AR15.Com Archives
 Anatolian shepherds
nsw8148  [Team Member]
1/18/2010 4:29:22 AM
Hey all, my wife had an Anatolian shepherd that died 5-6 years ago and she has wanted another for awhile.

We are finally moving into a place that we'll be able to own a dog and I think its time to purchase one.

Any advice on what to look for?

Also any pics of your Anatolians would be appreciated, as they are beautiful animals
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DLaw  [Team Member]
1/18/2010 4:41:39 AM

Meet Zeus here he is looking lovingly into the eyes of my lady..
Woe be to the person that tries to mess with her when he's around..

Got him from Akards acres outta Texas..
http://www.akardsanatolianshepherds.com/OurDogs.html
Jake is my dogs sire.
IMHO best dogs ever..

Here's another pic kinda gives you an idea of how big they can get..


nsw8148  [Team Member]
1/18/2010 12:14:25 PM
He's beautifuland exactly what we're looking for.

Thank you so much for the picture and information. I'll have my wife give them a call.
humby45  [Team Member]
1/18/2010 7:42:02 PM
This is one of my in-law's dogs. His name is Efe. One of the coolest dogs I've ever known. They call them Kangals though. Apparently there is a difference between Kangals and Anatolian Shepherds, but I can't tell the difference.



akodo  [Member]
1/18/2010 9:19:12 PM
Originally Posted By humby45:
This is one of my in-law's dogs. His name is Efe. One of the coolest dogs I've ever known. They call them Kangals though. Apparently there is a difference between Kangals and Anatolian Shepherds, but I can't tell the difference.
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp44/humby45/122.jpg




Here's the deal

people who used working dogs (be they terriers, sled dogs, or flock guardians) bred from a limited genepool of their local dogs to meet their local need, and sometimes when outside dogs were around that had similar traits they were thrown into the mix. This is why we have so many different terrier breeds, and why there are other types of sleddogs besides the AKC three (Like Greenland Huskies)

One region in Turkey had a flock guardian dog called the Kangal which was of a uniform fawn color, and a uniform black mask on the face, very large and wolf-aggressive. This region was known for it's great dogs and the dogs were often sold to outsiders to use in their flocks. Well, it's hard to sustain a breed with a pair here and a pair there, so the Fawn colored black masked wolf hating dog was most often encountered in this one region, but similar dogs were found elsewhere.

And of course, other areas had their own flock guardians. These often had similar stories, where one area there were a lot of the dogs, and then scattered out there were fewer and fewer, and more of those dogs interbred.

Now, in the 1850s-1920s it was considered classy in Western Europe to travel the world looking for new creatures, be they butterflies, flowers, trees, or whatever. So many dog fanciers traveled around 'discovering' new breeds of dogs (well, new to the Western Europeans anyways) Some went to Turkey and found some big white flock guardian types. They in many ways resembled the Great Pyrenees, but weren't so heavily built and coated. These dogs were labeled with the Turkish word Akbash which literally translates as white head (Humm...flock guardian, white or offwhite through the whole body, but head-color is what is noted!...of course these dog fanciers didn't travel to the region where there were fawn colored dogs with black masks, but that name really stands out to me)

Akbash Pictures



And then in Hungary another similar dog was found, the Kuvasz, which was very similar but geographically separate. Later, it was found out that the people had fled Turkey in the 1200s and settled in Hungary, and they had taken their flock guardians with them

Kuvasz Pictures


Later some dog lovers went back to Turkey and found flock guardians that were not uniformly white, but where some in the litter might be white, others were spotted, some had black masks, and they had a varying coat length, but were all big strong flock guardian dogs...and they were found in relative low numbers all over. So the people name them Anatolian Shepherd Dog, with Anatolian being an old Greek word for Turkey.

Some of these dogs were imported to the West and became the foundation stock of the Anatolian Shepherd Dog line, as was eventually recognized by the AKC, UKC and a few others. Note the AKC standard of the dog which states

Coat
Short (one inch minimum, not tight) to Rough (approximately 4 inches in length) with neck hair slightly longer. Somewhat longer and thicker at the neck and mane. A thick undercoat is common to all. Feathering may occur on the ear fringes, legs, breeching, and tail.

Color
All color patterns and markings are equally acceptable


So as you can tell from that while they had uniformly big bodies, were used for flock guardians, and had undercoats, their phyiscal coloration, coat length, and tail hairs could be quite different

Anatolian Shepherd Dog Pictures.



Well, some other people went back to turkey AGAIN and this time went to a region where all the Flock Guardians were uniformally tan colored, had uniform length coats, and black facemask or at least muzzle. The people there called these dogs Kangals. The western dog fanciers declared them a THIRD type, and went about treating it as a different breed.


