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 If You Thought That Mother Was An Irish Traveller....
EricTheHun  [Team Member]
9/23/2002 1:46:32 AM
...you were right on the money! "Toogood, who said she is an [b]Irish traveler[/b] who currently lives in Mishawaka but moves from place to place looking for work, reiterated her feelings that her daughter should at least be allowed to live with her husband or another family member." From the article at: [url]http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=519&ncid=716&e=6&u=/ap/20020923/ap_on_re_us/videotaped_beating[/url] See this recent thread: [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=145096&w=searchPop[/url] BTW, did you notice her change of hair color? She wasn't planning on making a run, now, was she? Blonde in the videotape, brunette when she turns herself in? Eric The(Suspicious)Hun[>]:)]
jrzy  [Team Member]
9/23/2002 2:06:50 AM
Hey Eric,good post,now check your damn e-mail and get over there and help,lOL
BobCole  [Team Member]
9/23/2002 2:13:28 AM
Other than sheer stupidity, how come the media hasn't mentioned it yet?
SeaDweller  [Member]
9/23/2002 2:15:04 AM
[quote]Originally Posted By BobCole: Other than sheer stupidity, how come the media hasn't mentioned it yet?[/quote] I saw the story in print today but no mention of her "traveller" heritage. Guess they are stupid.
raven  [Team Member]
9/23/2002 2:15:10 AM
Yeah, the sudden dye job was interesting. Husband's in the "paving" business, too. All the stereotypes are there. I bet they're well-freaked their kid was put in the care of non-Travellers who probably have a very different value system from their own. The kid's young and won't be in foster care long though.
TacticalPenguin  [Team Member]
9/23/2002 2:17:31 AM
By travelers do you possibly mean the Romani? Just curious....
Goad  [Member]
9/23/2002 2:18:32 AM
[quote]Originally Posted By EricTheHun: ...you were right on the money! "Toogood, who said she is an [b]Irish traveler[/b] Eric The(Suspicious)Hun[>]:)][/quote] I saw the parking lot video and I never believed the mother was actually hurting her child. Many soft blows that don't actually damage flesh vs. real abuse, sexual or vicious in nature. Truth is such pseudo corporal punishment happened in my family, to me and my siblings, and we were never damaged in any physical way. I am relieved that no physical damage was found done to the small girl by her mother, but not surprised. I am against the "nanny state" generally and feel that the tendency of the "nanny state" is to abuse power. Unless there is proof beyond a doubt that the girl is abused the young girl should be returned to her family posthaste. The issue of her family's roots in crime or otherwise nonconformist status is secondary to the right of the family to be together. I realize this is controversial, but hey, I am that kind of dude, Dudes (and Dudettes). "Family First Goad"
raven  [Team Member]
9/23/2002 2:21:28 AM
They're a different ethnicity. The Romani would roam around Europe, the Travellers were Celts in Ireland. But they seem to have the same characteristics. Real insular tightknit families, limited education, their own tongue. Apparently there are a lot of Romani gypsies in Texas, as well as Irish Travellers. Didn't know that.
EricTheHun  [Team Member]
9/23/2002 2:30:09 AM
[quote]Originally Posted By jrzy: Hey Eric,good post,now check your damn e-mail and get over there and help,lOL[/quote] What e-mail? I checked ericthehun@hotmail.com and there's nothing about.... Eric The(BTW,Thanks)Hun[>]:)]
TacticalPenguin  [Team Member]
9/23/2002 2:31:45 AM
Thanks Raven, I know my family is descended from Romani, but also from , how was it my Grandmother put it... Irish Vagabonds..... Those are the not talked about ancestors.... [:D] I just wasn't sure that they were in fact different really
EricTheHun  [Team Member]
9/23/2002 2:36:11 AM
Post from Goad - [quote]I saw the parking lot video and I never believed the mother was actually hurting her child.[/quote] In her post-release interview, the mother cried and was very apologetic about what she had done to her child. So she believes that she acted inappropriately. That's pretty convincing as a admission of guilt. It was very telling how the mother looked around first, before she began beating the child. So she knew that what she was about to do, and did, was not something she wanted anyone to witness. Eric The(She'sAdmittedHerGuilt)Hun[>]:)]
Jarhead_22  [Team Member]
9/23/2002 2:38:52 AM
I'd like to offer that mother a deal to stay out of prison: She can walk away free if she'll take a beating from me of the same duration as that which she gave to her daughter. I don't even outweigh her by as much as she outweighs her daughter. I think it's a bargain.
