AR15.Com Archives
 P38 vs MIG15
BarbarianPhilosopher  [Member]
8/4/2008 8:26:27 AM
Since both designed for high altitude bomber intercept/escort I am wondering how they would stack up at altitude. The situation I had in mind would be say 1950 P38s escorting B36s at 40,000' when jumped by MIGs. Since the MIG15 was brand new there are not as many of them as the P38s and unlike the P38 pilots the MIG drivers don't have much flying time in their aircraft.
FAIL-SAFE  [Team Member]
8/8/2008 8:23:56 PM
I figure if a Mig-15 is in trouble, he hits the accelerator, and lives to fight another day.

-Michael Dudikoff
SD307  [Member]
8/10/2008 5:35:42 PM
P-38s could not turn as tight, or dive as fast, or climb as fast, they also had less fire power: 4X50 MG & 1 X20mm cannon vs they heavier Migs 2X 23mm cannons and 1X37mm cannon.

It would take alot of luck for a P-38 to get one.

Look at it like this no p-38 ever dropped a Me262 and the Mig 15 was faster and could acclerate better. The P-47N was specifacally designed to take on the German Jets and might have a chance. Where did they end up?

LawTalkingGuy  [Team Member]
8/10/2008 6:27:26 PM
I believe it was actually the P-47M that was designed to take on the German jets. There was one fighter group's worth of planes built and they dropped 4 jets, very late in the war. The aircraft had a lot of technical problems.

A previous version, I think designated the "J", and never produced in any numbers, was actually a little faster, A lighter aircraft, with less armament and bigger engines. I believe it was the fastest prop driven fighter we had.

The P-47N was originally designed for long, overwater, escorting the Superfortresses for the bombing of the Japanese home islands. It did see action in Europe also.
Frank_The_Tank  [Team Member]
8/15/2008 10:35:35 PM
B-36 could outturn Mig-15 at high altitudes. So they would need to be very accurate on their initial pass or get torn up by the gunners from the -36.
Sgt_Gold  [Team Member]
8/16/2008 9:02:44 PM
WTF

The MIG-15 had a higher ceiling and much greater speed. You must be thinking of the B-47.

The P-38 is no match for the Mig-15 unless the Mig driver makes a mistake.


Originally Posted By Frank_The_Tank:
B-36 could outturn Mig-15 at high altitudes. So they would need to be very accurate on their initial pass or get torn up by the gunners from the -36.
4v50  [Member]
8/18/2008 10:18:16 PM
The P-51 escorted the recce version of the P-38 and the former couldn't tangle with the Me-262. That being the case, I'll put my money on the Mig-15.
steenroller  [Member]
8/22/2008 10:54:39 PM
The P38 wasn't in service much past the end of WWII. The P-51 and the F4U Corsair were the only WWII prop planes that saw US service in Korea. There were some other prop planes such as the Skyraider but they were introduced after the war. The prop planes had some kills against jets but it was rare. After the Mig 15 was introduced the prop jobs were mainly used for air support. There is no way a bomber, even a B-47, would turn with a jet fighter. The B-29s in Korea had to be escorted or they would have been slaughtered by the jets, which is why the F-86s were the primary escorts for the B-29s over North Korea. The guns of the bombers could protect against the fighters if they stayed close but all they would have to do to negate much of the effectiveness of the bombers gun is do a diving attack at high speed climb out of range and repeat.

The P-47M was actually developed to chase the V-1 buzz bomb, the German cruise missile, and were fairly effective. Did not stay in service long after WWII.
Mountain_Snipe  [Team Member]
8/27/2008 2:55:38 AM
Are you serious? MiG-15. Hell, it gave the F-86 a run for it's money.
Dave_Markowitz  [Team Member]
8/28/2008 8:45:19 PM

Originally Posted By steenroller:
...The P-51 and the F4U Corsair were the only WWII prop planes that saw US service in Korea. ...


