AR15.Com Archives
 .38 Super vs. .30 Carbine
M1AJAS  [Team Member]
9/20/2011 7:44:08 AM EST
I know Ruger at one time made the Blackhawk IIRC with a spare cylinder for .30 Carbine. That would have been a good sidearm for using my carbine. But my question is did anyone ever make a semi-auto in .30 Carbine. I think that would be a greate round even for self defense with the right bullet type.

So what does the hive think about that ?

Was there just too much pressure for an auto? The .38 Super has always been a favorite of mine and in fact I had a Colt back in the day but regretfully I sold It in time of need.
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david_g17  [Member]
9/20/2011 7:45:59 AM EST
Originally Posted By M1AJAS:
... But my question is did anyone ever make a semi-auto in .30 Carbine...


how long would the magwell/grip have to be? wouldn't it be too big to hold? (i don't have a .30 Carbine, so I don't know how long the cartridge is, but it looks pretty big)

or would this gun need to be shaped like a TEC-9?

Fat_McNasty  [Team Member]
9/20/2011 7:46:53 AM EST
yes AMT made one..
FunYun1983  [Team Member]
9/20/2011 7:47:07 AM EST
AMT Automag

lafmedic1  [Team Member]
9/20/2011 7:48:01 AM EST
THe Coonan should be able to do it?
Silver_Surfer  [Team Member]
9/20/2011 7:49:36 AM EST
Unless the super is loaded to IPSC?USPSA major PF the 30 would win. Why not just go 357sig?

Never mind, didn't understand the question
Forest  [Team Member]
9/20/2011 7:53:35 AM EST
Originally Posted By M1AJAS:
I know Ruger at one time made the Blackhawk IIRC with a spare cylinder for .30 Carbine.


Nope.

The Blackhawk came from the factory configured as a .30 Carbine handgun. No spare cylinders (indeed what would you swap with ?)

This one is mine:


I think that would be a greate round even for self defense with the right bullet type.

With the right bullet the .30 carbine is a fine Carbine round, it sucks for handguns. Thirty caliber bullets are generally designed around carbine velocities or higher (i.e. for .308), the few that are designed for handguns are very light (90gr or less) and tend not to penetrate enough. Muzzle blast is also excessive.

Sure they can be fun, and they shoot very flat so making 50yard hits on small targets is much easier than with other handguns, but as a defensive handgun round the .30 carbine (or 7.62x25 Tok) leave much to be desired.
Nick_Adams314  [Member]
9/20/2011 7:54:17 AM EST
Originally Posted By Silver_Surfer:
Unless the super is loaded to IPSC?USPSA major PF the 30 would win. Why not just go 357sig?




Hmmm... a .357 sig glock combined with a nice handy .357 sig carbine would be a pretty appealing little combo! I like that idea...

Wonder how hard it would be to convert a beretta storm .40 to .357 sig?
Just a barrel change maybe??

Mattl  [Member]
9/20/2011 7:55:12 AM EST
Wouldn't a .30 carbine auto be as big as a Desert Eagle? I've seen .30 carbine revolvers. Cant .30 carbine approach 2,000fps with enough barrel?
Fat_McNasty  [Team Member]
9/20/2011 7:56:20 AM EST
Originally Posted By Nick_Adams314:
Originally Posted By Silver_Surfer:
Unless the super is loaded to IPSC?USPSA major PF the 30 would win. Why not just go 357sig?




Hmmm... a .357 sig glock combined with a nice handy .357 sig carbine would be a pretty appealing little combo! I like that idea...

Wonder how hard it would be to convert a beretta storm .40 to .357 sig?
Just a barrel change maybe??



yes pretty much. just a barrel swap.
mjohn3006  [Team Member]
9/20/2011 7:57:17 AM EST
Originally Posted By Fat_McNasty:
Originally Posted By Nick_Adams314:
Originally Posted By Silver_Surfer:
Unless the super is loaded to IPSC?USPSA major PF the 30 would win. Why not just go 357sig?




