Originally Posted By Jacknife:

However, I tend to see the pump as being, potenially, more reliable.

Originally Posted By WPNS462:


+1

I have a Mossberg 500 with an 18" breacher bbl on it. (I'm at work or I'd take a quick pic and post)

Lots of add-ons to Mossberg and 870 platforms.

EDIT* Fixed the quoting.

Originally Posted By WPNS462:
SBS Tromix

I love the iron sights on this. Very nice.


I've usually had Mossbergs. I had an old 88, but I never did anything with it other then put on a pistol grip. I love my 500 with the pitol grip/buttstock combo on it.

I gotta check out the 870s. I don't have experience with them.

ETA* See the guy in blue next to the shooter? Once he starts shooting, Blue takes a step back like "WTF is that"?

Originally Posted By WPNS462:
Check the shotgun forum in the Armory section. Lots of beatiful shotty pics. I started from the last page. There's a Tromix SBS on the bottom of page 66.

Originally Posted By doc_Zox:
http://img170.echo.cx/img170/3998/bayonetii4sf.gif

Originally Posted By Noarguy:
Kel tec cough cough

Originally Posted By Solodevice:
All these rails and stuff score high on the cool factor but to me they are just about as useful as a "heat shield"
It's just a fuck ton more weight added to an already behemoth weapon.
I am also not a fan of vert grips on the slide of a pump. Just seems like it's putting to much pressure from an
angle it was not designed to take. The knoxx stock is a cool item, seems to have some good write up about
recoil reduction and assisting in getting you back on target faster, which sounds great for a semi, dunno how
I feel about it for a pump, since you are already having to rack the slide which you will be doing while getting
back on target.

If you like a red dot on your shotty they make picatinny rails for the top that just bolt right in. Get yer surefire
slide for the light and you are golden.

Also I have seen these Centerfire Systems MK-1919 semi auto mag fed shotties recently, from all the reviews
I have seen, they look cool but FTE are a major issue when firing anything resembling fast.

Originally Posted By Solodevice:
All these rails and stuff score high on the cool factor but to me they are just about as useful as a "heat shield"
It's just a fuck ton more weight added to an already behemoth weapon.
I am also not a fan of vert grips on the slide of a pump. Just seems like it's putting to much pressure from an
angle it was not designed to take. The knoxx stock is a cool item, seems to have some good write up about
recoil reduction and assisting in getting you back on target faster, which sounds great for a semi, dunno how
I feel about it for a pump, since you are already having to rack the slide which you will be doing while getting
back on target.

If you like a red dot on your shotty they make picatinny rails for the top that just bolt right in. Get yer surefire
slide for the light and you are golden.

Also I have seen these Centerfire Systems MK-1919 semi auto mag fed shotties recently, from all the reviews
I have seen, they look cool but FTE are a major issue when firing anything resembling fast.

[span style='font-weight: bold;']I am also not a fan of vert grips on the slide of a pump. Just seems like it's putting to much pressure from an
angle it was not designed to take. The knoxx stock is a cool item, seems to have some good write up about
recoil reduction and assisting in getting you back on target faster, which sounds great for a semi, dunno how
I feel about it for a pump, since you are already having to rack the slide which you will be doing while getting
back on target.

Originally Posted By Solodevice:


They need to fix their shit before I even think about buying one.

If you are firing, and you don't release the trigger before you cycle the slide i.e. you attempt something like a slam fire weather on purpose on accidental,
the trigger will not reset until you cycle the slide again.
So you miss your next shot AND you have to dump a live round out of your weapon. This is gonna cost you valuable seconds, not to
mention the WTF JUST HAPPENED TO MY SHIT? thought that you are gonna have which is gonna cost you more valuable seconds.

Originally Posted By BladedRonin:
If I could build my "ideal" shotgun (to be carried around in addition to my AR) it would have to be a 20g over/under, sawed off at the foreend and then pistol gripped. The reasoning for this is it would make an excellent get-out-of-shit gun and being no bigger than a pistol, capable of one hand op in a hallway or car.

With practice, quick fast reloads come with ease.

Originally Posted By KDK058:


Ive though of this exact setup, its sweet looking as well compact, but im still kind of on the fence about it

Originally Posted By Badger545:
The two most important things are going to be your tactical parameters and personal preferences.

When you consider your tactical parameters think types of loads you will most commonly be using and the most effective set up for them, barrel length (are you thinking CQC shotgun for clearing buildings, or something you can reach out to longer ranges more accurately), choke (breaching, improved cylinder, etc.) and other considerations. pick a gun with features that best fit the situations you'll see yourself in most often.

Then comes personal preferences. To me with modern semi auto systems it is pretty much a push vs a pump action. the slight gain in speed balances the ever so slight loss of reliability due to more stuff that can break. Also consider what type of optics, if any you prefer and all your "tacticool" appearance alterations.

With all that in mind, the ideal shotty for me is something along the lines of this:
http://www.elitetacticaladvantage.com/products/shotguns/devastator/images/coated_devastator.png

A Remington 1100 with all the goodies from elite tactical advantage

Originally Posted By TorchUall:
No spas 12. Always wanted one. Pump action semi auto.