Goad  [Member]
9/23/2002 2:56:57 AM
[quote]Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Post from Goad - [quote]I saw the parking lot video and I never believed the mother was actually hurting her child.[/quote] In her post-release interview, the mother cried and was very apologetic about what she had done to her child. So she believes that she acted inappropriately. That's pretty convincing as a admission of guilt. Eric The(She'sAdmittedHerGuilt)Hun[>]:)][/quote] I realize my statements are controversial. The video does look bad, especially if you feel her blows were doing damage. Somehow I saw that the blows were soft, and it appears I was correct. If her blows were soft it is all the difference in the world. If the blows were soft the child knew she was not being hurt... I do not attempt any defense of the mother. That is a legal matter. The video looks bad. The mother wants her child back. She is doing the correct things to get her child returned. How can anyone judge her harshly for this? Personally, I would judge her harshly if she was acting any differently. "I am not judge and jury Goad"
MIerinMD  [Member]
9/23/2002 6:14:35 AM
[quote]Originally Posted By EricTheHun: ...you were right on the money! "Toogood, who said she is an [b]Irish traveler[/b] who currently lives in Mishawaka but moves from place to place looking for work, reiterated her feelings that her daughter should at least be allowed to live with her husband or another family member." From the article at: [url]http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=519&ncid=716&e=6&u=/ap/20020923/ap_on_re_us/videotaped_beating[/url] See this recent thread: [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=145096&w=searchPop[/url] BTW, did you notice her change of hair color? She wasn't planning on making a run, now, was she? Blonde in the videotape, brunette when she turns herself in? Eric The(Suspicious)Hun[>]:)][/quote] What is an "Irish Traveller?" I am about as Irish as an American can be and still not need a green card, yet I have never heard this term. Is this just a anti-Irish term for a migratory worker, or a real, actual ethnic/social group? My significant other and I also noticed she changed her hair color. She clearly intended to haul ass. I suspect that the reason she turned herself in is that it was probably safer for her in custody than to possibly meet up with some vigilante justice.
RBAD  [Team Member]
9/23/2002 6:21:45 AM
[quote]Originally Posted By EricTheHun: BTW, did you notice her change of hair color? She wasn't planning on making a run, now, was she? Blonde in the videotape, brunette when she turns herself in? [/quote] Yup... Eric The (TooGoodToBeTrue) Hun. [:D]
SeaDweller  [Member]
9/23/2002 6:26:23 AM
[quote]Originally Posted By MIerinMD: [quote]Originally Posted By EricTheHun: ...you were right on the money! "Toogood, who said she is an [b]Irish traveler[/b] who currently lives in Mishawaka but moves from place to place looking for work, reiterated her feelings that her daughter should at least be allowed to live with her husband or another family member." From the article at: [url]http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=519&ncid=716&e=6&u=/ap/20020923/ap_on_re_us/videotaped_beating[/url] See this recent thread: [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=145096&w=searchPop[/url] BTW, did you notice her change of hair color? She wasn't planning on making a run, now, was she? Blonde in the videotape, brunette when she turns herself in? Eric The(Suspicious)Hun[>]:)][/quote] What is an "Irish Traveller?" I am about as Irish as an American can be and still not need a green card, yet I have never heard this term. Is this just a anti-Irish term for a migratory worker, or a real, actual ethnic/social group? My significant other and I also noticed she changed her hair color. She clearly intended to haul ass. I suspect that the reason she turned herself in is that it was probably safer for her in custody than to possibly meet up with some vigilante justice.[/quote] An Irish traveller is equivalent to a gypsy. All they do is go around scamming people and businesses. They usually breed among their little circle like the gypsies do. That's why they all look the same. We would all be better off without people like this on the planet.
