AR15.Com Archives
 It's illegal to chain up a dog in Texas now!
krpind  [Life Member]
1/15/2008 6:04:37 PM
www.news-journal.com/news/content/news/stories/stories/2008/01/15/01152008_animal_control.html


Law steps up penalties for restraining dogs


Click-2-Listen
By JIMMY ISAAC

Tuesday, January 15, 2008

A state law that went into effect this past summer is catching some dog owners off guard, local animal officials say.

Before Sept. 1, animal control officers could only intervene when chained dogs were suffering from obvious signs of starvation, dehydration or other signs of abuse or neglect.

Texas House Bill 1411 now makes it a misdemeanor offense to chain a dog overnight, under extreme conditions or for longer than three consecutive hours. A fine of up to $500 comes with a first-time conviction, and a second conviction could mean jail time.

Longview attorney Kelly Heitkamp is a member of the Texas Humane Legislation Network, which was instrumental in writing the bill, she said. Penalties for chaining dogs is not tough enough, she said, "but it's a good step.

"Hopefully, future Legislatures will make it a stronger law than it already is," she said.

"(HB 1411) is just another tool that allows us to deal with people effectively," Longview Animal Control Officer Chris Kemper said. "We have to balance in our jobs what we would like to see people do and what the law allows people to do."

Texas joined California and Maryland in limiting the time dogs can be tethered or chained. The city of Austin has ordered that no chains be used at any time, and other cities could follow suit, Kemper said.

"I'd love to see Longview do that," he added. "We're animal lovers. We have animals that live on the ends of our bed."

The bill was introduced in February by George West, R-Odessa, who has hinted at making the law stricter in the future, according to the Dallas Morning News. The 80th Texas Legislature passed HB 1411 two months before Michael Vick's dogfighting indictment in July.

Chaining brings out a more aggressive side of a dog, Kemper said. Longview police Sgt. Shaun Pendleton said some criminals have used chained dogs in their yards as an alert system.

"For years, there were times when people would put vicious dogs in their yards, and whether it be police or whoever, they couldn't just walk right up to their door," Pendleton said. "By the time they've done all that, the dog's alerted the criminals and they've flushed the drugs down the toilet."

Heitkamp added, "It's a great opportunity to use animal cruelty to prevent another sort of crime."

***

Texas House Bill 1411 at a glance

— An owner may not leave a dog outside and unattended by use of a restraint that unreasonably limits the dog's movement between the hours of 10 p.m. and 6 a.m., is within 500 feet of a school, or in extreme weather conditions. This law does not prohibit a person from walking a dog with a hand-held leash.

— A restraint is described as a chain, rope, tether, leash, cable or other device that attaches a dog to a stationary object or trolley system.

— Extreme weather conditions include outdoor temperatures below 32 degrees, a local heat advisory, an ozone action day or tornado or severe thunderstorm watches or warnings.

— A restraint unreasonably limits a dog's movement if it uses a pinch-type, prong-type or choke-type collar that is not properly fitted, is in an unsafe or unsanitary condition or causes injury to the dog. The restraint must be five times the length of the dog, as measured from the dog's nose to its tail, or a minimum of 10 feet.

— A properly fitted collar measures the circumference of the dog's neck plus at least one inch.

EXCEPTIONS

— A dog restrained to a running line, pulley or trolley system without a pinch-type, prong-type, choke-type or improperly fitting collar

— A dog restrained in compliance with camping or recreational area requirements

— A dog restrained for no longer than three hours in a 24-hour period

— A dog restrained while the owner trains for or pursues a state license that involves the use or presence of the dog

— A dog restrained while the owner is engaged in shepherding or herding livestock, or agricultural activities where the dog is restrained for safety reasons

— A dangerous dog, restrained no longer than necessary to ensure immediate safety for people or other animals

PENALTY

— Class C misdemeanor if a person cited for violating this law fails to comply within 24 hours

— Class B misdemeanor if a person violates this law and has a previous conviction of this offense

If there is more than one dog, the person's violation with respect to each dog constitutes a separate offense.

