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 Raptorski to fly in 2009
vito113  [Team Member]
5/14/2009 6:07:48 AM
I wonder if the gentleman living at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue is aware of this?



Russia's first post-Soviet warplane to fly in 2009
Mon May 11, 2009 2:27pm BST Email | Print | Share | Single Page [-] Text [+]
By Oleg Shchedrov

KOMSOMOLSK-ON-AMUR, Russia (Reuters) - Russia's first all-new warplane since the fall of the Soviet Union will make its maiden flight before the end of the year, a senior official said on Monday.

"The prime minister (Vladimir Putin) visited today a section of the aircraft factory where he saw fifth-generation warplanes at the final stage of assembly," Deputy Prime Minister Sergei Ivanov told journalists in Komsomolsk in Russia's Far East, where the Sukhoi military and civilian aircraft maker is based.

"Before the end of the year, this plane will take to the sky."

He gave no further details, and journalists were not admitted to the top-secret part of the factory assembling the jet as Putin visited it.

Russia's military program are notorious for delays but if the new Sukhoi warplane does fly this year, it will be the first foreign aircraft to challenge the much-publicized U.S. fifth-generation F-22 "Raptor" jet fighter.

A military commentator for Russia's RIA state news agency said last month that both India and Brazil could be closely involved in Russia's plans to build a fifth-generation jet that would be multi-functional, all-weather and day-and-night.

Other features of the fifth-generation jet, which the Soviet Union first conceived in the 1980s but was developed from scratch in the early years of this century, are its increased maneuverability, its invisibility to all kinds of radar, and its ability to take off and land on short runways.

Russia, engaged in a major reform of its armed forces, badly needs to update its weaponry to fight modern, hi-tech wars.

As well as the all-new jet, Ivanov promised that production of existing Soviet-designed fighters would be stepped up.

"It was agreed that the Defense Ministry would increase its orders for Su-27s and Su-30s by several dozens (of units) in three years," Ivanov told journalists.

In the 1980s, the introduction of the Sukhoi Su-27 fighter, codenamed "Flanker-B" by NATO, put the Soviet Union and its communist allies at the level of the U.S. F-15 and F-16 jets.

The Su-30, known as "Flanker-C" to NATO, is a more formidable version of the Su-27. It made its first flight in the days of the Soviet Union but was introduced to service in post-communist Russia in 1996.

(Writing by Dmitry Solovyov; Editing by Michael Stott and Kevin Liffey)

http://uk.reuters.com/article/gc07/idUKTRE54A2KA20090511?pageNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=0
MK262  [Member]
5/14/2009 6:14:29 AM
Build more F-22's damnit!
nick1983  [Team Member]
5/14/2009 6:17:12 AM
I was just reading the other thread about Russian resurgence due to oil and gas, and now this.

Well once they get the oil and gas flowing big time, they can build these out the ass, and then start throwing them around to anyone who wants to pony up the $$ for the monkey model.

If previous Russian fighters are anything to go by, we have a lot to be worried about.

I can only assume that Ivan is developing his own Meteorski/AIM-120Dski to go with....

vito113  [Team Member]
5/14/2009 6:29:03 AM
Originally Posted By nick1983:
I was just reading the other thread about Russian resurgence due to oil and gas, and now this.

Well once they get the oil and gas flowing big time, they can build these out the ass, and then start throwing them around to anyone who wants to pony up the $$ for the monkey model.

If previous Russian fighters are anything to go by, we have a lot to be worried about.

I can only assume that Ivan is developing his own Meteorski/AIM-120Dski to go with....






Oh yes!

Vympel R-77M1
nick1983  [Team Member]
5/14/2009 6:34:53 AM
Just read about that.

So R-77M1+IRST+AESA.........

Lockmart that BS you're peddling for that "Big Sale," I ain't buyin it.
vito113  [Team Member]
5/14/2009 8:29:01 AM
Originally Posted By nick1983:
Just read about that.

So R-77M1+IRST+AESA.........

Lockmart that BS you're peddling for that "Big Sale," I ain't buyin it.



Fear not! Russian IRST and missile seeker technology lags behind the West!!!!!




Unfortunately, our friends the Phrench have been busily selling the Russians the means to close that gap.
MK262  [Member]
5/14/2009 9:06:37 AM
Originally Posted By vito113:
Originally Posted By nick1983:
Just read about that.

So R-77M1+IRST+AESA.........

Lockmart that BS you're peddling for that "Big Sale," I ain't buyin it.



Fear not! Russian IRST and missile seeker technology lags behind the West!!!!!




Unfortunately, our friends the Phrench have been busily selling the Russians the means to close that gap.


Link please. First I've heard of this.
Special-K  [Team Member]
5/14/2009 9:16:34 AM
I rally hate Obama, but I might hate Gates even just a little bit more.




-K
vito113  [Team Member]
5/14/2009 9:25:36 AM
Originally Posted By MK262:
Originally Posted By vito113:
Originally Posted By nick1983:
Just read about that.

So R-77M1+IRST+AESA.........