Plus B-29s, and AT-6 Texans which were used as FAC aircraft in Korea. Also, IIRC, Avengers were used into the '50s as COD aircraft.
LawTalkingGuy  [Team Member]
8/29/2008 1:21:07 AM
There were also B17s used in both long range search and rescue, and photo recon/mapping roles.

B-26s carried out the first and the last bombing runs of the war.

PBY Catalinas were designated the OA-10 during the Korean War.

L-5 Sentinels were used in recon and artillery spotting roles.

There were a few others, that is all I recall at the moment.
SSFeldjager  [Member]
9/13/2008 9:48:46 PM
Are you referring to the can opener or the aircraft?
SteveV  [Member]
9/21/2008 4:31:17 PM

Originally Posted By SSFeldjager:
Are you referring to the can opener or the aircraft?


The can opener of course.

How long does it take to open a Mig-15 with a P-38 can opener?
BarbarianPhilosopher  [Member]
9/22/2008 12:04:20 AM
LOL!
Dave_A  [Team Member]
10/27/2008 5:35:16 AM
Originally Posted By BarbarianPhilosopher:
Since both designed for high altitude bomber intercept/escort I am wondering how they would stack up at altitude. The situation I had in mind would be say 1950 P38s escorting B36s at 40,000' when jumped by MIGs. Since the MIG15 was brand new there are not as many of them as the P38s and unlike the P38 pilots the MIG drivers don't have much flying time in their aircraft.
The MiG-15 and F-86 were roughly equal aircraft...

The Shooting Star (P-80) was WAY, WAY, WAY outclassed by the MiG - but IIRC at least one of them did get a MiG kill....

No way in hell a prop-job would have handled it....
Rick-OShay  [Team Member]
11/7/2008 8:08:25 PM
Originally Posted By Sgt_Gold:
WTF

The MIG-15 had a higher ceiling and much greater speed. You must be thinking of the B-47.

The P-38 is no match for the Mig-15 unless the Mig driver makes a mistake.

Originally Posted By Frank_The_Tank:
B-36 could outturn Mig-15 at high altitudes. So they would need to be very accurate on their initial pass or get torn up by the gunners from the -36.



You need to research a little concept called "wing loading". It was nothing unusual for B-36's, especially Featherweight models with the jets, to go to WEP, light the jets, and walk off (and up, and soetimes around) any jet, including F-86s, unlucky enough to be practicing intercepts on them.
Sgt_Gold  [Team Member]
11/7/2008 8:51:28 PM
How about some stats to back up your claim? My google-fu came up with these basic stats:

B36 Service ceiling 48,000 ft (15,000 m), 420 mph (365 knots, 685 km/h) with jets on.
MIG15 Service ceiling 15,500 m (50,850 ft), 1,075 km/h (668 mph).

The MIG has an almost 3k advantage in altitude, and over 200 MPH in top speed. I can see a B36 already at altitude being able to throttle up and escape, but if the MIG's are already airborne at at even moderate altitude there is no way for the bomber to escape.

Originally Posted By Rick-OShay:

You need to research a little concept called "wing loading". It was nothing unusual for B-36's, especially Featherweight models with the jets, to go to WEP, light the jets, and walk off (and up, and soetimes around) any jet, including F-86s, unlucky enough to be practicing intercepts on them.


Andras  [Member]
11/8/2008 11:11:57 PM
Service ceiling in US terms is defined as where the rate of climb is less then 200'/minute. Featherweight B36s can exceed 52,500' during cruise mode.

Lastly, when the Mig15 is at that altitude, it is directionally unstable and is not a suitable gun platform.
Rick-OShay  [Team Member]
11/9/2008 3:28:30 PM
Originally Posted By Sgt_Gold:
How about some stats to back up your claim? My google-fu came up with these basic stats:

B36 Service ceiling 48,000 ft (15,000 m), 420 mph (365 knots, 685 km/h) with jets on.
MIG15 Service ceiling 15,500 m (50,850 ft), 1,075 km/h (668 mph).

The MIG has an almost 3k advantage in altitude, and over 200 MPH in top speed. I can see a B36 already at altitude being able to throttle up and escape, but if the MIG's are already airborne at at even moderate altitude there is no way for the bomber to escape.