Source: Texas Legislature online, www.legis.state.tx.us

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krpind  [Life Member]
1/15/2008 6:06:00 PM
Damn......
Bushtree  [Member]
1/15/2008 6:06:29 PM
more legislature that we dont need.
Kuraki  [Team Member]
1/15/2008 6:07:21 PM
Coming from a guy who's youngest dog is a rescue that was kept on 1 foot of chain under a deck, I see nothing wrong with those stipulations.
Gator  [Team Member]
1/15/2008 6:07:53 PM
Jeebus don't they have anything better to do?
jnojr  [Member]
1/15/2008 6:08:09 PM

Originally Posted By krpind:

A state law that went into effect this past summer is catching some dog owners off guard, local animal officials say.

Before Sept. 1, animal control officers could only intervene when chained dogs were suffering from obvious signs of starvation, dehydration or other signs of abuse or neglect.

Texas House Bill 1411 now makes it a misdemeanor offense to chain a dog overnight, under extreme conditions or for longer than three consecutive hours. A fine of up to $500 comes with a first-time conviction, and a second conviction could mean jail time.


Good.

Anyone who thinks chaining their dog up in the freezing cold and without food, water, or shelter because it's a "property rights" issue is someone I want in jail.
tnieto2004  [Member]
1/15/2008 6:08:12 PM

Originally Posted By Kuraki:
Coming from a guy who's youngest dog is a rescue that was kept on 1 foot of chain under a deck, I see nothing wrong with those stipulations.


I'v seen the same .. it is cruel
krpind  [Life Member]
1/15/2008 6:09:13 PM

Originally Posted By jnojr:

Originally Posted By krpind:

A state law that went into effect this past summer is catching some dog owners off guard, local animal officials say.

Before Sept. 1, animal control officers could only intervene when chained dogs were suffering from obvious signs of starvation, dehydration or other signs of abuse or neglect.

Texas House Bill 1411 now makes it a misdemeanor offense to chain a dog overnight, under extreme conditions or for longer than three consecutive hours. A fine of up to $500 comes with a first-time conviction, and a second conviction could mean jail time.


Good.

Anyone who thinks chaining their dog up in the freezing cold and without food, water, or shelter because it's a "property rights" issue is someone I want in jail.


Should we provide shelter for pigs?
Belmont31R  [Team Member]
1/15/2008 6:09:43 PM
Well more feel good BS passed onto the majority by the minority... I have two dogs, and our puppy gets chained up when we are outside because she will take off and can fit through/under our fence if we dont. So if we cant tie her up to run around outside she is going to live inside until she is old enough to not be able to get through the fence. Cant put a new fence up either as its against our housing rules.

Oh and no dog is going to sleep in my bed like thos idiots. Who wants a bunch of animal hair all over where they sleep?
MattyMattel  [Member]
1/15/2008 6:09:56 PM
What's the point of having a dog,if all you're gonna do is chain it up? I had a rescue JRT that was chained up,it makes for not a very socialable dog.
Ghetto  [Team Member]
1/15/2008 6:10:09 PM
Sounds good to me, the neighbor behind me has a Chow that's been on a chain ever since I've moved in.

I'll be calling the local PD tomorrow.
Wobblin-Goblin  [Team Member]
1/15/2008 6:10:36 PM

Originally Posted By jnojr:
Good.

Anyone who thinks chaining their dog up in the freezing cold and without food, water, or shelter because it's a "property rights" issue is someone I want in jail.

Ever wonder where all your meat comes from? Maybe you want to imprison every farmer in the country now, too?
jnojr  [Member]
1/15/2008 6:10:47 PM

Originally Posted By Kuraki:
Coming from a guy who's youngest dog is a rescue that was kept on 1 foot of chain under a deck, I see nothing wrong with those stipulations.


Amen.



This is Tiger, a pit bull who was rescued in California by two rescues working together. When his sad picture came across the internet, with the announcement that he would be killed on Monday, they knew they had to act. This beautiful painting captures the image they saw that day. He spent his entire life on the end of that heavy chain, outside, on cement.
glock21guy  [Member]
1/15/2008 6:10:54 PM
That is insane.

More proof that even the conservative states are breaking down and giving in to the liberals
dolanp  [Member]
1/15/2008 6:11:27 PM
Well, if you're one of those people that is just going to chain your dog up to a tree and leave it outside then why do you get a dog at all?

I think the three-hour rule is maybe a little excessive though.
1Andy2  [Member]
1/15/2008 6:11:46 PM

Originally Posted By jnojr:

Originally Posted By krpind:

A state law that went into effect this past summer is catching some dog owners off guard, local animal officials say.