Hmmm... a .357 sig glock combined with a nice handy .357 sig carbine would be a pretty appealing little combo! I like that idea...

Wonder how hard it would be to convert a beretta storm .40 to .357 sig?
Just a barrel change maybe??



yes pretty much. just a barrel swap.


I want a .30 carbine AR.

Oh...Wait...





Forest  [Team Member]
9/20/2011 7:59:30 AM EST
Originally Posted By Mattl:
Cant .30 carbine approach 2,000fps with enough barrel?


Specs for military loading of .30 Carbine using a 110gr bulleet is just under 2000fps from an 18" barrel.

The only way you're going to get 2K fps from a handgun is to use light 85gr 7.62x25 FMJ projectiles and you might still need to load the round 'hot'.
Silver_Surfer  [Team Member]
9/20/2011 7:59:46 AM EST
Originally Posted By Nick_Adams314:
Originally Posted By Silver_Surfer:
Unless the super is loaded to IPSC?USPSA major PF the 30 would win. Why not just go 357sig?




Hmmm... a .357 sig glock combined with a nice handy .357 sig carbine would be a pretty appealing little combo! I like that idea...

Wonder how hard it would be to convert a beretta storm .40 to .357 sig?
Just a barrel change maybe??



The glock & 1911 guys have done it but don't know about Beretta. If anyone could do it this guy can: www.olhasso.com/PS/index.htm
M1AJAS  [Team Member]
9/20/2011 8:12:28 AM EST
Originally Posted By Forest:
Originally Posted By M1AJAS:
I know Ruger at one time made the Blackhawk IIRC with a spare cylinder for .30 Carbine.


Nope.

The Blackhawk came from the factory configured as a .30 Carbine handgun. No spare cylinders (indeed what would you swap with ?)

This one is mine:
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb277/mdar15manager/Misc/IMG_0122.jpg

I think that would be a greate round even for self defense with the right bullet type.

With the right bullet the .30 carbine is a fine Carbine round, it sucks for handguns. Thirty caliber bullets are generally designed around carbine velocities or higher (i.e. for .308), the few that are designed for handguns are very light (90gr or less) and tend not to penetrate enough. Muzzle blast is also excessive.

Sure they can be fun, and they shoot very flat so making 50yard hits on small targets is much easier than with other handguns, but as a defensive handgun round the .30 carbine (or 7.62x25 Tok) leave much to be desired.


Yeh Forest I forgot about the Blackhawk coming from the factory in .30 carbine.

Nice gun ... Ilove the lokks of the Blackhawk.

Here's how the cartridge over all length stacks up

.38 Super= 1.280"

.30 Carbine = 1.650"

5.7x28= 1.575"

Yea maybe Coonan could build one but Maybe the.357 Sig is superior with less muzzle blast. I don't know but it was just a thought. Maybe I'll just stick to my government model with the carbine. More historic I guess.



I just thought it would make a good combo. I also likey that .30 carbine AR. ME DO WANT.

3rdpig  [Team Member]
9/20/2011 8:18:30 AM EST
Personally I've never really wanted a gun, rifle or pistol, chambered in 30 Carbine but I have gotten a few in trades over the years. While it's not a bad cartridge, the only thing it really excels at is reliable feeding in magazine fed weapons. Out of a carbine or rifle it's under powered for anything bigger than coyote, there are no good hunting bullets available for the velocity it generates (at least the last time I checked). Out of a pistol the muzzle blast is excessive and the bullets don't perform properly unless you hand load and even then, no good bullets are available for anything other than plinking or target practice.

I understand the love of the guns chambered in it, but the cartridge itself is something of a dog compared to more modern rounds.

