any info on the ATI 12 ga AR other than......

this...............
http://twitter.com/Gamma762/status/8041961511

They kind of seem to be BEGGING the .guv to bring the D.D. hammer right down on their heads with this one (not that I do not like the gun. It is hot!).

That's the second time that you posted that. Do you say the same thing in every Saiga thread also? Don't give them any ideas.

There is a pic floating around of a HOT black haired chick with bolt ons holding one of the new 12 GA ARs.

LOL, if by 'hot' you mean 'used up Betty Page clone' then I would agree with you.

Sorry for the hijack, but Betty Paige had buckets more appeal than the girl with the 12GA. However, you and I both know 98% of the male population would say yes. That is what I mean by HOT. Used up just means "experienced" in my book

Shes hot enough, I like the expression....


But back to the real questions: more info!?!!?

Looks like a 308 or similar lower, we all know 12 guage is ~2.75" ... and 308s are 2.8" so maybe it will work.

If you have a long range precision upper, an other upper in 12 guage would make be great CQB missions.

I expect its the .410 upper, scaled up.

True - but the 1st time I posted it on a thread specifically about the gun. And trust me - they already know about it. Hopefully they have better things to spend time on.

OST

I can not believe know one has anymore info on this gun.

If it runs, it WILL be a game changer in 3-gun and multi-gun matches.

Or you can get this done to a saiga 12 if money isnt an issue. I believe the conversion is over 2000. Cool vid though
http://www.randrtargets.com/

the guy told me that the saiga conversion you speak of with the two brakes was 4k and they would knock 600 off if you supplied your own gun

Holy shit! I thought it was going to be .410 only...


Any info on price?

I sure hope so.

I also hope nobody sends for a clarification letter and screws it up for the rest of us.

They said they just got the guns for SHOT approved and in on friday.

I took a couple photos at the booth, I'll get them online when I get home.

The handling is similar to an AR10 with a slim handguard. They didn't want me to open it up and didn't know any details about the stock... I asked if there were active parts in the stock that would preclude shortening it. They did say they would have 5 and 15 round mags, but didn't have any 15s in yet to display at the show. Mag release and safety are in the normal AR position, I did tell them they should work on the capability to switch the charging handle to the left side. I believe it also has last round hold open. The muzzle is threaded with a thread protector, IIRC there was one in one of the "new product" displays that had a flash suppressor looking attachment. They said they were working on an adjustable choke to go on it.

Wasn't CMMG working on something like this a year or two back? I would like to some pix of this...

Word.

Is there any other info on the AR 12 Ga SGN ?

Patiently waiting for pics.......

I have been saying this for years... I hope they declair my 12g saiga a DD but they will not. Why? b/c if you read the definition and their ruling on one NFA trumps the other types, I would be able to pay my $200 and lop the barrel down to 12inches and drop in FA fire control parts perfectly legal.

How exactly do you figure that would be "perfectly legal?

15 shells is too long, 10 rounders for my saiga are the cutoff before it's time to go to a drum. 8 seems to be perfect, the russians settled on that.

MD ARMS has a working prototype for a double stack saiga 12 mag.

Agreed. even 12 rounders were too much. Waiting for the double stack. Were they going to be steel or polymer? I cant remember....

You are wrong. Unless you have mfg & SOT and/or sales to .gov., and then it's a postie.

Could be two ways,

1. (I am definitely unsure of this) He is saying that a DD is similar to an MG in that once it is an MG, the barrel length is irrelevant; so if it is a DD then FA parts don't matter because it is a DD and it is perfectly OK to drop in those parts much like putting a short barrel on a registered MG. I would like to see some documentation before I tried that.

2. He might have a registered DIAS and if it is an AR pattern he could just drop it in.

How would his Saiga be an AR pattern

I think that 922(o) would be defended tooth & nail if you sent in a test case for evaluation by the tech branch.

Why not try it with a USAS -12 that was declared a D.D. in 1994 for being unsporting?

But, as for DDs that are also MGs. the only one that comes to mind are SOME of the Lahti 20mms which are in fact fully auto (THAT must be one hell of a ride).

I already have a Red Jacket converted S12.

The only thing I am interested in that R&R makes is their safety and barrel work, I am waiting for MD Arms to bring his magwell and magazines to market.

Sorry for the crappy pocket camera photo.

I agree that a 15 round mag is excessive, and told them so. Something around 10 would probably be best IMO.

Damn, those look pretty sweet. Did you have a chance to see the 15 round mag?

that's a surefire 12 rounder hangin off that saiga, now imagine space for 3 more shells...

The folks at ATI need to listen to the 3-gunners on this project.

They have a potential winner with this project if they don't fuck it up.