5subslr5  [Team Member]
9/23/2002 6:34:17 AM
[quote]Originally Posted By raven: They're a different ethnicity. The Romani would roam around Europe, the Travellers were Celts in Ireland. But they seem to have the same characteristics. Real insular tightknit families, limited education, their own tongue. Apparently there are a lot of Romani gypsies in Texas, as well as Irish Travellers. Didn't know that.[/quote] BIG group of the "Travellers" around Aiken, SC too.
raven  [Team Member]
9/23/2002 6:34:18 AM
[quote]Originally Posted By MIerinMD: What is an "Irish Traveller?" I am about as Irish as an American can be and still not need a green card, yet I have never heard this term. Is this just a anti-Irish term for a migratory worker, or a real, actual ethnic/social group? [/quote] I've been reading up on them. They are different from regular Irish immigrants, who clustered in places like New York and Boston and integrated into American society. Irish Travellers were nomads and gypsies in Ireland. Ethnically they're Celts, religious affiliation is Catholic. They were called tinkers because they were mainly metalsmiths by trade. It isn't exclusively an Irish thang, as there are English, Welsh, and Scottish "Travellers" too. It's more a subcultural lifestyle with a predatory and clannish value system. In America, they did metalwork and traded horses and mules as well. They settled mainly in South Carolina, Memphis, and Texas. They spend their winters in their lavish homes, and spend the other 3 seasons travelling around the country as "itinerant laborers". The Traveller/gypsy websites say they are honest people besmirched by the prejudice of normal people over a few bad apples who run scams and frauds. Many anti fraud, anti-scam info sites have pages dedicated to the Travellers though. And this chick in Indiana fits right into the stereotype as well. They are insular and only socialize and marry with other Travellers and gypsies. They only educate themselves to the point of literacy and arithmetic. Very interesting subculture.
natez  [Member]
9/23/2002 6:36:48 AM
[quote]Originally Posted By MIerinMD: What is an "Irish Traveller?" I am about as Irish as an American can be and still not need a green card, yet I have never heard this term. Is this just a anti-Irish term for a migratory worker, or a real, actual ethnic/social group?[/quote] This is a term for group of folks who travel around the country scamming other people. They are particularly fond of construction scams. Most in LE just call them travellers, because Gypsy means a certain ethnicity (which doesn't always apply) and Irish implies that they are, well, Irish, which isn't always the case. They particularlyl target the elderly. And while the men are doing that, the women shoplift (which I wouldn't be surprised if that is what the mother was doing while at Kohl's).
5subslr5  [Team Member]
9/23/2002 6:43:47 AM
One of their rules is to commit NO offenses in the areas where they live. They operate sort of like carnival folks - winter at home and then scam the rest of the year in different geographic areas. Edited to add: The Travellers seem to also break down into sub groups. One of the groups still 'arranges' marriages while others do not.
MIerinMD  [Member]
9/23/2002 7:22:04 AM
Who says this isn't an educational site! Thanks for the reponses, guys. How bizzare that my Grandparents never mentioned these people. They were pretty big on instilling Irish culture and pride. Probably because these people don't help the Irish stereotype. To paraphrase somebody (I think it was Pat Moynahan) "To be Irish is to know that the world will someday break your heart" Geez.
EricTheHun  [Team Member]
9/23/2002 7:55:32 AM
When the Irish Travellers settled in the South, they were often referred to as 'Georgia horse traders', for that is how they made their living. Now it home siding and driveway paving, and the like. It's not mentioned in the article, but there was an active arrest warrant for shoplifting from Tarrant County on the mother. That's another specialty of the Travellers, shoplifting. Here, the mother attempted to return two pairs of blue jeans for 'cash' and was refused. That is why the store employees were interested enough in her to continue their surveillance of her into the parking lot. I believe that the sister that was arrested later that day was picked up for shoplifting. It's amazing how much is not being reported in this story. About four years ago, there were six teenagers killed in a pickup accident in Fort Worth, Texas. It was a single car accident in which the 16 year old driving lost control of his speeding pickup, and rolled it. There were five teenagers in the vehicle when it flipped and all of them died. The 16 year old had no drivers license and he was the [u]oldest[/u] of the group. Just watch the movie 'The Traveller' with Bill Paxton and Mark Wahlberg, or 'King of the Gypsies' with Eric Roberts. You'll get to know another slice of Americana that you probably never knew existed. Eric The(Strange)Hun[>]:)]
Kar98  [Member]
9/23/2002 8:04:52 AM
[quote]Originally Posted By raven: They only educate themselves to the point of literacy and arithmetic. [/quote] Take that plus the "business skills" they are taught, and their system already has the public education system beaten. ;)
chechatonga  [Member]
9/23/2002 8:06:47 AM
The travlers are not a nice bunch of people, if you are not one of them they will screw you bad, they love to work the older folks, and take them for money bad, they also love to flood a store and rip it off in the confusion they create, they are scum, and so is this woman who beat her kid, they are actors and practice acting frequently, as she was doing for the cameras by crying and such. I hope she gets her due.
