established himself as a problem child. Give him a painful ART15. If he doesn't start soldiering after that, chapter his ass and send him home. In this day and age of multiple combat deployments, leaders do not have time to deal with sustandard soldiers. I'm willing to bet, this soldier is having a negative effect on moral within the team/section/platoon.

The question I have is, if this soldier has been nothing but trouble, have you written counseling statements for his other failures to comply with regulations? If not, you are behind the power curve as it will look like this is his first offense.

I delt with soldiers like this on a regular basis as a 1SG and have seen how bad it can permiate and destroy unit cohesion if not delt with swiftly and harshly.
fosdick  [Member]
6/10/2006 11:03:07 AM EST
After reading the specifics and the above additions -


"But this morning, him and another Soldier were goofing around while we were waiting to piss in a cup. He slapped the other Soldier in the back of the head and one of my Team Leaders told him to push. He gets down in the front leaning rest and says, " I'm not going to push because I have to piss." The NCO then tells him again to push and he says, " What are you going to do, give me an article 15? Make sure you spell my name right."


It appears to me that this command is not very healthy. The company CO is probably a product of the Batttalion or whatever kind of organizatin it may be attached to. This does not appear to be a line combat unit. for a number of reasons. I would be surprised (and disappointed) if this is so and if this is a regular army unit.

In my humble, old school military opinion, it appears that there is an Jr. NCO within the squad that needs to be shown a different manner of keeping his troops in line. I can't figure how the nature of the original offense, giving his bud a smarts tap while in line for a piss test. could warrant an Jr. NCO meting out PT discipline and then being rewarded (by A15ing the SPC) for empolying questionable leadership. I suppose everybody is supposed to stand at parade rest and "be serious" while in line for a piss test? Going around and having people drop for that is training unit stuff, not the way you run a regular unit. The CPL needs close instruction on leadership. The Squad Leader - that'd be you leatherpuke - needs to figure out how to improve knowledge of his troops. When there are signs that there are problems, you start digging, you don't wait for the guy to come to you, unless you want things like this to get out of hand. Not knowing your men well enough can get people killed in line combat units.


ex-1Sgt Tangochaser, I would not have liked to serve in a unit with you. You would not have cut it in my day, at least not in my unit. I can just see you backing up an NCO that ordered one of my analysts or operators to do pushups after cutting up and then A15ing him for refusing to drop. There would have been a discussion, to start. If you had habitually acted in this manner and disrupted operations, you would have gotten rid of , through channels.

There is no question that discipline is one of the key elements of success of any military mission. The problem is, when you start treating the troops like that, unit effectiveness drops as does tht unflinching adherence to chickenshit orders rises.

F
native4alpha  [Member]
6/10/2006 11:35:18 AM EST
I had a boot in my ass for my first year in the Army and it was the best thing for me. My team leader, squad leader and PSG didn't give a fuck what my personal situation was-if I fucked up I got punished. More than once, my TL took me into the woodline for a "counseling session" that was akin to the "wall to wall" of the good ole days-it made me a much better troop and if I could find the guy today, I'd tell him thanks.

This "kindler, gentler" shit is ruining the Army. A perfect example; while I was in Baghdad a joe in my plt was told to secure an alley during a firefight. He flat out told his TL "fuck you I ain't doing it" Instead of getting his ass kicked right there on the spot and having his weapon taken away his TL had to send another soldier to do it. I know this NCO and he is one of the best-in no way a douchebag w/ stripes. Upon returning to the FOB his TL reccommended he be brought up on charges. But due to the fact that we "can't treat em rough" our pussified PSG reccommended him for a field grade article 15 and when he went to see the Bn CMDR he gave this sob story about "don't take my money, I have a wife and kids to feed, blah blah fuckin blah" of course in the "new" Army, it basically dissappeared and he got off scot-free. What kind of example is that? Its okay to disobey and order??? Fuck that!! Its weak ass shit like that that made me run for the door! If joe can't be punished with anything besides extra duty then whats the point of even having rules and regulations? There aren't any consquences anymore...


and it isn't people like me that contribute to lower reenlistments-its people who would rather coddle joe than kick him in the ass. If you keep cutting your troops slack then eventually your word doesn't mean shit and they'll do whatever the fuck they want. Whether they'll admit it or not, joe's know that they need a boot in their ass.
fosdick  [Member]
6/10/2006 1:04:33 PM EST
I see a gaping chasm between the troop that gave his buddy a smarts tap and your fuckup that refused to cover an alley. Night and day. Difference ? A15, different level, combat situation vs. ??ß what kind of unit is that and where are you leatherpuke?