Before Sept. 1, animal control officers could only intervene when chained dogs were suffering from obvious signs of starvation, dehydration or other signs of abuse or neglect.

Texas House Bill 1411 now makes it a misdemeanor offense to chain a dog overnight, under extreme conditions or for longer than three consecutive hours. A fine of up to $500 comes with a first-time conviction, and a second conviction could mean jail time.


Good.

Anyone who thinks chaining their dog up in the freezing cold and without food, water, or shelter because it's a "property rights" issue is someone I want in jail.


Please. Stay in California.
realwar  [Team Member]
1/15/2008 6:12:23 PM
I bet its from too many dog choking themsleves.
schneecat  [Member]
1/15/2008 6:12:33 PM
Umm... that really is not very restrictive. Sounds like a properly fitted collar, 10 feet or longer, in sanitary conditions and when there is no extreme weather is fine all day/night long. I have no problem with that; anyone who does should not be allowed to have any animal.
Mattl  [Member]
1/15/2008 6:12:46 PM
I can't cpount the number of neglected animals I have come accross who have spent thier life at the end of A 6 foot chain. If you cant afford a fence don't get a fucking dog.
Kuraki  [Team Member]
1/15/2008 6:12:56 PM

Originally Posted By Belmont31R:
Well more feel good BS passed onto the majority by the minority... I have two dogs, and our puppy gets chained up when we are outside because she will take off and can fit through/under our fence if we dont. So if we cant tie her up to run around outside she is going to live inside until she is old enough to not be able to get through the fence. Cant put a new fence up either as its against our housing rules.

Oh and no dog is going to sleep in my bed like thos idiots. Who wants a bunch of animal hair all over where they sleep?




Hey, Mr. Knee-Jerk? It doesn't say you cannot restrain your dog. It provides limits as to just how you do so.
Subnet  [Team Member]
1/15/2008 6:15:14 PM
You guys should move to a free state.


glock21guy  [Member]
1/15/2008 6:15:26 PM
How could any of you support this ?

Its one thing to abuse an animal, but its quite another to chain a dog up overnight for 3 hours.

First they tell you the dog has to be tied up so it can't roam, which I understand.

Now they say it can't be tied up.

Basically the dog cannot be outside.

Who the hell is the state to tell me I can't have a dog outside for more than 3 hrs a day ? It is not abuse in any form.

Another thing 32 is not cold for many dogs. In texas, i'd be more worried about heat in the summer.
TxRabbitBane  [Member]
1/15/2008 6:16:26 PM
1. feel good legislation for its own sake
2. 3 hour time limit is fucking retarded (wonder where the burden of proof lies in a conviction, hopefully innocent until proven guilty)
3. I'm against animal cruelty, and that includes neglect, but keeping a dog chained for 3.01 hours is far from it.

4. 1 foot chain for any extended time = bad. 10 foot chain as long as it's not all the time and you check if they're tangled or something = no big deal.

What's worse? 10' - 15' of chain or keeping your dog crated inside all day while you work (I know at least 2 people who do this)? IMO better the chain than the crate.

I'm pretty much opposed to legislation of common sense (or the lack thereof)
TOL1488  [Life Member]
1/15/2008 6:16:35 PM

Originally Posted By schneecat:
Umm... that really is not very restrictive. Sounds like a properly fitted collar, 10 feet or longer, in sanitary conditions and when there is no extreme weather is fine all day/night long. I have no problem with that; anyone who does should not be allowed to have any animal.


Agreed but shit like this shouldn't require a law to begin with.
jnojr  [Member]
1/15/2008 6:16:37 PM

Originally Posted By krpind:

Should we provide shelter for pigs?


If you domesticate a pig... if you are going to keep the pig outside of its' natural habitat... then yes. A dog, cat, horse, pig, cow, or budgerigar is a living creature, not an inanimate piece of property. If you're going to keep them, you are taking on a certain responsibility for them. That includes food, water, and shelter from the elements.

