AR15.Com Archives
 7.62x54 Vs. .308...... also Steel Penertration Question.
goodoleboy  [Team Member]
5/6/2009 5:07:50 AM EST
ive heard the x54 round is close to a .308 round..Is this true looknig at light ball ammo mostly as its going through a PSL-54c

Also How far does the 7.62x54 penertrate in steel plates at the range? Anyone have pics or data on that?
Paid Advertisement
--
DriftPunch  [Team Member]
5/6/2009 5:11:28 AM EST
They are in the same category...

As to the question of power, that depends on the loadings. Commercial hunting .308 can be pretty stout, as can '80s Soviet LPS. You will also find some loadings that are weaker in each.

The real trick is that you shouldn't use ammo with heavy bullets in your PSL. Stay with modern milspec LPS loadings ~150 grain and you should be good. 180 grain is too heavy and can batter the mechanism.
GarandM1  [Team Member]
5/6/2009 5:12:49 AM EST
Que?

Are you talking about performance, or dimensions?

In terms of performance, virtually all the .30 caliber "battle rounds" –– .303, .308, 7.62X54, 8mm Mauser, .30-06 –– have similar ballistics.

In terms of dimensions, .308 = 7.62 X 51 mm. Fail.
osprey21  [Life Member]
5/6/2009 5:15:39 AM EST
They are both .30 caliber bullets. They both travel roughly the same velocity out of their respective barrels. So, in essence they both are equally powerful & will do they same amount of damage to a soft skinned target. Being bolt action or semi-auto makes no difference in downrange performance or ballistics.
eodtech2000  [Team Member]
5/6/2009 5:17:41 AM EST
Originally Posted By osprey21:
They are both .30 caliber bullets. They both travel roughly the same velocity out of their respective barrels. So, in essence they both are equally powerful & will do they same amount of damage to a soft skinned target. Being bolt action or semi-auto makes no difference in downrange performance or ballistics.


+1
Birddog1911  [Team Member]
5/6/2009 5:21:12 AM EST
Originally Posted By osprey21:
They are both .30 caliber bullets. They both travel roughly the same velocity out of their respective barrels. So, in essence they both are equally powerful & will do they same amount of damage to a soft skinned target. Being bolt action or semi-auto makes no difference in downrange performance or ballistics.


WRONG! 7.62x54R is actually .311. That is why if you reload .308 bullets in .54R, your accuracy will be affected. Go here for an idea on tragectories. They are fairly similar.
eodtech2000  [Team Member]
5/6/2009 5:29:44 AM EST
Originally Posted By Birddog1911:
Originally Posted By osprey21:
They are both .30 caliber bullets. They both travel roughly the same velocity out of their respective barrels. So, in essence they both are equally powerful & will do they same amount of damage to a soft skinned target. Being bolt action or semi-auto makes no difference in downrange performance or ballistics.


WRONG! 7.62x54R is actually .311. That is why if you reload .308 bullets in .54R, your accuracy will be affected. Go here for an idea on tragectories. They are fairly similar.


Actually the 7.62x54R can range from .308 to .311, a great deal are .310. It has always been considered a .30 cal cartridge.
Bob1984  [Team Member]
5/6/2009 5:31:36 AM EST
Some of the heavier and more powerful loadings in 7.62x54R come a little closer to .30-'06, IMO. But 7.62x54r "light ball" is pretty much equivalent to 7.62 NATO ballistically, for most intents and purposes.

As stated, most of the .30 caliber "battle rifle" rounds are in a similar category ballistically.
Birddog1911  [Team Member]
5/6/2009 5:34:27 AM EST
Originally Posted By eodtech2000:
[Actually the 7.62x54R can range from .308 to .311, a great deal are .310. It has always been considered a .30 cal cartridge.


Okay EOD, technically, we are both correct. But for reloading, best to use .311. Can we agree on that?

Bob1984  [Team Member]
5/6/2009 5:34:53 AM EST
Originally Posted By Birddog1911:
Originally Posted By eodtech2000:
[Actually the 7.62x54R can range from .308 to .311, a great deal are .310. It has always been considered a .30 cal cartridge.


Okay EOD, technically, we are both correct. But for reloading, best to use .311. Can we agree on that?



You'd use the same bullets as for a .303 British, IIRC.
osprey21  [Life Member]
5/6/2009 5:35:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By Birddog1911:
Originally Posted By osprey21:
They are both .30 caliber bullets. They both travel roughly the same velocity out of their respective barrels. So, in essence they both are equally powerful & will do they same amount of damage to a soft skinned target. Being bolt action or semi-auto makes no difference in downrange performance or ballistics.


