AR15.Com Archives
 Physics geeks: How can you raise water's freezing point?
DragoMuseveni  [Member]
10/17/2007 12:12:09 PM EST
I know that you can lower the freezing point of water and raise the boiling point by the use of salt or other chemicals. Is it possible to do the opposite?
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buckmaw  [Team Member]
10/17/2007 12:13:43 PM EST
You can raise it by moving the water... Moving water will not freeze at 32deg F....
MillerSHO  [Member]
10/17/2007 12:14:09 PM EST
Pressure?

Or would that lower it?

Im confused.
Seth_Livzz  [Team Member]
10/17/2007 12:15:31 PM EST
Add alcohol to it.
Kuraki  [Team Member]
10/17/2007 12:15:41 PM EST
No, he's asking how can you freeze water at >32F. Moving water would need <32F to freeze.

I do not believe there is any way to do so.
capnrob97  [Team Member]
10/17/2007 12:15:47 PM EST

Originally Posted By buckmaw:
You can raise it by moving the water... Moving water will not freeze at 32deg F....


It won't freeze at a higher temp either
DragoMuseveni  [Member]
10/17/2007 12:16:06 PM EST

Originally Posted By MillerSHO:
Pressure?

Or would that lower it?

Im confused.

If you subject it to a vacuum it will boil over.
I think if you put water under 25,000 atmospheres it will turn to a solid.
Unfortunately, I don't have any way to generate 25,000 atmospheres.
California_Kid  [Team Member]
10/17/2007 12:16:12 PM EST
Put it under a partial vacuum to lower the boiling point.

Add DMSO to raise the freezing point.

Oops, I fail.

Figure 2b temperature vs wt % H2O
some approximate values
25% DMSO-water -9C
40% DMSO-water -28C
50% DMSO-water -52C
70% DMSO-water -70C
75% DMSO-water -27C
dawg_killer  [Member]
10/17/2007 12:16:16 PM EST
Alcohol would lower the freezing point.
chapperjoe  [Team Member]
10/17/2007 12:16:25 PM EST
altitude?
Alacrity  [Member]
10/17/2007 12:18:01 PM EST

Originally Posted By buckmaw:
You can raise it by moving the water... Moving water will not freeze at 32deg F....


I think he means can it be made to freeze above 0deg C - like Cats Cradles ice-nine

Luck
Alac

Keith_J  [Team Member]
10/17/2007 12:19:16 PM EST
You cannot.

But you can make a binary heterophasic solid composed of water in the ice form with methane at the ratio of 1:5.75 methane-water which will remain stable at 60 F and 100 Bar of pressure...

ghengiskhabb  [Team Member]
10/17/2007 12:19:22 PM EST
Rectal cranial inversion deleted
engineer2001  [Member]
10/17/2007 12:19:59 PM EST

Originally Posted By Seth_Livzz:
Add alcohol to it.


+1 - winner

Or, add anti-freeze (ethylene glycol - an alcohol as well)
Bohr_Adam  [Life Member]
10/17/2007 12:20:13 PM EST

Originally Posted By buckmaw:
You can raise it by moving the water... Moving water will not freeze at 32deg F....


That uhhh... also then lowers the freezing point.

As menitoned above, adding pressure would raise it.

The 32 degress fahrenheit thing is based on seal level, IIRC.
engineer2001  [Member]
10/17/2007 12:21:50 PM EST

Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
The 32 degress fahrenheit thing is based on seal level, IIRC.


Yeah, if there are lot of seals in it, it won't freeze. That's why the artic isn't all frozen over and still has liquid water.


I know, I'm sorry in advance...

Bohr_Adam  [Life Member]
10/17/2007 12:22:46 PM EST

Originally Posted By engineer2001:

Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
The 32 degress fahrenheit thing is based on seal level, IIRC.


Yeah, if there are lot of seals in it, it won't freeze. That's why the artic isn't all frozen over and still has liquid water.


Someday, I will learn how to type - and thus get a lot less grief from people.
Alacrity  [Member]
10/17/2007 12:23:46 PM EST

Originally Posted By Keith_J:
You cannot.

But you can make a binary heterophasic solid composed of water in the ice form with methane at the ratio of 1:5.75 methane-water which will remain stable at 60 F and 100 Bar of pressure...



Something like methane hydrate? That would extend the skating season...pesky pressure

Luck
Alac
Andrewh  [Member]
10/17/2007 12:24:24 PM EST
add jello
Utah_Sniper  [Team Member]
10/17/2007 12:25:20 PM EST
You purify the water by de-ionizing it. DI Water freezes at approximately 1.9 deg C and tap water freezes at 0 deg C.
Silence  [Member]
10/17/2007 12:26:02 PM EST

Originally Posted By engineer2001:

Originally Posted By Seth_Livzz:
Add alcohol to it.