I feel nothing but disgust and revulsion for the miserable pieces of shit who enjoy torturing animals to death, or who are so self-invovled they cannot spare a thought for them. Would you willingly spend your life chained up in the heat or cold with no food or shelter? No? So why should an animal be forced to?
Wobblin-Goblin  [Team Member]
1/15/2008 6:17:59 PM
First the wolves and now the dogs.
glock21guy  [Member]
1/15/2008 6:18:33 PM

Originally Posted By schneecat:
Umm... that really is not very restrictive. Sounds like a properly fitted collar, 10 feet or longer, in sanitary conditions and when there is no extreme weather is fine all day/night long. I have no problem with that; anyone who does should not be allowed to have any animal.


Doesnt sound to be like you can tie up a dog at overnight period.

Did I get it wrong ?
krpind  [Life Member]
1/15/2008 6:19:03 PM

Originally Posted By jnojr:

Originally Posted By krpind:

Should we provide shelter for pigs?


If you domesticate a pig... if you are going to keep the pig outside of its' natural habitat... then yes. A dog, cat, horse, pig, cow, or budgerigar is a living creature, not an inanimate piece of property. If you're going to keep them, you are taking on a certain responsibility for them. That includes food, water, and shelter from the elements.

I feel nothing but disgust and revulsion for the miserable pieces of shit who enjoy torturing animals to death, or who are so self-invovled they cannot spare a thought for them. Would you willingly spend your life chained up in the heat or cold with no food or shelter? No? So why should an animal be forced to?


I'm gonna have to get back to you later......but in the mean time, what is a pig's natural habitat?

I be back about 10PM
MillerSHO  [Member]
1/15/2008 6:19:58 PM
While I don't agree laws should be passed over this, it's pretty much a given that if someone chains their dog up in the backyard all day and night, they gave up caring for that animal.

At least let it run around in the backyard so you can say it was protecting your house to some degree.

jnojr  [Member]
1/15/2008 6:20:07 PM

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:

Originally Posted By jnojr:
Good.

Anyone who thinks chaining their dog up in the freezing cold and without food, water, or shelter because it's a "property rights" issue is someone I want in jail.

Ever wonder where all your meat comes from? Maybe you want to imprison every farmer in the country now, too?


Oh, yes, because we all know the only way to get meat is to starve animals, chain them up in the freezing cold, etc.

Cows destined for the slaughterhouse are treated far better than some "people" treat their dogs. After all, when the cow is worth some money, I guess it's OK to bring it into a barn when the snow starts falling, or to make some effort to see to it that there's hay or something to eat. But that dumb old dog isn't worth a nickle, so fuck him... chain him up, and maybe he'll still be alive in a week. Fantastic fucking philosophy.
Kuraki  [Team Member]
1/15/2008 6:20:28 PM
You're not reading the law.

3 hour period in 24 hours is an exception meaning, if your dog is only restrained for 3 in 24 hours, you do not have to follow the "proper" restraint rules listed above.
dolanp  [Member]
1/15/2008 6:22:07 PM

Originally Posted By TxRabbitBane:
1. feel good legislation for its own sake
2. 3 hour time limit is fucking retarded (wonder where the burden of proof lies in a conviction, hopefully innocent until proven guilty)
3. I'm against animal cruelty, and that includes neglect, but keeping a dog chained for 3.01 hours is far from it.

4. 1 foot chain for any extended time = bad. 10 foot chain as long as it's not all the time and you check if they're tangled or something = no big deal.

What's worse? 10' - 15' of chain or keeping your dog crated inside all day while you work (I know at least 2 people who do this)? IMO better the chain than the crate.

I'm pretty much opposed to legislation of common sense (or the lack thereof)


I looked up the law out of curiosity and the minimum length is the greater of 10 feet or 5 times the length of the dog. So if you have enough slack you're fine.
1Andy2  [Member]
1/15/2008 6:22:36 PM

Originally Posted By jnojr:

Originally Posted By krpind:

Should we provide shelter for pigs?


If you domesticate a pig... if you are going to keep the pig outside of its' natural habitat... then yes. A dog, cat, horse, pig, cow, or budgerigar is a living creature, not an inanimate piece of property. If you're going to keep them, you are taking on a certain responsibility for them. That includes food, water, and shelter from the elements.

I feel nothing but disgust and revulsion for the miserable pieces of shit who enjoy torturing animals to death, or who are so self-invovled they cannot spare a thought for them. Would you willingly spend your life chained up in the heat or cold with no food or shelter? No? So why should an animal be forced to?


