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 Philly Shooter used AK pistol
Tacberry  [Team Member]
2/15/2007 9:03:36 AM
So, the news reported that the Navy Yard shooter used an AK47 style pistol.

Does this mean that rifle style pistols are about to go away?

What kind should I get?
Tacberry  [Team Member]
2/15/2007 10:25:17 AM
Now with poll.
blackx  [Team Member]
2/15/2007 10:26:37 AM

Originally Posted By Tacberry:
So, the news reported that the Navy Yard shooter used an AK47 style pistol.

Does this mean that rifle style pistols are about to go away?

What kind should I get?


Why does that naturally mean that this will happen?
jmarkma  [Member]
2/15/2007 10:26:46 AM
There isn't a "none of the above" choice.
CowboyGunner  [Member]
2/15/2007 10:36:33 AM
HK 53
MAT-49  [Member]
2/15/2007 10:37:50 AM
Krinkov Pistol
stormwalker  [Member]
2/15/2007 10:39:35 AM
rifle claiber pistols are just toys........they kill, but so will a golf club.

get a rifle, or a pistol caliber carbine in SBR.

don't waste your money on a fad.
NonConformist  [Team Member]
2/15/2007 11:48:13 AM
You could have done more with the same amount of time it took you to start this thread by writing a letter to your representative
Lon_Moer  [Member]
2/15/2007 11:49:32 AM
FAL
Tacberry  [Team Member]
2/15/2007 2:10:29 PM
BC28  [Member]
2/15/2007 10:51:19 PM
AK Pistol or AK Rifle w/ folding stock??? See bold text below... either the media or cops don't know what they are looking at.


from: www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/16693907.htm

GUNMAN: 'SAY YOUR PRAYERS'

IT PROBABLY DIDN'T take the three business partners - and soon-to-be murder victims - more than a minute after Vincent Julius Dortch closed the door for a meeting in an office at the old Philadelphia Navy Yard to realize he wasn't really there to talk.

Police said that Dortch, 44, had entered the room Monday night with two bags, containing a .40-caliber Glock semiautomatic handgun and an AK pistol. Soon, he accused the other men of cheating him out of money, then he brandished the pistol and wrapped them in duct tape.

"He said something to the effect that you have a minute or two to say your prayers," Joseph Fox, the chief of detectives, told a news conference yesterday.

Over the next few minutes, Dortch carried out a horrific scenario that unfolded like the twisted final scene of a violent Hollywood movie. When it was all over, the three bound businessmen had been shot dead and Dortch had fatally shot himself in the head.

It was the bloodiest shooting in Philadelphia in more than six years. Yet cops said yesterday it could have been even worse if not for the actions of a heroic cop, and of the one surviving shooting victim, who spliced together a severed phone line even as he lay bleeding from a stomach wound.

And although detectives were able to piece together the final moments of Dortch and his victims - Philadelphia advertising executive Mark David Norris, 46; his brother Robert Norris, 41; and the Norrises' boyhood friend, James Reif, 42 - they could not as easily answer the one question still on everyone's mind:

Why did Julius Dortch snap?

Police said yesterday it will be a while before that question can be answered - if ever. But it was clear that money was the root cause, and that Dortch was highly agitated about a business deal he felt had gone wrong.

"Early indications are that the shooter, Mr. Dortch, believed he was the victim of a fraud perpetrated by the executive board of the Watson International company," Police Deputy Commissioner Richard Ross told the news conference.

"We have not been able to determine whether that, in fact, was true. We do have indications that's what the shooter believed."

Homicide Lt. Phil Riehl said last night that Vincent Julius Dortch - who was known by his middle name - was apparently upset that his wife's retirement savings had been lost in a real-estate investment headed by Watson International.

Watson International was led by Robert Norris, a former police officer in New Castle County, Del., and a former football player for the University of Delaware. That was just one of several apparent ties between Watson and Zigzag Net Inc., the Internet-oriented marketing firm founded a decade ago by Mark Norris. The shooting took place in Zigzag's offices in the old Navy Yard complex in South Philadelphia, not far from the Delaware River.

The Watson partners had paid $1.325 million to buy the Heritage Country Club and about 10 surrounding acres in Endwell, Broome County, N.Y. The 200-year-old club, which includes a pool, a bowling alley, a gymnasium and banquet halls, was the former playground of IBM employees. The club, situated in a floodplain, sits on Watson Boulevard, named after former IBM President Thomas John Watson Sr.

The three murdered victims grew up together in nearby Endicott, on the banks of the Susquehanna River near Binghamton. Robert Norris and James Reif were buddies since Union Endicott High School, where Norris was a football star, town officials said.

About a year ago, the three friends, along with a fourth investor, Vasantha Dammavalam, who worked at Zigzag with Mark Norris, formed Watson International Inc. and launched a million-dollar investment venture. The group had hoped to turn the rundown, historic structure into "world-class entertainment and banquet" facilities, according to Watson's Internet site.

Not long after Dortch and two other investors - who also figured into Monday's shooting drama - had contributed about $575,000 toward the purchase price of the resort, the property suffered extensive flood damage, according to homicide detective Riehl.