N4alpha, can you see one of your guys getting what the SPC got for what he did in your unit? Well, one might argue, we don't have piss tests in country. That's good. I guess that a lot of other chickenshit is also missing that one finds in non-combat and/or behind-the-lines deployed units.

F
ChrisLe  [Team Member]
6/10/2006 1:12:23 PM EST

Originally Posted By Sukebe:
Let me get this straight. It's customary in the Army to make a soldier do pushups as corrective discipline? WTF?

Is the Army really that F'd up? I did 4 years in the USMC and 4 years in the Guard. Other than bootcamp, if anyone had told me to "push", I would have told him to piss up a rope.



Unless things have changed if a Marine drops a weapon, he pushes! Its instinctive..He doesn't even have to be told...
Sukebe  [Member]
6/10/2006 2:44:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By ChrisLe:

Originally Posted By Sukebe:
Let me get this straight. It's customary in the Army to make a soldier do pushups as corrective discipline? WTF?

Is the Army really that F'd up? I did 4 years in the USMC and 4 years in the Guard. Other than bootcamp, if anyone had told me to "push", I would have told him to piss up a rope.



Unless things have changed if a Marine drops a weapon, he pushes! Its instinctive..He doesn't even have to be told...



Maybe in the Grunts...
vengarr  [Member]
6/10/2006 3:01:20 PM EST
Not in the military, but I do manage a team of 12-22 people. I would sit him down and lay the law, explain what he did was disrespectful and you could article 15 him( what is that any way?). Put him on the most grueling and nastiest duty you can for punishment and explain if he looks crosseyed at a higher ranking soldier? Officer? That you will bring the thunder down.
His personal life is his business, work is work, military or no. He has to seperate the two.
ChrisLe  [Team Member]
6/10/2006 3:07:59 PM EST

Originally Posted By Sukebe:

Originally Posted By ChrisLe:

Originally Posted By Sukebe:
Let me get this straight. It's customary in the Army to make a soldier do pushups as corrective discipline? WTF?

Is the Army really that F'd up? I did 4 years in the USMC and 4 years in the Guard. Other than bootcamp, if anyone had told me to "push", I would have told him to piss up a rope.



Unless things have changed if a Marine drops a weapon, he pushes! Its instinctive..He doesn't even have to be told...



Maybe in the Grunts...



Is there any other type? Definitely the Grunts!
nf9648  [Member]
6/10/2006 5:48:51 PM EST

Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter:

Originally Posted By Possum-Sandwich:
Summarized Article 15 plus corrective training. He gets punished, and the unit will know he got punished. But, since it doesn't go in his fiche, he'll still have the tools to succeed and become a quality soldier later. (If he wants to.) The divorce issue is probably what's causing him to act out. He's not focused on the mission. After that's blown over he may want to become a good NCO.



+1, and make sure he understands that it is being kept summarized because you see that there may be potential in him.



I had a similar issue with a kid at Hood, after the extra duty was over he was pretty squared away. Real drama queen though.
Bohr_Adam  [Team Member]
6/10/2006 6:32:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By fosdick:
I see a gaping chasm between the troop that gave his buddy a smarts tap and your fuckup that refused to cover an alley. Night and day. Difference ? A15, different level, combat situation vs. ??ß what kind of unit is that and where are you leatherpuke?

N4alpha, can you see one of your guys getting what the SPC got for what he did in your unit? Well, one might argue, we don't have piss tests in country. That's good. I guess that a lot of other chickenshit is also missing that one finds in non-combat and/or behind-the-lines deployed units.