Kangal Dog Pictures



Note, you will see a lot of the same pictures in Turkey of the dogs, each side claming it as one of their own...but at shows, you will only find tan with black mask/muzzle dogs as kangal, but you will see show shots of different color Anatolian Shepards, even though they are getting less common. Now, I picked the least Kangal looking images for the Anatolian, but I threw in a few Kangal type pictures. If you Google Image the Anatolian, about 65% of the images will be very Kangal type. Of course, if you google image search the Kangal, 100% are Kangal type...nore on that later

My believe is that there are at least two distinct types of flock guardians in Turkey...the big sold white Akbash and the big solid tan with black face Kangal, each very common in their own region, but there are big areas were these dogs are less common and the two types got blended together. It was this blended together type that got labeled as Anatolian Shepards. I also think it is also always a bad idea to take big sweeping wide variety of dogs and put them in breeds. Just think if some Turkish doglover went to the Isles of Great Britian and 'discovered' Terrier dogs, and simply called the whole wide variety 'British Terriers' (because there are plenty of terrier mutts that are cross between different types of terrier...or between 1 terrier and 1 generic mutt)

When I look at the dogs labeled Anatolian Shepard Dog that are NOT of the Kangal type, I see what I would expect to see in Kangal x Akbash, or Kangal x Mutt, or Akbash X Mutt, or some Greek Shepard too. (Again, another regional flock guardian that is going to have some washover)


Anyways, after the Kangals were discovered, a lot of the Anatolian breeders started selectively breeding their dogs more toward that end of the spectrum...even though the 'breed standard' said nothing about preferring tan dogs with black faces.

Then the Anatiolian Shepard Dog and Kangal people started to get in fights about who was right, who was true, etc etc. Both tried to get people from Turkey to say one way or the other.

Now it seems clear to me that the best solution is for the Kangal Type to be considered a subset of Anatolian Shepard Dogs, where a ASD can have any number of Kangal parents in it's history and still be considered ASD, but where a Kangal dog must have 3 of it's 4 grandparents Kangal, and the other one can be ASD. (for when an ASD breeder crosses their dog with a Kangal and produces a very very good dog, that dog can be bred back into the Kangal line...just not all at once, at a slow rate to keep the different type pure)

A similar setup existed for many years with smooth and wirecoated fox terriers.

Of course neither group will budge. I think each group suffers because there wasn't a huge genetic variation of either group's foundation stock, so allowing this specific intermixing seems to me to be a smart thing. Of course, you tell each of the die-hards this and they'd say it would be about as useful as crossbreeding their dog with a Dalmation.


Anyways, I think the Kangal people have it most correct, and I find it very interesting how the Anatolian Shepard Dog people have so quickly morphed their dogs to look almost identical. "mixed types" (my theory, Akbash bloodlines X Kangal bloodlines) are almost unheard of now in the ring....but by morphing an existing line to stress just a few characteristics, you can really start to slim down your genetic variation.
humby45  [Team Member]
1/18/2010 10:04:39 PM

My mother in law actually tried to get into breeding Kangals. They had the one dog, Efe, since he was a pup. She ended up getting two more and was going to breed. We even tried out the dog shows. She was really getting into it, but the people were being really ugly. The whole Anatolian vs. Kangal debate was a little too much and it just wasn't fun any more. They really are great dogs. Very protective, but not overly aggressive. At least not in my experience.
There was also problems with their hips that she had to check for. I would imagine this is from the lack of new blood in the breed. I guess it's difficult to get new dogs out of Turkey.

nsw8148  [Team Member]
1/18/2010 10:06:14 PM
Holy cow, you really went above and beyond with that response, thank you!

I like the darker facial features, now I know we're looking for a "Kangal"


Thank you all for the info
downtown_adam  [Team Member]
1/19/2010 10:13:41 AM
Komondors are the best!

(Actually, livestock guardian dogs are all the best.)
crazytuco  [Member]
1/19/2010 4:27:16 PM
I know that around here in the local ag paper you can't read through the dog ads without seeing several litters of Anatolians for sale. The breed is still considered an honest to God working breed around here.
nsw8148  [Team Member]
1/19/2010 5:00:39 PM
Originally Posted By crazytuco:
I know that around here in the local ag paper you can't read through the dog ads without seeing several litters of Anatolians for sale. The breed is still considered an honest to God working breed around here.


Lucky you, I havent seen squat up here


My sister-in-law Lives in Oregon, maybe I'll have her look around for me
akodo  [Member]
1/19/2010 8:03:26 PM
Originally Posted By nsw8148:
Holy cow, you really went above and beyond with that response, thank you!

I like the darker facial features, now I know we're looking for a "Kangal"


Thank you all for the info


when I was about 3 I was 'helping' Mom put away some groceries. I took out all the cucumbers and arranged them by size, except for two in the middle, one was shorter but fatter, and I kept on switching them back and forth as my little mind tried to figure out the concept of volume.

If something interests me, and there are items to codify/organize, that seems to highten my interest. I like dogs. I'd be much more likely to pick up a book titled "dog breeds A to Z' than 'Grooming Tricks' or 'How to Train your Dog Right the First Time'. Similarly, in guns, I'd be more likely to pick up 'Cartridges of the World' rather than a 'How To Tune a Revolver's Trigger'
nsw8148  [Team Member]
1/19/2010 9:01:27 PM
Originally Posted By akodo:
Originally Posted By nsw8148:
Holy cow, you really went above and beyond with that response, thank you!