+1 - winner

Or, add anti-freeze (ethylene glycol - an alcohol as well)


how does adding anti-freeze raise the freezing point?

Id think it would lower it.
crurifragium  [Member]
10/17/2007 12:26:09 PM EST
put it on a conveyor belt.
ArimoDave  [Team Member]
10/17/2007 12:26:47 PM EST
I'm not sure that you can. There may be some chemicals that can be added which will allow the water solution to freeze at some temperature above 0 degrees C, but most will lower the freezing point. The above solution to move water lowers the freezing point. Water under very high pressure also has a lower freezing point. Water under low pressure does not change the freezing point, it just lowers the boiling point. You can get pressures low enough so that water will boil and freeze at the same temperature.

ETA: KeithJ's answer above with methane is probably the closest you are going to get. 100 Bar is fairly high pressure BTW.
California_Kid  [Team Member]
10/17/2007 12:27:39 PM EST
I found it!

Replace some of the regular hydrogen with duterium or tritium

Melting point

H2O: 0.00°C
D2O: 3.82°C
T2O: 4.49°C

Utah_Sniper  [Team Member]
10/17/2007 12:29:01 PM EST

Originally Posted By Silence:

Originally Posted By engineer2001:

Originally Posted By Seth_Livzz:
Add alcohol to it.


+1 - winner

Or, add anti-freeze (ethylene glycol - an alcohol as well)


how does adding anti-freeze raise the freezing point?

Id think it would lower it.


We add propylene glycol to HVAC Chilled water mixtures to get the freezing point to drop so that cold weather doesn't affect chilled water coils in air handlers.
ThePrepared_com  [Team Member]
10/17/2007 12:29:44 PM EST

Originally Posted By engineer2001:

Originally Posted By Seth_Livzz:
Add alcohol to it.


+1 - winner

Or, add anti-freeze (ethylene glycol - an alcohol as well)


Anti-Freeze is what I was going to say also.

Never mind. I now understand the question
DragoMuseveni  [Member]
10/17/2007 12:30:07 PM EST
Originally Posted By ArimoDave:

I'm not sure that you can. There may be some chemicals that can be added which will allow the water solution to freeze at some temperature above 0 degrees C, but most will lower the freezing point. The above solution to move water lowers the freezing point. Water under very high pressure also has a lower freezing point. Water under low pressure does not change the freezing point, it just lowers the boiling point. You can get pressures low enough so that water will boil and freeze at the same temperature.


But the water is still freezing at 0C.

I guess there isn't anyway to change that. oh well.
FoxCharlieActual  [Member]
10/17/2007 12:31:40 PM EST

Originally Posted By engineer2001:

Originally Posted By Seth_Livzz:
Add alcohol to it.


+1 - winner

Or, add anti-freeze (ethylene glycol - an alcohol as well)


Granola  [Member]
10/17/2007 12:33:47 PM EST
Salt. Look up how ice cream is made.
ArimoDave  [Team Member]
10/17/2007 12:33:51 PM EST

Originally Posted By ThePrepared_com:

Originally Posted By engineer2001:

Originally Posted By Seth_Livzz:
Add alcohol to it.


+1 - winner

Or, add anti-freeze (ethylene glycol - an alcohol as well)


Anti-Freeze is what I was going to say also.

Never mind. I now understand the question


You guys have it backwards. He would like ice at say something close to room temperature---not liquid at sub-zero outside temps.
ArimoDave  [Team Member]
10/17/2007 12:34:07 PM EST


Double post ???

I only hit the submit button once.
Kuraki  [Team Member]
10/17/2007 12:34:58 PM EST

Homogeneous nucleation
Homogeneous nucleation occurs in pure water in which there is no contact with any other foreign substance or surface. With homogeneous nucleation, the conversion of the liquid state to solid state is done by either lowering temperatures or by changes in pressure. However, temperature is the primary influence on the conversion of water to ice or ice to water is temperature.

In homogeneous nucleation, the nucleation begins when a very small volume of water molecules reaches the solid state. This small volume of molecules, is called the embryo and becomes the basis for further growth until all of the water is coverted. The growth process is controlled by the rate of removal of the latent heat being released. Molecules are attaching and detaching from the embryo at roughly equal and very rapid rates. As more molecules attach to the embryo, energy is released causing the temperature of the attached molecules to be lower than the temperature of the unattached molecules. The growth rate continues until all the molecules are attached. At this point, you have the solid state (ice).

Most of us think that pure water freezes at 0 C or 32 F. In fact, the nucleation event (freezing) for pure water will take place as low as minus 40 C or minus 40 F. This is most likely to occur in laboratory experiments or high in the upper atmosphere (upper troposophere).