F



A lawful order is a lawful order.

Soldiers need to learn where to draw the line. Too often, during a leaders attempt to bond as humans with subordinates, and some subordinated can't figure out where the line is. Clearly, this Soldier thinks he is "friends" with his superiors and the rules do not apply to him. To do nothing would be to reinforce this falsehood.

As a Commander, there is no way I would pursue a company grade on this guy, though. Summarized is the answer - unless there are more counselings and a history that has not been brought up. Odds are good the Trial Counsel will advise the Commander to that effect should he pursue more than a summarized.

Maybe in an MI unit things are different, but I doubt it.
pbaeod  [Member]
6/11/2006 4:42:06 AM EST
I agree with Adam Bohr wether he should have had to push or not. He was told to push and refused a lawful order from his first line supervisor. Taking a piss test has to be atleast conducted with enough seriousness that it can conducted accurately. What ever it takes to do that is whatever it takes and it's alot easier if you don't have a bunch of joes acting like 12 year olds. an Article 15 may not be necessary but some sort of corrective training involving what a direct order is and what is required in a proper urinealysis. Ethier way there alot of diffrent ways to lead soldiers so just go with your gut.
native4alpha  [Member]
6/11/2006 7:32:52 AM EST
fosdick- the reason I brought up the sit in baghdad is because I feel like this is the type of troop our Army is producing because of a lack of discipline and consequences nowadays. I'm not a fan of putting stuff on paper, I'd rather smoke joe than give him something that will follow him around. But a joe that won't push or has an attitude (since you can't whip their asses anymore) needs to get the book thrown at him hard and fast the first time. That way they'll hopefully only have the one art 15 in their file.

Guess my method of keeping the peace doesn't jive with everybody else, but I don't want some snot-nosed punk getting someone killed over there.
Bend  [Member]
6/11/2006 7:45:28 AM EST
"He's been down range and earned the combat action badge. I've been his squad leader since January and I've had nothing but problems with him. Never anything major, just little shit like not standing at parade rest when he talks to an NCO, not ironing his BDU's, not cleaning his weapon in the field, and similar stuff."

"... him and his wife are filing for divorce. "

Your troop is in mild depression bordering on PTSD. Counsel him, bust his chops and get him to a shrink!
Bohr_Adam  [Team Member]
6/11/2006 7:59:17 AM EST

Originally Posted By native4alpha:
fosdick- the reason I brought up the sit in baghdad is because I feel like this is the type of troop our Army is producing because of a lack of discipline and consequences nowadays. I'm not a fan of putting stuff on paper, I'd rather smoke joe than give him something that will follow him around. But a joe that won't push or has an attitude (since you can't whip their asses anymore) needs to get the book thrown at him hard and fast the first time. That way they'll hopefully only have the one art 15 in their file.

Guess my method of keeping the peace doesn't jive with everybody else, but I don't want some snot-nosed punk getting someone killed over there.



Counseling does not "follow you around." For a junior enlisted Soldier, a summarized article 15 does not even "follow you around." ONLY something filed in your officl fiche "follows you around" - and that requires a standard Company Grade Article 15.

Honestly, this misconception is more pervasive than any AR15 related gunshow nonsense.

A summarized article 15 simply empowers the chain of command with the legal ability to punish a soldier for minor infractions. Everything else done to a Soldier up and to that point can only be "corrective training."
Shrike9  [Team Member]
6/11/2006 10:32:42 AM EST
Doing pushups as punishment is against the UCMJ and if this troop wanted to push the issue could bring charges up against the NCO for punishing him when it's not the NCO's job to punish troops.

Course it also shows a lack of leadership on the NCO's part, not to mention faling as a NCO in knowing his troops and what's going on in there lives like a good NCO should.

But then again you have NCo's and you have Sgt's.
native4alpha  [Member]
6/11/2006 10:45:33 AM EST
WTF??? It is against UCMJ to make a troop push? Damn I am glad I don't have to deal with this touchy feely horseshit anymore......next thing you know TL's will have to say pretty please before telling some troop do his job..... Its no wonder my suggestion has caught nothing but shit, guess from now on I'll keep my own brand of discipline to myself.

