AR15.Com Archives
 Banned from the History Channel online discussion forum
rodomonte  [Member]
3/4/2010 6:23:29 PM
History channel is running a series called WWII in HD. They had an episode where a vet who commanded troops in the North Africa campaign (Robert Schefflel) stated one of his men executed some German POW's. He did nothing after hearing the man's parents had been killed by the Nazi's and he was Jewish. I am sure this Jewish soldier, who they named, is dead now.

I tried to start a discussion of this seeming war crime on the History channel forum, but it was reviewed by the moderators and never posted. Not only that, they removed my login and I could not even register under a new email address, meaning they use IP addresses to permanently ban unwanted posters.

My unposted post was titled, "Jewish War Criminal?" I stated that this was technically a war crime, but I could understand why it happened. It is ironic that the History channel moderators act like Nazi's themselves and suppress free speech. The History channel is owned by NBC. I did some googling and found out there were other instances of Jews executing Germans after the war, some of it, unlike this instance, quite organized.

The only surprising thing about this whole situation is that it was brought up in a program shown on the History channel, yet they suppressed any discussion of it.
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45FMJoe  [Team Member]
3/4/2010 6:30:34 PM
Sometimes you need to just shut your mouth, turn your cheek and let nature run its course, exactly what you are saying Scheffiel did. I still haven't watched more than the first episode of my WW II in HD Blu-ray.
AlvinYork  [Team Member]
3/4/2010 6:34:48 PM
One of my mother's uncles was in the Third Army. He used to tell a story of a time that he and couple others were ordered to transport some German prisoners to a rear area. The sergeant told him to take the prisoners to a supply depot/headquarters that was a good 15 to 20 miles away. He also made a point to tell them to get back to his unit in 15 minutes, that they were moving out in half an hour. They were back in 10 minutes, sans prisoners.
Bushmaster1984  [Team Member]
3/4/2010 6:35:32 PM
nbc owns history? thats why that channel sucks ass now
stevem1a  [Member]
3/5/2010 12:09:58 AM
Originally Posted By AlvinYork:
One of my mother's uncles was in the Third Army. He used to tell a story of a time that he and couple others were ordered to transport some German prisoners to a rear area. The sergeant told him to take the prisoners to a supply depot/headquarters that was a good 15 to 20 miles away. He also made a point to tell them to get back to his unit in 15 minutes, that they were moving out in half an hour. They were back in 10 minutes, sans prisoners.



My father's older brother told me much the same story, only it involved Japanese prisoners on Okinawa.

The quote as I remember it was "Take these Nips to the lockup on the other side of the island and be back in 5 minutes".

Uncle said he shot them. I believed him.


Steve

AlvinYork  [Team Member]
3/5/2010 7:15:36 PM
Originally Posted By stevem1a:
Originally Posted By AlvinYork:
One of my mother's uncles was in the Third Army. He used to tell a story of a time that he and couple others were ordered to transport some German prisoners to a rear area. The sergeant told him to take the prisoners to a supply depot/headquarters that was a good 15 to 20 miles away. He also made a point to tell them to get back to his unit in 15 minutes, that they were moving out in half an hour. They were back in 10 minutes, sans prisoners.



My father's older brother told me much the same story, only it involved Japanese prisoners on Okinawa.

The quote as I remember it was "Take these Nips to the lockup on the other side of the island and be back in 5 minutes".

Uncle said he shot them. I believed him.


Steve



I was told by a very good friend who was also on Okinawa that there was a lot that went on there that wasn't quite up to 1929 Geneva Conventions standards. One was that after the battle on Iwo Jima, the Marines had gotten tired of dealing with Jap soldiers popping up out of spider holes, and interlocking caves. Since the island was going to be used as basically one big landing strip after the battle, he claims that they just backed up truck after truck of aviation fuel when they found a cave. That and couple flares he claims made quite a fire down below. Problem was that quite a few of the civilian Okinawans were down there too.
Tboy  [Team Member]
3/7/2010 12:31:00 AM
Saw a piece on History Channel discussing the occupation of Germany. To discourage the Nazi's from fighting a guerrilla war, they would shoot 10 German prisoners each time a soldier was killed. Needless to say, not much resistance once the Germans learned. Also remember seeing a British officer talking about letting their men shoot prison guards when they entered various camps - apparently the enlisted had no clue about the Germans' methods.
Porcine83  [Member]
3/11/2010 5:07:39 PM
Originally Posted By Bushmaster1984:
nbc owns history? thats why that channel sucks ass now


No doubt. Axe Men, Pawn Stars, World after people, all the crap about UFO's, Nostradamus & monsters? Sheesh, I'm not saying it has to be non-stop WW2 documentaries but help a brother out.

Ok, I admit I do like Pawn Stars in small doses, but the rest is not History and not entertaining.
Porcine83  [Member]
3/11/2010 5:17:29 PM
Originally Posted By stevem1a:
Originally Posted By AlvinYork:
One of my mother's uncles was in the Third Army. He used to tell a story of a time that he and couple others were ordered to transport some German prisoners to a rear area. The sergeant told him to take the prisoners to a supply depot/headquarters that was a good 15 to 20 miles away. He also made a point to tell them to get back to his unit in 15 minutes, that they were moving out in half an hour. They were back in 10 minutes, sans prisoners.



