Women and Freemasonry.

Perusing the Facebook page linked in our section, I am reminded why I tend to not participate in what I call "Internet Lodge and Fellowship" all that often.

Every brother Mason in the US (and most other jurisdictions worldwide) has vowed to not sit in a lodge with anyone not made a Mason in a just and lawfully constituted lodge. (Meaning no Women, or irregular Masons). It seems that every Masonic discussion board has someone from a Clandestine Lodge, or a female, speaking for our craft, as a whole, answering questions and carrying on. Not wanting to be "that guy", or to take away from someone's experiences or passions, I shut up and move along. I often feel like I should point out to the Profane that they are not getting information from a reliable source in regards to Regular Freemasonry.

For me, this falls into the "Pretending to be Something that you are not", which causes fits of rage amongst some of us veterans here when that applies to the military. Although their Degree Work and Symbolism may be similar, they are not Masons, if by nothing else ancient tradition. Their use of the Square and Compass and speaking with authority on a group which they are not part of annoys me, at best, and reeks of impersonation. Using an Eotech doesn't make me anymore of a Delta Operator than using the Square and Compass makes them a Freemson.

I believe that the tenants of our Craft is useful to everyone, and we have much to offer as a guide to life. I am all for teaching this to everyone, but, please, do not call yourself something you are not. If it is important enough for you to learn, and you cherish that knowledge enough, feel free to get together with like minded individuals, start a group, whatever...but you are not a Freemason. Calling yourself as such, without being made a Mason in a Regular lodge, is being intentionally misleading.

There is a lady speaking, as a Freemason, on the Facebook page linked here, in the discussion section. I have noticed none of our brethren speaking up on the issue, so I was just curious if I am the only one that feels this way, or making a mountain out of a mole hill.



Fraternally,

Seeking More Light

YOUR NOT IN COMMUNITACTION WITH A CLANDESTINE MADE MASON ARE YOU?





(had to do it)







With that said: Women are masons.. Not F&AM or AF&AM and not recognised by anything we would consider legitimate . There are many, (southern hemisphere) "Woman" accepted lodge. I've heard of woman form the USA going to the philippines to become Masons. Are they accepted here NOPE, but they are Masons. Same can be said of the dirty French Lodges that allow Atheist's

Maybe doing a little nit-picking here, but whose guidelines are we to believe?

According to my Grand Lodge, they are not Masons, period. They may be members of organizations which have the same name, and a similar belief system with a set of principles which we would recognize. Freemasons? Nope, unless we abide by their definition of such.

I guess what I am trying to get at is, just because I call my Subaru a Ferrari, even though they more alike (in the general sense of the term) than they are different, doesn't mean my wife drives an Enzo around.

Not sure I am making sense here, but, with European descendant Masons being the accepted norm in traditional Freemasonry stating that these people are Freemasons, does it really matter what they call themselves? Since we do not recognize them as such, are they the voice of authority for the organization that is accepted as "The Freemasons", although they are not members? Can I claim to have attended Yale although my certificate says DeVry?


Here is one that pertains to Arfcom:

Is the Chinese ACOG a representative of the Trijicon line-up?

HAHAHAHAH!!!!!

Seriously, though, knowing what we agreed to during our degree work, how can we call these people Freemasons?

Please by no means be offended by anything I say. I some times take the "other sides" role to show the point..


Woman Masons are to a F&AM, as are P/H, view to F&AM
They all view themselves as Mason's, but consider the others Clandestine. That's all.

Example: Up until two weeks ago I had a 33rd degree PH fellow working for me(moved away). Super great guy, couldn't have asked for a better employee, just a great person.
We both knew what we were Masonicly. With that said we didn't view each other as "brothers" because I was a F&AM and He a P/H we viewed each other as Clandestine and left it at that.
We could talk about anything masonic that you would with any profane person.


I hope this explains it better, I may not have read you post correctly also..


EDIT: No you do not view them as a MASON

No offense taken, at all.

I am in no way trying to diminish what they do, what they are, or their beliefs....I just think that it is disingenuous to call themselves something that they have not been able to be part of for Millenia.

I have known Prince Hall Masons (That always identify themselves as such) that were shining examples of Human Beings, but would be quick to point out that they were not AF&AM or F&AM, but Prince Hall Masons. Equal, but different.

What or who is right in this situation? Hard to tell, but I will lean towards the eldest group.

Co-Masonry, and others like it, violates one of the most basic tenets of Freemasonry, as it has been known for hundreds, maybe thousands, of years. You must be a male to join. My buddy and I can name our club "NOW", and believe in feminism all we want, but I doubt they would want us speaking for their organization.

The reasons for the restrictions are for reason you might not have thought of yet(or not mentioned yet). I will IM you with it.

Brother, I think you and I are in the same city, but passing each other on the Interstate, as far as our discussion is going.

I responded back

Soror; Latin root word for sister.
Frater; Latin root word for brother.
Sororities = women only.
Fraternities = men only.
Masonry was founded, has always been, is, and will always be a FRATERNITY.

I conceed the point that I may be missing something....

Yes, there are Woman that call themselves Mason's and "may" (?) have been taught the same stuff as us.

Are they "recognised F&AM's" No.

making a woman a mason is a direct violation of my obligation. sitting in lodge with a woman is a direct violation of my obligation. Based on Alabama grand lodge edicts and the obligations is was given there is simply no way they could be recognized. at least here that is the case.

I agree with you Masonically, but what puts me in a fit of rage is when "vets" take an elitist attitude and looks down on "civvies" for putting eotechs on their weapons. But that's just me and irrelevant to the topic.

Just as a note: I am not advocating nor supporting women as masons, just making that clear..

I will not sit in a Lodge with women. I have sat in Lodge with PH Masons, just not in WVa.