Bohr_Adam  [Team Member]
6/11/2006 11:02:36 AM EST

Originally Posted By native4alpha:
WTF??? It is against UCMJ to make a troop push? Damn I am glad I don't have to deal with this touchy feely horseshit anymore......next thing you know TL's will have to say pretty please before telling some troop do his job..... Its no wonder my suggestion has caught nothing but shit, guess from now on I'll keep my own brand of discipline to myself.




Thats not what he said.

He said it is against the UCMJ for NCOs to punish troops. Whether push-ups are punishment or training is a matter of semantics.

Bottom line - if the intent is to PUNISH, the chain of command MUST , at a minimum, pursue a summarized article 15. This process is not "touchy feely" or a "softening" the Army, it is just stopping vindictive NCOs from hazing troops. No hazing is allowed without the express written consent of the unit commander .

If an NCO is unable to articulate to his commander why a soldier needs to be punished - the Soldier probably should not be being punished.
leatherpuke  [Member]
6/12/2006 10:32:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By Shrike9:
Doing pushups as punishment is against the UCMJ and if this troop wanted to push the issue could bring charges up against the NCO for punishing him when it's not the NCO's job to punish troops.

Course it also shows a lack of leadership on the NCO's part, not to mention faling as a NCO in knowing his troops and what's going on in there lives like a good NCO should.

But then again you have NCo's and you have Sgt's.



Show me the REG!

PT is a perfectly legal and justifiable form of NJP. So unless you can show me the regulation that says otherwise, have a big cup of STFU.

Not the NCO's job to punish troops? What Army were YOU in? The salvation Army? Wow......just.....wow.


TO everyone else, thanks for the input. It's good to hear opposing viewpoints once in a while, it makes you think, ya know.

I've decided to try and stick up for this guy and convince the CO to let him keep his rank. But I am going to push for extra duty and restriction.

And for the record, I know my damn troops. This kid purposely kept this information from me because in his words " I don't like to tell people my problems."
TANGOCHASER  [Team Member]
6/12/2006 11:17:08 AM EST
There is a regulation that says corrective action must be directly related to the deficiency of the soldier. Unless he is weak at PT, no JAG lawyer will allow that soldier to be given an ART15 for not doing PUs in this instance. The ART15 should be for disrespect not failure to follow orders. All his other counseling statements, if any, for screwing up can be used for a "failure to adapt" or "for the good of the service" chapter.

I don't have the regulation in front of me as I haven't used it since I was 1SG but your 1SG should have it, JAG definitely has it. The reg was changed after the hazing fiasco years ago. No more guarding trash cans in full gear, carrying a 2x4 for loosing his weapon in the field etc.

You might get away with it for a summarized ART15 as the soldier does not get to go to Leagal Assistance for a Summarized.
PlaymoreMinds  [Team Member]
6/12/2006 11:30:03 AM EST
Bohr_Adam is right on the money.
I was once given a summarized Article 15. I can tell you my offense wasn't quite so insubordinate, so perhaps that's why my CO didn't go insane. It merely reminded me that I was in the military and I had to act a certain way. I never forgot afterwards HOW I was SUPPOSED to act. And that's really all that you're trying to accomplish here. Too bad the summarized isn't an option.
rickdawggg  [Member]
6/12/2006 11:49:31 AM EST

Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:

Originally Posted By native4alpha:
fosdick- the reason I brought up the sit in baghdad is because I feel like this is the type of troop our Army is producing because of a lack of discipline and consequences nowadays. I'm not a fan of putting stuff on paper, I'd rather smoke joe than give him something that will follow him around. But a joe that won't push or has an attitude (since you can't whip their asses anymore) needs to get the book thrown at him hard and fast the first time. That way they'll hopefully only have the one art 15 in their file.

Guess my method of keeping the peace doesn't jive with everybody else, but I don't want some snot-nosed punk getting someone killed over there.



