AR15.Com Archives
 Crash at Reno Air Races
MSC182  [Team Member]
9/16/2011 3:33:36 PM EST
There's a video in the link. It looks like he just went straight in. RenoCrash
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GLHX2112  [Team Member]
9/16/2011 3:34:18 PM EST
That was horrible.
Goodn  [Team Member]
9/16/2011 3:45:37 PM EST
Originally Posted By GLHX2112:
That was horrible.


OMG! Damn! That thing went straight in! As much as I hate to say it. It is good it went straight in.
IndianJoe  [Team Member]
9/16/2011 3:54:40 PM EST
P08  [Team Member]
9/16/2011 3:55:58 PM EST
Shit! Just found out my brother and his family are at the races.
MSC182  [Team Member]
9/16/2011 4:22:59 PM EST
Hard to speculate about what happened, but witnesses said the engine didn't sound right.
avmech  [Team Member]
9/16/2011 4:45:48 PM EST
Prayers for those involved
LaRue_Tactical  [Industry Partner]
9/16/2011 4:54:23 PM EST


Damn, just damn.
Star_Scream  [Team Member]
9/16/2011 5:06:56 PM EST
damn. I was trying to get tix this year and visit my dad.

a friend of mine works RNO and was there yesterday

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
CFII  [Industry Partner]
9/16/2011 5:17:00 PM EST
Damn
MSC182  [Team Member]
9/16/2011 8:15:14 PM EST
Just found out some of my coworkers were there and close enough to get debris on them. And I'm not talking about airplane pieces.
Mryenko  [Team Member]
9/16/2011 9:40:15 PM EST


flaperon  [Team Member]
9/17/2011 12:34:21 AM EST
^^^^ Wow.

I saw one video that seemed to show a violent pitch up. Unless he had the tolerance of Sean Tucker, he may have been out in those last few seconds...
SirJames556  [Team Member]
9/17/2011 1:48:05 AM EST
I was there, the impact was about 200yds to my left. I posted in the thread in GD as well. One of the most violent crashes I have seen in the twenty five years that I have been in aviation.

Sir James...
JustinOK34  [Team Member]
9/17/2011 3:19:37 AM EST
Originally Posted By Mryenko:


http://i.imgur.com/yPwE1.jpg


Wow, that changes things significantly.
JKW  [Member]
9/17/2011 4:52:28 AM EST
Helped a friend fly his T6 to Reno, I had to come home early. Glad I missed it. Buddy is ok.
My condolences to the families.
N7333A  [Member]
9/17/2011 5:35:55 AM EST
May 2011 Sport Aviation article on The Galloping Ghost & Jimmy:
http://www.sportaviationonline.org/sportaviation/201105?pg=38#pg36
UtahShotgunner  [Team Member]
9/17/2011 5:53:09 AM EST
Originally Posted By Mryenko:


http://i.imgur.com/yPwE1.jpg


Is the fuselage buckled just forward of the tail?

In other pictures the tail wheel is in the down position.

Mryenko  [Team Member]
9/17/2011 7:43:11 AM EST
Originally Posted By UtahShotgunner:
Originally Posted By Mryenko:


http://i.imgur.com/yPwE1.jpg


Is the fuselage buckled just forward of the tail?

In other pictures the tail wheel is in the down position.



Question is, did the trim failure cause a violent pitch excursion, did the pilot over-stress the airplane, or did the airplane structurally fail prior to it's designed load limit?
mstennes  [Member]
9/17/2011 10:48:10 AM EST
Originally Posted By Mryenko:
Originally Posted By UtahShotgunner:
Originally Posted By Mryenko:


http://i.imgur.com/yPwE1.jpg


Is the fuselage buckled just forward of the tail?

In other pictures the tail wheel is in the down position.



Question is, did the trim failure cause a violent pitch excursion, did the pilot over-stress the airplane, or did the airplane structurally fail prior to it's designed load limit?

Its been so moddified, with what 5' being cut out of it to shorten it? Who knows what the rating is now?

regalrocket  [Member]
9/17/2011 10:59:29 AM EST
Shortening it will increase it load factor.

At those airspeeds it was trimmed very forward. Lose the tab and its going to climb. With his hands on the controls he probably gloc'd and pulled back even harder.
Shadowhawk  [Team Member]
9/17/2011 12:55:41 PM EST
Originally Posted By regalrocket:
Shortening it will increase it load factor.