My father's older brother told me much the same story, only it involved Japanese prisoners on Okinawa.

The quote as I remember it was "Take these Nips to the lockup on the other side of the island and be back in 5 minutes".

Uncle said he shot them. I believed him.


Steve



Ideally 'we' wouldn't shoot prisoners.....but I can't imagine a lot in war is ideal. I have never been in combat, but know enough that I have a hard time questioning those that have seen their friends & comrades killed or wounded. The Allies fire-bombed German & Japanese cities- how was that not a War-crime? I am NOT arguing against it, I am saying that while burning out entire civilian cities is not the moral equivalent of Auschwitz it's hardly standard warfare against combatants and I'm okay with that. It may be wrong but I am willing to trade an enormous number of enemy lives (civilian or otherwise) for one GI.
stevem1a  [Member]
3/11/2010 10:08:11 PM
Originally Posted By Porcine83:
Originally Posted By stevem1a:
Originally Posted By AlvinYork:
One of my mother's uncles was in the Third Army. He used to tell a story of a time that he and couple others were ordered to transport some German prisoners to a rear area. The sergeant told him to take the prisoners to a supply depot/headquarters that was a good 15 to 20 miles away. He also made a point to tell them to get back to his unit in 15 minutes, that they were moving out in half an hour. They were back in 10 minutes, sans prisoners.



My father's older brother told me much the same story, only it involved Japanese prisoners on Okinawa.

The quote as I remember it was "Take these Nips to the lockup on the other side of the island and be back in 5 minutes".

Uncle said he shot them. I believed him.


Steve



Ideally 'we' wouldn't shoot prisoners.....but I can't imagine a lot in war is ideal. I have never been in combat, but know enough that I have a hard time questioning those that have seen their friends & comrades killed or wounded. The Allies fire-bombed German & Japanese cities- how was that not a War-crime? I am NOT arguing against it, I am saying that while burning out entire civilian cities is not the moral equivalent of Auschwitz it's hardly standard warfare against combatants and I'm okay with that. It may be wrong but I am willing to trade an enormous number of enemy lives (civilian or otherwise) for one GI.



The real reason fire bombing cities was not considered a war crime in 1945 is because the side that did the most fire bombing of cities was the side that won the war.

Also, we upgraded at the end of the war from 1000 plane raids with fire bombs to atomic bombing. If fire bombing was a war crime, then nuking a city is also a war crime. This would have prevented USA from carrying out its planned post war strategy.


Steve

rob78  [Team Member]
3/11/2010 10:25:17 PM
That happened. I'd hazard a guess that most deserved what they got.

My grandfather was one of the first US troops through the gates of Buchenwald.

He was an officer and at the time I think he was a sargent.


He said a few of the German prison guards were rounded up and "given" to the prisoners.


We've got quite a few original photos he took and I've been meaning to scan them and post them here. Copies were provided to the Smithsonian where they can be seen.

Unfortunately he didn't talk much about WWII. We discovered most things after he passed away.
Defensor_Fortis  [Member]
3/12/2010 9:52:55 AM
Bill Guarnere of BOB fame, in the book he and Babe Heffron wrote.... straight up admits to shooting a couple SS guys after having them surrender and drop their weapons.


Do I blame him? No. I wasn't there.
JAD  [Member]
3/12/2010 11:35:02 AM
Originally Posted By stevem1a:
Originally Posted By Porcine83:
Originally Posted By stevem1a:
Originally Posted By AlvinYork:
One of my mother's uncles was in the Third Army. He used to tell a story of a time that he and couple others were ordered to transport some German prisoners to a rear area. The sergeant told him to take the prisoners to a supply depot/headquarters that was a good 15 to 20 miles away. He also made a point to tell them to get back to his unit in 15 minutes, that they were moving out in half an hour. They were back in 10 minutes, sans prisoners.



My father's older brother told me much the same story, only it involved Japanese prisoners on Okinawa.

The quote as I remember it was "Take these Nips to the lockup on the other side of the island and be back in 5 minutes".

Uncle said he shot them. I believed him.


Steve



Ideally 'we' wouldn't shoot prisoners.....but I can't imagine a lot in war is ideal. I have never been in combat, but know enough that I have a hard time questioning those that have seen their friends & comrades killed or wounded. The Allies fire-bombed German & Japanese cities- how was that not a War-crime? I am NOT arguing against it, I am saying that while burning out entire civilian cities is not the moral equivalent of Auschwitz it's hardly standard warfare against combatants and I'm okay with that. It may be wrong but I am willing to trade an enormous number of enemy lives (civilian or otherwise) for one GI.



The real reason fire bombing cities was not considered a war crime in 1945 is because the side that did the most fire bombing of cities was the side that won the war.

Also, we upgraded at the end of the war from 1000 plane raids with fire bombs to atomic bombing. If fire bombing was a war crime, then nuking a city is also a war crime. This would have prevented USA from carrying out its planned post war strategy.