Sorry, you're wrong. They ARE property. And you're crazy if you equate leaving chattel outside without shelter as torture.

Is chaining a dog up in inclement weather w/o shelter wrong? Yes. I feel that it is morally wrong. But your personal FEELINGS on the matter should not trump the private property RIGHTS of other individuals. Its a moral issue of how another person treats HIS property, not a legal one. Yes, it is HIS property. Not yours.

If you feel that someone is mistreating an animal, offer to buy it. Otherwise, mind your own damn business.
Angelshare1  [Member]
1/15/2008 6:27:19 PM
Won't people just buy more cages???

Redcap  [Team Member]
1/15/2008 6:27:30 PM

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:

Originally Posted By jnojr:

Originally Posted By krpind:

Should we provide shelter for pigs?


If you domesticate a pig... if you are going to keep the pig outside of its' natural habitat... then yes. A dog, cat, horse, pig, cow, or budgerigar is a living creature, not an inanimate piece of property. If you're going to keep them, you are taking on a certain responsibility for them. That includes food, water, and shelter from the elements.

I feel nothing but disgust and revulsion for the miserable pieces of shit who enjoy torturing animals to death, or who are so self-invovled they cannot spare a thought for them. Would you willingly spend your life chained up in the heat or cold with no food or shelter? No? So why should an animal be forced to?


Sorry, you're wrong. They ARE property. And you're crazy if you equate leaving chattel outside without shelter as torture.

Is chaining a dog up in inclement weather w/o shelter wrong? Yes. I feel that it is morally wrong. But your personal FEELINGS on the matter should not trump the private property RIGHTS of other individuals. Its a moral issue of how another person treats HIS property, not a legal one. Yes, it is HIS property. Not yours.

If you feel that someone is mistreating an animal, offer to buy it. Otherwise, mind your own damn business.


I could not agree more.
CookieCrisp  [Member]
1/15/2008 6:32:31 PM
They need that law in Detroit.
FLAL1A  [Team Member]
1/15/2008 6:56:28 PM
Stupid law. On the bright side, it doesn't appear to interfere with how a man keeps his property provided the chain's not too short and the collar not too small.

It is a good thing that statists are often stupidists, as well.
boarslayer15  [Member]
1/15/2008 7:02:33 PM
Can I still chain up my wife?

prk  [Member]
1/15/2008 7:02:47 PM
The way I read it, there's no penalty if you unhook the dog within 24 hours of being cited, so if you took the dog off chain and had it witnessed by animal control, would that get you off the hook? Not sure if that would get the citation dismissed like a fix-it ticket, or if it would count as a violation without a penalty but still counting toward the class B.

It seem that what was posted is not the statute itself, but the newspaper's summary, maybe that explains why the part about 500 feet from a school is written poorly - look at it - WHAT is 500 feet from a school???

So now what if the dog is chained up 'illegally' but has the option of going into a doghouse?

And what is the 'natural habitat' for canines? We could argue about that a lot.

Next we need a law that would require that legislators be chained up at all times and only be let out for a period of three hours a day.
TravisJ1  [Member]
1/15/2008 7:05:41 PM
Some of you need to read the law before you jump to cunclussions.

This is a great step towards preventing animal crulity.


Read it, you should agree with it.


Travis
jnojr  [Member]
1/15/2008 7:16:50 PM

Originally Posted By krpind:

Originally Posted By jnojr:

Originally Posted By krpind:

Should we provide shelter for pigs?


If you domesticate a pig... if you are going to keep the pig outside of its' natural habitat... then yes. A dog, cat, horse, pig, cow, or budgerigar is a living creature, not an inanimate piece of property. If you're going to keep them, you are taking on a certain responsibility for them. That includes food, water, and shelter from the elements.

I feel nothing but disgust and revulsion for the miserable pieces of shit who enjoy torturing animals to death, or who are so self-invovled they cannot spare a thought for them. Would you willingly spend your life chained up in the heat or cold with no food or shelter? No? So why should an animal be forced to?


I'm gonna have to get back to you later......but in the mean time, what is a pig's natural habitat?

I be back about 10PM




I know you think you're really, really clever. I'll try to use small words, so as to not damage your smug sense of self-satisfaction too much.

No animals natural habitat is at the end of a chain.