At those airspeeds it was trimmed very forward. Lose the tab and its going to climb. With his hands on the controls he probably gloc'd and pulled back even harder.


My understanding is the wings were shortened rather than the fuselage. The news reports that I'm reading claim the aircraft pitched up, rolled inverted and then dived into the ground. From where I sit, that sounds like an accelerated stall at low altitude. The stall could have been caused by either a flight control malfunction or pilot error. A flight control malfunction may have caused an uncommanded pitch-up or the pilot could have reefed back on the stick in an attempt to get away from the ground. The massive increase in AOA regardless of airspeed could disrupt the boundary layer on the wing resulting in loss of lift. It typically happens assymetrically (one wing vs the other) resulting in a snap roll into the stalled wing with continued pitch. At low altitude its unrecoverable.

The stall characteristics of this aircraft are unknown to me because its experimental. My experience with straight wing aircraft are such that most accelerated stalls match the described flight path of the Galloping Ghost's mishap.


ETA - there are some good youtube videos of accelerated stalls particularly of the T-6/snj texan.
rushfan  [Member]
9/17/2011 1:12:47 PM EST
Apparently another airshow crashed today in WV.
regalrocket  [Member]
9/17/2011 1:48:46 PM EST
Originally Posted By Shadowhawk:
Originally Posted By regalrocket:
Shortening it will increase it load factor.

At those airspeeds it was trimmed very forward. Lose the tab and its going to climb. With his hands on the controls he probably gloc'd and pulled back even harder.


My understanding is the wings were shortened rather than the fuselage. The news reports that I'm reading claim the aircraft pitched up, rolled inverted and then dived into the ground. From where I sit, that sounds like an accelerated stall at low altitude. The stall could have been caused by either a flight control malfunction or pilot error. A flight control malfunction may have caused an uncommanded pitch-up or the pilot could have reefed back on the stick in an attempt to get away from the ground. The massive increase in AOA regardless of airspeed could disrupt the boundary layer on the wing resulting in loss of lift. It typically happens assymetrically (one wing vs the other) resulting in a snap roll into the stalled wing with continued pitch. At low altitude its unrecoverable.

The stall characteristics of this aircraft are unknown to me because its experimental. My experience with straight wing aircraft are such that most accelerated stalls match the described flight path of the Galloping Ghost's mishap.


ETA - there are some good youtube videos of accelerated stalls particularly of the T-6/snj texan.


Watch the video, it was FAR from a stall. It climbed hatd as it rolled.

The last p51 to lose a tab at the races climbed so haeprd its pilot GLOCd and came too 9,000 feet above the course.

In the close up pictures you cant see any sign of a pilot. He probably is slumped over somewhere.

It exibited no signs of a stall as it comtinuelly was maneuvering in a positive load fashion. You can tell the wings didn't unload.

At that rate of speed. A normal stall AOA of 14 or even 8 degrees would gloc anyone before it stalled.





Ps i have 2 jet types and an ATP. Not a flight sim rookie.
AZYoungGun  [Team Member]
9/17/2011 4:13:26 PM EST
Holy crap!

Prayers headed out to all those involved.
ske714  [Team Member]
9/17/2011 5:56:57 PM EST
Originally Posted By regalrocket:
Originally Posted By Shadowhawk:
Originally Posted By regalrocket:
Shortening it will increase it load factor.

At those airspeeds it was trimmed very forward. Lose the tab and its going to climb. With his hands on the controls he probably gloc'd and pulled back even harder.


My understanding is the wings were shortened rather than the fuselage. The news reports that I'm reading claim the aircraft pitched up, rolled inverted and then dived into the ground. From where I sit, that sounds like an accelerated stall at low altitude. The stall could have been caused by either a flight control malfunction or pilot error. A flight control malfunction may have caused an uncommanded pitch-up or the pilot could have reefed back on the stick in an attempt to get away from the ground. The massive increase in AOA regardless of airspeed could disrupt the boundary layer on the wing resulting in loss of lift. It typically happens assymetrically (one wing vs the other) resulting in a snap roll into the stalled wing with continued pitch. At low altitude its unrecoverable.

The stall characteristics of this aircraft are unknown to me because its experimental. My experience with straight wing aircraft are such that most accelerated stalls match the described flight path of the Galloping Ghost's mishap.


ETA - there are some good youtube videos of accelerated stalls particularly of the T-6/snj texan.


Watch the video, it was FAR from a stall. It climbed hatd as it rolled.

The last p51 to lose a tab at the races climbed so haeprd its pilot GLOCd and came too 9,000 feet above the course.