Am I the only one to notice the FSB is backwards in the bottom gun?! Doesn't speak well of QC if they can't get their sales demo at the largest industry trade show in the US right...

Is there some reason that the front sight on the black one is on backwards? (Edit: beat me to it)

And am I seeing things or is the barrel sitting high in the handguard, with a piston system of some sort underneath the barrel?

I was told they were shipped straight from ATF to the show for display... probably none of the sales people at the show noticed it. It's just a clamp on front sight which ATF may well have removed in the process of inspecting and testing them for import approval. I wouldn't get wound up about that.

If I am remembering right I think they said MSRP was going to be $700 or $750.

ETA:
I'm glad someone got some use out of the Twitter I set up just for the SHOT show

I looked at and fingered the one in the "New Products" section in the basement.

All of the controls are in the same location as a "real" AR15 and function the same. The lower, pistol grip and buttstock are all one piece, polymer construction. There is some kind of "op rod" that runs under the barrel. The magazine holds something between 5 and 6 rounds- It was not marked as to number of rounds etc....

There was NO product literature available for it at all-no photos, nothing.....It is VERY interesting though.

When/If they actually become available I will buy one at a reasonable price- $700-800 or so.

Upon further look at the posted pics, it looks to me like the gun uses a typw of operation as a tube feed Remington 1100. You can see the tip of what would normally be the mag tube protruding from in front of the handguards.

If the lower, buttstock and pistol grip are all one unit I feel it deminishes the point of a gun like this. But it may just spark some aftermarket interest.

There are tons of them. Any kind of autocannon is a DD and a MG. GAU-8, Oerlikon, Bofors, etc. They are 2 stamp guns just like an MP5SD.

You are wrong.

Wrong, fully automatic DDs are still considered machine guns.



He is talking about a Saiga.

Requests for clarification don't change whether something does or does not meet a certain definition. Regardless of whether or not a FTB letter was ever written for something, the feds could charge them if they believe that they are committing a violating. Haveing an FTB ls letter only help you avoid getting into such violations.

That said, I am sure that FTB will thorougly vet that thing before it hits the market.

It does cut out a lot of flexibility along the lines of choosing a different stock and grip, but what about the internal parts? If the trigger group parts are not interchangeable with AR parts, you're stuck with the factory trigger.

It's a very interesting concept, but there's still a lot of questions I'd like to see answered before deciding to set money aside for one. And it is nice to see that the prices being tossed around are in the affordable range.

ETA: I'm sure that the one piece lower/stock/grip had a lot to do with keeping the price down.

Holy 20-rd mags!

Looks to me like it is an Akdal MKA 1919

http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/sh51-e.htm

Sure looks like it.

Looks like some one is going to have to make AL lowers for these, I am not a fan of the one piece reciever/buttstock.

Yes, that's it. Not surprising as ATI has alot of Turkish guns- the HK series, M92 clone etc....I hope this becomes available. Will be interesting to see what pricing looks like.

Not very likely. Market is minute and that assumes that they don't end up DD which would kill the import for all practical purposes. Nobody is going to tool up to produce that with that issue out there undecided......I'd be happy with it as is as an ergonomic alternative to the Saiga.

I humbly disagree.

According to what has been posted in this thread, the guns were just returned to ATI from the ATF, if they were going to be classified as DDs I doubt they would have shown them at SHOT.

That said, IMHO I doubt we will see any of the current title one mag fed shotguns reclassified as DDs. If the ATF were going to do it, they would have already done the deed to the S12s that have been converted, especially with the 20rd drums available for them. Lets not forget, the USAS12 was deemed a DD via a Presidential mandate to the ATF, the ATF used the whole sporting clause BS to justify it and nobody fought the decision. If they try that nonsense again, I will personally lead the effort to stop them.

All the ATF nonsense aside, there would be a market in the game community, add the large AR community to that as most AR guys would love to have the same ergos in a shotgun, there IS a market for the AL lowers.

Let us also remember, CMMG showed a prototype AR12 at last years SHOT. I am sure they are still working out the bugs and what not, but I think it is something they still plan on bringing to market.

And ATF originally let in Street Sweepers, the USAS and Spas 12's too.....means NOTHING until it is concretely addressed. Also, the gun has a 5 round mag- easy to get in- not a 10 which is what everyone will want-that is enough to cause problems. It's a minor miracle that the Saiga hasn't been reclassified.....one that will change I'm sure as soon as one shows up in a publicized shootout somewhere.

I would be perfectly happy with a "turn key" gun that worked with the basic ergonomics of the Ar. I'm tired as hell of sending stuff off, waiting for "specialty" parts etc....Ya, I know "it's fun" and "I want it JUST the way I want it".....I want something to shoot, that works, that I don't have to fuck with. I'm sick of everybody and their brother doing "one offs", simple is better.

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