Lockmart that BS you're peddling for that "Big Sale," I ain't buyin it.



Fear not! Russian IRST and missile seeker technology lags behind the West!!!!!




Unfortunately, our friends the Phrench have been busily selling the Russians the means to close that gap.


Link please. First I've heard of this.


http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=3658019




Tpalladium  [Member]
5/14/2009 9:33:22 AM
Su-37 maybe? If it is, then it will be a beautiful target for our planes to shoot down.

Guys, I am a product of the Cold War. We were given all these insane numbers concerning the USSR. Insane numbers of tanks, artillery, planes, etc. It turnedout they did indeed have large numbers of equipment, and none of it worked. In fact, a lot of it was just rust with treads. Recently the mighty CIS flew all TWO of its Backfires to Venezuela.

You want to peddle BS to me? Peddle better BS. The CIS is about as militarily effective as the Girl Scouts. They lost roughly 20 aircraft in that tiny dust up in Georgia last year. I would bet serious money that I could find better avionics in a new Cessna 400 or a new Lancair than what will be in the CIS's new jet.
vito113  [Team Member]
5/14/2009 9:37:31 AM
Originally Posted By Tpalladium:
Su-37 maybe? If it is, then it will be a beautiful target for our planes to shoot down.

Guys, I am a product of the Cold War. We were given all these insane numbers concerning the USSR. Insane numbers of tanks, artillery, planes, etc. It turnedout they did indeed have large numbers of equipment, and none of it worked. In fact, a lot of it was just rust with treads. Recently the mighty CIS flew all TWO of its Backfires to Venezuela.

You want to peddle BS to me? Peddle better BS. The CIS is about as militarily effective as the Girl Scouts. They lost roughly 20 aircraft in that tiny dust up in Georgia last year. I would bet serious money that I could find better avionics in a new Cessna 400 or a new Lancair than what will be in the CIS's new jet.



PAK-FA is not an SU-37.

Clearly, but guess what? That was 20 years ago and now the Russians have access to the best Western technology and an open market to source stuff from…

If you think you can find better avionics in a Cessna 400 than even a current Sukhoi SU-27 or SU-30, you're going to be in for one hell of a shock.
mstennes  [Team Member]
5/14/2009 9:46:14 AM
(sarcasm)our F15's, F/A18's and the new F35 will be able to counter this threat(sarcasm), If that doesnt work we will just have a nice community meeting, and work all our differences out over milk and cookies.
mstennes  [Team Member]
5/14/2009 9:47:51 AM
Originally Posted By vito113:
Originally Posted By Tpalladium:
Su-37 maybe? If it is, then it will be a beautiful target for our planes to shoot down.

Guys, I am a product of the Cold War. We were given all these insane numbers concerning the USSR. Insane numbers of tanks, artillery, planes, etc. It turnedout they did indeed have large numbers of equipment, and none of it worked. In fact, a lot of it was just rust with treads. Recently the mighty CIS flew all TWO of its Backfires to Venezuela.

You want to peddle BS to me? Peddle better BS. The CIS is about as militarily effective as the Girl Scouts. They lost roughly 20 aircraft in that tiny dust up in Georgia last year. I would bet serious money that I could find better avionics in a new Cessna 400 or a new Lancair than what will be in the CIS's new jet.



PAK-FA is not an SU-37.

Clearly, but guess what? That was 20 years ago and now the Russians have access to the best Western technology and an open market to source stuff from…

If you think you can find better avionics in a Cessna 400 than even a current Sukhoi SU-27 or SU-30, you're going to be in for one hell of a shock.



Well there was that stealh Cessna incident last winter
Tpalladium  [Member]
5/14/2009 9:48:51 AM
I just looked it up. $120 million a copy? They won't be able to afford many, and what they have will most likely show the same great quality that is in everyting else they make. Sorry, I don't see them as a threat. They never really were, and they still aren't.
vito113  [Team Member]
5/14/2009 9:52:55 AM
Originally Posted By Tpalladium:
I just looked it up. $120 million a copy? They won't be able to afford many, and what they have will most likely show the same great quality that is in everyting else they make. Sorry, I don't see them as a threat. They never really were, and they still aren't.




Ever sat in a non 'Monkey Model' post USSR Sukhoi? Or even a monkey model export Sukhoi?
mstennes  [Team Member]
5/14/2009 9:54:36 AM
Originally Posted By vito113:
Originally Posted By Tpalladium:
I just looked it up. $120 million a copy? They won't be able to afford many, and what they have will most likely show the same great quality that is in everyting else they make. Sorry, I don't see them as a threat. They never really were, and they still aren't.




Ever sat in a non 'Monkey Model' post USSR Sukhoi? Or even a monkey model export Sukhoi?


Whats a monkey model or a no monkey model? What the difference between export?
America-first  [Team Member]
5/14/2009 9:58:50 AM
Originally Posted By Tpalladium:
I just looked it up. $120 million a copy? They won't be able to afford many, and what they have will most likely show the same great quality that is in everyting else they make. Sorry, I don't see them as a threat. They never really were, and they still aren't.