Pangea  [Member]
9/23/2002 8:06:57 AM
If you watched the whole video you will see the mother striking the child with about 6 closed fist punches to the face. This has not been shown on TV much but was played several times when the video first came out. That is child abuse and not "soft blow" punishment. That cunt needs a bit of "time out" at the expense of the state.
shamayim  [Member]
9/23/2002 8:18:00 AM
If MIerin will check out some collections of Irish folk music, he'll probably find a number of songs about "The Tinkers" as for example: Me father was hung for sheep stealin Me mother was burned for a witch Me sister's a Dublin street walker And I'm an old son of a bitch etc,etc [:D]
EricTheHun  [Team Member]
9/23/2002 8:23:01 AM
Here's the story, as told by the Fort Worth Star Telegram: [size=4]Beating suspect: 'I'm not a monster'[/size=4] Melody Mcdonald, Star-Telegram Staff Writer Standing outside the county jail in South Bend, Ind., a Fort Worth-based Irish Traveller tearfully proclaimed that she is "not a monster" despite the videotaped image of her slapping and punching her 4-year-old daughter. Freed on bail Saturday after surrendering to authorities, Madelyne Toogood, 25, broke down during a nationally televised news conference over the loss of her daughter, who has temporarily been placed with foster parents. "They shouldn't have taken her," Toogood cried, referring to Child Protective Services. "They shouldn't have did this. ... I'm not a monster." With her hair changed from blond to brown since the day she was captured on videotape outside a department store, Toogood said her little girl shouldn't be punished for her mistake. "No one has the right to strike a child," Toogood said. "I'm paying for it. My entire family is paying for it. "Martha is my child. I think she is wonderful. ... I would lay my life down for her." Toogood, also known as Madelyne Gorman, surrendered to authorities about 4:30 p.m. Saturday. She arrived at the Mishawaka, Ind., police station in a convoy of vehicles that carried her Houston-based attorney Steven Rocket Rosen and her daughter. Authorities said the child was being examined by a doctor and appeared to be in good condition. The child "is a neat human being and seems to be fine," Christopher Toth, the prosecuting attorney of St. Joseph County, said Saturday in a press conference. Authorities said Toogood, who cooperated with investigators during an interview, was booked into the county jail and released after posting $5,000 bail. Prosecutors had initially requested a $50,000 bond because of her transient history. Officials said Child Protective Services will temporarily place the child with another family, a decision that clearly upset Toogood. The woman told reporters that she has been a mother since she was 19 and has three children, and that nothing like this has "ever happened before." She said she has 50 family members, many of whom have permanent residences, who could care for her child. Her attorney also criticized the girl's temporary placement with another family, saying that the Toogood family was tight-knit and traumatized by the decision. "To me, this is very detrimental, very psychologically detrimental, bordering on abusive," Rosen said. He said his client was angry because her child had misbehaved in the department store, but said he would not defend the attack. "It's clear here the young lady lost her temper," he said. "I'm not here to say she's not guilty. ... She committed a shameful act. She shall be punished." Indiana authorities issued an arrest warrant Friday afternoon for Toogood after charging her with battery of a child, a felony punishable by up to three years in prison. Authorities had been searching for Toogood and her daughter since Sept. 13, when the mother was captured on a videotape outside a Kohl's department store in Mishawaka. In the video, Toogood is seen placing her daughter in a sport utility vehicle, then slapping, punching and shaking the girl for several seconds. The episode occurred after the woman left the store angry over being refused a cash refund, authorities said. Authorities feared that the child might have been seriously injured, but they were unable to locate her or her mother. On Wednesday, the Mishawaka Police Department began distributing copies of the tape to the media, asking for the public's help in finding her. Toogood's sister, 31-year-old Margaret Daley, who authorities say was with her at the store, was arrested and charged with a misdemeanor count of failure to report child abuse and a felony count of assisting a criminal. She was released Friday after posting $2,150 bail. [b]Toogood and Daley are affiliated with an Irish Traveller group in Texas known as the Greenhorn Carrolls, a close-knit family that often spends the winters at campgrounds in White Settlement, Fort Worth and Haltom City.