Counseling does not "follow you around." For a junior enlisted Soldier, a summarized article 15 does not even "follow you around." ONLY something filed in your officl fiche "follows you around" - and that requires a standard Company Grade Article 15.

Honestly, this misconception is more pervasive than any AR15 related gunshow nonsense.

A summarized article 15 simply empowers the chain of command with the legal ability to punish a soldier for minor infractions. Everything else done to a Soldier up and to that point can only be "corrective training."



so an A15 doesnt stay in your performance fiche? I have heard strange rumors of the subject but I am no legal expert. I know that if it goes in the resticted fiche, there is very LIMITED access to it, but in the performance fiche I dunno...
Shrike9  [Team Member]
6/12/2006 11:58:45 AM EST
leatherpuke, if you were a NCO instead of a Sgt you would know that the UCMJ is NOT a regulation and that a NCO does NOT have the authority to dish out punishment but as a NCO can administer punishment delt out by the commanding Officer.

Furthermore PT is NOT a form of NJP under the UCMJ unless you think it falls under "extra duties, including fatigue or other duties" but there again it's up to the commander to decide and not you.

Might be a good idea for you to read a few parts of the UCMJ and hopefully you can understand that as a NCO you CAN NOT legally give a troop an order to push as punishment.

If you were a NCO you would also know that it's possible to give the troop the option to push or recieve punnishment from the CO for his actions or lack of. If the NCO was to do it correctly is is not punishment but remedial training

Any NCO who punishes his or her troops without the commander handing out the punishment is in serious violation of the UCMJ & any NCO who prders a troop to push for punishment is in direct violation of the UCMJ.

When a NCO recommends NJP against one of his or her troops that NCO has failed the troop as a NCO as a good NCO would never let it get that far.

Oh and no matter what you say about knowing your troops if you were a NCO you would have known something was wrong and been able to find out what it was before his problems resulted in UCMJ action.

But wht do I know, I was only a NCO for 16 years.
Shrike9  [Team Member]
6/12/2006 12:04:22 PM EST

Originally Posted By TANGOCHASER:The ART15 should be for disrespect not failure to follow orders.


Ahhh, but is it disrespectful to refuse to follow a illegal order Where does one draw the line

If the troop would have followed thrugh with the orginal illegal order would it have been possible for him to go to his 1SG or legal and have that NCO brought up on charges, or could he even now go to legal and use this to get out of any NJP forthcoming.

Oh and leatherpuke, forgot to post this in the post above. Here is a on line copy of the UCMJ to help you.

Poke Here for the UCMJ
Bohr_Adam  [Team Member]
6/12/2006 2:24:51 PM EST

Originally Posted By rickdawggg:
...
so an A15 doesnt stay in your performance fiche? I have heard strange rumors of the subject but I am no legal expert. I know that if it goes in the resticted fiche, there is very LIMITED access to it, but in the performance fiche I dunno...



A summarized art 15 never leaves the Post, period. It will NOT be sent to PERSCOM / HRC. This may vary for NCOs - I am not positive, I know it is true for junior enlisted troops. Most issues involving NCOs that I have dealt with went straight to the field grade level.
rickdawggg  [Member]
6/12/2006 2:43:49 PM EST

Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:

Originally Posted By rickdawggg:
...
so an A15 doesnt stay in your performance fiche? I have heard strange rumors of the subject but I am no legal expert. I know that if it goes in the resticted fiche, there is very LIMITED access to it, but in the performance fiche I dunno...



A summarized art 15 never leaves the Post, period. It will NOT be sent to PERSCOM / HRC. This may vary for NCOs - I am not positive, I know it is true for junior enlisted troops. Most issues involving NCOs that I have dealt with went straight to the field grade level.



that's my understanding as well. Although the more I learn about Army paper trails, the more I feel lost in it
lheggland  [Member]
6/12/2006 7:00:06 PM EST

Originally Posted By leatherpuke:
I've been an NCO for 5 years now, and today I had to do my first counseling statement recommending article 15.