Since America, thanks to Obama/Gates, is sitting on it's ass and no longer producing F 22s while our potential adversaries are engaging in a buildup of their own capabilities across the board; I see a threat.
kpel308  [Team Member]
5/14/2009 10:05:34 AM
Originally Posted By vito113:
I wonder if the gentleman living at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue is aware of this?



Russia's first post-Soviet warplane to fly in 2009
Mon May 11, 2009 2:27pm BST Email | Print | Share | Single Page [-] Text [+]
By Oleg Shchedrov

KOMSOMOLSK-ON-AMUR, Russia (Reuters) - Russia's first all-new warplane since the fall of the Soviet Union will make its maiden flight before the end of the year, a senior official said on Monday.

"The prime minister (Vladimir Putin) visited today a section of the aircraft factory where he saw fifth-generation warplanes at the final stage of assembly," Deputy Prime Minister Sergei Ivanov told journalists in Komsomolsk in Russia's Far East, where the Sukhoi military and civilian aircraft maker is based.

"Before the end of the year, this plane will take to the sky."

He gave no further details, and journalists were not admitted to the top-secret part of the factory assembling the jet as Putin visited it.

Russia's military program are notorious for delays but if the new Sukhoi warplane does fly this year, it will be the first foreign aircraft to challenge the much-publicized U.S. fifth-generation F-22 "Raptor" jet fighter.

A military commentator for Russia's RIA state news agency said last month that both India and Brazil could be closely involved in Russia's plans to build a fifth-generation jet that would be multi-functional, all-weather and day-and-night.

Other features of the fifth-generation jet, which the Soviet Union first conceived in the 1980s but was developed from scratch in the early years of this century, are its increased maneuverability, its invisibility to all kinds of radar, and its ability to take off and land on short runways.

Russia, engaged in a major reform of its armed forces, badly needs to update its weaponry to fight modern, hi-tech wars.

As well as the all-new jet, Ivanov promised that production of existing Soviet-designed fighters would be stepped up.

"It was agreed that the Defense Ministry would increase its orders for Su-27s and Su-30s by several dozens (of units) in three years," Ivanov told journalists.

In the 1980s, the introduction of the Sukhoi Su-27 fighter, codenamed "Flanker-B" by NATO, put the Soviet Union and its communist allies at the level of the U.S. F-15 and F-16 jets.

The Su-30, known as "Flanker-C" to NATO, is a more formidable version of the Su-27. It made its first flight in the days of the Soviet Union but was introduced to service in post-communist Russia in 1996.

(Writing by Dmitry Solovyov; Editing by Michael Stott and Kevin Liffey)

http://uk.reuters.com/article/gc07/idUKTRE54A2KA20090511?pageNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=0

I believe they may be talking about the Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA which is being developed in cooperation with India:


vito113  [Team Member]
5/14/2009 10:11:13 AM
Originally Posted By mstennes:
Originally Posted By vito113:
Originally Posted By Tpalladium:
I just looked it up. $120 million a copy? They won't be able to afford many, and what they have will most likely show the same great quality that is in everyting else they make. Sorry, I don't see them as a threat. They never really were, and they still aren't.




Ever sat in a non 'Monkey Model' post USSR Sukhoi? Or even a monkey model export Sukhoi?


Whats a monkey model or a no monkey model? What the difference between export?


Russia does not export it's best gear…

They build two types of kit, domestic only, and what the Russians refer to as 'monkey models'… as in, good enough for 3rd world monkeys to operate.
cgrant26  [Member]
5/14/2009 10:20:40 AM
Originally Posted By kpel308:
I believe they may be talking about the Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA which is being developed in cooperation with India:
http://paralay.com/t50/rz1.jpg


Highly assemetric thrust in the event of an engine failure? check
Woefully inadequate vert stab size? Check

How long before NATO give's it the codename "Frisbee"?
(if the images are accurate and all)
kpel308  [Team Member]
5/14/2009 10:22:36 AM
Originally Posted By cgrant26:
Originally Posted By kpel308:
I believe they may be talking about the Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA which is being developed in cooperation with India:
http://paralay.com/t50/rz1.jpg


Highly assemetric thrust in the event of an engine failure? check
Woefully inadequate vert stab size? Check

How long before NATO give's it the codename "Frisbee"?


I'm pretty sure that's not the final version... Google Sukhui T-50 for other versions, including a forward-swept model. PAK FA will also bring up a few different looks.
monkey_AR  [Member]
5/14/2009 10:37:36 AM
Originally Posted By vito113:
Originally Posted By mstennes:
Originally Posted By vito113:
Originally Posted By Tpalladium:
I just looked it up. $120 million a copy? They won't be able to afford many, and what they have will most likely show the same great quality that is in everyting else they make. Sorry, I don't see them as a threat. They never really were, and they still aren't.




Ever sat in a non 'Monkey Model' post USSR Sukhoi? Or even a monkey model export Sukhoi?


Whats a monkey model or a no monkey model? What the difference between export?


Russia does not export it's best gear…

They build two types of kit, domestic only, and what the Russians refer to as 'monkey models'… as in, good enough for 3rd world monkeys to operate.