WRONG! 7.62x54R is actually .311. That is why if you reload .308 bullets in .54R, your accuracy will be affected. Go here for an idea on tragectories. They are fairly similar.


semantics

GarandM1  [Team Member]
5/6/2009 5:36:34 AM EST
Originally Posted By Birddog1911:
Originally Posted By eodtech2000:
[Actually the 7.62x54R can range from .308 to .311, a great deal are .310. It has always been considered a .30 cal cartridge.


Okay EOD, technically, we are both correct. But for reloading, best to use .311. Can we agree on that?



Absolutely not. This being ARFCOM GD, you must have a heated argument that goes at least 5 pages before it collapses into an orgy of name-calling and personal attacks and is locked.

Old_Painless  [Life Member]
5/6/2009 5:36:50 AM EST
Originally Posted By eodtech2000:
Originally Posted By Birddog1911:
Originally Posted By osprey21:
They are both .30 caliber bullets. They both travel roughly the same velocity out of their respective barrels. So, in essence they both are equally powerful & will do they same amount of damage to a soft skinned target. Being bolt action or semi-auto makes no difference in downrange performance or ballistics.


WRONG! 7.62x54R is actually .311. That is why if you reload .308 bullets in .54R, your accuracy will be affected. Go here for an idea on tragectories. They are fairly similar.


Actually the 7.62x54R can range from .308 to .311, a great deal are .310. It has always been considered a .30 cal cartridge.


Yes, and the fact that the bullets and bores range from .307 to .312 is the reason that they will never be as accurate as a high quality .308 shooting high quality .308 bullets.

I love my Mosins and they are fun guns.

But they are not even in the same ball park as my .308 bolt action rifles as regards accuracy.

eodtech2000  [Team Member]
5/6/2009 5:39:30 AM EST
Originally Posted By Birddog1911:
Originally Posted By eodtech2000:
[Actually the 7.62x54R can range from .308 to .311, a great deal are .310. It has always been considered a .30 cal cartridge.


Okay EOD, technically, we are both correct. But for reloading, best to use .311. Can we agree on that?



.310 or .311 would be fine, that would take into account rifles with looser bores and a .308 barrel will not care if fed the larger projectile plus given the size of throats in .mil rifles one isn't likely going to run into a tight neck.
Birddog1911  [Team Member]
5/6/2009 5:39:32 AM EST
Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
Yes, and the fact that the bullets and bores range from .307 to .312 is the reason that they will never be as accurate as a high quality .308 shooting high quality .308 bullets.

I love my Mosins and they are fun guns.

But they are not even in the same ball park as my .308 bolt action rifles as regards accuracy.



Well sure, but to even try to compare a Mosin to ANY modern bolt action .308 is completely pointless, don't you think?
guns762  [Team Member]
5/6/2009 5:40:44 AM EST
Originally Posted By Birddog1911:
Originally Posted By eodtech2000:
[Actually the 7.62x54R can range from .308 to .311, a great deal are .310. It has always been considered a .30 cal cartridge.


Okay EOD, technically, we are both correct. But for reloading, best to use .311. Can we agree on that?



With any rifle chambered for 7.62X54R, it is always best to measure the bore before choosing a bullet. Some rifles will shoot .308 bullets best, other's .312, but I've found most like the .311.
WinstonSmith  [Team Member]
5/6/2009 5:41:19 AM EST
Originally Posted By Bob1984:
Originally Posted By Birddog1911:
Originally Posted By eodtech2000:
[Actually the 7.62x54R can range from .308 to .311, a great deal are .310. It has always been considered a .30 cal cartridge.


Okay EOD, technically, we are both correct. But for reloading, best to use .311. Can we agree on that?



You'd use the same bullets as for a .303 British, IIRC.


Yup, but like the .303, it's worth slugging the bore to find out what exactly you're dealing with.
eodtech2000  [Team Member]
5/6/2009 5:45:17 AM EST
Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
Originally Posted By eodtech2000:
Originally Posted By Birddog1911:
Originally Posted By osprey21:
They are both .30 caliber bullets. They both travel roughly the same velocity out of their respective barrels. So, in essence they both are equally powerful & will do they same amount of damage to a soft skinned target. Being bolt action or semi-auto makes no difference in downrange performance or ballistics.


WRONG! 7.62x54R is actually .311. That is why if you reload .308 bullets in .54R, your accuracy will be affected. Go here for an idea on tragectories. They are fairly similar.


Actually the 7.62x54R can range from .308 to .311, a great deal are .310. It has always been considered a .30 cal cartridge.


Yes, and the fact that the bullets and bores range from .307 to .312 is the reason that they will never be as accurate as a high quality .308 shooting high quality .308 bullets.

I love my Mosins and they are fun guns.

But they are not even in the same ball park as my .308 bolt action rifles as regards accuracy.