For self defense? It's better than a sharp stick or a 22 LR, but unless you're trying to penetrate soft armor just about any decent pistol round would be a better choice. There just are no good bullets and loads available for the purpose.
lafmedic1  [Team Member]
9/20/2011 8:18:35 AM EST
Ok wait someone has a 30 carbine ar
Forest  [Team Member]
9/20/2011 8:19:33 AM EST
OAL doesn't mean much. What is important is how big the wound channel is and the .357Sig leaves a large wound channel than a .30 Carbine from a handgun - with less blast and more penetration.

I will note the .30 Carbine can be loaded a bit longer in the Blackhawk.

I tried an experiment loading some .308 110gr VMAX's , after pulling out the red plastic tip into .30 carbine cases. I had to run the bullet seater all the way back but the bullets just fit in the cylinders. Even with a light load (minium for a 110gr bullet) it felt over pressure, and accuracy sucked.

Ohio_Bill  [Team Member]
9/20/2011 8:23:31 AM EST
Originally Posted By Fat_McNasty:
yes AMT made one..


When I lived in Texas, a guy used to bring one of those to the local range. Very loud, big muzzle blast.
Forest  [Team Member]
9/20/2011 8:25:46 AM EST
Originally Posted By 3rdpig:
.Out of a pistol the muzzle blast is excessive and the bullets don't perform properly unless you hand load and even then, no good bullets are available for anything other than plinking or target practice.
.


BTW Hornady makes (or made I haven't seen any recently) a .309 (yep that's a nine) caliber 90gr XTP hollow point that is meant for use with the .30 carbine Blackhawk and the 7.62x25. I've loaded it for both.

It seems like it would make a fine bullet for hunting fox or even coyote, but lacks penetration for larger critters.

Some of my .30 Carbine loads with the .309 90gr XTP hollowpoints
Fat_McNasty  [Team Member]
9/20/2011 8:30:59 AM EST
Originally Posted By mjohn3006:
Originally Posted By Fat_McNasty:
Originally Posted By Nick_Adams314:
Originally Posted By Silver_Surfer:
Unless the super is loaded to IPSC?USPSA major PF the 30 would win. Why not just go 357sig?




Hmmm... a .357 sig glock combined with a nice handy .357 sig carbine would be a pretty appealing little combo! I like that idea...

Wonder how hard it would be to convert a beretta storm .40 to .357 sig?
Just a barrel change maybe??



yes pretty much. just a barrel swap.


I want a .30 carbine AR.

Oh...Wait...

http://nullbits.foxxz.net/albums/album44/IMG_4586_1200.sized.jpg

http://nullbits.foxxz.net/albums/album44/IMG_4593_1200.sized.jpg

http://nullbits.foxxz.net/albums/album44/IMG_4595_1200.jpg


did you get the gas system ironed out?
bobbitybobbity  [Team Member]
9/20/2011 8:35:27 AM EST
I have had my AMT Automag III since the early 90's. I love it for its entertainment factor. 1000% reliable and equally fun.
scatterbrains  [Member]
9/20/2011 9:01:42 AM EST
Originally Posted By mjohn3006:
Originally Posted By Fat_McNasty:
Originally Posted By Nick_Adams314:
Originally Posted By Silver_Surfer:
Unless the super is loaded to IPSC?USPSA major PF the 30 would win. Why not just go 357sig?




Hmmm... a .357 sig glock combined with a nice handy .357 sig carbine would be a pretty appealing little combo! I like that idea...

Wonder how hard it would be to convert a beretta storm .40 to .357 sig?
Just a barrel change maybe??



yes pretty much. just a barrel swap.


I want a .30 carbine AR.

Oh...Wait...

http://nullbits.foxxz.net/albums/album44/IMG_4586_1200.sized.jpg

http://nullbits.foxxz.net/albums/album44/IMG_4593_1200.sized.jpg

http://nullbits.foxxz.net/albums/album44/IMG_4595_1200.jpg




I absolutely love the concept of that rifle and want one soooo bad!!
neilfj  [Member]
9/20/2011 9:03:52 AM EST
Originally Posted By bobbitybobbity:
I have had my AMT Automag III since the early 90's. I love it for its entertainment factor. 1000% reliable and equally fun.