What kind of export volume would they need to make the project work?
vito113  [Team Member]
5/14/2009 10:46:13 AM
Originally Posted By monkey_AR:
Originally Posted By vito113:
Originally Posted By mstennes:
Originally Posted By vito113:
Originally Posted By Tpalladium:
I just looked it up. $120 million a copy? They won't be able to afford many, and what they have will most likely show the same great quality that is in everyting else they make. Sorry, I don't see them as a threat. They never really were, and they still aren't.




Ever sat in a non 'Monkey Model' post USSR Sukhoi? Or even a monkey model export Sukhoi?


Whats a monkey model or a no monkey model? What the difference between export?


Russia does not export it's best gear…

They build two types of kit, domestic only, and what the Russians refer to as 'monkey models'… as in, good enough for 3rd world monkeys to operate.


What kind of export volume would they need to make the project work?



Unlike us, the Russians don't need to work like that…

Vlad says, buy 'x' number of PAK-FA's per year to re-equip the Russian Air Force, they get bought. Selling monkey models is just a bonus.
pcsutton  [Team Member]
5/14/2009 10:47:25 AM
Well sure Commrade Obama is aware of it. He's counting on it. Cancelling our raptor program while the Ruskies go ahead with theirs....is part of the plan...

The Commie Fucker....
vito113  [Team Member]
5/14/2009 10:48:11 AM
Originally Posted By cgrant26:
Originally Posted By kpel308:
I believe they may be talking about the Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA which is being developed in cooperation with India:
http://paralay.com/t50/rz1.jpg


Highly assemetric thrust in the event of an engine failure? check
)







paris-dakar  [Member]
5/14/2009 10:53:36 AM
Originally Posted By vito113:
Originally Posted By nick1983:
Just read about that.

So R-77M1+IRST+AESA.........

Lockmart that BS you're peddling for that "Big Sale," I ain't buyin it.



Fear not! Russian IRST and missile seeker technology lags behind the West!!!!!




Unfortunately, our friends the Phrench have been busily selling the Russians the means to close that gap.


Don't forget Israel.

Tpalladium  [Member]
5/14/2009 10:57:53 AM
Originally Posted By mstennes:

Whats a monkey model or a no monkey model? What the difference between export?


The Hind helicpter came in several models, one was the MT-55B, which was export only. The MT-55B had fewer hard points and shorter range. The Russians jealously guard their techonolgy and don't want it used against them.
bytor94  [Team Member]
5/14/2009 11:21:02 AM

Originally Posted By kpel308:

I believe they may be talking about the Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA which is being developed in cooperation with India:
http://paralay.com/t50/rz1.jpg


I foresee those vertical stabs getting bigger when/if they actually start flight testing it.
vito113  [Team Member]
5/14/2009 11:32:40 AM
Originally Posted By bytor94:

Originally Posted By kpel308:

I believe they may be talking about the Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA which is being developed in cooperation with India:
http://paralay.com/t50/rz1.jpg


I foresee those vertical stabs getting bigger when/if they actually start flight testing it.


The pictures on the internet are only best guesses and they will probably be wrong… one things for sure, the only people who DO know what it looks like are keeping it under very tight wraps.
samsong  [Team Member]
5/14/2009 1:29:20 PM

Originally Posted By MK262:
Build more F-22's damnit!

Sorry, we're done with that.

On to the F-35, if we can manage it.
samsong  [Team Member]
5/14/2009 1:31:22 PM

Originally Posted By Tpalladium:
Su-37 maybe? If it is, then it will be a beautiful target for our planes to shoot down.

Guys, I am a product of the Cold War. We were given all these insane numbers concerning the USSR. Insane numbers of tanks, artillery, planes, etc. It turnedout they did indeed have large numbers of equipment, and none of it worked. In fact, a lot of it was just rust with treads. Recently the mighty CIS flew all TWO of its Backfires to Venezuela.

You want to peddle BS to me? Peddle better BS. The CIS is about as militarily effective as the Girl Scouts. They lost roughly 20 aircraft in that tiny dust up in Georgia last year. I would bet serious money that I could find better avionics in a new Cessna 400 or a new Lancair than what will be in the CIS's new jet.

Woah, are you kidding me?

How? AAD? MANPADS? Other fighters? What happened?
samsong  [Team Member]
5/14/2009 1:33:52 PM

Originally Posted By kpel308:
Originally Posted By vito113:
I wonder if the gentleman living at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue is aware of this?



Russia's first post-Soviet warplane to fly in 2009
Mon May 11, 2009 2:27pm BST Email | Print | Share | Single Page [-] Text [+]
By Oleg Shchedrov

KOMSOMOLSK-ON-AMUR, Russia (Reuters) - Russia's first all-new warplane since the fall of the Soviet Union will make its maiden flight before the end of the year, a senior official said on Monday.

"The prime minister (Vladimir Putin) visited today a section of the aircraft factory where he saw fifth-generation warplanes at the final stage of assembly," Deputy Prime Minister Sergei Ivanov told journalists in Komsomolsk in Russia's Far East, where the Sukhoi military and civilian aircraft maker is based.