[/b] During the summer, the group travels north seeking temporary work, such as asphalt paving, roofing and painting. While the men work, the women often frequent malls, beauty salons and tanning salons. Law enforcement authorities say that some Irish Travellers are experienced con artists, but that many are law-abiding citizens. Joe Livingston, a South Carolina-based expert on Travellers, said many are masters of "illusion and confusion," often obtaining fictitious driver's licenses and identification cards and using multiple home addresses. [b]Toogood -- who under both names has identification cards and driver's licenses from numerous states, and several addresses in Fort Worth and elsewhere -- has warrants out for her arrest in Fort Worth and White Settlement.[/b] White Settlement issued a warrant on April 9 after she failed to pay a $202 traffic ticket for having no driver's license. In May, Fort Worth police issued another warrant for her arrest after she failed to appear in court to face theft charges stemming from a March 27 incident at a Kohl's store here. Dirk Moore, a Texas member of the National Association of Bunco Investigators who has investigated the Travellers for 12 years, said Saturday that he was surprised that Toogood surrendered. "I figured she would disappear, and someone would find her in five or six years when they ran her fingerprints," Moore said. "I'm surprised she turned herself in, and I'm surprised she brought the little girl with her." Moore said he was not surprised, however, that she sought out a prominent attorney to help her. "That is not a surprise," he said. "Most Travellers are fairly wealthy, and it is not uncommon for them to hire prominent attorneys to handle major cases -- and ones that have been successful in defending their clients. "They are able to afford the best." This article contains material from the Associated Press. [url]http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/4127679.htm[/url] Eric The('CloseKnitFamily'IsAGrossUnderstatement)Hun[>]:)]
MIerinMD  [Member]
9/23/2002 8:36:44 AM
[quote]Originally Posted By shamayim: If MIerin will check out some collections of Irish folk music, he'll probably find a number of songs about "The Tinkers" as for example: Me father was hung for sheep stealin Me mother was burned for a witch Me sister's a Dublin street walker And I'm an old son of a bitch etc,etc [:D] [/quote] shamayim: By the lyrics, that song could be about "ANY" Irishman, not just a Traveller! [;)] Seriously, I hate to see crap like this associated with the Irish people. While I understand other ethnicities do it as well, the Irish people don't need THIS to be added to our long list of negative stereotypes. I think Jarhead22 has a good idea. Her punishment should be to be forced to sit in a car seat while someone of greater size layed the heavy down on her. After 6 or 7 closed fist punches, she'd get the idea that it isn't fun to be hit.
shamayim  [Member]
9/23/2002 8:52:46 AM
Calm down man. I was raised with the Irish, my dad plyed tenor banjo with an Irish dance band, I learned "The Soldier's Song", Ireland's national anthem, before I was 10 years old, and for several years I was considered the best Irish folk singer in Atlanta (until, thankfully, some real Irishmen from the "auld sod" came to town).[:D] Probably should have mentioned in the first post that the title of the song is "The Tinker", and subsequent verses make it quite clear that the singer is a "gypsy".
9divdoc  [Team Member]
9/23/2002 8:55:45 AM
Irish gypsies.. Big family name.. Blythe As in William Jefferson Blythe-Clinton.. Billy boys poppa was a descendant of the Irish Travelers...a natural born con-art teest gypsies tramps and theives.. [url]http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/755009/posts[/url]
Jim_Dandy  [Member]
9/23/2002 9:08:12 AM
Everyone keeps asking how these shitbirds can afford high-dollar homes and automobiles. Another one of the "traveler" cons are elaborately planned lawsuits/extortion schemes. One of the pieces on 20/20 a few years ago featured a detailed multi-million dollar lawsuit against Walt Disney World in Florida where a young woman claimed she was raped. She sets the thing up by first having sex with a guy. Next, her brother dresses in a vampire costume (it was Halloween) and makes himself conspicuously present to the staff of the motel at Epcot. The "rape" victim then has her brother and sister beat the dog snot out of her in her motel room (they were all in on it). After the beating, this gal calls the cops and reports being raped by a guy in a vampire costume. After the police investigation, she threatens Disney with a lawsuit and they freak out and issue a couple of million dollars in a settlement to keep the whole thing out of the news (bad for business). This little scam would've never been discovered had the "rape" victim and her brother not tried to cut the other sister out of her "share" of the settlement. She got pissed off and went to the authorities. I think they're extremely sinister to say the least. I had my own encounter with these scum about four years ago. This little asshole was trying to pass himself off as a student at a local middle school when he came to my [b][i]back[/i][/b] door under the pretense of selling some trinkets for a school fundraiser (no school name, no group, had tattos on his hands, and on and on). These shitheads were part of a home improvement/burglary scam that was occurring locally. I can only speculate that he was trying to gain entrance to my home to case it for a later date. Just pure evil.