Originally Posted By Badger545:
The two most important things are going to be your tactical parameters and personal preferences.

When you consider your tactical parameters think types of loads you will most commonly be using and the most effective set up for them, barrel length (are you thinking CQC shotgun for clearing buildings, or something you can reach out to longer ranges more accurately), choke (breaching, improved cylinder, etc.) and other considerations. pick a gun with features that best fit the situations you'll see yourself in most often.

Then comes personal preferences. To me with modern semi auto systems it is pretty much a push vs a pump action. the slight gain in speed balances the ever so slight loss of reliability due to more stuff that can break. Also consider what type of optics, if any you prefer and all your "tacticool" appearance alterations.

With all that in mind, the ideal shotty for me is something along the lines of this:
http://www.elitetacticaladvantage.com/products/shotguns/devastator/images/coated_devastator.png

A Remington 1100 with all the goodies from elite tactical advantage

Another myth is the “fact” that you don’t have to aim. We can not say how many times we have heard this argument touted by the unknowing. A shotgun is a tool, like all tools, it must be used correctly to obtain the maximum effective application of its preferred use. You can not simply point a shotgun down a narrow hallway and fire, hoping to blast away all in the shots path. There is no such thing as a “cone of death” with a shotgun and anything in its path will not be obliterated, shredded, blown backwards or otherwise disintegrate into a mound of quivering flesh. Shot fired from a shotgun has a pattern and depending on the distance and the type of shot, there are gaps in that pattern. Like all firearms, you have to aim the weapon at the intended target in order for the shot to do the job intended.

“I like shotguns because they will do everything I want it to.” This statement is great if you are hunting upland birds or kicking the brush for rabbit. It’s a bad one to make for a defensive shotgun. A shotgun is not a “do all” weapon. It is a do many things, but it either does a specific job well, as all firearms, or it half-asses everything, which is where people make the mistake in using a shotgun. Before one starts rolling their eyes at this, read on for the reasons we believe this about the shotgun. For now, you must accept that the shotgun, while versatile, is simply not an ‘everything’ firearm, especially in a defensive weapon.

The final myth of the shotgun we will address; “I can load it with slugs and use it just like my rifle.” It is not a rifle. The shotgun can be used as a solid projectile thrower. But this is not what it was designed for. It has limited range as a slug thrower and requires a special (rifled) barrel to make a slug (preferably a sabot) travel any respectable distance with accuracy. As a standard out-of-the-box firearm, the shotgun-as-rifle is a poor substitute for the real thing.

Disadvantages
Okay, four of the myths have been addressed. There are more, but for the defensive purposes of the argument, we’ll limit the focus to just those. In order to proceed, we need to get really negative and talk about how a shotgun is a disadvantage to the defensive shooter. After all, like weight lifting, we have to tear the muscle down to build it back up.

While this next statement might fall into the myth category, we are going to address it here as a disadvantage. There are two parts to the statement and we will look at both. Many believe that all they need to end the fight are the limited number of rounds contained within the short internal magazine of their shotgun. After all, the shotgun is so powerful that it will stop a fight with one round. Not true, in fact, like all firearms, stopping the attack depends on the placement of the round on the target. There is no guarantee that a single round, even if of 00 buckshot, will cause enough damage to the enemy to stop their action which brought the encounter in the first place. As noted in the background section, even a double load of 00 buckshot might not be enough to keep the opponent from continuing their action. Here we must address the statement that preceded the power myth of the shotgun; the lack of the need to reload because the weapon is so powerful. In reality, the number one disadvantage of a shotgun is the limited ammunition capacity and it is not really as powerful as people wish it to be. Most shotguns are limited to fewer rounds than a well concealed revolver. Tactical shotguns with extended tubes partially rectify this drawback, but modern revolvers are capable of holding up to eight rounds in a less punishing package (We use the revolver as a comparison not because we recommend the revolver, but because it is a package that everyone can relate to and has myths of its own). Most shotguns straight from the factory are regulated to two rounds. Removing the plug can increase this to as many as eight, but the standard is four. Not only is the shotgun limited in ammo, it is also slow to reload—unless one spends hours a week practicing—and even then, a speed-loaded revolver is still a faster alternative in a defensive weapon.

What people fail to understand is that over an extended period of time, a shotgun is punishing to shoot. We have spoken with many people who like to say that they can shoot a hundred rounds in a day through their favorite birdgun. While this is fine for them and certainly increases the tolerance for the shotgun, the standard field load does not translate very well to a hundred rounds of defensive loads. A great disadvantage of the shotgun is the recoil. The standard qualification for police is about thirty rounds of full-power ammo. From experience, we can say that it is hard to get officers out to the range to qualify with this firearm because they simply do not like shooting full-power loads one right after another. Because of its recoil people do not like to train as they should with a shotgun. In order to remedy this problem, manufacturers have come out with shock absorber stocks, recoil reducers, and other gimmicks to cushion the felt recoil of the shotgun. These not only add weight to many shotguns, but they also add to cost. There have also been “reduced” loads or “tactical loads” which in reality castrates the questionable power advantage the shotgun may have within the scope of its usefulness.