Steve



There is some decent justification for the fire bombing (applying contemperary standards), especially in Tokyo. Here is a relevant exam-essay excerpt that I wrote on the topic:

3 and 9- Bombing German Cities and Fire Bombing Tokyo
In an effort to break the spirit of the German people, the Allied forces decided to bomb German Cities- not only targeting the war effort, but entire neighborhoods. The British Carried out bombing operations by night and the Americans by day. While as many as 40,000 civilian casualties resulted every week, the factories reopened and the enemy resolve was stronger than ever.
In order to put pressure on the Japanese War Effort, the US Government decided to firebomb Tokyo and other major Japanese cities. These were cities built mostly of wood and paper. Hundreds of thousands of civilians were killed and millions were displaced from their homes. The Air Forces saw justification because all Japanese were considered members of the Civil Defense Forces and thus legal targets. Additional information suggests that much Japanese war production was done at home and the raids had a significant impact on Japanese Supply Lines.
My gut reaction is that the bombing raid in Japan was legal because it was targeted at military targets- both in terms of Japanese domestic definition and through their behavior. The raids in Germany were illegal because they not only inflicted significant civilian casualties but were intended to strike more than just military targets.
The applicable law for this situation is the Definition of Lawful Targets/ Military Objectives found in Section 52 of Protocol I. While the US is still not a party to Protocol I, due to some specific clauses, it is a treaty which we generally respect.
Protocol I identifies a military objective as a target which helps the war fighting/sustaining ability based upon its nature, location, purpose, or use. While the targets in Germany were in proximity to factories that were supporting the war effort, the command recognized that they were targeting more than the war effort. The intention was to target civilians, who as a rule can not be targeted. The bombing raids in Germany were in violation.
Disregarding the fact that the Japanese civilians were duly members of some sort of reserve military component, they were still very much part of the war effort (via home production) as was emphasized by the dramatic drop in military production after the operation. While horrific, the bombing campaign against Japan was not only effective but lawful.
Thus, it would be inappropriate to prosecute those involved with planning and executing the campaign against Japan. On a practical light, I would also recommend against prosecuting those who planned and executed the bombing raids on Germany. While their actions were illegal, it is understandable that they would have wanted to ceased the German war effort (which had systematically taken over most of continental Europe) and hit military civilian targets in England with woefully inaccurate ordnance. While not really applicable because of the grave disproportionality in force, this is comparable to the leveling the board doctrine that was applied to certain elements of illegal naval warfare. The situation was, in my opinion, grave enough to warrant any means necessary to protect the last bastion of “freedom” in Europe from (eventually) falling. The fact that the bombing campaign in Germany was a tactical failure is irrelevant.

(YES, I am aware that I was applying encumbrances that were created after WWII. That was the nature of the question–– to apply contemperary concepts of INTL law to specific things that happened during WWII.)
delacrue  [Team Member]
3/13/2010 12:17:19 PM
IIRC, soldiers executing Japanese prisoners got so bad that the upper brass started offering shore leave to anyone that caught them alive for interrogation. Not that I can't understand why they did that, but killing surrendered prisoners is just wrong!
captainpooby  [Team Member]
3/13/2010 12:26:37 PM
War is a nasty business. People should not judge it from the comforts of their living rooms.
AlvinYork  [Team Member]
3/13/2010 1:32:46 PM
Originally Posted By captainpooby:
War is a nasty business. People should not judge it from the comforts of their living rooms.


Just as only a fool judges historical events in hindsight.
NoMoAMMO  [Team Member]
3/13/2010 1:39:22 PM
This is all BS, arfcom told me only evil German Nazi SS men were capable of such things!!!
Theoderich  [Member]
3/13/2010 2:27:13 PM
Originally Posted By NoMoAMMO:
This is all BS, arfcom told me only evil German Nazi SS men were capable of such things!!!


That's an interesting thing about WWII discussions:
There's still a metric fuck-ton of emotional energy left in the topics. Bringing up anything on this page is bound to get you flamed to hell and back.
I've even been accused of being an 88 (interesting, as I'm not exactly the Ayran ideal) for calling attention to Allied treatment (Mainly British, French, and especially Soviet) of German civilians.

I guess if I really wanted to get verbally gang-raped, I'd speak my honest opinion about the Japanese occupation of China/ German occupation of the USSR.
akodo  [Member]
4/8/2010 11:55:50 PM
You could argue that the Germans, having broken the rules of war when they declared war on a subpopulation were therefor not protected by the laws of war (just like a german saboteur caught out of uniform would not be covered by the rules of war as he had stepped outside of them when he removed his uniform)

But really, I don't think ANY war is free of breaking the rules of war.

However, I think war-crimes involves the intentional and systematic large scale breaking of the rules of war.

Just remember, if a marine returns for R & R wearing jeans, sneakers, and a Tshirt, but just then some terrorists who somehow snuck close by attack en-mass, our out-of-uniform marine may well grab up an M-16 and jump into the fray, technically being a war criminal. Of course, this one-off mistake gets corrected later and isn't by itself a warcrime, while purposely getting a bunch of marines to attack while dressed up in civvies would be.
akodo  [Member]
4/9/2010 12:05:50 AM
Originally Posted By stevem1a:
Originally Posted By Porcine83:
Originally Posted By stevem1a:
Originally Posted By AlvinYork:
One of my mother's uncles was in the Third Army. He used to tell a story of a time that he and couple others were ordered to transport some German prisoners to a rear area. The sergeant told him to take the prisoners to a supply depot/headquarters that was a good 15 to 20 miles away. He also made a point to tell them to get back to his unit in 15 minutes, that they were moving out in half an hour. They were back in 10 minutes, sans prisoners.