LWilde  [Team Member]
9/23/2002 9:12:03 AM
[quote]Originally Posted By Jarhead_22: I'd like to offer that mother a deal to stay out of prison: She can walk away free if she'll take a beating from me of the same duration as that which she gave to her daughter. I don't even outweigh her by as much as she outweighs her daughter. I think it's a bargain.[/quote] I was thinking the same thing. I'll just bet that her old man does her like that too. BITCH! [PISSED]
chechatonga  [Member]
9/23/2002 9:44:44 AM
If any Law Enforcement Auth. said most travelers were ok, he is full of bullshit and trying to avoid a legal nightmare that he fears they would cause him, if they are a traveler, they are a con of the lowest sort, let us not confuse the Irish vs the Irish traveler, the travelers are criminals.
marvl  [Member]
9/23/2002 9:48:41 AM
Do the Irish Travelers sell insurance? [rolleyes]
norman74  [Member]
9/23/2002 10:02:30 AM
The simple fact that she is known by more than one name should clue anyone in to the fact that she's not on the up-an-up. I can't think of anyone who's an upstanding citizen that has more than one alias. Also, shouldn't the multiple ID's be cause for more charges against her? Hopefully this entire thing will bring this traveller bullshit out in the mainstream American's mind. This is why LE needs to pay more attention. She was picked up for no DL and had a bench warrant out for not paying the ticket. ATTENTION ALL LEO'S: WHEN YOU STOP SOMEONE WHO HAS NO LICENSE, NO ID, AND NO RECORD OF EVER HAVING ONE, THEY ARE A PIECE OF SHIT, UP TO NO GOOD, AND SHOULD EARN THE RIGHT TO AT LEAST ONE NIGHT IN THE POKEY WHILE YOU LOOK INTO THEIR STORY.
satcong  [Member]
9/23/2002 10:33:06 AM
[img]http://www.foxnews.com/images/66691/4_2_092302_madelyne_toogood.jpg[/img] Is that the face of a kid beater? [:O]
EricTheHun  [Team Member]
9/23/2002 10:35:23 AM
[img]http://www.foxnews.com/images/66691/4_2_092302_madelyne_toogood.jpg[/img] [b]Apparently![/b] Eric The('Admittedly',Even!)Hun[>]:)]
MadProfessor  [Member]
9/23/2002 10:49:17 AM
"Toogood told reporters Sunday she hit her daughter, Martha, in the head and back and pulled her hair — but did not punch her. " The difference being.......
Garand_Shooter  [Team Member]
9/23/2002 12:45:20 PM
I regulary drive throuth the area they live in North Augusta SC.... it's something to see. Real fancy house, fancy to the point of being gaudy, with mobile homes in the front yard and windows covered in tinfoil sometimes. I was driving through one time and one large house had about 50 pickups in the yard, must have been a big meeting of the men. I stopped at waffle house to eat and evidently all the women were meeting there.... all the sudden the place was overrun by 60-70 women and girls, all with beehive hairdoes n,d sequin dresses, and the young girls 8-10 years old had just as much makeup as the older women. Wierd, really wierd. Take a drive up Highway 25 just north of I-20 if your ever are in the area... you can't miss where they live.