Same here. Great gun to shoot, lots of fun. Used it on some 200yd silhouette matches and found it to be very accurate too.
mjohn3006  [Team Member]
9/20/2011 9:28:02 AM EST
Originally Posted By Fat_McNasty:
Originally Posted By mjohn3006:
Originally Posted By Fat_McNasty:
Originally Posted By Nick_Adams314:
Originally Posted By Silver_Surfer:
Unless the super is loaded to IPSC?USPSA major PF the 30 would win. Why not just go 357sig?




Hmmm... a .357 sig glock combined with a nice handy .357 sig carbine would be a pretty appealing little combo! I like that idea...

Wonder how hard it would be to convert a beretta storm .40 to .357 sig?
Just a barrel change maybe??



yes pretty much. just a barrel swap.


I want a .30 carbine AR.

Oh...Wait...

http://nullbits.foxxz.net/albums/album44/IMG_4586_1200.sized.jpg

http://nullbits.foxxz.net/albums/album44/IMG_4593_1200.sized.jpg

http://nullbits.foxxz.net/albums/album44/IMG_4595_1200.jpg


did you get the gas system ironed out?


I have not had time to get to the range or do some "pointy" bullet reloads.
I'm sure it will be fine with a lighter buffer.
Sodie  [Member]
9/20/2011 9:36:26 AM EST
Yes, and I tried the AMT. It was loud like a mofo, on par with a .44mag, and the grip was pretty long in the bullet length direction.

neilfj  [Member]
9/20/2011 9:42:48 AM EST
Originally Posted By Sodie:
Yes, and I tried the AMT. It was loud like a mofo, on par with a .44mag, and the grip was pretty long in the bullet length direction.

http://gastatic.com/UserImages/91093/980545402/pop_wm_704129.jpg


Yup..definitely requires a large hand, and although you wouldn't think so, it is very comfortable to shoot. Not really a violent shock type recoil, but a firm push back. Using CMP surplus ammo would give you a 4' flame out of the barrel. Pretty impressive when shooting at dusk.
DonS  [Member]
9/20/2011 9:47:45 AM EST
Originally Posted By 3rdpig:
Personally I've never really wanted a gun, rifle or pistol, chambered in 30 Carbine but I have gotten a few in trades over the years. While it's not a bad cartridge, the only thing it really excels at is reliable feeding in magazine fed weapons. Out of a carbine or rifle it's under powered for anything bigger than coyote, there are no good hunting bullets available for the velocity it generates (at least the last time I checked). Out of a pistol the muzzle blast is excessive and the bullets don't perform properly unless you hand load and even then, no good bullets are available for anything other than plinking or target practice.

I understand the love of the guns chambered in it, but the cartridge itself is something of a dog compared to more modern rounds.

For self defense? It's better than a sharp stick or a 22 LR, but unless you're trying to penetrate soft armor just about any decent pistol round would be a better choice. There just are no good bullets and loads available for the purpose.


In terms of terminal performance (except where barrier penetration is an issue), the .30 carbine is equal to most FMJ 7.62x39. And there are advanced JHP .30 carbine loads.
DonS  [Member]
9/20/2011 9:50:04 AM EST
Also, during WW2 they developed a .30 carbine revolver. I don't think it kade it into production.

Frankly if I had a carbine during the war, I'd rather have a .45 1911 as a sidearm over some revolver in .30 carbine. Having common ammo between the two isn't all that important, IMO.
grumpy-old-man  [Member]
9/20/2011 9:59:52 AM EST
Kimball (now long defunct) made a semi-auto pistol chambered for .30 Cal. Carbine in the late 50s; looked like an over sized High Standard semi-auto. Reportedly, S&W chambered a revolver for the round in 1944.
Hoodooman  [Team Member]
9/20/2011 10:00:53 AM EST
The Automag III... (Not mine - just 10 seconds on Google...)
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