My father's older brother told me much the same story, only it involved Japanese prisoners on Okinawa.

The quote as I remember it was "Take these Nips to the lockup on the other side of the island and be back in 5 minutes".

Uncle said he shot them. I believed him.


Steve



Ideally 'we' wouldn't shoot prisoners.....but I can't imagine a lot in war is ideal. I have never been in combat, but know enough that I have a hard time questioning those that have seen their friends & comrades killed or wounded. The Allies fire-bombed German & Japanese cities- how was that not a War-crime? I am NOT arguing against it, I am saying that while burning out entire civilian cities is not the moral equivalent of Auschwitz it's hardly standard warfare against combatants and I'm okay with that. It may be wrong but I am willing to trade an enormous number of enemy lives (civilian or otherwise) for one GI.



The real reason fire bombing cities was not considered a war crime in 1945 is because the side that did the most fire bombing of cities was the side that won the war.

Also, we upgraded at the end of the war from 1000 plane raids with fire bombs to atomic bombing. If fire bombing was a war crime, then nuking a city is also a war crime. This would have prevented USA from carrying out its planned post war strategy.


Steve




I'd argue that at the time cities, centers of industry, were considered part of the war machine of the enemy. It's basically one or two steps up from the civilians who die when the tank factory gets bombed. It's just that tjere weren't really the weapons to consistently and reliably target specific factories. So you'd try and bomb the area, and if that failed, bomb the city in general.

It was common practice. It just had a terribly high 'collateral damage' issue. But think about it, I don't hear the German bombing of London described as a warcrime....and it was pretty common to bring up your artillery and shell a city, that doesn't get described as a warcrime.

It's because on a strategic level, a capitol city or industrial city IS a valid military target.

In the same way I'd say the Russians (or North Koreans or whoever) who launch a nuke and blow the entirety of Washington D.C. off the map would be hitting a valid military target...just one with huge collateral damage.
EvanWilliams  [Team Member]
5/3/2010 11:11:28 PM
War is war.
There is no doubt that crimes were committed. However, it is without doubt that the Germans, Japs and USSR were the biggest offenders by far.

If you ever read Chuck Yeager's bio he tells about strafing civilians in Germany (under orders).

AngryEwok  [Member]
5/11/2010 9:02:03 PM
No quarter for the Japs or Nazis.
aomagrat  [Team Member]
5/30/2010 8:35:54 PM
These days we court marshal soldiers who turn a prisoner with a fat lip. No wonder we are losing the war on terror.
gaweidert  [Team Member]
6/1/2010 7:23:58 AM
Originally Posted By delacrue:
IIRC, soldiers executing Japanese prisoners got so bad that the upper brass started offering shore leave to anyone that caught them alive for interrogation. Not that I can't understand why they did that, but killing surrendered prisoners is just wrong!


Except that surrendering Japanese prisoners often came booby trapped. Or one would pretend to surrender so that Americans who came forward to accept the surrender were then shot by other Japanese soldiers in hiding. After losing a few friends to such tactics, you just don't take any more chances. BTW Japan never signed the Geneva Convention.
CWatson  [Member]
6/8/2010 1:15:36 AM
Originally Posted By gaweidert:
Originally Posted By delacrue:
IIRC, soldiers executing Japanese prisoners got so bad that the upper brass started offering shore leave to anyone that caught them alive for interrogation. Not that I can't understand why they did that, but killing surrendered prisoners is just wrong!


Except that surrendering Japanese prisoners often came booby trapped. Or one would pretend to surrender so that Americans who came forward to accept the surrender were then shot by other Japanese soldiers in hiding. After losing a few friends to such tactics, you just don't take any more chances. BTW Japan never signed the Geneva Convention.


My fourth grade teacher was a Marine in the Pacific. On Fridays he would tell a different war story to the class. One Friday he told us after landing in the Philippines his platoon came across a group of at least a dozen young girls beheaded in a ditch. He said they were young 6-10 yrs old and among the bodies they found one severely wounded girl. One of the locals told the Marines the girls had been "comfort girls" for the Japs who had left the village only an hour before. The Marines followed the group of jap soldiers through the jungle and caught them around dusk filling their canteens from a river. He said they fight was quick and they killed the ones who threw their arms up too. He said neither he or any of his men would take a japanese soldier prisoner for the rest of the war.

He told use this story in the early 80s and he still hated the Japanese with a passion even then. He hated them so much when a Japanese student was put in his class he had the kid transfered to another class.

CW
AlvinYork  [Team Member]
6/8/2010 11:08:14 AM
Originally Posted By aomagrat:
These days we court marshal soldiers who turn a prisoner with a fat lip. No wonder we are losing the war on terror.


No wonder we are losing our country to the fellow travellers.
Theoderich  [Member]
6/8/2010 9:02:59 PM
Originally Posted By gaweidert:
Originally Posted By delacrue:

Except that surrendering Japanese prisoners often came booby trapped. Or one would pretend to surrender so that Americans who came forward to accept the surrender were then shot by other Japanese soldiers in hiding. After losing a few friends to such tactics, you just don't take any more chances. BTW Japan never signed the Geneva Convention.