Goad  [Member]
9/23/2002 2:23:18 PM
[quote]Originally Posted By Pangea: If you watched the whole video you will see the mother striking the child with about 6 closed fist punches to the face. [/quote] I did not see that and I may not have seen the whole video. I don't watch a whole lot of TV news. But I believe the proof of the pudding is in the tasting: The reports I have seen indicate there is zero, none, zip, no evidence of marks or trauma on the child. This may not matter to this group of moot jurors, but it means everything to me in respect to this case. [quote]Originally Posted By Pangea: That cunt needs a bit of "time out" at the expense of the state.[/quote] Yeah. The number of blows is a problem, no question. The video I saw was excruciating as it seemed to just continue with more punches. The mother is lucky if she has not traumatized the child. She needs help but she is not resisting and this should matter. Now it seems we here are addressing the issue of crime families. Our history is no prior restraint and tolerance in general. Clearly there are suggestions that the "Travelers" are unfit parents and should be eliminated as undesirable. I say this is racial - they are white - and if I had suggested that "Black Panthers" were hate in its essence and we must save their children by taking them away, that would lock a thread in a New York second. And if we moot jurors judge families so, what about Mormons? Should we not save those children? Muslim families? Jews? If children are not abused they are better off with their families. The pictures tend to prove abuse but when examined by medical professionals no traces of abuse were reported. A real beating should have left bruises, cracked and broken bones, scar tissue, open wounds on the inside of the mouth, torn cartilage about the nose, large areas of hair torn out by the roots... This is what a real beating leaves behind. The news reported no traces of this. Anyways, I guess I should have kept my "trap shut". These type of social problems are beyond the scope of discussion in a public forum and is not even gun related. So in the words of a famous, but almost forgoten TV charector from Saturday Night Live: "Never mind"
EricTheHun  [Team Member]
9/23/2002 2:37:46 PM
Post from Goad - [quote]I did not see that and I may not have seen the whole video.[/quote] Then you really, really do need to watch it. [quote]The reports I have seen indicate there is zero, none, zip, no evidence of marks or trauma on the child.[/quote] Reports? You've seen the medical reports? The reports from Child Protective Services? Where was this reported? And, insofar as there were no visible bruises, etc., to the child, remember the beating took place eight days before the surrender of the mother and child. Just enough time for the mother to die her hair and the bruises to heal, maybe? Eric The(ThinkAboutIt)Hun[>]:)]
IMHO  [Member]
9/23/2002 3:05:14 PM
I'm with ETH, it's really difficult to pass judgement without seeing the video clip. Must be something in our human nature that enrages us when we see something like this. Vicious. Don't mean to sidetrack the thread, but do want to say that although I've no experience with Irish Travelers, I do have lots with Czech and Central European Roma. Anyone who has travelled to the Prague, or to countless other Czech and European cities by train was exposed to them immediately after exiting the station. There are, among the Roma, amazingly talented thieves who managed to slip a watch off my wrist and get away with it, leaving me stunned at their ability to cause a distraction. The tiny children were in on the scam. I do consider myself to be lucky to have only this relatively minor, violence-free, loss. Every Czech has a more dramatic story. If anyone has started to research the Irish Travelers, I suggest a look at the history of Roma in the Czech Republic, and what has been considered to be institutionalized anti-Roma policy there. A difficult problem. You're familiar with the etymology of the word "gyp"? Again, don't mean to hijack the thread, and really don't want to perpetuate any negative stereotypes, just want to make a research suggestion.
Goad  [Member]
9/23/2002 3:18:32 PM
[quote]Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Post from Goad - [quote]I did not see that and I may not have seen the whole video.[/quote] Then you really, really do need to watch it. [quote]The reports I have seen indicate there is zero, none, zip, no evidence of marks or trauma on the child.[/quote] Reports? You've seen the medical reports? The reports from Child Protective Services? Where was this reported? And, insofar as there were no visible bruises, etc., to the child, remember the beating took place eight days before the surrender of the mother and child. Just enough time for the mother to die her hair and the bruises to heal, maybe? Eric The(ThinkAboutIt)Hun[>]:)][/quote] Naw, I won't watch that video. I found it excruciating the first time. But, the lack of reports about traces of physical trauma speaks to me. Maybe I am slightly less emotional than others. Or maybe I see this as an assault upon spanking in our culture by left wing radicals. Maybe I see this as counterproductive to maintaining our freedoms. Or for the sake of making an end, maybe not. Anyways, I already said "Never mind". I am done with this except that I will answer a post from "The Hun" or similar.
Jim_Dandy  [Member]
9/23/2002 3:23:21 PM
Guess [b]Goad[/b]'s never heard of shaken baby/shaken child. No bruises there.
EricTheHun  [Team Member]
9/23/2002 3:30:18 PM
I know that there are some that would love to take away the option of spanking a child when the issue is discipline. I would just hate to see what I must have looked like when I was paddling my daughter when she was a child. Even though I never ever used anything worse than a switch, if I could see the look on her face, as well as my own, while I was doing it, I might have a different opinion on switching, as well! The truth sometimes hurts. Eric The(IDon'tSpankMyGrandChildren,Ever!)Hun[>]:)]
IMHO  [Member]
9/23/2002 3:34:03 PM
[quote]Originally Posted By Jim_Dandy: Guess [b]Goad[/b]'s never heard of shaken baby/shaken child. No bruises there.[/quote] Not usually bruising or swelling with Nursemaid's elbow, either.
