AR15.Com Archives
 german influance in U.S. warfare
fefu23  [Team Member]
3/12/2010 1:08:00 PM EST
so after reading the weapons thread, what influance in general did ww2 germany have on U.S./modern warefare(anything other than weapons)?

airborne troopies
term "assault rifle"
machinegun supprted by infantry
U.S. helmet design
psyops


Paid Advertisement
--
Fantomas  [Team Member]
3/12/2010 2:02:24 PM EST
The so called Blitzkrieg - like campaign which was used by the US in Afghanistan is one that comes to mind. I guess the phrase coined for this was “shock and awe”. These tactics where use by the German's on many occasion.

One other thing that comes to mind is the further development of the Jet Engine and also Stealth Aircraft that the Germans had already in development. Which later lead to Space exploration.

Also the so call Auftragstaktik (the idea of maximizing flexibility and initiative at the lowest tactical levels - also aka method of Leadership) was regularly extolled by the US. This was the idea of Carl von Clausewitz. His Theories and Tactics are still thought in Military Schools but also this is being used in other industries and in Marketing. It is my understanding that his Book " On War" is still being used by the US Military.

Project X - A problem-solving leadership exercise, Project X consisted of several scenarios and associated tasks. Working in small groups, one was expected to solve these scenarios while working against the clock. This was based on German methods of developing and instilling small-unit leadership, teamwork, and adaptability.

(some of this info is from the following Source - Tomgram)



fefu23  [Team Member]
3/12/2010 2:14:29 PM EST
Originally Posted By Fantomas:
The so called Blitzkrieg - like campaign which was used by the US in Afghanistan is one that comes to mind. I guess the phrase coined for this was “shock and awe”. These tactics where use by the German's on many occasion.

One other thing that comes to mind is the further development of the Jet Engine and also Stealth Aircraft that the Germans had already in development. Which later lead to Space exploration.

Also the so call Auftragstaktik (the idea of maximizing flexibility and initiative at the lowest tactical levels - also aka method of Leadership) was regularly extolled by the US. This was the idea of Carl von Clausewitz. His Theories and Tactics are still thought in Military Schools but also this is being used in other industries and in Marketing. It is my understanding that his Book " On War" is still being used by the US Military.

Project X - A problem-solving leadership exercise, Project X consisted of several scenarios and associated tasks. Working in small groups, one was expected to solve these scenarios while working against the clock. This was based on German methods of developing and instilling small-unit leadership, teamwork, and adaptability.

(some of this info is from the following Source - Tomgram)





great info, thanks



as fucked up as some of the things they did were, ww2 germany is one of the most intresting parts of history for me
Fantomas  [Team Member]
3/12/2010 3:22:26 PM EST
you are right. Sometimes I think what would Germany and the rest of the World be if Hitler would have not taken it to such an extreme. He did a lot of very good things for the Germans. He build a very advanced Highway System that to this day is still one of the best in the World and the Concept of how a Highway should look in regards to sloping, water run of, On / Off Ramps and so on are being used by other Countries today. Also other Construction Projects of all sort of Buildings, Bridges and other Infrastructure was a great way to reduce Unemployment to levels what we will never see again. It is hard to say what it would look like - this reminds me of a Movies called Fatherland with Rutger Hauer from 1994. It is in my opinion an interesting Movies and depicts what would it be like.

Plot summary

The story begins in Nazi Germany, the Third Reich in April 1964, in the week leading up to Adolf Hitler's 75th birthday. The plot follows detective Xavier March, an investigator working for the Kriminalpolizei (Kripo), as he investigates the suspicious death of a high-ranking Nazi, Josef Bühler, in the Havel, on the outskirts of Berlin. As March uncovers more details he realises that he is caught up in a political scandal involving senior Nazi party officials, who are apparently being systematically murdered under staged circumstances. In fact, as soon as the body is identified, the Gestapo claims jurisdiction and orders the Kripo to close its investigation.


the above is just a little excerpt of this Movie. Sorry this may be a little of Subject but I thought I Post this anyway.
somedude  [Member]
3/13/2010 9:26:19 AM EST
i think one of the more important techs we got from them was Night Vision, sure it was primitive, but you have to start somewhere. Now look everything from special ops - to regular line units use it. Helicopter and Aircraft as well. Has helped to completely change the way we can fight.