Shotguns, fully loaded and tactically dressed out are heavy. A similarly set up AR15 with 30 rounds weighs less than a shotgun with seven rounds in the tube, five in a side saddle and five more in a butt stock sleeve. If you don’t think that weight is a problem, carry that shotgun all day and use it in a tactical class. Weight and the distribution of that weight are paramount for an all day hump as well as a limited engagement within the confines of a defensive battle. If your firearm is a pain to use when not stressed out, the mental attitude about that same firearm will translate to its usefulness in an excited state. You will be less likely to depend and use the weapon in the intended role, foregoing the shotgun in favor of less cumbersome weapons.


Finally, many think that the shotgun is great because anyone can use one. The problem is that the shotgun can not be used by everyone. Size and strength matter greatly when using a long arm like the shotgun. Shotgun stocks are fixed for one length of pull. They are not made as a one size fits all as most believe them to be. When properly mounted, a defensive shotgun stock is too long for the average shooter. When using a pump-action shotgun—perhaps the number one shotgun recommended by anyone—the distance of the forearm to the action may be overly long for smaller shooters which can result in short stroking the weapon or simply not having enough leverage to hold the shotgun up for aiming and operation. In addition to the above mentioned failings, the manual of arms for a shotgun is intensive. To use a shotgun is not simply a matter of loading and firing—the weapon as a defensive tool needs to be employed properly as well. There are stages in a shotguns readiness and an individual who is not familiar with the operation and ways to achieve those stages can be opening themselves up to a series of catastrophic events. Swapping out rounds from buckshot to a slug if needed, and reloading the shotgun in a manner that keeps it ready for use, are skills which require knowledge and practice.

Originally Posted By Gelgoog:


Spas-12 is too complicated to use, hard to break down and heavy. It may be very reliable, but it is awkward to use especially having to hold a button down to open the loading gate. I sold mine for that reason.



I know there is much love for the shotgun, but there is a reason why they have seen almost zero military usage in the last 60 years.

Here is a good short article on the subject.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=72535

Here are the most important aspects:



As for attaching 8 lbs of useless rails and a red dot to a shotgun

Its a shotgun, all you need is a light. not tons of useless realestate that only a qualified sniper with 10 grand in optics could make use of.

Originally Posted By blt-2-drg:
Mine!

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a28/blt2drg/Gunbroker/DSC08036.jpg

Originally Posted By KDK058:


Ive though of this exact setup, its sweet looking as well compact, but im still kind of on the fence about it

Originally Posted By RRice:
The answer is simple if we are playing the "what shotgun for the zombie apocalypse?" game;

Tromix.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d71/Rice52277/6131781393_7846615b85_z2.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d71/Rice52277/Tromix001.jpg

The gun just flat out runs.You're not going to be using birdshot in the zombie fantasy land and this thing eats buck and slugs all day long.It cycles fast as hell,recoil is manageable and is portable.

If the Tromix isn't an option a well thought out S12 is worth a look.A good DIY conversion with the right ergonomic parts is a great way to go.Same stuff applies(fast,manageable recoil etc)

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d71/Rice52277/Rybeach007.jpg?t=1318076042

Originally Posted By tspike:
KISS

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v496/tspike911/Guns/IMG_8168.jpg

Originally Posted By Solodevice:

So I personally would go with an 870, but this is not say I havent had a hard on for a SBS Tromix for a few years now.

ETA: the pump opens up a whole new world of available 12ga rounds. such as the 1 3/4" minishot shells that you can get in buck bird and slug. that's 12rds in a standard 18"bbl
Also it gives you other rounds such as flechette, bola etc.

Originally Posted By mcculver5:


I agree with you on the 870 but most 870s take a puke on the mini-shells.

Originally Posted By shade_1313:


I would love a Tromix, but for now, the self convert option is the way I had to go:

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k83/shade_1313/2011-10-30_12-24-44_323.jpg

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k83/shade_1313/2011-10-30_12-24-26_40.jpg

Originally Posted By Solodevice:
ETA: the pump opens up a whole new world of available 12ga rounds. such as the 1 3/4" minishot shells that you can get in buck bird and slug. that's 12rds in a standard 18"bbl

Also it gives you other rounds such as flechette, bola etc.

Originally Posted By doc_Zox:
http://img170.echo.cx/img170/3998/bayonetii4sf.gif

Originally Posted By akuser-47:
How heavy are these saiga 12s full size convereted and SBS like the tromix? They look like they are heavy?

Originally Posted By akuser-47:
How heavy are these saiga 12s full size convereted and SBS like the tromix? They look like they are heavy?

Originally Posted By doc_Zox:
http://img170.echo.cx/img170/3998/bayonetii4sf.gif

Originally Posted By Fullautoguy:


That's pretty

Originally Posted By NotAbeaR:
One thing i would add would be a good choke to put in my pocket. Cause you never know then you will just find bird shot.