This kid is a SPC with about 3 years in the Army. He's been down range and earned the combat action badge. I've been his squad leader since January and I've had nothing but problems with him. Never anything major, just little shit like not standing at parade rest when he talks to an NCO(Boy I am glad I didn't join the Army, I don't do that talking to O-6s ), not ironing his BDU's, not cleaning his weapon in the field, and similar stuff.

But this morning, him and another Soldier were goofing around while we were waiting to piss in a cup. He slapped the other Soldier in the back of the head and one of my Team Leaders told him to push. He gets down in the front leaning rest and says, " I'm not going to push because I have to piss." The NCO then tells him again to push and he says, " What are you going to do, give me an article 15? Make sure you spell my name right."

I am not a paper work NCO, I believe in correcting the problem with verbal counseling and occasionally some physical corrective training. But this kid has pushed me too far.

Come to find out, him and his wife are filing for divorce. I didn't know this until after he had dis-respected my NCO.

SO my question is, am I right in recommending article 15? Or should I wait and see if anger management course solve the problem?

My instinct is to burn him. He did this shit in front of 50+ Soldiers. I don't want anyone else thinking they can get away with this.

What do you all think?




I know that the Army does unofficially allow their NCOs to make people push but it should never really be done outside of a training command. The UCMJ is very clear on what a Petty Officer or NCO can and can not do. We can give "extra duty" to correct deficiencies. We can not punish.

If this was just the straw that broke the camels back do what you have to do. If this is a good solider that just needs to grow up you should take a more creative tack. One of my favorites is essays. Everybody hates to write them and they make the individual think about what they did wrong.

I would also look carefully at how your junior NCO handles his people. In a situation like the one you described he should have pulled him out of the line and spoke to him in private. By doing what he did he turned a “knock it off kids” situation into a NJP.
bigsapper  [Team Member]
6/12/2006 7:12:42 PM EST
School of the Soldier.
leatherpuke  [Member]
6/14/2006 11:08:06 AM EST

Originally Posted By Shrike9:
leatherpuke, if you were a NCO instead of a Sgt you would know that the UCMJ is NOT a regulation and that a NCO does NOT have the authority to dish out punishment but as a NCO can administer punishment delt out by the commanding Officer.

Furthermore PT is NOT a form of NJP under the UCMJ unless you think it falls under "extra duties, including fatigue or other duties" but there again it's up to the commander to decide and not you.

Might be a good idea for you to read a few parts of the UCMJ and hopefully you can understand that as a NCO you CAN NOT legally give a troop an order to push as punishment.

If you were a NCO you would also know that it's possible to give the troop the option to push or recieve punnishment from the CO for his actions or lack of. If the NCO was to do it correctly is is not punishment but remedial training

Any NCO who punishes his or her troops without the commander handing out the punishment is in serious violation of the UCMJ & any NCO who prders a troop to push for punishment is in direct violation of the UCMJ.

When a NCO recommends NJP against one of his or her troops that NCO has failed the troop as a NCO as a good NCO would never let it get that far.

Oh and no matter what you say about knowing your troops if you were a NCO you would have known something was wrong and been able to find out what it was before his problems resulted in UCMJ action.

But wht do I know, I was only a NCO for 16 years.



Yep, and I'm sure that you ALWAYS knew EVERYTHING that was going on with your troops, right? Cuz, you were pulling surveilence on their houses at night and could hear them arguing with their spouses.

And I bet that when YOU were in, Soldiers ran 15 miles every morning in the snow.....barefoot.......uphill both ways. And they ate barbed wire for lunch and pissed bullets.


God, it must be great to be perfect.

I have 14 Soldiers that I am responsible for and this is the ONLY one that I'm having issues with. So in my book, I'm doing pretty good.

I came on here to ask some " seasoned" vets what I might have done wrong and how I should react. Instead, I get dis-gruntled retirees who only remember the good things they did, and want to criticize me.

Thanks, you're a hell of a leader.
Black-Tiger  [Member]
6/14/2006 11:22:58 AM EST
As an "NCO-to-be", I know that applying discipline to soldiers is part of being a good leader; if they do their jobs correctly and efficiently, you should commend them for it, not necesarily giving AAMs and ARCOMs left and right, but a pat on the back and a "good job" is often just as effective; however, if they don't perform up to standard and become sloppy (late for formation, lousy shaving and so forth), they should be held accountable.