Also in training, it seems we have copied what the German had to do out of necessity with the original restrictions they had, in that cross training was extensively done in the event the officer or the specialists were killed, so that the mission could be completed without the loss of unit cohesion. I think our special forces have taken that to the next level, learning multiple languages for one, and being able to do everyone else's job in the unit to some degree.

the first smart weapons were developed by the Germans as well, and we have all seen how much that was covered by the news in the opening days of both gulf wars where the current gen of weapons was used.


Also on the leadership level, without Hitler's interference or his chronies, usually the objective was stated for the attack, and it was the officer in command of the attacking unit decision on how to go about achieving the objective (at least you will read this a lot for Panzer Commanders), unlike say the Russians who could not question orders without the fear of the commissar possibly killing them, or discipline in the least.

another thing, im thinking we copied from the germans during the war was putting a radio inside every tank, the russians only put the radio in the command tank and by hand signals or flags did they communicate to the other tanks, the germans would try to knock out the command tank or get behind the russian tank column and take them out one at a time, before they knew what happened. Im sure this shortcoming was fixed eventually, but it is mind boggling it was allowed to happen in the first place.

Later in the war the Allies copied the blitzkrieg or basically combined arms attack, and with the Luftwaffe being destroyed defeat seemed to be inevitable.


my thoughts are bit random, but i think this would have worked better in the weapons thread that was going already. and if im mistaken on anything, feel free to correct me.
ksmedman  [Team Member]
3/13/2010 9:36:07 AM EST
Ummm, ICBM's?
The V2 and the scientists we brought over are what made us a global threat in the 50's. That ability to project force shaped the world for decades and also defined our war making ideas.
4v50  [Team Member]
3/15/2010 4:01:56 PM EST
In the 1880s, our infantry wore a helmet based on the German pickelhaub.
BKC1869  [Team Member]
3/18/2010 10:46:23 AM EST
The Germans in WWII developed or were trying to develop numerous weapons systems that are in use today. Including:

The modern Assault Rifle (StG 44)
Machine Guns like the M60 (MG 42)
Jet Aircraft (Me 262)
Ballistic Missiles (V2 Rocket)
Cruise Missiles (V1 Buzz Bomb)

The current Kevlar Helmet does resemble the old WWII German Helmet which fit further down on the head to offer more protection.

They were also the fist to utilize a true combined arms assault with Infantry, Armor, Artillery, and Air Support with their Blitzkrieg attack.

As others have said the Autobahn was the forerunner to the US Interstate System which was started by Eisenhower after he was impressed by the Autobahn during WWII.

As evil and hideous as the Nazi's were no one can take away the fact that the Germans were ahead of their time with their tactics and weapons. Germany has always been known for producing great engineers. Just look at the automobiles they produce BMW, Mercedes Benz, etc. That same quality was used in WWII to produce their military equipment.
bigstick61  [Member]
4/9/2010 11:11:22 PM EST
The German experience, especially that of Hans Ulrich Rudel, greatly influenced the development of the A-10.
Freedom528  [Member]
4/10/2010 3:24:49 AM EST
The spitzer or pointed bullet developed for the German army prior to WWI, had great influence on the U.S. ballistic design.

Germany developed the panzerfaust (tank fist) which led to the Russian development of the RPG.

Although controversial, it has been written that the Russians who invaded Germany in WWII, confiscated prototypes and drawings of a new cartridge which the Russian military refined into the 7.62 x 39.
akodo  [Member]
4/11/2010 5:07:01 PM EST


airborne troopies - we were parachuting guys in WW2, I don't think the Germans influenced us there at all.

term "assault rifle" -yes, this can be traced back to the Germans, however, their view of the assault rifle definitely dwells more on the 'assault' angle, i.e. a SMG great for Close Combat but also okay at longer shots. We've only gone down that route slowly. After all, we went from the WW2 M1 Garand to the M-14 which didn't follow that philosophy, to the M-16 which was still designed for more precision than up close spray-and-pray, heck we even gave the M-16 a 3 round burst feature and disabled full auto. Eventually we get to the M4 which might be a bit closer to the German Ideal of an assault rifle, and then we find that in A'stan we lack range and accuracy because we have concentrated too much on having a short handy weapon good for urban warfare.