Heterogeneous nucleation
Hetergeneous nucleation occurs when ice forms at temperatures above minus 40 C or minus 40 F due to the presence of a foreign material in the water. This foreign material acts as the embryo and grows more rapidly than embryos of pure water. The location at which an ice embryo is formed is called an ice-nucleating site. As with homogeneous nucleation, heterogeneous nucleation is governed by two major factors: the free energy change involved in forming the embryo and the dynamics of fluctuating embryo growth. In heterogeneous nucleation, the configuration of molecules and energy of interaction at the nucleating site become the dominating influence in the conversion of water to ice.



ETA emphasis and link to source
Admiral_Crunch  [Team Member]
10/17/2007 12:35:41 PM EST

Originally Posted By Granola:
Salt. Look up how ice cream is made.


You're doing it wrong.

Salt, antifreeze, and alcohol lower the freezing point. The OP wants to RAISE the freezing point.

He wants ice at room temperature.
DragoMuseveni  [Member]
10/17/2007 12:36:51 PM EST

Originally Posted By ArimoDave:

Originally Posted By ThePrepared_com:

Originally Posted By engineer2001:

Originally Posted By Seth_Livzz:
Add alcohol to it.


+1 - winner

Or, add anti-freeze (ethylene glycol - an alcohol as well)


Anti-Freeze is what I was going to say also.

Never mind. I now understand the question


You guys have it backwards. He would like ice at say something close to room temperature---not liquid at sub-zero outside temps.


Exactly.
Silence  [Member]
10/17/2007 12:37:58 PM EST
Congrats Drago...

You have confused more ARFCOMers today than Wave did yesterday with his fake transvestite thread...
CSM  [Team Member]
10/17/2007 12:40:11 PM EST

Originally Posted By Silence:
Congrats Drago...

You have confused more ARFCOMers today than Wave did yesterday with his fake transvestite thread...


+1
iNuhBaDNayburhood  [Team Member]
10/17/2007 12:41:45 PM EST
<------ Former Physics Geek


Originally Posted By Silence:
Congrats Drago...

You have confused more ARFCOMers today than Wave did yesterday with his fake transvestite thread...


Originally Posted By Utah_Sniper:
You purify the water by de-ionizing it. DI Water freezes at approximately 1.9 deg C and tap water freezes at 0 deg C.


+1 on the De-Ionizing of water...

You're not gonna be able to get 'Water' to freeze at any HIGHER of a tempearture than that...
DragoMuseveni  [Member]
10/17/2007 12:43:46 PM EST

Originally Posted By Silence:
Congrats Drago...

You have confused more ARFCOMers today than Wave did yesterday with his fake transvestite thread...


Cool

Granola  [Member]
10/17/2007 12:44:05 PM EST

Originally Posted By Admiral_Crunch:

Originally Posted By Granola:
Salt. Look up how ice cream is made.


You're doing it wrong.

Salt, antifreeze, and alcohol lower the freezing point. The OP wants to RAISE the freezing point.

He wants ice at room temperature.


Poor some water on a table and set a glass of ice water into the water you poored on the table. You will need a few ice cubes in the glass.

Add salt to the glass of ice water and mix it in it. Once it reaches its saturation point leave it alone.

It will leech the heat out of the water on the table and freeze it to the table.

Use to do this at restraunts just to mess with people. Granted you have to already have ice to do this.

Edited to make it more readible..ish
GroundFire201  [Member]
10/17/2007 1:14:45 PM EST
add salt?!
Roguelawyer  [Member]
10/17/2007 1:23:03 PM EST
If you lower the air pressure water will boil at a lower temperature. So I will go out on a limb and say that if you raise the pressure water will freeze at a higher temp.
legalese77  [Member]
10/17/2007 2:44:44 PM EST
Ah yes, the myriad uses of warm ice!

jd1  [Member]
10/17/2007 3:00:11 PM EST
OK, for the cheap seats. He wants the water to freeze at a temperature HIGHER than 32F. So, for example, add Chemical X and when the ambient temp is 40F, it freezes. Adding alcohol, ether, or anything else that keeps water liquid below 32 F is backwards.

jd1
DragoMuseveni  [Member]
10/17/2007 3:11:44 PM EST
Man arfcom is lacking today

This was on wikipedia.

Hot ice is the name given to another surprising phenomenon in which water at room temperature can be turned into ice that remains at room temperature by supplying an electric field on the order of 10^6 volts per meter.[7]

The effect of such electric fields has been suggested as an explanation of cloud formation. The first time cloud ice forms around a clay particle, it requires a temperature of −10 °C, but subsequent freezing around the same clay particle requires a temperature of just −5 °C, suggesting some kind of structural change.




Now all I have to do is find away to generate an electric field of 1.21 megavolts. Oh yeah, a bolt of lighting should be more than enough.
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