Sometimes I fancy rebarreling one of my mosins with a good quality .308 barrel like a Shilen, of course the barrel would have to remain the same profile as original barrel and have the original iron sights fitted. I bet it would should quite well, they always have had a reputation for accuracy when fitted with a good barrel.
yagotme  [Member]
5/6/2009 5:59:37 AM EST
Originally Posted By GarandM1:
Originally Posted By Birddog1911:
Originally Posted By eodtech2000:
[Actually the 7.62x54R can range from .308 to .311, a great deal are .310. It has always been considered a .30 cal cartridge.


Okay EOD, technically, we are both correct. But for reloading, best to use .311. Can we agree on that?



Absolutely not. This being ARFCOM GD, you must have a heated argument that goes at least 5 pages before it collapses into an orgy of name-calling and personal attacks and is locked.



In on one.

ETA: IBTL

freewilly  [Member]
5/6/2009 6:06:44 AM EST
A good rifle in 7.62x54R is as accurate as any other rifle in any other caliber. It all depends.
Speaking of depends, I have to go change mine. They are .311 or mebbe .308. Depends on the bore size. I haven't had my barrel slugged for a long time. Ummm, now, where was I, oh yeah, a 7.62x54 R with good ammo like 7N1 can be a great shooter. I have a PSl that will do around an inch at 100 yds with this ammo, so long as the barrel doesn't get too hot. Still, far more rifles in .308 are made that are far more precise than the majority of the 7.62x54R rifles, and much better ammo is available for the .308. I just don't believe the red's philosophy about accuracy ever was like our own. However, a skilled marksman with a good 7.62x54R rifle would be a force to be reckoned with out to 600+ yards.
Old_Painless  [Life Member]
5/6/2009 6:26:45 AM EST
Originally Posted By Birddog1911:
Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
Yes, and the fact that the bullets and bores range from .307 to .312 is the reason that they will never be as accurate as a high quality .308 shooting high quality .308 bullets.

I love my Mosins and they are fun guns.

But they are not even in the same ball park as my .308 bolt action rifles as regards accuracy.



Well sure, but to even try to compare a Mosin to ANY modern bolt action .308 is completely pointless, don't you think?


Sure.

But his original question was about a "comparison between .308 and 7.62 X 54R"

No modern manufacturer makes a rifle in 7.62 X 54R, so mentioning the accuracy aspects of available systems seemed logical to me.

BlackRifle76  [Team Member]
5/6/2009 6:39:23 AM EST
I just sold my PSL. Only test fired it.

But I read that the round was good for 1000 yard shots. Can a 308 do that?

Does the round have more gunpowder than a 308???
Bob1984  [Team Member]
5/6/2009 6:44:52 AM EST
From: http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=28&p=523854








All three shots are of a 3/4" mild steel target shot at 500 meters. 150 and 180 steel core bullets fired out of 91/30 rifles. The impact of the 7.62x54R bullet is impressive.


Originally Posted By BlackRifle76:
I just sold my PSL. Only test fired it.

But I read that the round was good for 1000 yard shots. Can a 308 do that?

Does the round have more gunpowder than a 308???


According to a guy named Dale at http://kalashnikov.guns.ru/wwwboard/board2/messages/5272.html


Tonight in my gun shop I did an unusual test. I ripped apart three different types of 7.62x54r ammo to see what was inside, and was I supprised. The test is as follows: Tin can 148 grain Russian military ammo had a powder charge of 46 grains. The Sellier&Bellot 180 grain ammo had a powder charge of 40.2 grains of powder. The Wolf 200 grain ammo had a powder charge of 44.0 grains. Now the interesting thing. ALL the powder was the same, extruded type about 1/8" in length. THE RUSSIANS HAVE ONLY ONE TYPE OF RIFLE POWDER. To get pressures where they want them, they change the crimp on the cartridge. The military came apart after 2 blows with the ball puller, the S&B took 5 hammer blows to come apart and the Wolf took 8 hammer blows to come apart. I also found that each and every cartridge projectile had an inner core of lead that went to the base of the projectile (like sniper ammo). Now I know why my 148 gr. tin can ammo shoots so well in my Romak III. In fact the 148 military ammo had the lead base indented into the projectile more than the other two. If anyone has info to add, please e mail me. Dale

WinstonSmith  [Team Member]
5/6/2009 6:54:57 AM EST
A lot of that will be bullet construction too. Tossing .303 Mk VII ball in there isn't really fair on that basis. They ran an aluminum tip and no steel inside. They'd splatter pretty good when they hit armor.
jungp  [Member]
5/6/2009 7:07:00 AM EST
Originally Posted By eodtech2000:
Originally Posted By osprey21:
They are both .30 caliber bullets. They both travel roughly the same velocity out of their respective barrels. So, in essence they both are equally powerful & will do they same amount of damage to a soft skinned target. Being bolt action or semi-auto makes no difference in downrange performance or ballistics.