I don't think we're disputing the practical application of said actions in those circumstances, but more moral applications of them. I will give you, that danger was always present.
But will anyone on here actually tell me with a straight face that this or this was justified?
Maybe my opinion doesn't mean that much, as I haven't served (I'm actually disqualified from doing so) but killing surrendering soldiers just wouldn't sit well with me.


No quarter for the Japs or Nazis.




I'm curious as to your opinion about how we should have dealt with the defeated Axis powers.
Tell me: Do you consider being enslaved by Communist governments for 40 years sufficient punishment for the people of Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, and the eastern 1/4 of Germany?
BTW: Enlisted man in the Wehrmacht /=/ member of the NSDAP
URL  [Team Member]
6/8/2010 9:21:57 PM
Originally Posted By Theoderich:
Originally Posted By gaweidert:
Originally Posted By delacrue:

Except that surrendering Japanese prisoners often came booby trapped. Or one would pretend to surrender so that Americans who came forward to accept the surrender were then shot by other Japanese soldiers in hiding. After losing a few friends to such tactics, you just don't take any more chances. BTW Japan never signed the Geneva Convention.


I don't think we're disputing the practical application of said actions in those circumstances, but more moral applications of them. I will give you, that danger was always present.
But will anyone on here actually tell me with a straight face that this or this was justified?
Maybe my opinion doesn't mean that much, as I haven't served (I'm actually disqualified from doing so) but killing surrendering soldiers just wouldn't sit well with me.


No quarter for the Japs or Nazis.




I'm curious as to your opinion about how we should have dealt with the defeated Axis powers.
Tell me: Do you consider being enslaved by Communist governments for 40 years sufficient punishment for the people of Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, and the eastern 1/4 of Germany?
BTW: Enlisted man in the Wehrmacht /=/ member of the NSDAP


We won. Everything else is unimportant.
beckman  [Member]
6/16/2010 12:35:33 PM
One of the reasons why nations fight wars is because the winner gets the make the rules. "War crimes are only committed by the loser" –– that's one of the rules made by the winners. It pays to be a winner.

Is that fair? No. Is it fair for an 18yo boy to die in a war that nobody will care about in 100 years? Is it fair to kill a civilian working in an armament factory? What about a civilian who runs a farm that feeds the soldiers and the workers at the armament factory?

Sherman put it best, "War is hell." The best thing is to avoid one, if reasonably possible. If war is required, it's usually best to win, although sometimes a country can win the war and lose the peace, but it's unwise to count on that.

As far as how we're different NOW than we were in WW2 because we get upset when our sodier hits a captured terrorist, things haven't really changed that much. In WW2, Gen. Patton was relieved of command for 10 months due to his famous slapping incident. In fact, it nearly ended his career. The American public was outraged that a general would slap a soldier.
CTbuilder1  [Team Member]
6/16/2010 12:40:26 PM
Some people just need killing. Make peace with that and forget the technicalities of the rest.
lcplblazer  [Member]
6/17/2010 2:57:41 AM
Originally Posted By Porcine83:
Originally Posted By Bushmaster1984:
nbc owns history? thats why that channel sucks ass now


No doubt. Axe Men, Pawn Stars, World after people, all the crap about UFO's, Nostradamus & monsters? Sheesh, I'm not saying it has to be non-stop WW2 documentaries but help a brother out.

Ok, I admit I do like Pawn Stars in small doses, but the rest is not History and not entertaining.


My thoughts exaclty.
sbdfirearms  [Team Member]
8/26/2010 12:53:44 AM
Originally Posted By AlvinYork:
Originally Posted By stevem1a:
Originally Posted By AlvinYork:
One of my mother's uncles was in the Third Army. He used to tell a story of a time that he and couple others were ordered to transport some German prisoners to a rear area. The sergeant told him to take the prisoners to a supply depot/headquarters that was a good 15 to 20 miles away. He also made a point to tell them to get back to his unit in 15 minutes, that they were moving out in half an hour. They were back in 10 minutes, sans prisoners.



My father's older brother told me much the same story, only it involved Japanese prisoners on Okinawa.

The quote as I remember it was "Take these Nips to the lockup on the other side of the island and be back in 5 minutes".

Uncle said he shot them. I believed him.


Steve



I was told by a very good friend who was also on Okinawa that there was a lot that went on there that wasn't quite up to 1929 Geneva Conventions standards. One was that after the battle on Iwo Jima, the Marines had gotten tired of dealing with Jap soldiers popping up out of spider holes, and interlocking caves. Since the island was going to be used as basically one big landing strip after the battle, he claims that they just backed up truck after truck of aviation fuel when they found a cave. That and couple flares he claims made quite a fire down below. Problem was that quite a few of the civilian Okinawans were down there too.


The Japs evac'd the civilains off of the Island during the buildup. (OR so it was thought)

WinstonSmith  [Team Member]
9/1/2010 5:30:23 PM
That's ok. Modern Marvels thinks Chlorine and mustard gas are the same thing.

It's a sham of a television station and can go fuck itself.
AlvinYork  [Team Member]
9/1/2010 9:44:20 PM
Originally Posted By sbdfirearms:
Originally Posted By AlvinYork:
Originally Posted By stevem1a:
Originally Posted By AlvinYork:
One of my mother's uncles was in the Third Army. He used to tell a story of a time that he and couple others were ordered to transport some German prisoners to a rear area. The sergeant told him to take the prisoners to a supply depot/headquarters that was a good 15 to 20 miles away. He also made a point to tell them to get back to his unit in 15 minutes, that they were moving out in half an hour. They were back in 10 minutes, sans prisoners.