I like the darker facial features, now I know we're looking for a "Kangal"


Thank you all for the info


when I was about 3 I was 'helping' Mom put away some groceries. I took out all the cucumbers and arranged them by size, except for two in the middle, one was shorter but fatter, and I kept on switching them back and forth as my little mind tried to figure out the concept of volume.

If something interests me, and there are items to codify/organize, that seems to highten my interest. I like dogs. I'd be much more likely to pick up a book titled "dog breeds A to Z' than 'Grooming Tricks' or 'How to Train your Dog Right the First Time'. Similarly, in guns, I'd be more likely to pick up 'Cartridges of the World' rather than a 'How To Tune a Revolver's Trigger'


At first I was wondering the relevance of your post, but now I can see that we kinda think alike

You took the information and broke it down very well. Again, thank you.
crazytuco  [Member]
1/20/2010 12:45:54 PM
Originally Posted By nsw8148:
Originally Posted By crazytuco:
I know that around here in the local ag paper you can't read through the dog ads without seeing several litters of Anatolians for sale. The breed is still considered an honest to God working breed around here.


Lucky you, I havent seen squat up here


My sister-in-law Lives in Oregon, maybe I'll have her look around for me


Have her get her hands on a copy of The Capital Press. That's the Oregon/SW Washington ag paper.


ETA: You might just want to google it. I don't know if they put their classifieds on their website or not.
DLaw  [Team Member]
1/27/2010 4:51:38 AM
Here's a couple puppy pics of Zeus when he was a puppy..



nsw8148  [Team Member]
1/27/2010 8:15:48 PM
Beautiful

You can tell he's beefy at that age even
nsw8148  [Team Member]
2/21/2010 9:58:53 PM
Originally Posted By DLaw:
Here's a couple puppy pics of Zeus when he was a puppy..

http://i47.tinypic.com/67i3c7.jpg
http://i45.tinypic.com/2il29i0.jpg
http://i46.tinypic.com/29xdldu.jpg


After looking around for a couple weeks and not really finding what we want from other breeders, my wife is going to call them tomorrow and see if we can reserve one out of their next litter.

A lot of the people we talked to were really weird and sometimes wanted as much as 2k for one of their puppies

Some even talked down to us when they found out we just want one as a companion and not for livestock and showing...
DLaw  [Team Member]
2/22/2010 4:02:58 AM
Originally Posted By nsw8148:
Originally Posted By DLaw:
Here's a couple puppy pics of Zeus when he was a puppy..

http://i47.tinypic.com/67i3c7.jpg
http://i45.tinypic.com/2il29i0.jpg
http://i46.tinypic.com/29xdldu.jpg


After looking around for a couple weeks and not really finding what we want from other breeders, my wife is going to call them tomorrow and see if we can reserve one out of their next litter.

A lot of the people we talked to were really weird and sometimes wanted as much as 2k for one of their puppies

Some even talked down to us when they found out we just want one as a companion and not for livestock and showing...


Yeah Akards Acres are good people and they have good dogs..
Keep me posted with your progress,

-DLaw

humby45  [Team Member]
2/22/2010 12:58:27 PM

Originally Posted By nsw8148:
Originally Posted By DLaw:
Here's a couple puppy pics of Zeus when he was a puppy..

http://i47.tinypic.com/67i3c7.jpg
http://i45.tinypic.com/2il29i0.jpg
http://i46.tinypic.com/29xdldu.jpg


After looking around for a couple weeks and not really finding what we want from other breeders, my wife is going to call them tomorrow and see if we can reserve one out of their next litter.

A lot of the people we talked to were really weird and sometimes wanted as much as 2k for one of their puppies

Some even talked down to us when they found out we just want one as a companion and not for livestock and showing...

I think this is why my m.i.l. didn't continue on with the breeding and showing. She's got 3 Kangals now and they are perfectly happy running around the farm, although they are pretty expensive farm dogs.
DLaw  [Team Member]
2/22/2010 1:10:38 PM
Originally Posted By humby45:

Originally Posted By nsw8148:
Originally Posted By DLaw:
Here's a couple puppy pics of Zeus when he was a puppy..

http://i47.tinypic.com/67i3c7.jpg
http://i45.tinypic.com/2il29i0.jpg
http://i46.tinypic.com/29xdldu.jpg


After looking around for a couple weeks and not really finding what we want from other breeders, my wife is going to call them tomorrow and see if we can reserve one out of their next litter.

A lot of the people we talked to were really weird and sometimes wanted as much as 2k for one of their puppies

Some even talked down to us when they found out we just want one as a companion and not for livestock and showing...

I think this is why my m.i.l. didn't continue on with the breeding and showing. She's got 3 Kangals now and they are perfectly happy running around the farm, although they are pretty expensive farm dogs.


Yeah some of the rare breed dog breeders can be a little weird...
I've talked to alot of different Anatolian breeders from California and elsewhere some are really great people and some are a little strange..

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