+1

+2

I did a informal test about 20 years ago. FAL with 150 grain and Mosin Nagant with 180 grain. About the same damage to steel plate I had at 25 yards. Had 125 grain out .300 Win Mag. Not too hot but it went through that steel plate like butter.

jungp  [Member]
5/6/2009 7:07:50 AM EST
Originally Posted By Birddog1911:
Originally Posted By osprey21:
They are both .30 caliber bullets. They both travel roughly the same velocity out of their respective barrels. So, in essence they both are equally powerful & will do they same amount of damage to a soft skinned target. Being bolt action or semi-auto makes no difference in downrange performance or ballistics.


WRONG! 7.62x54R is actually .311. That is why if you reload .308 bullets in .54R, your accuracy will be affected. Go here for an idea on tragectories. They are fairly similar.

Right and wrong. Finns load theirs with .308

Kuraki  [Team Member]
5/6/2009 7:13:51 AM EST
I'd kind of like to rechamber my Enfield in 7.62x54 for cheaper shooting.
guns762  [Team Member]
5/6/2009 7:17:15 AM EST
Originally Posted By BlackRifle76:
I just sold my PSL. Only test fired it.

But I read that the round was good for 1000 yard shots. Can a 308 do that?

Does the round have more gunpowder than a 308???


Yes, the .308 can do 1000yrd shots. Yes, on average, the 54R has a bit more powder in the larger case, but the velocity of both rounds is about the same. The .308 is more efficient, as it is more efficient than the .30-06, but having the same ballistics for most rounds.
LifeSTAR  [Member]
5/6/2009 7:44:59 AM EST
you can shoot 7.62 through a gun chambered for .308 but not the other way around, the .308 has much more pressure and can blow the chambering of something chambered for 7.62
Chuck25  [Member]
5/6/2009 8:01:03 AM EST
Originally Posted By GarandM1:
Originally Posted By Birddog1911:
Originally Posted By eodtech2000:
[Actually the 7.62x54R can range from .308 to .311, a great deal are .310. It has always been considered a .30 cal cartridge.


Okay EOD, technically, we are both correct. But for reloading, best to use .311. Can we agree on that?



Absolutely not. This being ARFCOM GD, you must have a heated argument that goes at least 5 pages before it collapses into an orgy of name-calling and personal attacks and is locked.



Hey OP do not forget the FInnish Mosins. a A M39 can shoot with the best of them. Heck, my Finn 9130 can shoot scary good with czec silver tip.

max229  [Team Member]
5/6/2009 8:15:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By Bob1984:
From: http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=28&p=523854

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c374/Rapidrob/Targets/steelgong4.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c374/Rapidrob/Targets/steelgong3.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c374/Rapidrob/Targets/steelgong6.jpg


All three shots are of a 3/4" mild steel target shot at 500 meters. 150 and 180 steel core bullets fired out of 91/30 rifles. The impact of the 7.62x54R bullet is impressive.


Originally Posted By BlackRifle76:
I just sold my PSL. Only test fired it.

But I read that the round was good for 1000 yard shots. Can a 308 do that?

Does the round have more gunpowder than a 308???


According to a guy named Dale at http://kalashnikov.guns.ru/wwwboard/board2/messages/5272.html


Tonight in my gun shop I did an unusual test. I ripped apart three different types of 7.62x54r ammo to see what was inside, and was I supprised. The test is as follows: Tin can 148 grain Russian military ammo had a powder charge of 46 grains. The Sellier&Bellot 180 grain ammo had a powder charge of 40.2 grains of powder. The Wolf 200 grain ammo had a powder charge of 44.0 grains. Now the interesting thing. ALL the powder was the same, extruded type about 1/8" in length. THE RUSSIANS HAVE ONLY ONE TYPE OF RIFLE POWDER. To get pressures where they want them, they change the crimp on the cartridge. The military came apart after 2 blows with the ball puller, the S&B took 5 hammer blows to come apart and the Wolf took 8 hammer blows to come apart. I also found that each and every cartridge projectile had an inner core of lead that went to the base of the projectile (like sniper ammo). Now I know why my 148 gr. tin can ammo shoots so well in my Romak III. In fact the 148 military ammo had the lead base indented into the projectile more than the other two. If anyone has info to add, please e mail me. Dale


Awesome!
Sturmgewehr-58  [Team Member]
5/6/2009 8:18:51 AM EST
Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
No modern manufacturer makes a rifle in 7.62 X 54R, so mentioning the accuracy aspects of available systems seemed logical to me.


The Russian company Baikal makes several 7.62x54R rifles.

http://www.baikalinc.ru/en/company/34.html
http://www.baikalinc.ru/en/company/67.html
http://www.baikalinc.ru/en/company/69.html
Paid Advertisement
--