"Before the end of the year, this plane will take to the sky."

He gave no further details, and journalists were not admitted to the top-secret part of the factory assembling the jet as Putin visited it.

Russia's military program are notorious for delays but if the new Sukhoi warplane does fly this year, it will be the first foreign aircraft to challenge the much-publicized U.S. fifth-generation F-22 "Raptor" jet fighter.

A military commentator for Russia's RIA state news agency said last month that both India and Brazil could be closely involved in Russia's plans to build a fifth-generation jet that would be multi-functional, all-weather and day-and-night.

Other features of the fifth-generation jet, which the Soviet Union first conceived in the 1980s but was developed from scratch in the early years of this century, are its increased maneuverability, its invisibility to all kinds of radar, and its ability to take off and land on short runways.

Russia, engaged in a major reform of its armed forces, badly needs to update its weaponry to fight modern, hi-tech wars.

As well as the all-new jet, Ivanov promised that production of existing Soviet-designed fighters would be stepped up.

"It was agreed that the Defense Ministry would increase its orders for Su-27s and Su-30s by several dozens (of units) in three years," Ivanov told journalists.

In the 1980s, the introduction of the Sukhoi Su-27 fighter, codenamed "Flanker-B" by NATO, put the Soviet Union and its communist allies at the level of the U.S. F-15 and F-16 jets.

The Su-30, known as "Flanker-C" to NATO, is a more formidable version of the Su-27. It made its first flight in the days of the Soviet Union but was introduced to service in post-communist Russia in 1996.

(Writing by Dmitry Solovyov; Editing by Michael Stott and Kevin Liffey)

http://uk.reuters.com/article/gc07/idUKTRE54A2KA20090511?pageNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=0

I believe they may be talking about the Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA which is being developed in cooperation with India:
http://paralay.com/t50/rz1.jpg

We should have bought the F-23 instead of the F22.

Maneuverability is oversold. Supercruise and stealth will be king. After all, what's harder to turn at 10+ gs? A 45,000 lb fighter or a 330 lb missile?

StandardDeviation  [Team Member]
5/14/2009 1:49:19 PM

Originally Posted By cgrant26:
Originally Posted By kpel308:
I believe they may be talking about the Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA which is being developed in cooperation with India:
http://paralay.com/t50/rz1.jpg


Highly assemetric thrust in the event of an engine failure? check
Woefully inadequate vert stab size? Check

How long before NATO give's it the codename "Frisbee"?
(if the images are accurate and all)

IF the lines on the drawing are accurate, it looks like the entire vertical stabilizer swivels from the base, not just a small control surface on the trailing edge. I think that could make them adequate.

ArmyInfantryVet  [Team Member]
5/14/2009 1:52:06 PM
This fighter wouldn't stand a snow balls chance in hell against the Raptor. We were taking the best trained pilots in the world, putting them in Superbugs, Eagles and Falcons, and the F-22 was kicking their ass without breaking a sweet. And those 3 planes would give this new fighter a good fight.
Star_Scream  [Team Member]
5/14/2009 1:54:40 PM
Originally Posted By StandardDeviation:

Originally Posted By cgrant26:
Originally Posted By kpel308:
I believe they may be talking about the Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA which is being developed in cooperation with India:
http://paralay.com/t50/rz1.jpg


Highly assemetric thrust in the event of an engine failure? check
Woefully inadequate vert stab size? Check

How long before NATO give's it the codename "Frisbee"?
(if the images are accurate and all)

IF the lines on the drawing are accurate, it looks like the entire vertical stabilizer swivels from the base, not just a small control surface on the trailing edge. I think that could make them adequate.



Which is a very interesting idea.
Star_Scream  [Team Member]
5/14/2009 1:56:05 PM
Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:
This fighter wouldn't stand a snow balls chance in hell against the Raptor. We were taking the best trained pilots in the world, putting them in Superbugs, Eagles and Falcons, and the F-22 was kicking their ass without breaking a sweet. And those 3 planes would give this new fighter a good fight.


Generation gap between the raptor and the others accounts for a significant part of it.

Supposedly this will be on the same level as the raptor.
DPeacher  [Team Member]
5/14/2009 1:58:50 PM
Originally Posted By vito113:
I wonder if the gentleman living at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue is aware of this?



Aware? He probably sold them the plans...
DontShootMyDog  [Member]
5/14/2009 2:08:34 PM
Originally Posted By samsong:
We should have bought the F-23 instead of the F22.

Maneuverability is oversold. Supercruise and stealth will be king. After all, what's harder to turn at 10+ gs? A 45,000 lb fighter or a 330 lb missile?



And the 23 was way cooler looking.

Tpalladium  [Member]
5/14/2009 2:10:02 PM
Originally Posted By samsong:

Woah, are you kidding me?

How? AAD? MANPADS? Other fighters? What happened?


I shit thee not, Amish. Look it up for yourself. Ground fire, MANPADS, ATA, SAMs and plain old fuck ups behind the wheel. Did you know they sent a wing of Frogfoots in to bomb the only existing Frogfoot factory? Ironic, eh?