machinegun supprted by infantry - The US and the Germans were going different directions on this during WW2 and we continued on OUR path, not their path. The Germans had a spectacular medium machinegun, and their riflemen with bolt action rifles were basically there just for support. We had an inferior medium machinegun, but thanks to our basic infantryman having a semiauto rifle, we basically matched the German Army in infantry small arms firepower. And have we done much improvment to the medium machinegun? No, not really, instead we have given each basic infantryman a better and better rifle. (at least in theory better rifle, for those of you who believe the M14 was superior to the M16)



akodo  [Member]
4/11/2010 5:21:25 PM EST
Originally Posted By Fantomas:
The so called Blitzkrieg - like campaign which was used by the US in Afghanistan is one that comes to mind. I guess the phrase coined for this was “shock and awe”. These tactics where use by the German's on many occasion.

One other thing that comes to mind is the further development of the Jet Engine and also Stealth Aircraft that the Germans had already in development. Which later lead to Space exploration.

Also the so call Auftragstaktik (the idea of maximizing flexibility and initiative at the lowest tactical levels - also aka method of Leadership) was regularly extolled by the US. This was the idea of Carl von Clausewitz. His Theories and Tactics are still thought in Military Schools but also this is being used in other industries and in Marketing. It is my understanding that his Book " On War" is still being used by the US Military.

Project X - A problem-solving leadership exercise, Project X consisted of several scenarios and associated tasks. Working in small groups, one was expected to solve these scenarios while working against the clock. This was based on German methods of developing and instilling small-unit leadership, teamwork, and adaptability.

(some of this info is from the following Source - Tomgram)





I agree with half of this but disagree with half of this.

Horten Ho was the 'flying wing' aircraft so many point to being similar to the B2. Well, it turns out that a LOT of people were doing the 'flying wing' well before that.



Our own Northrop Flying Wing from 1940

The flying wing has some real advantages, Horten Ho was simply 'take the 2 newest technologies and put them in the same plane' i.e. flying wing and jet engine. He put a 'radar absorbing' coat on the plane, but it did nothing. Now, the flying wing has a smaller radar profile, but I have seen nothing to indicate that was why it was chosen. Basically that was something that was noticed afterwards. The true goal of the supposed 'german stealth plane'? Fuel efficiency, so you could fly longer distances on your bombing runs.

The Jet Aircraft did NOT lead to space travel. The V-2 Rocket did.

Yes, the german scientists were great at rocketry, they were dang good with jets as well. Their technology there influenced out aerospace industry a lot. However, while the purpose of those vehicles were military, it was the german scientists not the german military who should get credit. The german scientists influenced OUR scientists who the create product to influence our military.

No, you can't lay the jet aircraft, the rocket, and space travel at the feet of German Military.

Yes, germans had wire guided torpedoes, but we independently developed wire guided bombs.

And finally, the Germans had TROVES of weapon ideas, including one where they were going to have a big mirror in orbit and aim sunlight at a harbor to evaporate the water.

A stopped clock is correct twice a day. If you have a thousand predictions about what could be used for weapons, you'll get a few right just by chance. However a lot of our 'duplication' of WW2 german ideas is created totally independent of their work, so they deserve no credit. For instance, there has been talk about putting mirrors in orbit to work in conjunction with solar farms to provide light to them at night so they keep on generating electricity. This isn't all that different than the german "war mirror" to evaporate water by directing sunlight. But the idea sprung forth on it's own, with no german influences.

Dave_Markowitz  [Team Member]
4/16/2010 10:29:22 AM EST
Originally Posted By bigstick61:
The German experience, especially that of Hans Ulrich Rudel, greatly influenced the development of the A-10.


However, the Germans got the idea of dive bombing from us.
CAV637  [Member]
4/17/2010 4:22:02 AM EST
Back in the 1970's, when I was in the Marine Corp 'Platoon Leaders Course' we were trained on the Reaction Course. It was a dead copy of the German armys leadership training obstacle course. The Corp admitted to copying it.
Paid Advertisement
--