This soldier seems to have an attitude problem, so an Article 15 is a good start; you have to remind that soldier that you are an NCO and that you are responsible for keeping not oly discipline within your team (or squad), but you are also responsible for his well-being.

My recommendation would be an Article 15 for disrespecting a non-commissioned officer, forfeit his pay for 15 days, 15 days restricted to barracks and 15 days extra duty (either CQ or picking up trash in the Bn, Area). I know its harsh, but you have nip it in the ass right there before it escalates into something more serious.

Just some advice from an old soldier.
bigsapper  [Team Member]
6/14/2006 4:54:37 PM EST

Originally Posted By leatherpuke:
I came on here to ask some " seasoned" vets what I might have done wrong and how I should react. Instead, I get dis-gruntled retirees who only remember the good things they did, and want to criticize me.

Thanks, you're a hell of a leader.



Not sure if you're addressing me (I don't think you are), but from what I understand from speaking frequently with current active duty personnel, there is a WORLD of difference between what an NCO can do today and what an NCO could do just 5 years ago, much less 10+ years ago.

In my 10 years of service, 8 of it was as an NCO. I got Corporal stripes pinned on with just more than 2 years TIS. And handed a "squad" with 16 dirtbags and 16 5-ton dump trucks (long story). As an E4 and E5 NCO, I got schooled by some 1SGs and CSMs about how to deal with my "problem children". This was in the mid '80s. If I were to even suggest something like that today, I'd probably be in Leavenworth making big'uns into little'uns.

I'll just say School of the Soldier. Ask some senior NCOs if they are familiar.

Shrike9  [Team Member]
6/14/2006 8:37:39 PM EST
Dis-gruntled retiree, that's a good one what can you come up with next

And you call yourself a NCO give me a break what's the Army doing promoting crybabies who refuse to accept responsibility and try to place blame on everybody else except themselves.

With this last post you have proven without a doubt you are not an NCO and are nothing more than a Sgt pretending to supervise 14 entire troops.

Run along now little big man & find another troop to throw a ART 15 at to make yourself feel important.


Originally Posted By leatherpuke:

Yep, and I'm sure that you ALWAYS knew EVERYTHING that was going on with your troops, right? Cuz, you were pulling surveilence on their houses at night and could hear them arguing with their spouses.

And I bet that when YOU were in, Soldiers ran 15 miles every morning in the snow.....barefoot.......uphill both ways. And they ate barbed wire for lunch and pissed bullets.


God, it must be great to be perfect.

I have 14 Soldiers that I am responsible for and this is the ONLY one that I'm having issues with. So in my book, I'm doing pretty good.

I came on here to ask some " seasoned" vets what I might have done wrong and how I should react. Instead, I get dis-gruntled retirees who only remember the good things they did, and want to criticize me.

Thanks, you're a hell of a leader.

Shrike9  [Team Member]
6/14/2006 8:39:29 PM EST
Ya think he's got the stones, or is afraid of what those Sr NCO's will say .........................................


Originally Posted By bigsapper:

I'll just say School of the Soldier. Ask some senior NCOs if they are familiar.


pbaeod  [Member]
6/14/2006 9:14:49 PM EST
Have you led in combat? Shrike9 seems know how the NCO is fucked up but has made little in the way of offering a means to resolve the conflict besides saying it's leaderships fault. If they guy is bringing his guys back from downrange he might be doing something right. If the Command says you can drop soldiers for minor infractions. Then your good if the soldiers refuses it's his ass. Were you an NCO or a babysitter I do not have the time to coddle JR troops my job is to lead them into combat mentor skills and leadership and to insure that my guys and equipment are ready to go. Pushups aren't punishment it's an on the spot oppurtunity for him to get his head out of his ass and stop dicking around. If the soldier want to act like a child he can get treated like a child. If the summarized doesn't fix it begin paper work for seperation.

Leatherpuke drive on.
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