Tpalladium  [Member]
5/14/2009 2:11:17 PM
[quote]Originally Posted By DontShootMyDog:
And the 23 was way cooler looking.
[/div]

It was far more graceful in appearance.
DLaw  [Team Member]
5/14/2009 2:15:29 PM
I work for a top secret alphabet soup agency and was able to obtain pics of this top secret aircraft...



We are sending this man to steal it....



Please don't tell anyone about this...
happycynic  [Team Member]
5/14/2009 2:17:20 PM
Originally Posted By vito113:
I wonder if the gentleman living at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue is aware of this?


Racist!
pyro6988  [Team Member]
5/14/2009 2:19:50 PM
How many raptors do we have again?

vito113  [Team Member]
5/14/2009 4:03:46 PM
Originally Posted By samsong:

Originally Posted By Tpalladium:
Su-37 maybe? If it is, then it will be a beautiful target for our planes to shoot down.

Guys, I am a product of the Cold War. We were given all these insane numbers concerning the USSR. Insane numbers of tanks, artillery, planes, etc. It turnedout they did indeed have large numbers of equipment, and none of it worked. In fact, a lot of it was just rust with treads. Recently the mighty CIS flew all TWO of its Backfires to Venezuela.

You want to peddle BS to me? Peddle better BS. The CIS is about as militarily effective as the Girl Scouts. They lost roughly 20 aircraft in that tiny dust up in Georgia last year. I would bet serious money that I could find better avionics in a new Cessna 400 or a new Lancair than what will be in the CIS's new jet.

Woah, are you kidding me?

How? AAD? MANPADS? Other fighters? What happened?




They lost nothing like 20 planes… 20 was the Georgian claim, but there again, they claimed they were pushing the Russians back even as their troops were in headlong retreat to Tbilisi live on TV.

Russian declared losses were:

one Tu-22M3 long-range bomber
one Su-24M Fencer frontal bomber
one Su-24MR Fencer E reconnaissance plane
four Su-25 attack planes.

And that's the figure reliable Western sources agree with.



Now, before you all get too excited by all this some rather disappointing news for you.

The Georgian operation was conducted by the Trans Caucasus Military District. This Command is very definately 2nd dickie, no T-80's Tor M's, Tunguskas, latest model SU's and MiG's and the like, they are 2nd Tier forces. They only 1st Tier forces deployed were the Paratroops deployed as part of the force from northern Commands.

Russia's 1st Tier forces are the Leningrad Military District and the Moscow Military District… they get all the best troops and latest kit.



However, the Georgia operation was a goldmine of data for the Russians. This was the first time Russian troops had gone up against troops trained and equipped to Western standards.

It was very instructive to them and the lessons learned are being adopted across the Russian armed forces.

They learned that they needed lots of GPS at the squad level, the need for NVG's for everyone, they found the lack of recon UAV's very limiting, aircraft/SAM deconfiction was also an issue and is belived to have led to a few of their losses were pilots were unsure whether they were being targeted by hostile of friendlies as both sided were using the same aircraft and missiles. They also identfied the need for a less top heavy command structure with more authority devolved to the company/regiment level. They also found their professional, as against conscript Paratroops performed much better than conscripts troops.

GPS? They are buying this stuff as COTS
NVG's? Buying these in quantity too.
UAV's? They've just signed a deal with IAI in Isral for one example of all their state of the art drones and the technical data so they can reverse engineer them for their own needs.
Deconfliction? They recently held a big exercise testing new IFF protocols.
Top heavy Command structure? They have announced a significant slimming down of the upper echelons along with a major expansion of their NCO corps.
Conscripts? HIgh Command has confirmed that they should translate to an all professional armed forces as soon as is feasible.



The Bear is learning, they've been watching with great interest the performance of US led forces in the Middle East these last 18 years, Goergia was a great opportunity for them to see what works and what doesn't and plan for the future.

Russian commentators find the resurgence in the West of Kremlinology, the study of the Kremlins mindset so popular during the Cold War, and equating Russian actions with those days quite amusing as they note, Moscow is no longer led by a cabal of Geriatrics only wanting to stay in their jobs, it's now led by a very nationalistic President with lots of oil revenues to fund his ambitions. To examine Putin/Medvedev through a Cold War looking glass will get you the wrong answers.

As they also observe, the USSR needed an army that was primarily an occupying force, something the Russians don't do very well and just needed lots of poorly trained peons and adequate kit in quantity.
Putins new and increasingly nationalist Russian needs an offensive armed forces, that's what the Russians do best and that's what they are translating to.
Ditto the image of the poorly trained, badly treated and utterly demotivated conscript of USSR days. I've met current Russian service personnel, they couldn't be more different. They are now increasingly well trained professional personnel, highly motivated and driven by a new and very fierce Russian nationalism fed by Putins dialogue of a Russia that's been done down by an evil and schemeing West. The Russians are lapping it up.