A pig's natural habitat is not under three feet of snow.

If you live in an area where pigs naturally live, then no, you do not need to build them a house

If you take any animal and put it into a non-natural environment, you are accepting responsibility for meeting that animal's basic needs.

Was that easy enough to understand? I don't think I can simplify it any further. I know it would be much "cooler" to claim that "property rights" allows you to do anything you want to another living creature, and I can't stop you from chaining dogs up away from food and shelter. All I can do is remind you that it isn't right, no matter how you try to twist things around.

How about trying to be a human being, and have a little empathy for an animal that cannot help itself? Huh? What's wrong with that? Nobody is saying you need to build a Taj Mahal for your pig or dog, or feed them ground filet mignon. Just the basics... let them get to food and water, exercise, and be out of elements that they are not used to.

Seriously, there is something deeply wrong with someone who feels that it's OK to chain a dog up and leave it. That isn't "conservatism", that's sociopathy.
sum-rifle  [Member]
1/15/2008 7:20:03 PM
The continuing pussification of the once great State of Texas.......
jnojr  [Member]
1/15/2008 7:22:00 PM

Originally Posted By TravisJ1:
Some of you need to read the law before you jump to cunclussions.

This is a great step towards preventing animal crulity.


Read it, you should agree with it.


No, no, no. It's just a dumb animal, and how dare you interfere with their private property rights to do whatever they want to their animals! Worrying about stupid crap like "animal cruelty" is for wimps, little girls, and Communists. You aren't a wimp, little girl, or a Communist, are you? Go chain your dog up to prove you're a big tough man!

Just for ARFcom, I'm going to give my dog a solid kick in the ribs when I get home. Remind her of who's boss, and remind me that I'm a free man! Maybe I ought to lock her out on the balcony tonight... it'll only get into the 40s, it'll toughen her up a little after all these years of snoozing on my bed.
trwoprod  [Team Member]
1/15/2008 7:24:15 PM

Originally Posted By sum-rifle:
The continuing pussification of the once great State of Texas.......


Texas has some quirks that persist, like animal cruelty. Some are being made more of an issue with the current influx of illegal aliens from Mexico, where animal cruelty is very common. This is trying to fix some of that. There is nothing wrong with the law.
tesnevo  [Team Member]
1/15/2008 7:32:04 PM
If you don't have the facility for an animal, then you should not have one.
I can not tell you how many dogs I have rescued from choking, struggling or wrapped up while being chained in their own yard.
tc556guy  [Team Member]
1/15/2008 7:46:42 PM
If you can't properly care for a domesticated animal, you shouldn't have it.
motown_steve  [Team Member]
1/15/2008 7:50:35 PM
Don't ever let anyone tell you that Texans don't like big government.
glock21guy  [Member]
1/15/2008 9:15:21 PM

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
Don't ever let anyone tell you that Texans don't like big government.


Well noted.

I'll never move to TX, not that MI is any better, but it doesn't seem much worse either.

In addition TX carry laws suck.

VooDoo3dfx  [Team Member]
1/15/2008 9:19:51 PM
Animal threads always bring out the b est in ARFCOmmers.
1IV  [Team Member]
1/15/2008 9:31:06 PM

Originally Posted By Bushtree:
more legislature that we dont need.


Tour the barrio some time.... It is a law well overdue.

diggerwolf  [Team Member]
1/15/2008 9:58:27 PM

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
Sorry, you're wrong. They ARE property. And you're crazy if you equate leaving chattel outside without shelter as torture.

Is chaining a dog up in inclement weather w/o shelter wrong? Yes. I feel that it is morally wrong. But your personal FEELINGS on the matter should not trump the private property RIGHTS of other individuals. Its a moral issue of how another person treats HIS property, not a legal one. Yes, it is HIS property. Not yours.

If you feel that someone is mistreating an animal, offer to buy it. Otherwise, mind your own damn business.

So if I understand you correctly, you are saying I can treat my property--my pets--in any way I deem morally acceptable? I have three dogs and two cats. Suppose I set up a little torture chamber in my garage. I could electrocute one of the dogs, perform experimental surgery on another, hang a cat by its tail over a slow-burning fire, etc. and there should be no laws preventing me from doing so because, after all, they are my personal property and it is my right to treat them however I desire?
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