Goad  [Member]
9/23/2002 3:46:35 PM
[quote]Originally Posted By Jim_Dandy: Guess [b]Goad[/b]'s never heard of shaken baby/shaken child. No bruises there.[/quote] I've heard of it. I also suspect the medical professionals have heard of it. My information is that there is traces to be found. Like death, for instance. I can see I would not like the job of defending this woman or her family. I can think of a recent case of a black woman who locked her two young children inside her car in Southfield Michigan while she got her hair coifed. Two dead black children was the result. Where was this moot court then? This thread is tolerated because they are white, and now I am guilty by association. Jim_Dandy: Is an apostrophe used for "ha" omission from "has"? If you are going to insult my intelligence or lack of education please have the curtesy to do so in proper English rather than general English or slang. Thanks.
FiveO  [Member]
9/23/2002 3:47:11 PM
Goad, you said, "I never believed the mother was actually hurting her child." First of all, let me say that I have never flamed of cursed anyone on this board but I have to say that if you truly believe that, you sir, are a fucking idiot. You then stated, "Unless there is proof beyond a doubt that the girl is abused the young girl should be returned to her family posthaste." I do not know what state you are in but in the Heart of Dixie a videotape is considered proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Combine what you have already seen with the fact that the family was willing to secret her away and that should be all any sane person needs to know to determine that the child does not need to be with those people. The absence of physical bruises is NOT indicative of no injury and certainly not indicative that the girl was not harmed, read HURT. I investigate child physical and sexual abuse so I speak from years of sad experience. I assure you, I could beat you and cause extreme physical pain and you would not have external marks to demonstrate your injuries. I have seen dead kids autopsied and have seen HUGE subdermal AND subcranial hemorrhaging, fractures to skulls, ribs and longbones that were not visible from the surface. Add to that the violent shaking of the girl's head. While certainly not as susceptible as an infant, shaking such a young child's head is very dangerous and the effects it can have on the child could be dormant for years or it could simply prevent or stifle intellectual growth. I will not even go into the psychological damage that results from that kind of abuse. One thing that is very telling to me is the girl's reaction. IMHO and experience, if this were the first time the girl had been assaulted like this she would have dropped and covered or gone fetal as is often the natural instinct. She would not understand why her loving mother would so suddenly and violently attack her. Then fear and self protection would override all else. Because she was able to overcome all of that and get in her seat and such, I believe that this girl has seen those fists before. Of course mom checking her six speaks volumes as well. "How can anyone judge her harshly for this?" It is idiotic attitudes like this on juries that let child abusers go everyday. People want to know how the system fails these kids so often. In many cases it is because of people like Goad. This officer of the "nanny state" would gladly put that bitch in jail and put that child somewhere where she could thrive.
raven  [Team Member]
9/23/2002 3:50:31 PM
Hey FiveO, do you have any Irish Traveller stories to tell? Encounters with them?
Jim_Dandy  [Member]
9/23/2002 3:55:52 PM
[quote]My information is that there is traces to be found. Like death, for instance.[/quote] Traces will show up in an autopsy, but not on a living victim. [quote]Jim_Dandy: Is an apostrophe used for "ha" omission from "has"? If you are going to insult my intelligence or lack of education please have the curtesy[SIC] to do so in proper English rather than general English or slang. Thanks.[/quote] It is proper English. Perhaps you'd like me to go back and point out your numerous other grammatical errors.
FiveO  [Member]
9/23/2002 4:01:39 PM
Yes I have dealt with them, or I should say their aftermath as the case was... I do have to say that we had no info or reports about their kids other that the fact that they were with their parents while they were out doing their thing, if you consider that abuse, which, hey it could be... Neglect at least. We talked about it here: [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=145096&w=searchPop[/url] But I'll paste: We had a group come through here about 1 1/2 years ago. The men ran around doing "driveway sealing" like MoonDog mentioned, roofing repairs and a deal where they would BS old folks into thinking their house needed additional support underneath. They would carry all of this material into the crawlspace, bang around a while, carry most of it out and BAM, walk away with a cool grand or so. No work at all actually done to the home. The victims were the folks who were most vulnerable to scamming and the ones worst hurt by the financial hit. Really pissed me off. While the guys were out doing this (all in really nice, new dualies and crew cab type pick ups, BTW.) the women were all out passing counterfeit checks, shoplifting and even running some confidence games. It was wild, kept all of us Investigators scrambling I tell you, but they had disappeared before we got a handle on what was going on. I'd give a rough estimate of the monetary loss stemming from their 2 week stay at around $40-50K...