Vladimir Putin is a very dangerous man with a plan. He's spent the last decade sinking most of Russia's defence budget into bringing his Strategic Rocket Forces up to date with modern missiles and warheads, his next goal is to rearm and re-equip the Russian Air Force with up to date aircraft… once he's done that it will be the Armies turn.


Anyone want to place a bet how resistant Europe with it's shrinking military will be to Russian antics and mischief making in around 2020 onwards when the Russians will have a large and mostly professional armed forces equipped with modern kit sitting on their doorstep?

hushpuppy  [Member]
5/14/2009 4:22:21 PM
excellent post ... thanks
Mateba  [Team Member]
5/14/2009 4:24:53 PM
Originally Posted By cgrant26:
Originally Posted By kpel308:
I believe they may be talking about the Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA which is being developed in cooperation with India:
http://paralay.com/t50/rz1.jpg


Highly assemetric thrust in the event of an engine failure? check
Woefully inadequate vert stab size? Check

How long before NATO give's it the codename "Frisbee"?
(if the images are accurate and all)




We got us a rocket scientist here!
mstennes  [Team Member]
5/14/2009 6:25:12 PM
Originally Posted By vito113:
Originally Posted By mstennes:
Originally Posted By vito113:
Originally Posted By Tpalladium:
I just looked it up. $120 million a copy? They won't be able to afford many, and what they have will most likely show the same great quality that is in everyting else they make. Sorry, I don't see them as a threat. They never really were, and they still aren't.




Ever sat in a non 'Monkey Model' post USSR Sukhoi? Or even a monkey model export Sukhoi?


Whats a monkey model or a no monkey model? What the difference between export?


Russia does not export it's best gear…

They build two types of kit, domestic only, and what the Russians refer to as 'monkey models'… as in, good enough for 3rd world monkeys to operate.

Oh thanks....................lol.....................

mstennes  [Team Member]
5/14/2009 6:26:39 PM
Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:
This fighter wouldn't stand a snow balls chance in hell against the Raptor. We were taking the best trained pilots in the world, putting them in Superbugs, Eagles and Falcons, and the F-22 was kicking their ass without breaking a sweet. And those 3 planes would give this new fighter a good fight.


True, but by time Obongo is done with us, we will be using Spads, and Jenny's
Swindle1984  [Team Member]
5/14/2009 6:41:09 PM
Incidentally, Russia is still continuing the two-tank philosophy they had throughout the Cold War. Previously, they had mass-produced cheap T-72's and fewer, expensive T-80's. Currently, they have 9,700 T-72's and 6,000 T-80's in inventory.

Now they're producing the T-90 (updated T-72 that fixes some of the flaws of the older tank) as the cheap, mass-produced model and phasing out their older T-72's. Last I checked, they had roughly 350 T-90's and about as many T-72's that had been updated to T-90 standards (only the engine, weapon, and electronics were upgraded; the chassis, etc. still have the T-72's old design flaws.). The new, expensive tank for their elite forces will be the T-95, which is supposed to enter production any year now. It's a larger, western-style MBT, and not much else is known about it.

China is following the same philosophy. They're phasing out their 6,000 horribly obsolete Type 59's and 500 Type 88's in favor of mass-produced Type 96's and fewer Type 99's issued to their elite units. Last I checked, China had 2,500 Type 96's and 500 Type 99's.





Russia has some really good military hardware, but they don't seem to be able to field much of it. They only have fifteen Su-35's, and I don't know if they're even going to continue producing them if their Raptorski is a viable design. They also haven't really been mass-producing the T-90. India, meanwhile, is scheduled to produce 1,000 of them and already has several hundred in inventory. And someday they'll actually be able to replace the AK-74 with the AN-94 like they've been wanting to do since, well, forever. Between the selling of their own resources and their attempts to claim oil in the Arctic, their economy may get a big enough boost for them to start replacing all their obsolete Cold War shit with modern shit.
Swindle1984  [Team Member]
5/14/2009 6:50:00 PM
Originally Posted By vito113:
Originally Posted By mstennes:
Originally Posted By vito113:
Originally Posted By Tpalladium:
I just looked it up. $120 million a copy? They won't be able to afford many, and what they have will most likely show the same great quality that is in everyting else they make. Sorry, I don't see them as a threat. They never really were, and they still aren't.




Ever sat in a non 'Monkey Model' post USSR Sukhoi? Or even a monkey model export Sukhoi?


Whats a monkey model or a no monkey model? What the difference between export?


Russia does not export it's best gear…

They build two types of kit, domestic only, and what the Russians refer to as 'monkey models'… as in, good enough for 3rd world monkeys to operate.


An example:

Russia late-model T-72's have composite armor, ERA, laser rangefinders, targeting computers, and NBC protection.

Iraqi monkey-model T-72's had steel armor, no ERA, optical rangefinders that don't even work under 1,000 yards, no targeting computers, shitty engines, no radio, and most of their ammo would have been considered obsolete in 1943.

And the monkey-models typically received little to no maintenance.