In the close up pictures you cant see any sign of a pilot. He probably is slumped over somewhere.

It exibited no signs of a stall as it comtinuelly was maneuvering in a positive load fashion. You can tell the wings didn't unload.

At that rate of speed. A normal stall AOA of 14 or even 8 degrees would gloc anyone before it stalled.





Ps i have 2 jet types and an ATP. Not a flight sim rookie.


With the picture of the trim tab hanging off, I wonder if his elevator fluttered.
tangeant  [Team Member]
9/17/2011 5:59:52 PM EST
You can see the back of his white helmet in the whole airplane top view pic with the missing trim tab. He was lights out for the 3-4 seconds from the pull up to impact hunched over in cockpit. In the other pics from the side you cant see a head in the canopy at all.

From the audio the engine was running fine.
ske714  [Team Member]
9/18/2011 5:43:30 AM EST
Here's a link describing what happened when Voodoo Chile lost his trim tab...

Link

"Apparently, the left elevator trim tab came off the airplane at speed, causing the bird to abruptly pitch up, subjecting driver Hannah to over 10 G's of deceleration forces, and causing him to lose conciousness! When he came to, the raceplane had climbed to over 9,000 feet of altitude. A shaken Hannah regained control and brought Voodoo in for a safe landing."
PilotMacGruber  [Member]
9/18/2011 7:27:27 AM EST
Originally Posted By regalrocket:
Originally Posted By Shadowhawk:
Originally Posted By regalrocket:
Shortening it will increase it load factor.

At those airspeeds it was trimmed very forward. Lose the tab and its going to climb. With his hands on the controls he probably gloc'd and pulled back even harder.


My understanding is the wings were shortened rather than the fuselage. The news reports that I'm reading claim the aircraft pitched up, rolled inverted and then dived into the ground. From where I sit, that sounds like an accelerated stall at low altitude. The stall could have been caused by either a flight control malfunction or pilot error. A flight control malfunction may have caused an uncommanded pitch-up or the pilot could have reefed back on the stick in an attempt to get away from the ground. The massive increase in AOA regardless of airspeed could disrupt the boundary layer on the wing resulting in loss of lift. It typically happens assymetrically (one wing vs the other) resulting in a snap roll into the stalled wing with continued pitch. At low altitude its unrecoverable.

The stall characteristics of this aircraft are unknown to me because its experimental. My experience with straight wing aircraft are such that most accelerated stalls match the described flight path of the Galloping Ghost's mishap.


ETA - there are some good youtube videos of accelerated stalls particularly of the T-6/snj texan.


Watch the video, it was FAR from a stall. It climbed hatd as it rolled.

The last p51 to lose a tab at the races climbed so haeprd its pilot GLOCd and came too 9,000 feet above the course.

In the close up pictures you cant see any sign of a pilot. He probably is slumped over somewhere.

It exibited no signs of a stall as it comtinuelly was maneuvering in a positive load fashion. You can tell the wings didn't unload.

At that rate of speed. A normal stall AOA of 14 or even 8 degrees would gloc anyone before it stalled.





Ps i have 2 jet types and an ATP. Not a flight sim rookie.


So do you think it could be possible to G lock AND accelerate stall causing the action in the videos
riggins  [Team Member]
9/18/2011 10:38:42 AM EST
More information about this tragic accident:

Questions were raised, too, about modifications to the plane made to make the plane more aerodynamic so it would go faster without a bigger engine. In a podcast uploaded to YouTube in June, Leeward said major changes were made to the plane before this year's race. He said his crew cut five feet off each wing and shortened the ailerons — the back edge of the main wings used to control balance — to 32 inches, down from about 60 inches.

"I know the speed. I know it'll do the speed. The systems aren't proven yet. We think they're going to be OK," Leeward said.

Link to entire article.
regalrocket  [Member]
9/18/2011 3:34:30 PM EST
I think aerodynamic changes to the horizontal stabilizer to keep from relying on huge trim tap forces to fight the tails aerodynamic forces at speed.

This is why jets trim the way i described, and not via huge stressed trim tabs. At least on the faster stuff. Slower jets still have trim tabs, but there built stronger than the landing gear.