My father's older brother told me much the same story, only it involved Japanese prisoners on Okinawa.

The quote as I remember it was "Take these Nips to the lockup on the other side of the island and be back in 5 minutes".

Uncle said he shot them. I believed him.


Steve



I was told by a very good friend who was also on Okinawa that there was a lot that went on there that wasn't quite up to 1929 Geneva Conventions standards. One was that after the battle on Iwo Jima, the Marines had gotten tired of dealing with Jap soldiers popping up out of spider holes, and interlocking caves. Since the island was going to be used as basically one big landing strip after the battle, he claims that they just backed up truck after truck of aviation fuel when they found a cave. That and couple flares he claims made quite a fire down below. Problem was that quite a few of the civilian Okinawans were down there too.


The Japs evac'd the civilains off of the Island during the buildup. (OR so it was thought)



yeah, that is why the Marines often summarily executed men who threw their whole families into the sea so that they couldn't be raped and murdered.
Smead  [Member]
9/6/2010 7:49:57 AM
Plenty of armchairs here...breaking discipline and shooting prisoners is reprehensible...for every justification offered based on circumstances, I can offer instances of those that suffered far worse and acted far better.

If one becomes as despicable as our usual adverasies...where is the moral justification for contesting them??

.
effinNewGuy  [Member]
9/6/2010 8:24:00 AM

"It is well that war is so terrible––we should grow too fond of it"

TUMOR  [Team Member]
10/2/2010 10:31:35 AM
Originally Posted By rodomonte:
.....they removed my login
It is ironic that the History channel moderators act like Nazi's themselves and suppress free speech.


Say something unpopular here............and the same thing will happen to you here.

4bangin  [Team Member]
10/2/2010 10:42:07 AM
last time i checked all is fair in love and war.
Lootie23  [Team Member]
10/2/2010 11:04:30 AM
We firebombed and dropped atomic warheads knowingly and intentionally on children. People will excoriate Timothy McVeigh for doing the same thing. Whatever. War is hell. My only regret is that we do not have the balls to do so in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Iran. Make war against us, we will annihilate you and your offspring.

Some people ONLY understand brute force and violence. This "hearts and minds" shit is a losing proposition. Vaporize the mind, and the heart will follow.
medicmandan  [Moderator]
10/2/2010 10:39:00 PM

Originally Posted By TUMOR:
Originally Posted By rodomonte:
.....they removed my login
It is ironic that the History channel moderators act like Nazi's themselves and suppress free speech.


Say something unpopular here............and the same thing will happen to you here.


Unpopular shouldn't be a problem. Violating the established rules is.
tiger222  [Member]
11/22/2010 1:23:09 AM
You know guys the truncation of Japanese is an offensive term? Why do some of you continue to use it? Why do others continue to allow others to use it?
The war is over 60 years ended, maybe this racism is inherant or somehow acceptable in the gun culture? Please tell me.

My family suffered terribly during the war, and my wifes too.

I am half Japanese, my mother had to eat insects and frogs during the firebombings and sleep in a ditch as a child.
When a B29 flew over our apartment in 1982 for an air show at the local airport, it shook her
to her core she recognized the sound of the engines. She and I were both spat on by some guys in a car while sitting at a bus bench
as they yelled "fucking j*ps!" - nice. I had been in the US for a month, in 1979 had been told this
was the greatest country in the world, and found it was popullated by people like this....

My wife is full german. Her grandmother was raped by the Soviet Army in 1945. Her grandfather
was killed by the russians while trying to escape from Prussia, the red cross ship he was in, loaded with
civillians and unarmed soldiers was sunk in the port by the soviets. Her mother and father endured allied bombings
as children and it still affects them today.

Nothing good comes from war, except the profits to the arms makers
who will support the rewriting of history to make organized murder seem
somehow acceptable..... and pay the politicians to make more wars under false pretense
and then get you guys to go out there and kill for money (profits to the corporations) under
the guise of patriotism.

As far as taking the actions of a "few" and making it the responsibility of an entire nation is nothing
short but the conclusion of a narrow mind, compounded by the emotional compression of war.
Hatred is a cover for their fears, and the unwillingness to handle the root cause.

Ironnewt  [Member]
12/2/2010 3:10:53 PM
As to what happen in wartime, you will find very few vets who 'fondly recall' all the things that happened. Maybe some of the things that happened while away from the front, but as to 'combat' situations, I don't think so. Some may tell us what happened and we are the richer for it as I believe "those who fail to remember history are doomed to repeat it". My father was a enlisted Marine in WW II and Korea and never spoke about it.
Plattekill  [Member]
12/9/2010 1:30:28 PM
Originally Posted By CWatson:
Originally Posted By gaweidert:
Originally Posted By delacrue:
IIRC, soldiers executing Japanese prisoners got so bad that the upper brass started offering shore leave to anyone that caught them alive for interrogation. Not that I can't understand why they did that, but killing surrendered prisoners is just wrong!


Except that surrendering Japanese prisoners often came booby trapped. Or one would pretend to surrender so that Americans who came forward to accept the surrender were then shot by other Japanese soldiers in hiding. After losing a few friends to such tactics, you just don't take any more chances. BTW Japan never signed the Geneva Convention.