Officials said the catastrophic flood devastated the Watson property and stymied development plans. The flood caused hundreds of thousands of dollars in damage. Parts of the structure were submerged in water, officials said.

"They said they would be coming back with proposals and formal plans but never did because it was a pretty devastating flood," said Paul A. Nelson, planning and zoning director in Union, N.Y., which includes Endwell and Endicott. "It was probably the most severe flooding we've had since 1936."

Ultimately, an insurance settlement reportedly netted more cash than the original purchase price - about $1.8 million, according to Riehl.

Joseph Moody, Union's economic-development director, said, "They indicated that they were still moving forward with the project and they were committed to the project." But the series of transactions apparently led to questioning by Dortch about what had happened to the money.

On Monday night, according to police, Dortch had called the others to the Zigzag offices in South Philadelphia, ostensibly to meet with a new investor in the project. Besides Dortch and the three men he would murder, police said, two other investors - who have not been identified - along with Zigzag employee Patrick Sweeney, were present. Sweeney is identified on the Zigzag Web site as the firm's human-resources manager.

Dortch carried the AK pistol, which is capable of being folded up, allowing him to fit it easily into his duffel bag. When the supposed meeting began about 8:30 p.m., according to the police officials, Dortch launched into a diatribe accusing the men of fraud and then had the Norrises, Reif, and Sweeney secured to chairs with duct tape while assuring the two other investors he would not harm them.

Over the next few minutes, Dortch shot the four bound men, then asked one of the other investors to help resecure them, and then shot them a second time.

In the chaotic next few minutes, Dortch took the two unharmed investors out to his car, placed the AK pistol in the trunk and said he wanted them to accompany him to New York to kill a fourth Watson official.

However, the two men convinced Dortch to instead go back inside, where he bound them with duct tape in a separate area.

But Sweeney, although critically wounded in the abdomen, was not dead. He had loosened the tape enough to reach the conference phone that Dortch had ripped out. Although the killer had also taken off the receiver, Sweeney somehow spliced together the severed wire, put the phone on speaker, and successfully dialed 911.

That is how police arrived and encountered Dortch in the second-floor hallway.

Officer Lawrence Leissner was one of the first responding cops at the scene, police said. Dortch fired at him from behind a door and Leissner returned fire five times, said Chief Inspector William Colarulo.

Lt. Riehl said the medical examiner's office determined that Dortch had died of "multiple gunshot wounds." It appeared that one or more bullets, believed to have been fired by Leissner, hit Dortch on his left side, police said.

But Dortch had run into a nearby office and shot himself in the head, which is believed to be the fatal shot, Colarulo said.

Police later found Dortch lying flat on his back on the office floor, shot dead. A .40-caliber Glock was found on a nearby couch.

"He may have saved other lives," Ross said yesterday of Leissner's actions. Officers found the other two men unharmed but bound with duct tape in a back office, police said.

Meanwhile, police were left shaking their heads over the bloodshed.

Said Ross: "You've got seven children that will never see their father again."

C-4  [Team Member]
2/15/2007 11:00:07 PM

Originally Posted By BC28:
AK Pistol or AK Rifle w/ folding stock??? See bold text below... either the media or cops don't know what they are looking at.




My guess is it's an underfolder that they mistook for a pistol.
arowneragain  [Member]
2/15/2007 11:01:10 PM

Originally Posted By C-4:

Originally Posted By BC28:
AK Pistol or AK Rifle w/ folding stock??? See bold text below... either the media or cops don't know what they are looking at.




My guess is it's an underfolder that they mistook for a pistol.


That was my first thought.

falaholic1  [Member]
2/16/2007 6:05:04 AM
I've wanted an AK pistol with Krink brake for a while

82ndAbn  [Site Staff]
2/16/2007 6:06:57 AM

Originally Posted By NonConformist:
You could have done more with the same amount of time it took you to start this thread by writing a letter to your representative


You're right about that!
Freeside  [Member]
2/16/2007 8:23:00 AM

Meanwhile, police were left shaking their heads over the bloodshed.


Why is this always an obligatory statement in every news article where somebody goes off like this? I don't want to defend mass murderers, but damn, could we dig a little deeper and find out what pissed this dude off so much that he executed these people? It was a very targeted killing. Maybe they were reaping the whirlwind here just a little bit? It reminds me a little of that daytrader shooting in Atlanta. Now daytrading is idiotic and people should have known better, but greedy assholes always make foolish investment practices look profitable, it's part of the scam and always has been.

Moral of the story: If you're going to be greedy and screw people over, you had better spend some of your hard stolen money on armed security.



ShamusMcOI  [Team Member]
2/16/2007 8:39:06 AM
another vote for just getting an SBR instead.................
Coolio  [Member]
2/16/2007 8:49:21 AM

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

Originally Posted By C-4:

Originally Posted By BC28:
AK Pistol or AK Rifle w/ folding stock??? See bold text below... either the media or cops don't know what they are looking at.




My guess is it's an underfolder that they mistook for a pistol.


That was my first thought.



There's no way to tell without pics.
These reports are notoriously bad when it comes to firearm I.D.s. Even the Philly cops routinely refer to their own Glock 17s as "service revolvers".