It's not like we sell other countries our classified weaponry and electronics when we sell them tanks and aircraft and shit. Is an Egyptian M1 Abrams the equal of an American M1 Abrams? Heeeeeck no. And that's not even taking shitty Egyptian maintenance into account.
nick1983  [Team Member]
5/14/2009 8:17:29 PM
Originally Posted By vito113:
Originally Posted By samsong:

Originally Posted By Tpalladium:
Su-37 maybe? If it is, then it will be a beautiful target for our planes to shoot down.

Guys, I am a product of the Cold War. We were given all these insane numbers concerning the USSR. Insane numbers of tanks, artillery, planes, etc. It turnedout they did indeed have large numbers of equipment, and none of it worked. In fact, a lot of it was just rust with treads. Recently the mighty CIS flew all TWO of its Backfires to Venezuela.

You want to peddle BS to me? Peddle better BS. The CIS is about as militarily effective as the Girl Scouts. They lost roughly 20 aircraft in that tiny dust up in Georgia last year. I would bet serious money that I could find better avionics in a new Cessna 400 or a new Lancair than what will be in the CIS's new jet.

Woah, are you kidding me?

How? AAD? MANPADS? Other fighters? What happened?




They lost nothing like 20 planes… 20 was the Georgian claim, but there again, they claimed they were pushing the Russians back even as their troops were in headlong retreat to Tbilisi live on TV.

Russian declared losses were:

one Tu-22M3 long-range bomber
one Su-24M Fencer frontal bomber
one Su-24MR Fencer E reconnaissance plane
four Su-25 attack planes.

And that's the figure reliable Western sources agree with.



Now, before you all get too excited by all this some rather disappointing news for you.

The Georgian operation was conducted by the Trans Caucasus Military District. This Command is very definately 2nd dickie, no T-80's Tor M's, Tunguskas, latest model SU's and MiG's and the like, they are 2nd Tier forces. They only 1st Tier forces deployed were the Paratroops deployed as part of the force from northern Commands.

Russia's 1st Tier forces are the Leningrad Military District and the Moscow Military District… they get all the best troops and latest kit.



However, the Georgia operation was a goldmine of data for the Russians. This was the first time Russian troops had gone up against troops trained and equipped to Western standards.

It was very instructive to them and the lessons learned are being adopted across the Russian armed forces.

They learned that they needed lots of GPS at the squad level, the need for NVG's for everyone, they found the lack of recon UAV's very limiting, aircraft/SAM deconfiction was also an issue and is belived to have led to a few of their losses were pilots were unsure whether they were being targeted by hostile of friendlies as both sided were using the same aircraft and missiles. They also identfied the need for a less top heavy command structure with more authority devolved to the company/regiment level. They also found their professional, as against conscript Paratroops performed much better than conscripts troops.

GPS? They are buying this stuff as COTS
NVG's? Buying these in quantity too.
UAV's? They've just signed a deal with IAI in Isral for one example of all their state of the art drones and the technical data so they can reverse engineer them for their own needs.
Deconfliction? They recently held a big exercise testing new IFF protocols.
Top heavy Command structure? They have announced a significant slimming down of the upper echelons along with a major expansion of their NCO corps.
Conscripts? HIgh Command has confirmed that they should translate to an all professional armed forces as soon as is feasible.



The Bear is learning, they've been watching with great interest the performance of US led forces in the Middle East these last 18 years, Goergia was a great opportunity for them to see what works and what doesn't and plan for the future.

Russian commentators find the resurgence in the West of Kremlinology, the study of the Kremlins mindset so popular during the Cold War, and equating Russian actions with those days quite amusing as they note, Moscow is no longer led by a cabal of Geriatrics only wanting to stay in their jobs, it's now led by a very nationalistic President with lots of oil revenues to fund his ambitions. To examine Putin/Medvedev through a Cold War looking glass will get you the wrong answers.

As they also observe, the USSR needed an army that was primarily an occupying force, something the Russians don't do very well and just needed lots of poorly trained peons and adequate kit in quantity.
Putins new and increasingly nationalist Russian needs an offensive armed forces, that's what the Russians do best and that's what they are translating to.
Ditto the image of the poorly trained, badly treated and utterly demotivated conscript of USSR days. I've met current Russian service personnel, they couldn't be more different. They are now increasingly well trained professional personnel, highly motivated and driven by a new and very fierce Russian nationalism fed by Putins dialogue of a Russia that's been done down by an evil and schemeing West. The Russians are lapping it up.

Vladimir Putin is a very dangerous man with a plan. He's spent the last decade sinking most of Russia's defence budget into bringing his Strategic Rocket Forces up to date with modern missiles and warheads, his next goal is to rearm and re-equip the Russian Air Force with up to date aircraft… once he's done that it will be the Armies turn.


Anyone want to place a bet how resistant Europe with it's shrinking military will be to Russian antics and mischief making in around 2020 onwards when the Russians will have a large and mostly professional armed forces equipped with modern kit sitting on their doorstep?


By which time the Russians will have a shitload of PAK-FAs.

We fools in the West will be stuck with only 180 or so F-22s, the only aircraft which will be able to claim parity.

The West needs to wake the fuck-up ASAP.