My fourth grade teacher was a Marine in the Pacific. On Fridays he would tell a different war story to the class. One Friday he told us after landing in the Philippines his platoon came across a group of at least a dozen young girls beheaded in a ditch. He said they were young 6-10 yrs old and among the bodies they found one severely wounded girl. One of the locals told the Marines the girls had been "comfort girls" for the Japs who had left the village only an hour before. The Marines followed the group of jap soldiers through the jungle and caught them around dusk filling their canteens from a river. He said they fight was quick and they killed the ones who threw their arms up too. He said neither he or any of his men would take a japanese soldier prisoner for the rest of the war.

He told use this story in the early 80s and he still hated the Japanese with a passion even then. He hated them so much when a Japanese student was put in his class he had the kid transfered to another class.

CW


Fine with me.
Plattekill  [Member]
12/9/2010 1:34:37 PM
Originally Posted By tiger222:
You know guys the truncation of Japanese is an offensive term? Why do some of you continue to use it? Why do others continue to allow others to use it?
The war is over 60 years ended, maybe this racism is inherant or somehow acceptable in the gun culture? Please tell me.

My family suffered terribly during the war, and my wifes too.

I am half Japanese, my mother had to eat insects and frogs during the firebombings and sleep in a ditch as a child.
When a B29 flew over our apartment in 1982 for an air show at the local airport, it shook her
to her core she recognized the sound of the engines. She and I were both spat on by some guys in a car while sitting at a bus bench
as they yelled "fucking j*ps!" - nice. I had been in the US for a month, in 1979 had been told this
was the greatest country in the world, and found it was popullated by people like this....

My wife is full german. Her grandmother was raped by the Soviet Army in 1945. Her grandfather
was killed by the russians while trying to escape from Prussia, the red cross ship he was in, loaded with
civillians and unarmed soldiers was sunk in the port by the soviets. Her mother and father endured allied bombings
as children and it still affects them today.

Nothing good comes from war, except the profits to the arms makers
who will support the rewriting of history to make organized murder seem
somehow acceptable..... and pay the politicians to make more wars under false pretense
and then get you guys to go out there and kill for money (profits to the corporations) under
the guise of patriotism.

As far as taking the actions of a "few" and making it the responsibility of an entire nation is nothing
short but the conclusion of a narrow mind, compounded by the emotional compression of war.
Hatred is a cover for their fears, and the unwillingness to handle the root cause.



Look up "Rape of Nanking". Or Bataan Death March. They don't teach some things in Japanese schools- or in German ones.

My mother's family was German. So Fucking What.
AlvinYork  [Team Member]
12/10/2010 7:45:58 PM
Originally Posted By Plattekill:
Originally Posted By tiger222:
You know guys the truncation of Japanese is an offensive term? Why do some of you continue to use it? Why do others continue to allow others to use it?
The war is over 60 years ended, maybe this racism is inherant or somehow acceptable in the gun culture? Please tell me.

My family suffered terribly during the war, and my wifes too.

I am half Japanese, my mother had to eat insects and frogs during the firebombings and sleep in a ditch as a child.
When a B29 flew over our apartment in 1982 for an air show at the local airport, it shook her
to her core she recognized the sound of the engines. She and I were both spat on by some guys in a car while sitting at a bus bench
as they yelled "fucking j*ps!" - nice. I had been in the US for a month, in 1979 had been told this
was the greatest country in the world, and found it was popullated by people like this....

My wife is full german. Her grandmother was raped by the Soviet Army in 1945. Her grandfather
was killed by the russians while trying to escape from Prussia, the red cross ship he was in, loaded with
civillians and unarmed soldiers was sunk in the port by the soviets. Her mother and father endured allied bombings
as children and it still affects them today.

Nothing good comes from war, except the profits to the arms makers
who will support the rewriting of history to make organized murder seem
somehow acceptable..... and pay the politicians to make more wars under false pretense
and then get you guys to go out there and kill for money (profits to the corporations) under
the guise of patriotism.

As far as taking the actions of a "few" and making it the responsibility of an entire nation is nothing
short but the conclusion of a narrow mind, compounded by the emotional compression of war.
Hatred is a cover for their fears, and the unwillingness to handle the root cause.



Look up "Rape of Nanking". Or Bataan Death March. They don't teach some things in Japanese schools- or in German ones.

My mother's family was German. So Fucking What.


Hell my dads father was German born in Liepzig, and my dad always referred to Germans as those damned Krauts.
Edvvard  [Member]
12/11/2010 2:07:48 AM
Just remember who runs things and how much they can and will fuck you. Of course people are blind to it and deny the truth.
BlueDrewT  [Member]
12/11/2010 11:28:53 AM
I can't imagine too many Japanese soldiers surrendering. Most fought to the death.
BD1a  [Team Member]
12/12/2010 9:02:27 AM
Originally Posted By NoMoAMMO:
This is all BS, arfcom told me only evil German Nazi SS men were capable of such things!!!


+1

I applaud your efforts Theoderich.

