AR15.Com Archives
 Bullet-Resistant glass for HUMVEEs?
clasky  [Member]
3/6/2006 1:48:18 PM
I'll admit, my unit didn't work a lot with armed Jeeps and Humvees. But, I'm seeing a lot of them used in Iraq right now with turret positions for gunners that seem very open. So here's the question (keep in mind my ignorance of this application): Why do they not use some type of shield akin to those that were on mounted automatic weapons during WWII, only make them out of transparent bullet resistant glass rather than steel? This seems like it would not only protect the gunner from rifle rounds and shrapnel, but also afford him/her a clear view. These materials already exist and are used extensively in US Embassies and Government buildings. Is it a cost thing, or is there some other tactical aspect I am overlooking? Thanks.
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Goonboss  [Team Member]
3/6/2006 1:52:15 PM
The turrets are open, but, what they were before was NOTHING protecting
them. In WWII halftracks and things did have gunshields. Jeeps didn't,
but just about everything else did. Same in 'nam.

As far as the glass issue, I dunno....There has to be some reason...I'd assume heat
resistance or structural integrity after a few hits.
bastiat  [Member]
3/6/2006 1:55:24 PM
Maybe they could use the new transparent aluminum for that.
clasky  [Member]
3/6/2006 1:55:52 PM
The structural integrity thing makes sense, but I would think that framing it somehow would help. I saw something on the discovery channel about how embassy glass can take multiple 7.62x54 hits without breaking. Also, wouldn't the glass offer at least some protection from IEDs?
TrOoPeRcHiN_  [Team Member]
3/6/2006 1:57:29 PM

Originally Posted By bastiat:
Maybe they could use the new transparent aluminum for that.


?????????
bastiat  [Member]
3/6/2006 1:59:51 PM

Originally Posted By TrOoPeRcHiN_:

Originally Posted By bastiat:
Maybe they could use the new transparent aluminum for that.


?????????



http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123012131

Brief Excerpt:


10/17/2005 - WRIGHT-PATTERSON AIR FORCE BASE, Ohio (AFPN) -- Engineers here are testing a new kind of transparent armor -- stronger and lighter than traditional materials -- that could stop armor-piercing weapons from penetrating vehicle windows.

The Air Force Research Laboratory's materials and manufacturing directorate is testing aluminum oxynitride -- ALONtm -- as a replacement for the traditional multi-layered glass transparencies now used in existing ground and air armored vehicles.



ETA: Transparent Aluminum can stop AP .50 BMG with half the thickness and weight of comparable bullet resistant glass.

Stottman  [Team Member]
3/6/2006 2:00:57 PM
Probably the weight.. Steel seems to way less then the bullet resistant glass used in UpArmored Hummers..That might not actually be the case, but it seems that way.

The same windows will stop a .50 cal at close range though....My unit tested a cracked one at a MG range...


Shadowsabre  [Member]
3/6/2006 2:25:35 PM
The current glass used in the door windows is over 2 inches thick to stop a .30 cal projectile.
It weighs alot.
It is hard to work with.
It is brittle.
It is like looking thru a fish bowl.

If you took a hit, it would spider web and you wouldn't be able to see thru it anyway.
The added weight is a big factor and cost is also a driving issue.
Budget, ya know.
888  [Member]
3/6/2006 2:36:53 PM

Originally Posted By clasky:
.... Is it a cost thing, or is there some other tactical aspect I am overlooking? Thanks.



Most likely, it'll drive up the cost to up armor the truck, when you consider the basic AMG armored windshield (AMG part # 12339424-3) cost around $300 that is only a buck fifty over the standard glass, steel is more cost effective, imho.

Cincinnatus  [Member]
3/6/2006 2:45:59 PM
I saw more than a few Humvees with glass installed in the turrets.
I prefer the more open turrets (not the round green ones).

fight4yourrights  [Team Member]
3/6/2006 2:48:59 PM
Weight.



THey do make them, I've seen them at tradeshows
tayous1  [Team Member]
3/6/2006 3:05:39 PM

Originally Posted By clasky:
I'll admit, my unit didn't work a lot with armed Jeeps and Humvees. But, I'm seeing a lot of them used in Iraq right now with turret positions for gunners that seem very open. So here's the question (keep in mind my ignorance of this application): Why do they not use some type of shield akin to those that were on mounted automatic weapons during WWII, only make them out of transparent bullet resistant glass rather than steel? This seems like it would not only protect the gunner from rifle rounds and shrapnel, but also afford him/her a clear view. These materials already exist and are used extensively in US Embassies and Government buildings. Is it a cost thing, or is there some other tactical aspect I am overlooking? Thanks.