Originally Posted By Rick-OShay:

You need to research a little concept called "wing loading". It was nothing unusual for B-36's, especially Featherweight models with the jets, to go to WEP, light the jets, and walk off (and up, and soetimes around) any jet, including F-86s, unlucky enough to be practicing intercepts on them.




At altitude is how B-38s enter the AO - if they aren't, they dont go in. Featherweights apparently undertook unescorted recon flights over the USSR and Red China.

hobbsar  [Member]
11/9/2008 6:30:01 PM
One on one the P-38 is toast due to the MIG's superior speed and menuverability. A squadron might successfully down a MIG. The MIG wouldn't have to dogfight this though, He could do diving attacks, or strafe the P-38.
Rick-OShay  [Team Member]
11/11/2008 12:19:51 AM
Originally Posted By 4v50:
The P-51 escorted the recce version of the P-38....[/quote]

...that MIGHT have had something to do with the fact that the "recce" version of the P-38 had a nose full of cameras, instead of a nose full of machine guns and cannon.

Rick-OShay  [Team Member]
11/11/2008 12:20:58 AM
Originally Posted By SD307:
P-38s could not turn as tight, ...


Bong and McGuire would differ with you - they routinely turned -38s with Zeros.

Sgt_Gold  [Team Member]
11/11/2008 12:24:51 AM
Bong was not good at gunnery and scored most of his kills at close range by exploting speed and position. There is no way what so ever that a P-38 (or any) US WWII fighter could turn with a Japanese Zero and stay in the fight.

Originally Posted By Rick-OShay:
Originally Posted By SD307:
P-38s could not turn as tight, ...


Bong and McGuire would differ with you - they routinely turned -38s with Zeros.



fletchnuts  [Team Member]
11/11/2008 12:56:37 AM
I think it's a safe bet that the MiG-15 would stomp all over the P-38.
Rick-OShay  [Team Member]
11/13/2008 1:35:31 AM
Originally Posted By Sgt_Gold:
Bong was not good at gunnery and scored most of his kills at close range by exploting speed and position. There is no way what so ever that a P-38 (or any) US WWII fighter could turn with a Japanese Zero and stay in the fight.

Originally Posted By Rick-OShay:
Originally Posted By SD307:
P-38s could not turn as tight, ...


Bong and McGuire would differ with you - they routinely turned -38s with Zeros.





..and yet Bong and McGuire routinely turned with Zeros, and have the gun camera footage to back it up...guess what happens when you drop combat flaps in a -38 AND chop poweer on the inside engine? You suddenly get a huge rotating air brake where a propellor used to be. Of course, you run the risk of bending the main spar, which they did do a couple of times executing the "lockheed stomp", but they also shot down a bunch of Zero pilots who were as ill-informed as you are about the fork-tailed devil's turning capabilities.

80sgyrene  [Member]
12/3/2008 8:14:10 PM
Originally Posted By Sgt_Gold:
Bong was not good at gunnery and scored most of his kills at close range by exploting speed and position. There is no way what so ever that a P-38 (or any) US WWII fighter could turn with a Japanese Zero and stay in the fight.

Originally Posted By Rick-OShay:
Originally Posted By SD307:
P-38s could not turn as tight, ...


Bong and McGuire would differ with you - they routinely turned -38s with Zeros.







All depends, at higher speeds, allied fighters routinely outmanuevered Zeroes.
Let your airspeed drop below 200 and you were a dead man.

And I'm pretty sure the P-38 could out turn a Mig.
outofbattery  [Member]
12/16/2008 12:04:14 AM
I recall reading somewhere that the MiG 15's first victory was over a Nationalist P-38.I can't remember the source off the top of my head and don't know the veracity of that claim but it's plausible.

Could a P-38 manage to down a MiG? If a Sea Fury and Skyraider ( MiG 17 in Vietnam) could,I'd say so but I wouldn't want to be the man trying the odds.

Other Korean War piston engined planes would include the RN's Sea Furies,Seafires and Fireflies.