Little opsec there brother.... tbs

Doesn't say anything about blacks or PH.

If i knowingly sit in lodge with ph mason i am in violation of my obligations here as they are considered clandestine.

Every jurisdiction has different rules for PH.

Yep, UT recognizes them.

if he is a member of WV as his location shows they do not recognize PH. don't know their rules beyond that but here it would be grounds for expulsion.

my point is that the obligations we take are specific in regards to women and clandestine masons. if i knowingly sat in lodge with what we consider a clandestinely made mason, PH or any other type, i would be in direct violation of my obligation.

Not to be under-stated but. yup.
only recognise F&AM and AF&AM


Now to mess with everything..... What about your "appendant" bodies, and there restrictions?... I have heard of S/R's and Y/R's allowing PH to participate..

here they have their own SR and YR. membership in the appendent bodies is at the discretion of the grand lodge we belong to. As our obligation would not allow us to sit in lodge with a clandestine mason <any lodge not just alabama grand lodge lodges> that would be a no-go for sr or yr as well.

i can only speak for Al on that one.

Nevermind, I was mistaken about a PA rule.

What if someone from WV visited Colorado? There he is, sitting in an AF&AM lodge recognized by the GL of WV, and right next to him is a PH Mason that's fully recognized within the jurisdiction but not by his home lodge - Would he have to get up an leave at that point?

This is one reason I don't visit out of state. Each Grand Lodge is independent so without doing more research than a 2 week vacation would justify, I'd have no idea if I might be sitting next to a Grand Masonic Lodge of Ireland or male CoMason, or what.

I am NOT suggesting that we all get together and require the same recognition among all US lodges, however. I just don't know how these things are handled.

if that was me and i KNOWINGLY sat in lodge even out of state with a clandestine mason i would be in violation. the key there is knowingly. my choices would be to stay and risk my own expulsion or to politely excuse myself from lodge. i don't assume a black man is a prince hall mason anymore than i do a white guy is a bluelodge mason. The alabama grand lodge has some black members and that would be stupid and frankly rude imho.

this has actually come up here. i don't know of anyone expelled for it but it's certainly been cause for discussion.

It's generally (as far as I know) announced with the other visiting Masons "welcome to _____ from Kansas xxx and _____ from PH xxx" so there'd be no doubt.

Hmm, I was fairly sure that we didn't recognize the Grand Lodge of Ireland when I was raised, but now it looks like there's a chance we do. I wonder if they got included in the recognition orgy a decade or so ago along with PH ... Too much effort to call my GL and ask, so I'll just avoid Ireland this week.

Not to get into too much of this story until the books are out, but...

During a "Pairing of the Lodges" between my lodge and Solis de Marti of the Grand Lodge of Cuba for there 150th anniversary (over 100 nations were represented btw).

We kicked out the French delegation when we opened.

I will not get into too much detail but this is what happens during a Parring of Lodges

The home lodge opens in there native form
then guest lodge opens in there form
business is conducted, then closing in reverse.

(I please ask that you do not make comments or speculations that could endanger the Masons that are still there and would put at risk the possibility for future Humanitarian visits)

As said before, there are restrictions based on the individual restrictions at the membership lodges regarding clandestine status. In Wyoming, there is communication between PH and AF&AM. No problem there. But I believe that everywhere in the Northern hemisphere women are considered ineligible for initiation and membership. Remember there are 7 restrictions (trying to keep some OPSEC) regarding initiation and communiation.

i saw a PP presentation a couple of years ago on concealed cuban lodges. it was really cool.

The_Beer_Slayer do you know who had the PP, I'd love to see it. Check into it, and if it's not for public viewing, maybe it could be sent lodge to lodge....

The free born part covers that as it was explained to me. That being said Me and Dad have became friends with a P/H mason who lives across from a house we are working on. He sees the decals on our cars and we see the ones on his. We talk about everything from him and Dad being Nam Vets and him being special forces to his big crazy dog. We do not talk about Masonic stuff but I know if push comes to shove we could call on him for help. This doesn't have anything to do with an oath or anything but it did open a door seeing the decal on the car. But both sides understand what is required and expected of them.

Jmho, but i personally have no issues assisting a ph brother in need. I may not be able to discus the secrets with him, but i still consider him to be a mason and i am not going to ask for his lodge card before helping if the distress call is issued.

I am proud to be a CT Mason, and we were, from what a mwpgm said, the first state to continuously recognize Prince Hall Masons, but aside from that, i have an interesting short story.

As i said, i am a CT mason, there for we are A.F. & A.M. We recognize all U.S. states (that i'm aware of, but for my purposes, i know, for a fact, we recognize the District of Columbia). I was in D.C. for college and a buddy of mine asked me to come with him to a lodge meeting to help represent the local DeMolay chapter. Being a master mason, i had no problem going to the meeting and worked my way in properly.

The District of Columbia, at the time (i dont think anything has changed, but i can only speak to the time), DC recognized Belgum masons. In the lodge meeting there was a female worshipful master from a belgian lodge. this was NOT an open night, ladies night, public night whatever. I asked a few grand masters (my grandfather being one of them at the time) and they said that i did not violate any rules or obligations because each lodge was a just and lawfully constituted lodge of master masons, and i was at a dc meeting, and dc lodges are recognized by ct, so i was not in the wrong. that said, i know what the obligations are, but i have been told i'm in the clear.

I still dont support female masons, but if they want to me in the masonic family, there are organizations out there like eastern star and amaranth.

also found out one of my wife's childhood friends (also female) has a square and compass tattoo now and is meeting with a past grand chaplain who is mentoring her, but no lodge will accept her petition (which is right in my opinion). i do think the past grand chaplain is very much in the wrong for mentoring though

Same obligation I took 2

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