COST my plt was hit with about 45 IEDs in Iraq and we had 5 shots taken at the gunners. It would be nice to place them on the turrets. Also the weight a front window that has the bullet resistant glass weighed around 50+lbs. But the bullet resistant glass worked for us and I have a lot of photos of humvees ater the where hit by IEDs. Just need to find a place so I can download them and place them on this site.
Gunplay  [Team Member]
3/6/2006 3:16:05 PM

Originally Posted By bastiat:

Originally Posted By TrOoPeRcHiN_:

Originally Posted By bastiat:
Maybe they could use the new transparent aluminum for that.


?????????



http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123012131

Brief Excerpt:


10/17/2005 - WRIGHT-PATTERSON AIR FORCE BASE, Ohio (AFPN) -- Engineers here are testing a new kind of transparent armor -- stronger and lighter than traditional materials -- that could stop armor-piercing weapons from penetrating vehicle windows.

The Air Force Research Laboratory's materials and manufacturing directorate is testing aluminum oxynitride -- ALONtm -- as a replacement for the traditional multi-layered glass transparencies now used in existing ground and air armored vehicles.



ETA: Transparent Aluminum can stop AP .50 BMG with half the thickness and weight of comparable bullet resistant glass.




+1 that would be sweet.
g136653  [Team Member]
3/6/2006 3:50:19 PM

Originally Posted By clasky:
Why do they not use some type of shield akin to those that were on mounted automatic weapons during WWII, only make them out of transparent bullet resistant glass rather than steel?



You are riding down the road with your way cool bitchin glass shield. An IED goes off. What would have been deflected by steel or ceramic causes the glass to shatter driving thousands of tiny razor sharp shards of glass into your body.

If you had caught steel shrapnel they could see them on Xray for removal, but instead, they used glass, so no Xray for you. If they has used steel they might have been able to use a real strong magnet to get the fragments out of your eyes and skin but they used glass, no magnet for you. If they had used steel your body could have eventually treated that foreign body inside your skin and muscle by dissolving it away but they used glass, so permanent razor embedded in your body by the thousands for you.

You can't shoot through the glass any more than you can the steel, which means you have to stick your body up there anyway, so no advantage to glass.
ajm1911  [Team Member]
3/6/2006 3:58:14 PM
The issue isn't the glass gunners shield it is the side shields, some companies make glass sides and backs to the turret and some are manufactured in theater. The problem is that the ballistic glass is not like steel in that once struck it becomes less resistant and you can't see through it as it spiderwebs.
The glass is good for observation but give me steel to protect me.
tayous1  [Team Member]
3/7/2006 2:00:06 AM


Humvee front window it got hit by a VBIED



Same humvee



Same humvee




Sniper shot at me but hit the window. Yes I gave that window a kiss
weptek911  [Team Member]
3/7/2006 8:23:18 AM

Originally Posted By tayous1:


Sniper shot at me but hit the window. Yes I gave that window a kiss



Thank you for your service to our country. I am in awe of all our troops . I don't care if you were a commando or a truck driver. It brings a tear to my eye everytime I see what our people go through.

//Sorry for the attempted hijack, but those pictures are incredible.
// Thanks to our armor designers too.
Kharn  [Team Member]
3/7/2006 8:27:00 AM

Why bother with a new gunner shield when a remote-controlled CROWS fits up there? (all info available from public sources)

Kharn
tayous1  [Team Member]
3/7/2006 5:26:21 PM

Originally Posted By Kharn:
www.pica.army.mil/PicatinnyPublic/images/warfighter/CROWS2.jpg
Why bother with a new gunner shield when a remote-controlled CROWS fits up there? (all info available from public sources)

Kharn



We used one of them in two places with are 240G. One place was on top of a Humvee the other was on top of a building. The problem we had with them is all we could get off was a 3 to 6 round burst without it jamming or the system stoped working. I do like them if they made it work. My guess is the Army has gotton them to work better then we did. We took ares down and placed an 0331 on the guns and they worked every time
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