This might be the most civil WW2 discusion yet. I give it one more page before it self-destructs.
mcnizzle  [Team Member]
12/19/2010 11:20:20 AM
Originally Posted By Plattekill:
Originally Posted By CWatson:
Originally Posted By gaweidert:
Originally Posted By delacrue:
IIRC, soldiers executing Japanese prisoners got so bad that the upper brass started offering shore leave to anyone that caught them alive for interrogation. Not that I can't understand why they did that, but killing surrendered prisoners is just wrong!


Except that surrendering Japanese prisoners often came booby trapped. Or one would pretend to surrender so that Americans who came forward to accept the surrender were then shot by other Japanese soldiers in hiding. After losing a few friends to such tactics, you just don't take any more chances. BTW Japan never signed the Geneva Convention.


My fourth grade teacher was a Marine in the Pacific. On Fridays he would tell a different war story to the class. One Friday he told us after landing in the Philippines his platoon came across a group of at least a dozen young girls beheaded in a ditch. He said they were young 6-10 yrs old and among the bodies they found one severely wounded girl. One of the locals told the Marines the girls had been "comfort girls" for the Japs who had left the village only an hour before. The Marines followed the group of jap soldiers through the jungle and caught them around dusk filling their canteens from a river. He said they fight was quick and they killed the ones who threw their arms up too. He said neither he or any of his men would take a japanese soldier prisoner for the rest of the war.

He told use this story in the early 80s and he still hated the Japanese with a passion even then. He hated them so much when a Japanese student was put in his class he had the kid transfered to another class.
CW


Fine with me.


That's the only part I disagree with. Children should not be subject to that kind of behavior. That is blatantly racist.
KC-10Boom  [Team Member]
12/21/2010 5:56:32 PM

Originally Posted By mcnizzle:
Originally Posted By Plattekill:
Originally Posted By CWatson:
Originally Posted By gaweidert:
Originally Posted By delacrue:
IIRC, soldiers executing Japanese prisoners got so bad that the upper brass started offering shore leave to anyone that caught them alive for interrogation. Not that I can't understand why they did that, but killing surrendered prisoners is just wrong!


Except that surrendering Japanese prisoners often came booby trapped. Or one would pretend to surrender so that Americans who came forward to accept the surrender were then shot by other Japanese soldiers in hiding. After losing a few friends to such tactics, you just don't take any more chances. BTW Japan never signed the Geneva Convention.


My fourth grade teacher was a Marine in the Pacific. On Fridays he would tell a different war story to the class. One Friday he told us after landing in the Philippines his platoon came across a group of at least a dozen young girls beheaded in a ditch. He said they were young 6-10 yrs old and among the bodies they found one severely wounded girl. One of the locals told the Marines the girls had been "comfort girls" for the Japs who had left the village only an hour before. The Marines followed the group of jap soldiers through the jungle and caught them around dusk filling their canteens from a river. He said they fight was quick and they killed the ones who threw their arms up too. He said neither he or any of his men would take a japanese soldier prisoner for the rest of the war.

He told use this story in the early 80s and he still hated the Japanese with a passion even then. He hated them so much when a Japanese student was put in his class he had the kid transfered to another class.
CW


Fine with me.


That's the only part I disagree with. Children should not be subject to that kind of behavior. That is blatantly racist.
Indeed. That kid had nothing whatsoever to do with anything the Japanese did during the war.

EvanWilliams  [Team Member]
12/21/2010 10:46:45 PM
Originally Posted By tiger222:
You know guys the truncation of Japanese is an offensive term? Why do some of you continue to use it? Why do others continue to allow others to use it?
The war is over 60 years ended, maybe this racism is inherant or somehow acceptable in the gun culture? Please tell me.

My family suffered terribly during the war, and my wifes too.

I am half Japanese, my mother had to eat insects and frogs during the firebombings and sleep in a ditch as a child.
When a B29 flew over our apartment in 1982 for an air show at the local airport, it shook her
to her core she recognized the sound of the engines. She and I were both spat on by some guys in a car while sitting at a bus bench
as they yelled "fucking j*ps!" - nice. I had been in the US for a month, in 1979 had been told this
was the greatest country in the world, and found it was popullated by people like this....

My wife is full german. Her grandmother was raped by the Soviet Army in 1945. Her grandfather
was killed by the russians while trying to escape from Prussia, the red cross ship he was in, loaded with
civillians and unarmed soldiers was sunk in the port by the soviets. Her mother and father endured allied bombings
as children and it still affects them today.

Nothing good comes from war, except the profits to the arms makers
who will support the rewriting of history to make organized murder seem
somehow acceptable..... and pay the politicians to make more wars under false pretense
and then get you guys to go out there and kill for money (profits to the corporations) under
the guise of patriotism.

As far as taking the actions of a "few" and making it the responsibility of an entire nation is nothing
short but the conclusion of a narrow mind, compounded by the emotional compression of war.
Hatred is a cover for their fears, and the unwillingness to handle the root cause.



Won't waste too much time responding to some of your stuff. Some I agree with some I don't.
Your mom slept in a ditch and ate bugs because the stupid thugs running her country started a fight,
insisted upon a No Holds Barred/Dirty Pool ground rules and couldn't finish the fight they started. Point that blame where it belongs.

The Japanese behavior during WW2 was reprehensible to the utmost degree.
They were without doubt the most despicable of a despicable bunch.
Tell yourself whatever you need to tell yourself. Doesn't matter to me.
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