If you want to see a textbook case of an accelerated stall look at the redbull near crash due to an accelerated stall. Stalls result in loss of lift as you know. You dont preform a super tight barrel roll at 400+ knots with a wing not producing lift.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRxPsjFSCnI @ 1:09

Some rolls can be wing stall Induced. Not that particular type that happened in reno.
regalrocket  [Member]
9/19/2011 3:43:19 AM EST
Originally Posted By riggins:
More information about this tragic accident:

Questions were raised, too, about modifications to the plane made to make the plane more aerodynamic so it would go faster without a bigger engine. In a podcast uploaded to YouTube in June, Leeward said major changes were made to the plane before this year's race. He said his crew cut five feet off each wing and shortened the ailerons — the back edge of the main wings used to control balance — to 32 inches, down from about 60 inches.

"I know the speed. I know it'll do the speed. The systems aren't proven yet. We think they're going to be OK," Leeward said.

Link to entire article.


The plane can take the wing load. But I believe that they had soo much added forward trim pressure that the tab WAS going to fail at some point in time. The uncontrollable pitch up shows how much pressure that tab was holding.
Shadowhawk  [Team Member]
9/19/2011 8:21:05 AM EST
Originally Posted By regalrocket:
Originally Posted By riggins:
More information about this tragic accident:

Questions were raised, too, about modifications to the plane made to make the plane more aerodynamic so it would go faster without a bigger engine. In a podcast uploaded to YouTube in June, Leeward said major changes were made to the plane before this year's race. He said his crew cut five feet off each wing and shortened the ailerons — the back edge of the main wings used to control balance — to 32 inches, down from about 60 inches.

"I know the speed. I know it'll do the speed. The systems aren't proven yet. We think they're going to be OK," Leeward said.

Link to entire article.


The plane can take the wing load. But I believe that they had soo much added forward trim pressure that the tab WAS going to fail at some point in time. The uncontrollable pitch up shows how much pressure that tab was holding.


Pretty much agree that the trim tab was pushed beyond its designed load limit. Thats the problem with modifying aircraft for high performance rather than building something from scratch with good engineering data.

Now that I've seen more video I concur that it was more likely a G-LOC incident OR the stick forces exceeded pilots ability to compensate resulting in an uncontrollable flight into terrain. The accelerated stall scenario is still plausible as the wing flight characteristics are still pretty much an unknown but an accelerated stall at that airspeed would have probably have produced a higher roll rate.

Thats just my guess but it seems reasonable.
P08  [Team Member]
9/19/2011 10:07:12 AM EST
Was just talking to my brother who was there and was actually 500 feet from the crash! He said that the plane was traveling about 500 mph when it pitched up and for a second was heading towards him and his family, then nosed over into the ground. He guesses that the pilot broke his neck with the initial pull up. He figures the pilot was exposed to at least 20 g's! He was running and dodging shrapnel after the impact. He does know what he is talking about as well as he is a P51 pilot as well.
riggins  [Team Member]
9/19/2011 3:28:24 PM EST
Originally Posted By P08:
Was just talking to my brother who was there and was actually 500 feet from the crash! He said that the plane was traveling about 500 mph when it pitched up and for a second was heading towards him and his family, then nosed over into the ground. He guesses that the pilot broke his neck with the initial pull up. He figures the pilot was exposed to at least 20 g's! He was running and dodging shrapnel after the impact. He does know what he is talking about as well as he is a P51 pilot as well.


Thank God that your brother and family are all ok.

TheRedGoat  [Team Member]
9/19/2011 3:34:51 PM EST
Just a tag to keep up.

Interesting thread fellas.

TRG
Goodn  [Team Member]
9/19/2011 4:29:17 PM EST
Originally Posted By P08:
Was just talking to my brother who was there and was actually 500 feet from the crash! He said that the plane was traveling about 500 mph when it pitched up and for a second was heading towards him and his family, then nosed over into the ground. He guesses that the pilot broke his neck with the initial pull up. He figures the pilot was exposed to at least 20 g's! He was running and dodging shrapnel after the impact. He does know what he is talking about as well as he is a P51 pilot as well.


Judging by the newest video that i saw today, I have no doubt he was subjected to some massive G's. I have no doubt he was out.

I do think he intentionally rolled the plane out when you see the aileron inputs in the videos (maybe to try to avoid the crowd?), after that, I think he was lights out.
P08  [Team Member]
9/19/2011 6:35:24 PM EST

Originally Posted By riggins:
Originally Posted By P08:
Was just talking to my brother who was there and was actually 500 feet from the crash! He said that the plane was traveling about 500 mph when it pitched up and for a second was heading towards him and his family, then nosed over into the ground. He guesses that the pilot broke his neck with the initial pull up. He figures the pilot was exposed to at least 20 g's! He was running and dodging shrapnel after the impact. He does know what he is talking about as well as he is a P51 pilot as well.


Thank God that your brother and family are all ok.

Thanks, he was sitting opposite from the camera view. His daughter was crying and did not want to get in the airplane to fly home. The son who is 16 he said was unfazed, but I think there is something going through his head.

TheRedGoat  [Team Member]
9/20/2011 4:52:51 AM EST
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1232370_The_last_4_seconds_of_Galloping_Ghost_captured_by_photographer_at_Reno_race.html

TRG
Shadowhawk  [Team Member]
9/20/2011 12:05:16 PM EST
New working theory is that his seat also broke due to G loading. I would definitely agree with this as I had a seat malfunction under g load before and that was only 3-4g vice 8-10+.

jestertoo  [Team Member]
9/20/2011 12:43:32 PM EST
Originally Posted By Shadowhawk:
New working theory is that his seat also broke due to G loading. I would definitely agree with this as I had a seat malfunction under g load before and that was only 3-4g vice 8-10+.



Maybe his seat broke, but more than likely, this.....

Originally Posted By TCPilot:
A couple of factors about the crash (some of you guys need to work on your aerodaynmics knowledge):

To get maximum airspeed, these airplanes are run at full-aft CG, which is inherently much less controllable than when keeping the CG in the envelope
Breaking of the trim tab would most likely result in the airplane going to full-nose-up trim. He would have had some rudder input as well for his left pattern. Incidentally, this is pretty much how you snap roll an airplane, which is what appears to have happened, unsurprisingly.
3,500 HP.....8,000+ lbs. of airplane.....full aft CG.....he would have had to be able to bench press about 350 lbs., in one second, to get the airplane under control. His age is not a factor. Even you guys who CAN bench that much probably would have failed.
As far as pictures of him 'slumped forward'...under that many G's, he'd be pasted to the back of the seat or, like Bob Hannah, the floor of the airplane. In one of the pictures you can clearly see the canopy with no visible pilot. Most likely he was unconscious.


This exact mechanical failure has happened before, with a much luckier result. Read about it happening to Hurricane Bob Hannah here: Voodoo Incident

Bob Hannah was an exceptional MX racer and was in superb shape, and very nearly lost his life. He was lucky that his snap roll resulted in a vertical climb instead of a nose down into the ground.

/TCP
Kalahnikid  [Team Member]
9/20/2011 1:13:05 PM EST
A P51 crash killed the Cleveland Air Races...wonder if it will happen again?
Kekoa  [Member]
9/20/2011 1:54:12 PM EST
Not sure if this video has been posted.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2011/09/20/von-reno-air-crash-new.kgw?hpt=hp_t2
commandowink  [Team Member]
9/20/2011 2:14:41 PM EST
^^^ woah.
ske714  [Team Member]
9/20/2011 2:21:19 PM EST
How was there no fireball? That has to be a small miracle.
TheRedGoat  [Team Member]
9/20/2011 2:25:39 PM EST
Originally Posted By ske714:
How was there no fireball? That has to be a small miracle.


Fuel additives, or foam was posted earlier.

TRG
ske714  [Team Member]
9/20/2011 2:35:56 PM EST
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Originally Posted By ske714:
How was there no fireball? That has to be a small miracle.


Fuel additives, or foam was posted earlier.

TRG


Good plan.
Goodn  [Team Member]
9/20/2011 3:34:37 PM EST
That plane was pulling easy 10 plus G's when it rolled in.....

Looks from that angle like he was hoping to roll out and over the grand stands.
jestertoo  [Team Member]
9/21/2011 12:45:32 PM EST
First responder audio
P08  [Team Member]
9/21/2011 2:34:25 PM EST
Found out from my brother that they found the telemetry box from the plane. He was told that the plane pulled 22.2 G's@ 500 mph, looped up and slowed to 375 and back to 500 when it hit the ground. 22 G's will kill a person fast!
Goodn  [Team Member]
9/21/2011 3:53:20 PM EST
Originally Posted By P08:
Found out from my brother that they found the telemetry box from the plane. He was told that the plane pulled 22.2 G's@ 500 mph, looped up and slowed to 375 and back to 500 when it hit the ground. 22 G's will kill a person fast!



Damn! I knew he was pulling way more than 10 G's as tight as he was pulling..... But over 22! FUUUUUUUUUU....... he was lights out.



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